Expected Arcanist "adjustements"

Elyu · January 30

Now before you take out the pitchforks, let me explain.

This post will be specific to PvE DPS only

As many others on these forums have pointed out previously (including a huge amount of data from addons), Arcanist massively overperforms in PvE dps.

Upsides: logical progression for new players - make use of the crutch system and you can pull decent dps numbers
Downsides: Skilled/experienced players will always pick this class as "THE" dps class - all other classes are just there to provide unique buffs to help the arcanist pull even higher dps numbers.

Reasons why arcanist needs to change: 3 class morphs that massively overperform to the point of rendering all other skills in the game obsolete. Here's some suggestions for POSSIBLE changes (with the idea being to force a choice between damage OR utility):

Inspired scholarship: Passive major brutality + sorcery on both bars merely for slotting it + generates crux + acts as a mini "runecarvers blaze" set when activated. Combined with the aoe nature of fatecarver this is the equivalent of having an extra 5 piece set for the price of 1 skill slot. (EDIT: @CP5 pointed out this is not how it functions in game)
Suggested change(s) (some combination of the below): Either all classes have access to passive brutality sorcery (necro I'm looking at you) or none do (else what's the point of dks igneous weapons?). Either remove this component of the skill entirely, or make it specific to the "recuperative treatise" morph (which becomes a more "utility" morph).
Change 2: Remove the crux generation component or move to recuperative treatise
Change 3: have the extra damage apply to only a single target (so CAN be procced by fatecarver, but only, say, closest target).
(EDIT: see previous edit, skill already functions close to my suggested version in game, only change would be balance between all classes regarding access to major brut/sorc)

Cephaliarc's Flail: Decent base damage + execute scaling + generates crux + AoE root + self-heal even if no enemies are hit!
Arcanist already has a damaging crux generator in the form of runeblades, but due to the crux generation of the flail morph, this skill is rendered completely obsolete, as is the other morph of flail ("Tentacular dread").
Change this skill to consume crux instead of generate crux
Make heal only proc if an enemy is hit
Remove the unique 5% damage modifier from this morph
Move the increased base damage of the skill (per crux consumed) from Tentacular Dread to Cephaliarc's Flail
Move the root effect from Cephaliarc's Flail to Tentacular Dread
Thus Tentacular Dread remains the "set them up for more damage in the future" morph, while Cephaliarc's Flail becomes the "burst damage with extra utility" morph

Pragmatic fatecarver: Decent damage shield + a single-target spammable that also operates as an AoE, with no loss of damage however many targets it hits, and has an impressive 22m range + has interrupt immunity
Main arcanist damage skill / spammable. Like flail, has too many good things in this one morph to ever choose the other morph.

Changes: Make this the ulity morph.
Remove increased damage from crux consumed (this morph ONLY).
New skill effect - 0 crux consumed, ability only does damage. 1 crux consumed, ability also snares enemies (moved from Exhausting Fatecarver morph). 2 Crux consumed, also gains interrupt immunity. 3 Crux consumed, also gains damage shield.
(Exhausting Fatevarver: snare moved to pragmatic fatecarver, ability otherwise remains unchanged)

Curious to see how well these suggestions will be taken by rest of the community....

Uvi_AUT · January 30

You didnt propose any changes to other skills to get another rotation or a more engaging styl of gameplay rolling, just nerfs to the existing gameplay.

Elyu · January 31

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

You didnt propose any changes to other skills to get another rotation or a more engaging styl of gameplay rolling, just nerfs to the existing gameplay.

Fair enough. My suggestion was just a starting point to separate out the stacked utility of certain morphs to force a choice between utility or damage.
However the nature of fatecarver as the class main spammable makes the Arcanist have the most unique class identity in ESO (in the present).

I do believe my suggestions would encourage Arcanist players to utilise more skills in more interesting rotations in order to maintain the same level of damage efficiency.

My suggestions are a "solutions first" mindset - you can disagree with the suggestions, but at least offer suggestions of your own

J18696 · January 31

Exactly how to you envision a more interesting rotation to look for arcanist because as things stand unless they drastically change/pretty much revamp the entire arc dmg kit generating 3 crux and beaming is the only optimal way to output dmg if you made flail consume crux I can almost certainly see them just not using the skill anymore

Galeriano · January 31

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

You didnt propose any changes to other skills to get another rotation or a more engaging styl of gameplay rolling, just nerfs to the existing gameplay.

