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In Defense of the Tormentor Nerf
BejaProphet
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I spoke on this briefly in another thread, but it resulted in both sides talking past one another. To understand why one would defend this decision would take a more thoroughly articulated post. I would ask any reader to first attempt to understand my thoughts, and only then attempt to respond to them. I mean, that's what you are always suppose to do, right?
I am not saying I wanted the developers to do this. Whether this was a waist of their time and effort is another question. Some say they have way more important things they should have been working on. That may well be true. I'm just saying that having spent the time to address it, they made the right call. So here goes...
Why my opinion ought to be heard...
I'm not saying anybody ought to agree with me, but this is why it would be worth your time to hear me out. I've been tanking in ESO from the first moment I started making an actual role other than just wandering through overland putting stuff on. Most of those years have been dragon knight. Tanking has been the sole thing that has made me unable to leave ESO despite brief departures. Dang Cyberpunk 2077 got good! I tank, and I love to tank vet DLC dungeons using the dungeon finder. I get excited when it gives me a vet DLC I haven't tanked that day. But for the last two years I have specifically lived and breathed tanking on a templar using tormentors. This is not something I've just dabbled in. This is my thing, seeing just what can be accomplished on a Templar with this specific set. And I'm not using it as a crutch because I'm a bad tank and need the help. Just the other day I used random group finder to succeed at a speedrun, HM of Depths of Malatar with a bunch of strangers using my dragon knight who obviously has no AOE taunt. No Tormentor. So I know how to tank without it. And I know what can be done with it.
The ESO environment that is horribly complicating this question...
Over a decade we have developed a very warped culture regarding META. There is a minority of players in this game for which all content whatsoever is completely trivial. I don't simply mean overland content but almost everything. The hard truth is this...probably about 98% of the game is not designed with you in mind. The developers throw in a little bit of content specifically for you somewhat regularly while designing the vast majority of the game to players that are not on that level. However, it is far more common for streamers and other influencers to be part of that group that is competing in things like score pushing vet trials and arenas, having pre-made groups that will tackle vet DLC dungeon trifectas within a week of release. This creates a peculiar public square when it comes to ESO. Rather than speaking in terms of the average player's experience. Everything, and everyone, is being evaluated for its worth solely in terms of that tiny slice of content that is made for the most elite ESO players. As a result, the concept of something being overpowered is also evaluated entirely on how it performs in those environments. Perhaps this culture in the "ESO public square" is inevitable. But here is the point. It is not how the developers are thinking. And as long as we evaluate everything in this way, the developers are going to appear to us like a mysterious bunch of bullies who seem to be asking, "Who's day can we ruin this patch?"
How do we evaluate something being overpowered?
There are a few good answers to this. For example if something is so good it begins to destroy diversity then it is probably over power and needs a nerf. But I want to put forward an additional way something is qualified as overpowered. And this is what will let us see why the Tormentor nerf was the right call.
Something is overpowered if it trivializes something the developers meant to be challenging.
If something is designed by the developers to be engaging, and an item or power is inserted which unintentionally trivializes that content, then that thing is overpowered by definition. Or that is my assertion. So how does this apply to the Tormentor set? Very directly. The developers are constantly hand crafting dungeons, trying to make them dynamic and engaging for every role of the group. Say they succeed or suck, I don't care. That is what they are aiming at constantly. After nearly a decade of dungeon tanking we could talk about specifics for a long time. But let me put out one familiar scenario to dungeon tanks. How many times do the developers set up a dungeon with 6-8 creatures in front of you...and lo and behold just as you get that crew under control here comes reinforcements. Sometimes its two adds coming around the corner, other times that second group that was on the other side of the room is programed to rush in just at the right time, or when you kill a couple, etc. That's not random chance at work. That is the developers at work. They are striving to design content with a particular effect to make the act of tanking exciting and engaging and difficult. Now all of a sudden I have to contend with possibly six new mobs rushing down on my group. Perhaps two of them are lethal threats. But guess what? At this point I'm surrounded by maybe five of the last group that is still alive, some of them snaring me, rooting me. And somehow I have to get free, establish line of sight, and get taunts on at least the big ones and then do the best I can on the rest. All the while not loosing one of the surviving threats in the first group, and all making sure I notice that heavy attack winding up.
Now some of you are thinking...."OMG you are talking about trash packs." Well first, some boss fights have reinforcements as well, but unashamedly YES I AM!. And you will never understand the view point of the developers until you get this. THEY are thinking about trash packs. And they are designing them to be dynamic and engaging because they aren't thinking about the 2% of you that are skilled enough that everything but vet trials are trivial or meaningless. That slice of stuff you consider meaningless is the VAST majority of the game. The developers are designing that VAST game in ESO with the goal of making it engaging.