The thing is there already exist different rotation within the class resolving around runeblades and tentacular dread but because flail and beam are so overperforming and producing so much more numbers than anything else that other playstyle is not being picked up by people.

That other playstyle puts arcanist DPS at the level similar to other classes but nobody will pick it up as long as flail+beam puts arcanist above the others.

Elyu · January 31

Galeriano wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

You didnt propose any changes to other skills to get another rotation or a more engaging styl of gameplay rolling, just nerfs to the existing gameplay.

The thing is there already exist different rotation within the class resolving around runeblades and tentacular dread but because flal and beam are so overperforming and producing so much more numbers than anything else that other playstyle is not being picked up by people.

That other playstyle puts arcanist DPS at the level similar to other classes but nobody will pick it up as long as flail+beam puts arcanist above the others.

This exactly my point! Thank you wording it.

Entaro · January 31

They would need to adjust the morphs somehow, but perhaps if they made an alternate arcanist playstyle based on the runeblades builder and a tentacular dread spender that was a more traditional 110-120 CPM playstyle it would make people happy.

Uvi_AUT · February 1

Elyu wrote: »

My suggestions are a "solutions first" mindset - you can disagree with the suggestions, but at least offer suggestions of your own

You where the one starting the Thread, but fair enough.

There needs to be a possibility to interrupt Fatecarver without loosing too much DPS.
That way you can roll dodge and block without it being a major hassle.
Or make one Morph make Fatecarver stronger but 2 seconds shorter. Or put a Timer on it. Or make other Skills be stronger for consuming Crux so you dont have to use it on the one skill.

There should be ways to generate Crux with Non-Arcanistabilities. As it stands there is no reason for Arcanists to use any of the Weapon/World/Guild-Skillines. That makes them uniquely boring when it comes to build-diversity.

Galeriano wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

You didnt propose any changes to other skills to get another rotation or a more engaging styl of gameplay rolling, just nerfs to the existing gameplay.

The thing is there already exist different rotation within the class resolving around runeblades and tentacular dread but because flal and beam are so overperforming and producing so much more numbers than anything else that other playstyle is not being picked up by people.

That other playstyle puts arcanist DPS at the level similar to other classes but nobody will pick it up as long as flail+beam puts arcanist above the others.

That would still be the same Playstyle but with another Spammable. What about making a playstyle that utilized Weaponskills or Guildskills? It would still retaion the Fatecarver-Arcanist but with a fair bit of choice (like most other classes have).

J18696 · February 1

Even the builds using runeblades don't use the crux consuming flail because anything that reduces the amount of time spent beaming at full crux is a huge dmg loss that whole concept is like flawed with the current toolkit and how we generate crux currently

thegreeneso · February 1

Why do people dislike when classes are strong so much? I would rather have classes that have interesting mechanics and unique strengths, instead of turning Arcanist into yet another boring class where most of your hotbar is filled with non-class skills.

Class skills should be stronger than the stuff that is available to everyone, otherwise classes are pointless. The only problem here is that other classes are not as strong they should be.

Kalle_Demos · February 1

thegreeneso wrote: »

Why do people dislike when classes are strong so much? I would rather have classes that have interesting mechanics and unique strengths, instead of turning Arcanist into yet another boring class where most of your hotbar is filled with non-class skills.

Class skills should be stronger than the stuff that is available to everyone, otherwise classes are pointless. The only problem here is that other classes are not as strong they should be.

Exactly this. Classes should have different strengths and weaknesses. Otherwise what is the point? The devs are taking the correct approach with the Arcanist, careful adjustments. But there are some contrarians that won't be satisfied until the new fun and shiny thing is in the dirt, never considering that everything would be better if all our toys were clean and shiny. It's Necro all over again. When it was released there was a never ending cry to nerf it even though it wasn't actually 'overpowered' just new and popular. Now look where we are.