Enter the Tormentor Set...
Now I have practiced a lot. I can handle the situation I just described on my DK. I can tank it solidly, and often impress my group. But I can do nothing in comparison to my templar. On my Dragon Knight, I need to react immediately first of all. I must quickly maneuver to where I have line of sight first. Then if there are six mobs simply by virtue of global cool downs I'm going to need six seconds to grab them all. What's more I need to prioritize what I grab, mentally assessing threat order in a mater of seconds. And during all of that I need to make sure I don't loose any current threats still standing. I must not fail to notice the heavy attacks and I have to do it all without running out of resources. In other words, that handcrafted scenario by the developers may not be difficult for a good tank, but it is ENGAGING.
But now I have my templar tormentor. How do I respond? Well I have two excellent options which no other tank in all of ESO has.
Option 1: I don't respond. Yep. I just ignore. The second wave comes running in and I just keep doing my thing. Well to be fair, I guess any class could ignore them. But my tormentor templar can safely ignore them. Because when they get to us, I press one single button and its all mine. That's it. All the scenario that they meant to be engaging is reduced to one button press. It was trivialized.
Option 2: And this one is even better when you start to realize a tormentor play style. You just erase the whole scenario with two button presses! Just tormentor the first group and then tormentor over to the second group! Now its just a straight burn in a big stack thanks to two buttons!
And the scenarios in tanking that tormentor erases are EVERYWHERE. In my dungeon groups I will put up with a great deal of tomfoolery and incompetence. But one thing I will not put up with is one of my team mates trying to train the dungeon and pile up 40 mobs for a burn. Why will I not tolerate that? It can be pretty effective if the group is ready for it. But I will not tolerate it because I love tanking and I am there to tank. And no tank can control a 40 mob fight. They of course do not expect the tank to do so. They expect the healer to keep the DD's alive while they burn the pile....all while the tank sits there with his thumb up his butt. I won't tolerate it because they are writing me out of the group until the end when they need somebody to block a heavy attack. No tank can actually do the job of tanking in that scenario....oh wait....tormentor templars can. They can take every last bit of it with a couple button presses.
And the scenarios are endless. We could talk about situation after situation after situation. And all of them are not helped by tormentor, they are trivialized by tormentor. Content which the developers meant to be engaging and challenging to at least the average tank, is trivialized by a single set. That is by definition overpowered. Perhaps not in content that you care about. But in content that many care about. And in content the developers care about.
I'm not saying this NEEDED to be done. As many have mentioned, so few were taking advantage of this that it could have well been ignored. The game would have gone on fine apart from this nerf. I'm only saying that if the developers were going to evaluate it...then yeah. They made the right call.
I am not saying I wanted the developers to do this. Whether this was a waist of their time and effort is another question. Some say they have way more important things they should have been working on. That may well be true. I'm just saying that having spent the time to address it, they made the right call. So here goes...
Why my opinion ought to be heard...
I'm not saying anybody ought to agree with me, but this is why it would be worth your time to hear me out. I've been tanking in ESO from the first moment I started making an actual role other than just wandering through overland putting stuff on. Most of those years have been dragon knight. Tanking has been the sole thing that has made me unable to leave ESO despite brief departures. Dang Cyberpunk 2077 got good! I tank, and I love to tank vet DLC dungeons using the dungeon finder. I get excited when it gives me a vet DLC I haven't tanked that day. But for the last two years I have specifically lived and breathed tanking on a templar using tormentors. This is not something I've just dabbled in. This is my thing, seeing just what can be accomplished on a Templar with this specific set. And I'm not using it as a crutch because I'm a bad tank and need the help. Just the other day I used random group finder to succeed at a speedrun, HM of Depths of Malatar with a bunch of strangers using my dragon knight who obviously has no AOE taunt. No Tormentor. So I know how to tank without it. And I know what can be done with it.
The ESO environment that is horribly complicating this question...
Over a decade we have developed a very warped culture regarding META. There is a minority of players in this game for which all content whatsoever is completely trivial. I don't simply mean overland content but almost everything. The hard truth is this...probably about 98% of the game is not designed with you in mind. The developers throw in a little bit of content specifically for you somewhat regularly while designing the vast majority of the game to players that are not on that level. However, it is far more common for streamers and other influencers to be part of that group that is competing in things like score pushing vet trials and arenas, having pre-made groups that will tackle vet DLC dungeon trifectas within a week of release. This creates a peculiar public square when it comes to ESO. Rather than speaking in terms of the average player's experience. Everything, and everyone, is being evaluated for its worth solely in terms of that tiny slice of content that is made for the most elite ESO players. As a result, the concept of something being overpowered is also evaluated entirely on how it performs in those environments. Perhaps this culture in the "ESO public square" is inevitable. But here is the point. It is not how the developers are thinking. And as long as we evaluate everything in this way, the developers are going to appear to us like a mysterious bunch of bullies who seem to be asking, "Who's day can we ruin this patch?"
How do we evaluate something being overpowered?
There are a few good answers to this. For example if something is so good it begins to destroy diversity then it is probably over power and needs a nerf. But I want to put forward an additional way something is qualified as overpowered. And this is what will let us see why the Tormentor nerf was the right call.
Something is overpowered if it trivializes something the developers meant to be challenging.
If something is designed by the developers to be engaging, and an item or power is inserted which unintentionally trivializes that content, then that thing is overpowered by definition. Or that is my assertion. So how does this apply to the Tormentor set? Very directly. The developers are constantly hand crafting dungeons, trying to make them dynamic and engaging for every role of the group. Say they succeed or suck, I don't care. That is what they are aiming at constantly. After nearly a decade of dungeon tanking we could talk about specifics for a long time. But let me put out one familiar scenario to dungeon tanks. How many times do the developers set up a dungeon with 6-8 creatures in front of you...and lo and behold just as you get that crew under control here comes reinforcements. Sometimes its two adds coming around the corner, other times that second group that was on the other side of the room is programed to rush in just at the right time, or when you kill a couple, etc. That's not random chance at work. That is the developers at work. They are striving to design content with a particular effect to make the act of tanking exciting and engaging and difficult. Now all of a sudden I have to contend with possibly six new mobs rushing down on my group. Perhaps two of them are lethal threats. But guess what? At this point I'm surrounded by maybe five of the last group that is still alive, some of them snaring me, rooting me. And somehow I have to get free, establish line of sight, and get taunts on at least the big ones and then do the best I can on the rest. All the while not loosing one of the surviving threats in the first group, and all making sure I notice that heavy attack winding up.
Now some of you are thinking...."OMG you are talking about trash packs." Well first, some boss fights have reinforcements as well, but unashamedly YES I AM!. And you will never understand the view point of the developers until you get this. THEY are thinking about trash packs. And they are designing them to be dynamic and engaging because they aren't thinking about the 2% of you that are skilled enough that everything but vet trials are trivial or meaningless. That slice of stuff you consider meaningless is the VAST majority of the game. The developers are designing that VAST game in ESO with the goal of making it engaging.
Enter the Tormentor Set...
Now I have practiced a lot. I can handle the situation I just described on my DK. I can tank it solidly, and often impress my group. But I can do nothing in comparison to my templar. On my Dragon Knight, I need to react immediately first of all. I must quickly maneuver to where I have line of sight first. Then if there are six mobs simply by virtue of global cool downs I'm going to need six seconds to grab them all. What's more I need to prioritize what I grab, mentally assessing threat order in a mater of seconds. And during all of that I need to make sure I don't loose any current threats still standing. I must not fail to notice the heavy attacks and I have to do it all without running out of resources. In other words, that handcrafted scenario by the developers may not be difficult for a good tank, but it is ENGAGING.
But now I have my templar tormentor. How do I respond? Well I have two excellent options which no other tank in all of ESO has.
Option 1: I don't respond. Yep. I just ignore. The second wave comes running in and I just keep doing my thing. Well to be fair, I guess any class could ignore them. But my tormentor templar can safely ignore them. Because when they get to us, I press one single button and its all mine. That's it. All the scenario that they meant to be engaging is reduced to one button press. It was trivialized.
Option 2: And this one is even better when you start to realize a tormentor play style. You just erase the whole scenario with two button presses! Just tormentor the first group and then tormentor over to the second group! Now its just a straight burn in a big stack thanks to two buttons!
And the scenarios in tanking that tormentor erases are EVERYWHERE. In my dungeon groups I will put up with a great deal of tomfoolery and incompetence. But one thing I will not put up with is one of my team mates trying to train the dungeon and pile up 40 mobs for a burn. Why will I not tolerate that? It can be pretty effective if the group is ready for it. But I will not tolerate it because I love tanking and I am there to tank. And no tank can control a 40 mob fight. They of course do not expect the tank to do so. They expect the healer to keep the DD's alive while they burn the pile....all while the tank sits there with his thumb up his butt. I won't tolerate it because they are writing me out of the group until the end when they need somebody to block a heavy attack. No tank can actually do the job of tanking in that scenario....oh wait....tormentor templars can. They can take every last bit of it with a couple button presses.
And the scenarios are endless. We could talk about situation after situation after situation. And all of them are not helped by tormentor, they are trivialized by tormentor. Content which the developers meant to be engaging and challenging to at least the average tank, is trivialized by a single set. That is by definition overpowered. Perhaps not in content that you care about. But in content that many care about. And in content the developers care about.