Elyu · February 2

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Elyu wrote: »

My suggestions are a "solutions first" mindset - you can disagree with the suggestions, but at least offer suggestions of your own

You where the one starting the Thread, but fair enough.

There needs to be a possibility to interrupt Fatecarver without loosing too much DPS.
That way you can roll dodge and block without it being a major hassle.
Or make one Morph make Fatecarver stronger but 2 seconds shorter. Or put a Timer on it. Or make other Skills be stronger for consuming Crux so you dont have to use it on the one skill.

There should be ways to generate Crux with Non-Arcanistabilities. As it stands there is no reason for Arcanists to use any of the Weapon/World/Guild-Skillines. That makes them uniquely boring when it comes to build-diversity.

Galeriano wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

You didnt propose any changes to other skills to get another rotation or a more engaging styl of gameplay rolling, just nerfs to the existing gameplay.

The thing is there already exist different rotation within the class resolving around runeblades and tentacular dread but because flal and beam are so overperforming and producing so much more numbers than anything else that other playstyle is not being picked up by people.

That other playstyle puts arcanist DPS at the level similar to other classes but nobody will pick it up as long as flail+beam puts arcanist above the others.

That would still be the same Playstyle but with another Spammable. What about making a playstyle that utilized Weaponskills or Guildskills? It would still retaion the Fatecarver-Arcanist but with a fair bit of choice (like most other classes have).

Thank you for responding, and good suggestions too!
How about if fatecarver consumed crux gradually over the course of the channel, instead of all at start, so you could spend less time recovering from an interrupted beam?

I certainly agree that the crux system pushes Arcanist players into using only certain skills because of the crux component (e.g. cruxweaver armour over unbreakable fate, or chakram of destiny over tidal chakram).

I think a major part of my complaint is that the more "interesting" playstyles are disincentivised because they require more complicated and active "crux management" - time you could be spending focussed more on your main role, rather than a combat minigame.

Although:

thegreeneso wrote: »

Why do people dislike when classes are strong so much? I would rather have classes that have interesting mechanics and unique strengths, instead of turning Arcanist into yet another boring class where most of your hotbar is filled with non-class skills.

^^this is exactly my complaint for all the OTHER classes in ESO at the moment (specifically for PvE dps) - they all feel/play exactly the same.
So even if Arcanist is OP, at least it feels/plays differently. (although hybridization still a huge problem, there is no "stam" or "mag" arcanist distinctions, the 2 play exactly the same regardless of which way you spec).

Vahndamme · February 3

I read OP's post and I say no. The arcanist currently on U40 has a fun gameplay.. it shouldn't be touched, the way it's played that is. Sure tweak some numbers, change some powers around so that it still fits in the build or make more builds viable so that not everybody is pidgeonholed into one particular build.. But the general gameplay / rotation is there and imo arcanist is so succesful because it is fun, it has power and most of all it has class identity.. The latter is something where many classes fail at. Ranging from dead skills to dead passives to no cohesion to whatever.. So imo, it's a nay, what you're proposing totally kills the rotation and the gameplay of an arcanist as we know it and probably will make everybody slot rapid strikes on an arcanist and hit high numbers but no class identity..

Uvi_AUT · February 3

Vahndamme wrote: »

I read OP's post and I say no. The arcanist currently on U40 has a fun gameplay.. it shouldn't be touched, the way it's played that is.

You arent bothered by the fact that Arcanist is the only class in the game that cant choose any Weaponskills because they have to generate Crux? No Rapid Strikes, or Aim, or Carve or Brutal Smash, or Psijic order or anything.
Make all the Spammables generate Crux or make Cruse generate automatically every second would not change the way the class plays, just give it a little more options.

Vahndamme · February 4

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Vahndamme wrote: »

I read OP's post and I say no. The arcanist currently on U40 has a fun gameplay.. it shouldn't be touched, the way it's played that is.

You arent bothered by the fact that Arcanist is the only class in the game that cant choose any Weaponskills because they have to generate Crux? No Rapid Strikes, or Aim, or Carve or Brutal Smash, or Psijic order or anything.
Make all the Spammables generate Crux or make Cruse generate automatically every second would not change the way the class plays, just give it a little more options.