I'm not saying this NEEDED to be done. As many have mentioned, so few were taking advantage of this that it could have well been ignored. The game would have gone on fine apart from this nerf. I'm only saying that if the developers were going to evaluate it...then yeah. They made the right call.
Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest
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Gray_howling_parrot✭✭✭✭✭
✭AOE taunting mob trash packs simply is not overpowered. Plain and simple.
They have had this set in the game - as is - for 10 years. Randomly 10 years later, it's now suddenly over-powered. It's not being over-used, it's not really used on anyone outside of Templar tanks, 2h tanks, or Werewolf tanks. It's a fun set / selfish tank set that trivializes what you said - trash pulls - in exchange for a big hamper on group damage in those scenarios.
I'll dabble and use your example. ZOS has given us only single target pull abilities (DK chain for instance or fighter's guild silver leash). We have swarm mother, rush of agony & the void bash set that pull in ALL enemies surrounding us at once. That's trivializing the mechanic of having to deal with ranged mobs around us. That has to be considered over-powered as well in your logic, doesn't it? No - you are simply trivializing or increasing QOL for you as a tank IN EXCHANGE for a loss of enemy debuffs or group buffs. This is the exact same as the tormentor set. We have only been given single target taunts as abilities - just like the pull (minus frozen gate with warden or summoner's armor/whatever it's called for necro). This doesn't mean it's overpowered. It means that it is making something easier.
Group buffs make doing damage easier.
Enemy debuffs make doing damage to enemies easier.
Tormentor makes taunting groups easier.
Rush of agony/void bash/swarm mother make pulling groups in easier.
You don't get all of them. You have to mix and match the sets. And "META" is typically all group-buff or enemy-debuff-oriented sets. This has "flown under the radar" for 10 years, because there's never been a reason to nerf the set. Just as there is no reason now. It's not being used by high end raiders or trifecta runners on a regular enough basis to warrant justifying this nerf. It's not being used to cheese mechanics. It's not even being used in PvP. Not saying you cannot use it, but it's simply a fun set and kinda a "what are they thinking???" change.
You are right, there are TONs of other things they could be doing - like buffing or straight up getting rid of sets that nobody uses. But they just randomly removed some fun out of the game and that feels bad. No matter how much you defend this in other threads, it doesn't matter - the change doesn't feel good to the players, plain and simple. I appreciate you taking the time to write out your thoughts, but they still don't make sense when you consider all the factors. Templar supports ESPECIALLY are largely lacking in the group content scene and this is one of the few things we got to have as a templar tank that was unique and now that's gone on top of a complete lack of buffs or attention in the update 41 patch notes for this week.
It feels bad. That's it. I understand their "philosophy," which is why you don't have the ability to do this as a baseline. But sets in the game are there to move you past baseline. That's the point.ESO YouTube Content Creator & Templar Tank/Healer Main13 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭You didn’t actually address the argumentation of my post in any way that I can see. You simply said “nu-uh” in a lot of words. Therefore I’m content with my post as it stands.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest2 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭9/10 when unique functionality is removed in the last 10 years it is because it is about to be added to a new class or new skill line.
And now what do we see again? removal of aoe taunt set to likely bring in an aoe taunt with the new chapter.
Just like when Templar's unique Major Mending buff was removed and given to Warden instead. (as well as countless other examples I could mention).
@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)6 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »9/10 when unique functionality is removed in the last 10 years it is because it is about to be added to a new class or new skill line.
And now what do we see again? removal of aoe taunt set to likely bring in an aoe taunt with the new chapter.
Just like when Templar's unique Major Mending buff was removed and given to Warden instead. (as well as countless other examples I could mention).
You might be a prophet, sir. If so I’ll have to eat my words. But I suspect that ability will get the same treatment. AOE damage while only taunting a single MOB. And I strongly expect the timing of the nerf is because of this.
Developer 1: we can’t make this scribe skill an aoe taunt. We don’t do that.
Developer 2: what about tormentor?
Developer 1: oh crap we have to change that.
That’s my guess anyways. If you right in the end remind me and I will totally own it publicly 🤣Edited by BejaProphet on 31 January 2024 20:01Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest2 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »9/10 when unique functionality is removed in the last 10 years it is because it is about to be added to a new class or new skill line.
And now what do we see again? removal of aoe taunt set to likely bring in an aoe taunt with the new chapter.
Just like when Templar's unique Major Mending buff was removed and given to Warden instead. (as well as countless other examples I could mention).
Well we did see that in the reveal that the new bow skill is an aoe that we can add an agro to so yeah4 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I understand you think AoE taunt is overpowered because it’s one skill and stand there but honestly I think it’s a matter of you being an experienced tank, not that AoE taunt is OP for everyone. You may be able to hold 40 enemies and live by just pressing an AoE taunt… most people can’t. We run out of stamina, we run out of magicka, we die. It’s mostly due to blocking of course but that’s my point… learning when to block versus not block has a strong learning curve so I doubt most people would have the sustain to survive that many enemies.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
4 -
Reginald_leBlem✭✭✭✭✭
Am I crazy or does the vVH snb set function as an aoe taunt/pull with 0 drawbacks?
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robpr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reginald_leBlem wrote: »Am I crazy or does the vVH snb set function as an aoe taunt/pull with 0 drawbacks?
Vateshran snb does not taunt and does not proc Tormentor due to being a proc itself. Just mobs naturally attack tank that did CC them in but will switch targets if DPS will be done to them.3 -
Reginald_leBlem✭✭✭✭✭Reginald_leBlem wrote: »Am I crazy or does the vVH snb set function as an aoe taunt/pull with 0 drawbacks?
Vateshran snb does not taunt and does not proc Tormentor due to being a proc itself. Just mobs naturally attack tank that did CC them in but will switch targets if DPS will be done to them.
I'm not talking about it proccing tormentor, I'm talking about the pull on the set itself when you use the correct skill.
Last I knew, pulls taunted.
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BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭I understand you think AoE taunt is overpowered because it’s one skill and stand there but honestly I think it’s a matter of you being an experienced tank, not that AoE taunt is OP for everyone. You may be able to hold 40 enemies and live by just pressing an AoE taunt… most people can’t. We run out of stamina, we run out of magicka, we die. It’s mostly due to blocking of course but that’s my point… learning when to block versus not block has a strong learning curve so I doubt most people would have the sustain to survive that many enemies.
I respect your opinion and your right to it. But it still doesn’t address my arguement, only an illustration.
But with regards to what you say, yes. Experience will certainly play a role. And if you don’t build your tank to be ABLE to handle double digit creatures on you then tormentor will certainly get you killed. But at the same time…we don’t judge an arena weapon as “working as intended” on account that the guy in heavy armor isn’t getting OP DPS with it. We base it on what happens when an experienced player gets hold of it.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest1 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Reginald_leBlem wrote: »Reginald_leBlem wrote: »Am I crazy or does the vVH snb set function as an aoe taunt/pull with 0 drawbacks?
Vateshran snb does not taunt and does not proc Tormentor due to being a proc itself. Just mobs naturally attack tank that did CC them in but will switch targets if DPS will be done to them.
I'm not talking about it proccing tormentor, I'm talking about the pull on the set itself when you use the correct skill.
Last I knew, pulls taunted.
The addition to taunt on pulls only affects single target pulls such as silver leash. Rush of agony and vateshran do not taunt.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
1 -
robpr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reginald_leBlem wrote: »
I'm not talking about it proccing tormentor, I'm talking about the pull on the set itself when you use the correct skill.
Last I knew, pulls taunted.
Silver Leash and Fiery Grip do, the rest, especially those from sets do not taunt. Any kind of CC will 'soft taunt' the targets but usually they will immediately switch responding to DPS.1 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reginald_leBlem wrote: »Am I crazy or does the vVH snb set function as an aoe taunt/pull with 0 drawbacks?
It’s only a parallel in a well oiled group. In a group where three seconds in the kill zone means a creature dies, then it will seem equivalent. But in a group with struggling damage the difference will be night and day. You will find the creatures will promptly begin to scatter again. This mean the void bash is only a prelude to you doing the job of tanking. You are then going to need to snare/root/taunt to manage the fight. And you are going to need to prioritize them. And worry about LOS on the big ones you just pulled. Once again, all very doable for a good tank but you must do it. It’s going to have a measure of engaging that tormentor doesn’t.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest0 -
Reginald_leBlem✭✭✭✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »I understand you think AoE taunt is overpowered because it’s one skill and stand there but honestly I think it’s a matter of you being an experienced tank, not that AoE taunt is OP for everyone. You may be able to hold 40 enemies and live by just pressing an AoE taunt… most people can’t. We run out of stamina, we run out of magicka, we die. It’s mostly due to blocking of course but that’s my point… learning when to block versus not block has a strong learning curve so I doubt most people would have the sustain to survive that many enemies.
I respect your opinion and your right to it. But it still doesn’t address my arguement, only an illustration.
But with regards to what you say, yes. Experience will certainly play a role. And if you don’t build your tank to be ABLE to handle double digit creatures on you then tormentor will certainly get you killed. But at the same time…we don’t judge an arena weapon as “working as intended” on account that the guy in heavy armor isn’t getting OP DPS with it. We base it on what happens when an experienced player gets hold of it.