Not really.. as majority of other classes right now are kinda best of with anything like Rapid Strikes.. (talking PvE here only)

They could make a few abilities considered spammables to also generate crux as part of some ability that needs to be activated. To cultivate more options but honestly I'm happy I can play a class that doesn't need e.g. Rapid Strikes to hit the ceiling.. 😅

Araneae6537 · February 4

1) My primary suggestion is to improve other classes so they can pull strong DPS in different ways and different classes for different enemies or situations.

For instance, if necro is to excel at DoTs and minions, the class needs stronger/more useful minions and a LOT more DoTs.

I like the improvements to warden to have options to rely on animal summons or frost damage, but more may be needed to be viable or bring something unique as DPS in trials.

There are finally some boons for playing a sorc not reliant on pets, but more is needed — so many skills in the storm tree could be fun and powerful alternatives yet most, including the Overload ultimate, are obsolete and vastly underperform in any content.

2) But also, as much as I am enjoying my arcanist, your suggestions do seem reasonable and I have wondered at some morphs doing absolutely everything with no downside. Unless I’m mistaken, Pragmatic Fatecarver does as much damage as the Exhausting morph, but shouldn’t it do less with added benefits such as shield? Snaring enemies isn’t a great benefit in PvE and might interfere with the tank. I would make the one morph pure max damage and reduce the damage on Pragmatic (as I think is being done next patch?) and keep the benefits of shield and interrupt immunity. Likewise Cephiliarch’s Flail really does too much so that Runeblades and Tentacular Dread are not a viable alternative.

AlterBlika · February 4

Araneae6537 wrote: »

1) My primary suggestion is to improve other classes so they can pull strong DPS in different ways and different classes for different enemies or situations.

Buffing all other classes instead of nerfing one will just lead to another powercreep, like we don't have too much of it already

Araneae6537 · February 4

AlterBlika wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

1) My primary suggestion is to improve other classes so they can pull strong DPS in different ways and different classes for different enemies or situations.

Buffing all other classes instead of nerfing one will just lead to another powercreep, like we don't have too much of it already

I didn’t mean ALL other classes — from all I’ve heard, DK is in a good spot — but those that lack options (sorc) or are underperforming (necro). But must also acknowledge that these particular arcanist skills could also use adjustments so that one morph wasn’t better in nearly all respects and situations.

CP5 · February 4

I just wanted to make a comment to clear up some information in this thread.

Inspired scholarship already has a 3s cooldown, universally. It only ever does its damage off cooldown, and once it does the damage once to a single target it goes back on cooldown, it is not anywhere near runecarver's blaze in terms of damage output or number of damage procs, so while the easy source of major buffs is noteworthy, the morph is mainly about getting a crux during your beam channel to lower the time you go without channeling the beam, since the damage is just there to generate the crux. Change 3 you suggested is already how it works, and removing the crux generation removes the main point of casting the skill.

Flail is overtuned, but a more major overhaul of the other morph, combined with a buff to runeblades would be needed to make anything but 3 crux to beam attractive for arcanist dps, and any nerfs to this skill will simply result in it being replaced with runeblades purely as a crux generator and nothing else. The suggestions you gave would simply leave both morphs unused, as spending time to get 3 crux to apply an empowered ink, or using 3 crux to make flail hit harder is not enough to make them a more attractive way to spend crux.

The nerf to pragmatic fatecarver on pts is needed, since that shield makes the skill far too forgiving to use. But your suggestion to halve its damage would simply leave it an unused morph. The snare I don't see anyone taking note of, and the interrupt resistance is tied to the damage shield as is, so the suggestion to uncouple the two leaves the skill in the odd state that 'if they have the interrupt immunity then they'll have it for the full channel,' whereas the current morph requires you to try to keep the shield up by moving to avoid damage, since if the shield falls then you can be interrupted. Plus in pve, especially in the archive, any mob that does a micro-stagger on you interrupts the beam regardless of this morphs perk, so while the skill will likely need more attention after the next patch goes live, these changes overall would simply butcher what the class has going for it, pushing it to a weaker but equally one-dimensional position.

acastanza_ESO · February 5

If I had to propose one thing that would reign in the overperformance of arcanist, I would scale the damage of beam by number of enemies hit (e.g. first enemy hit gets 100% of each tick, second 90%, 3rd 80%, down to a floor at like 40%, with the game deciding target priority somehow maybe by tab-targeting first then intelligently by Max Health).
Or maybe apply a gradient to the damage depending on the distance from the caster so that if you want the full damage of beam you have to be within melee range, then it scales down the further you are away.