Tormentor is not an "overpowered" set, in any sense of the word.
1) Zos put it in the game, knowing full well that there are multiple ways to proc it as an aoe taunt, and left it there for ten years. Saying it hasn't worked as intended for those full 10 years is a backhanded insult to the devs.
2) Aoe taunt doesn't "trivialize a challenging mechanic"-- It merely presents a different challenge. And one could argue that any sort of immobilize, which almost every class has, is more useful than aoe taunt and does far more work to "trivialize" add packs, which, except for some nasty buggers in DLC dungeons and trials, I would argue aren't actually designed to be challenging at all. Claiming zos is carefully handcrafting sets and balancing combat around the many unnamed trash packs that die in literal seconds verses the bosses with names, complex mechanics and a quarter billion health is quite a claim, and one you need some good solid facts to back up. There's a reason we call trash trash and call bosses bosses.
3) Anyone who watched the stream saw in full color they are planning to add taunt into the scribing system, and could look at a basic pattern of behavior and recognize that rather than being about a single base game, barely-used set suddenly becoming overpowered 10 years after the fact, they are planning to give that ability to the new system.
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BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reginald_leBlem wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »I understand you think AoE taunt is overpowered because it’s one skill and stand there but honestly I think it’s a matter of you being an experienced tank, not that AoE taunt is OP for everyone. You may be able to hold 40 enemies and live by just pressing an AoE taunt… most people can’t. We run out of stamina, we run out of magicka, we die. It’s mostly due to blocking of course but that’s my point… learning when to block versus not block has a strong learning curve so I doubt most people would have the sustain to survive that many enemies.
I respect your opinion and your right to it. But it still doesn’t address my arguement, only an illustration.
But with regards to what you say, yes. Experience will certainly play a role. And if you don’t build your tank to be ABLE to handle double digit creatures on you then tormentor will certainly get you killed. But at the same time…we don’t judge an arena weapon as “working as intended” on account that the guy in heavy armor isn’t getting OP DPS with it. We base it on what happens when an experienced player gets hold of it.
Tormentor is not an "overpowered" set, in any sense of the word.
1) Zos put it in the game, knowing full well that there are multiple ways to proc it as an aoe taunt, and left it there for ten years. Saying it hasn't worked as intended for those full 10 years is a backhanded insult to the devs.
2) Aoe taunt doesn't "trivialize a challenging mechanic"-- It merely presents a different challenge. And one could argue that any sort of immobilize, which almost every class has, is more useful than aoe taunt and does far more work to "trivialize" add packs, which, except for some nasty buggers in DLC dungeons and trials, I would argue aren't actually designed to be challenging at all. Claiming zos is carefully handcrafting sets and balancing combat around the many unnamed trash packs that die in literal seconds verses the bosses with names, complex mechanics and a quarter billion health is quite a claim, and one you need some good solid facts to back up. There's a reason we call trash trash and call bosses bosses.
3) Anyone who watched the stream saw in full color they are planning to add taunt into the scribing system, and could look at a basic pattern of behavior and recognize that rather than being about a single base game, barely-used set suddenly becoming overpowered 10 years after the fact, they are planning to give that ability to the new system.
1.) ZOS’ own statement with the nerf puts them against your argument and for mine.
2.) So make the argument rather than assuming it expecting me to succumb to intimidation. I told you precisely my definition of over powered. I told you exactly how I see tormentor as fitting this definition. Engage my ideas rather hinting at how somebody “might” engage them.
3.) We are nowhere near seeing conclusively that it is an AOE taunt coming. I’d bet a crown pack it will get the exact same treatment. It will be AOE damage that taunts only the first creature struck. Si that doesn’t prove your case.
Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest1 -
Reginald_leBlem✭✭✭✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »Reginald_leBlem wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »I understand you think AoE taunt is overpowered because it’s one skill and stand there but honestly I think it’s a matter of you being an experienced tank, not that AoE taunt is OP for everyone. You may be able to hold 40 enemies and live by just pressing an AoE taunt… most people can’t. We run out of stamina, we run out of magicka, we die. It’s mostly due to blocking of course but that’s my point… learning when to block versus not block has a strong learning curve so I doubt most people would have the sustain to survive that many enemies.
I respect your opinion and your right to it. But it still doesn’t address my arguement, only an illustration.
But with regards to what you say, yes. Experience will certainly play a role. And if you don’t build your tank to be ABLE to handle double digit creatures on you then tormentor will certainly get you killed. But at the same time…we don’t judge an arena weapon as “working as intended” on account that the guy in heavy armor isn’t getting OP DPS with it. We base it on what happens when an experienced player gets hold of it.
Tormentor is not an "overpowered" set, in any sense of the word.