Just something to address how crazy it is that arcanists can just melt through stacks of enemies for full damage with almost no effort.

francesinhalover · February 5

Lets nerf and rework arcanist so it's awfull to play like the other classes.

acastanza_ESO · February 5

francesinhalover wrote: »

Lets nerf and rework arcanist so it's awfull to play like the other classes.

The other classes aren't "awful" to play, that's absolutely ridiculous.

Arcanist's current design is such that it completely trivializes the existence of ads in fights in a way that's completely out of line with ESO's intended game design. Yes, AOE damage is a thing, that's all well and good, but AOE damage that does more than most single-target skills with basically no drawbacks that only one class can access shouldn't be, and honestly, should never have been. And I'm saying this as someone who enjoys playing Arcanist, but I want to be able to play other classes too in content without them being just plain worse for the group.

Sure, on a trial dummy a Stamsorc can parse 140k and an Arcanist can only parse 130k, but the second you have two targets the Arcanist is parsing 260k and the Stamsorc is parsing.... 140k. That is not balanced.

SIow · February 5

francesinhalover wrote: »

Lets nerf and rework arcanist so it's awfull to play like the other classes.

Class is way too broken

Uvi_AUT · February 6

SIow wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

Lets nerf and rework arcanist so it's awfull to play like the other classes.

Class is way too broken

You mean in a bad way right? Like it need some kind of rework to make it a less boring / to give it at least some choice with skills.

RaptorRodeoGod · February 6

I agree with some of your suggestions and not others. There's already a kind of limited number of ways to generate crux, so killing crux generation even further seems counter intuitive to wanting alternative styles of play.

I personally think all classes should have a major brutality/sorcery buff, and if they have it done such that the skill passively grants is for the user, and have an active effect to incentivize actually casting the skill. I.e. Sorc gets passive major brutality/sorcery for slotting Crit Surge, but only gets the healing if they cast it. Or DK passively gets it from their skill, but casting it will grant Empower+maybe something to sweeten the deal. Bring other classes major brutality to the standard of Arcanist's basically.

I think Cephaliarch's Flail's utility should probably be more distributed throughout the class kit, rather than stacked on one skill. Maybe move the immobilize and the heal to other skills. I think having one morph of Abyssal Impact create, and one consume crux is good for build diversity.

Tentacular Dread should be improved as a "delayed burst" skill, maybe by removing the immobilize, or some of the damage multiplier to give it more upfront burst. It's similar enough to Blastbones in style such that, with max crux, I think it should do similar damage. I think Runeblade+Tentacular Dread or Runeblade spam should perform up to par with Fatecarver.

In most content, I'm continually stunned out of Pragmatic Fatecarver, and the class does not have a mobile HoT, so I don't really see an issue keeping the interrupt immunity or shield, especially now that it's HP capped. Maybe remove the cost reduction for crux cast if anything. I could see an argument made for tying the shield strength to crux consumed too.

As a side note, I'd like to see Apocryphal Gate made less clunky so someone could potentially use that as a wonky crux generator. I tried it, but it feels so bad lol.

Though, I don't think my, or your, suggestions matter, because the Devs would probably rather see a well defined problem to create their own solution for, rather than use some random player's suggestion.

Pixiepumpkin · February 10

The nerf to the class may be warranted for stamina, but its completely unwarranted for magicka.

I propost that magicka based arcanists get 28 yards on fatecarver and stamina 15 yards if the damage nerf is to go through.

In PVP, magicka arcanists already get eaten through with players tanking fatecarver. When players tank an "OP" ability like fatecarver, its not as "OP" as is suggested (not on the magicka front at least).

Most people play magicka to do so at range/for a ranged class. Allowing a 28 yard fatecarver for magicka would allow for this.