1) Zos put it in the game, knowing full well that there are multiple ways to proc it as an aoe taunt, and left it there for ten years. Saying it hasn't worked as intended for those full 10 years is a backhanded insult to the devs.
2) Aoe taunt doesn't "trivialize a challenging mechanic"-- It merely presents a different challenge. And one could argue that any sort of immobilize, which almost every class has, is more useful than aoe taunt and does far more work to "trivialize" add packs, which, except for some nasty buggers in DLC dungeons and trials, I would argue aren't actually designed to be challenging at all. Claiming zos is carefully handcrafting sets and balancing combat around the many unnamed trash packs that die in literal seconds verses the bosses with names, complex mechanics and a quarter billion health is quite a claim, and one you need some good solid facts to back up. There's a reason we call trash trash and call bosses bosses.
3) Anyone who watched the stream saw in full color they are planning to add taunt into the scribing system, and could look at a basic pattern of behavior and recognize that rather than being about a single base game, barely-used set suddenly becoming overpowered 10 years after the fact, they are planning to give that ability to the new system.
1.) ZOS’ own statement with the nerf puts them against your argument and for mine.
2.) So make the argument rather than assuming it expecting me to succumb to intimidation. I told you precisely my definition of over powered. I told you exactly how I see tormentor as fitting this definition. Engage my ideas rather hinting at how somebody “might” engage them.
3.) We are nowhere near seeing conclusively that it is an AOE taunt coming. I’d bet a crown pack it will get the exact same treatment. It will be AOE damage that taunts only the first creature struck. Si that doesn’t prove your case.
"Succumb to intimidation"? WHAT intimidation?? My tone is direct, but I don't see how anyone could find it "intimidating".
And I did make my arguments, thought I made my stance pretty clear.0 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Reginald_leBlem that intimidation comment wasn’t primarily directed at you and therefore probably unhelpful. So I’m sorry.
But what I mean is the concept of people responding to your ideas by mocking and condescension as if it is a response. It’s as if they think if they laugh loud enough every assumes they are saying something intelligent. You wouldn’t believe the crap I caught back in 2017 when I was on these forums telling tanks they shouldn’t perma block.
But no, I threw the tone of a couple threads back at you. I shouldn’t have done that.
On the other hand I think all you have done thus far is to assert your views. These are conclusions. Your not explaining to me exactly how those are valid conclusions and mine aren’t. I made this post because in another thread we were talking past one another. So I wrote exactly how I’m getting to my view point. Nobody has yet articulate “why” my reasoning is wrong. They are just skipping it all and telling me their conclusion.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest1 -
Reginald_leBlem✭✭✭✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »@Reginald_leBlem that intimidation comment wasn’t primarily directed at you and therefore probably unhelpful. So I’m sorry.
But what I mean is the concept of people responding to your ideas by mocking and condescension as if it is a response. It’s as if they think if they laugh loud enough every assumes they are saying something intelligent. You wouldn’t believe the crap I caught back in 2017 when I was on these forums telling tanks they shouldn’t perma block.
But no, I threw the tone of a couple threads back at you. I shouldn’t have done that.
On the other hand I think all you have done thus far is to assert your views. These are conclusions. Your not explaining to me exactly how those are valid conclusions and mine aren’t. I made this post because in another thread we were talking past one another. So I wrote exactly how I’m getting to my view point. Nobody has yet articulate “why” my reasoning is wrong. They are just skipping it all and telling me their conclusion.
For one, zos is famously inconsistent with their nerfs, buffs, and explanations. I don't think this is due to incompetence or malice, I suspect it has more to do with staff turnover or lack of communication between departments.
Let's look at the explanation-- it says that there are "many" more ways to proc the set than on launch. How many? Only 3 classes have been added. Warden has portals, so potentially can taunt 3 at once, not really aoe but close enough, necro has summoner's armor which is limited and has a cooldown and maybe already taunts, and I'm sure arcanist has a skill I'm forgetting. That's 3, let's be generous and assume I'm forgetting a class skill and say 4.
What other skill lines have been added? Psijic? Nothing I can think of there. Thieves guild? Nope. Dark brotherhood? Nope. Scrying? Evacuating? No and nope.
It's a silly reason to give. In 10 years we can count on one hand the additional number of ways to proc this set and still have fingers left over, and it's not even good on any of them.
It's.... silly. It's a silly reason to put into words and use as justification to nerf the set.1 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Reginald_leBlem Thats a good observation. I agree that I can’t think of examples of this “growing.”
However, my personal guess remains that scribing has occasioned this. With the new system there may be a few skills which we have the option of choosing to be a transport with aoe damage. It is very probable this nerf happened because of how it was about to come into the spot light and not because of past years.
But we can’t do more than speculate until update 42 goes to test server.Edited by BejaProphet on 31 January 2024 23:25Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest1 -
Reginald_leBlem✭✭✭✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »@Reginald_leBlem Thats a good observation. I agree that I can’t think of examples of this “growing.”
However, my personal guess remains that scribing has occasioned this. With the new system there may be a few skills which we have the option of choosing to be a transport with aoe damage. It is very probable this nerf happened because of how it was about to come into the spot light and not because of past years.
But we can’t do more than speculate until update 42 goes to test server.
Oh I 1000% agree this change is due to scribing.0 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@BejaProphet I am a fan of your guide info on tanking so I read your first post very carefully. I do have a classic DK main tank alt that is built largely upon your guide info.
The situations you describe which challenge your DK tank are ones I would never attempt since I would quickly become overwhelmed/frustrated. No wonder there are so few tanks interested in filling Pugs. The situations you describe with your Tormentor Templar sound like an absolute blast and something I would love to try! Sadly, nerfing the set will no longer allow that so the end result is no tanking for me.PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo4 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »@BejaProphet I am a fan of your guide info on tanking so I read your first post very carefully. I do have a classic DK main tank alt that is built largely upon your guide info.
The situations you describe which challenge your DK tank are ones I would never attempt since I would quickly become overwhelmed/frustrated. No wonder there are so few tanks interested in filling Pugs. The situations you describe with your Tormentor Templar sound like an absolute blast and something I would love to try! Sadly, nerfing the set will no longer allow that so the end result is no tanking for me.
Hey Arcadian! I was actually wondering if I’d hear from you on this thread. I’m sorry this discourages you. I do wish there was a better on road for prospective tanks. I think the worst tragedy is the state of normal dungeons. So seldom are tanks given the chance to learn the ropes there due to over zealous groups blazing through.
But yeah. Tormentor Templar was a blast.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest0 -
chessalavakia_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭As someone that primarily plays normals, running into a Tormentor tank meant you had someone that was actually trying to be a tank which was nice for a change.
The new iteration of Tormentor scales in healing with your damage on selected builds. Thus, it can likely be quite effective on some DPS slanted builds.
For example, every pounce you do you get 45% of the damage done back in healing. (It doesn't appear to have any cooldown)
I'm not really sure I'd call it a nerf so much as a rework.
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J18696✭✭✭✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »AcadianPaladin wrote: »@BejaProphet I am a fan of your guide info on tanking so I read your first post very carefully. I do have a classic DK main tank alt that is built largely upon your guide info.
The situations you describe which challenge your DK tank are ones I would never attempt since I would quickly become overwhelmed/frustrated. No wonder there are so few tanks interested in filling Pugs. The situations you describe with your Tormentor Templar sound like an absolute blast and something I would love to try! Sadly, nerfing the set will no longer allow that so the end result is no tanking for me.
Hey Arcadian! I was actually wondering if I’d hear from you on this thread. I’m sorry this discourages you. I do wish there was a better on road for prospective tanks. I think the worst tragedy is the state of normal dungeons. So seldom are tanks given the chance to learn the ropes there due to over zealous groups blazing through.
But yeah. Tormentor Templar was a blast.
It also does not help that all the content in normals are so easy you don't even need a tank maybe some small scenarios where I am wrong on this any well geared end game player should be able todo any normal content like its a joke it encourages people to rush ahead because so little endangers them
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SalamanNZ✭✭✭I didnt hear anyone complaining about this set before. Just leave it as it is so that groups can smash through trash and make getting to the bosses a simple process rather than tanks "learning" how to tank with hours and hours of failed trash clears because they cant hold aggro and the DPS runs from the tank with the mob rather than towards them so they wipe and the group wipes.2
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UNSeki✭✭✭I'm not sure if there is a point in this argument.
The question isn't whether AoE taunts are OP or not or if the dungeon content was originally designed for them or not, since those aspects are remediable. It's about what's enjoyable to the players and what will we do from now on.
As they are, players do not find trash mob fights enjoyable. We want every possible dungeon shortcut and skill/set available to speed up the process of going through them.
Additionally, the tanks themselves want to have fun with something else than just holding block and being a buff/debuff bot. Sure, taunting key targets is one of those things, but trying to organize the mess of the mob AI spreading all over the room? Not so much... not when it's the hundredth time we're going through that same dungeon while we know the trash is just filler between the bosses. Especially when we are doing randoms and have no control over who is going to DPS those mobs — and, man, can it get slow when they are not stacked together!
It is okay for players to want to speed up and skip some things. Just make it a choice that involves dropping other benefits, perhaps ones even more important for endgame content — as is already the case with Tormentor and why it doesn't reign on the meta.
Why remove something niche that was fulfilling a benefitial role in the game?5
