Tanking in dungeons - making two handed melee meta

wolfsilver · January 18

So, getting this out of the way, I'm a roleplayer first and foremost, and it's nothing short of grating that, to be meta as a tank in vet endgame content, one must ditch intuition and grab the frost staff, when you should be able to use something like a two handed maul or battle axe instead. As such, I'm opening the discussion to see if something can't be done about it, and for zenimax to see it, and bring about whatever change can be agreed upon that would accomplish this without breaking or otherwise disrupting the game

Being your suggestions forth (assuming you want this change to happen as well), and let's get the conversation started; not sure if we can actually get anything done, but we can at least try.

Here's some spitballs I've come up with:

Maybe we can add two handed melee to the 'bulwark' champion perk ( Replacing frost staff with it (probably a bad idea, but might as well through it out there)?)

Have a critical charge morph apply a minor debuff to the enemy/enemies/npc's it strikes for a small period of time? Maybe something like minor or major Fracture, Uncertainty, Enervation, Brittle, Cowardice, or Savagery?

For group buffs, maybe have rally apply Toughness/Increase physical resistance to the group for a certain number of seconds? again, as a minor buff

I'm well aware that most of these probably wouldn't work, but, again, I just want to get the ball rolling here

If you've got any better ideas, lets hear em, and discuss!

Erickson9610 · January 18

The way I see it, Frost Staves are overloaded with functionality. It's true that it's thematically appropriate to be able to snare enemies, immobilize them, and harden your defenses with ice magic, but the weapon is trying to fill both a damage dealer spec and a tanking spec simultaneously. Wardens in particular gain a massive boost to damage done when a Frost Staff is equipped, but this bonus still applies when using the Frost Staff defensively. So, you can be a tank and damage dealer simultaneously with this weapon.

This is why I don't think Two Handed weapons should become like the Frost Staff by doubling as tanking and damage dealing weapons. If we wanted to separate Frost Staves from being a tanking weapon, then we would need another Magicka tanking weapon as an alternative. Maybe some sort of One Hand & Rune/Ward weapon and skill line could be made to function like One Hand & Shield, but using Magicka for tanking instead of Stamina.

Necrotech_Master · January 18

2h is a dmg focus tree

though you can get some decent survivability out of brawler/cleave due to the shield on use, that will only really work well for normal, and maybe some vet dungeons

you need a full on tank spec (ice staff or 1h/shield) to really be able to tank any serious vet content

Soarora · January 18

To me from an RP perspective, a 2H wielder is a tanky DPS but not a tank. You can fake tank with a 2H but I don’t see how ice is against intuition. Sword and board is pinnacle of tankhood and ice staff means crowd control (immobilizing enemies in ice, slowing them, etc.).

BejaProphet · January 18

I think making it “meta” is an unreasonable request. You could ask for it to be viable, but then the response would be “it already is.”

The gate keepers preventing you from playing it is not the game. It is and will always be either players insisting you to play meta, or your own insecurities that you are not playing meta.

wolfsilver · January 18

Soarora wrote: »

To me from an RP perspective, a 2H wielder is a tanky DPS but not a tank. You can fake tank with a 2H but I don’t see how ice is against intuition. Sword and board is pinnacle of tankhood and ice staff means crowd control (immobilizing enemies in ice, slowing them, etc.).

When I said 'against intuition', perhaps I was still thinking of 'Strat-Edgy Productions' video review of ESO (specifically when he gets to tanking) and how he felt it was counter intuitive to use an ice staff when what he had in mind for a tank was 'guy carrying a big stick while decked out in heavy armor', which is, admittedly, what I always had in mind: someone using their two handed melee weapon to hold back the enemies attack, or push them away (like, say, intercepting the pincers of an enemy crab to stop it from attacking, and even push it back (you know, grappling with the enemy))

Metal tends to be harder to snap in half than wood, after all. Staves, even frost staves, just don't invoke the same imagery, being a thin strip of wood and all, and just feel like they'd be much more at risk of being snapped like, well, a twig (and that's taking into account the fictional metals and timber available in universe)

Perhaps the more accurate term I'm thinking of is, well, 'immersion/realism'.

Either way, I'm not giving up trying to make two handed melee a good option for tanking in vet endgame content.
it's too immersion breaking

wolfsilver · January 18

BejaProphet wrote: »

I think making it “meta” is an unreasonable request. You could ask for it to be viable, but then the response would be “it already is.”

The gate keepers preventing you from playing it is not the game. It is and will always be either players insisting you to play meta, or your own insecurities that you are not playing meta.

Yeah, well, apologies, but, for me, it's just too immersion breaking, a two handed melee weapon being less effective at tanking in a dungeon than a magic staff

El_Borracho · January 18

Not trying to make fun of the "realism" portion of this discussion, but I think a staff that shoots ice and can immobilize you is probably a tad more effective than a sword at a lot of things, tanking included.

BejaProphet · January 18

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I think making it “meta” is an unreasonable request. You could ask for it to be viable, but then the response would be “it already is.”

The gate keepers preventing you from playing it is not the game. It is and will always be either players insisting you to play meta, or your own insecurities that you are not playing meta.

Yeah, well, apologies, but, for me, it's just too immersion breaking, a two handed melee weapon being less effective at tanking in a dungeon than a magic staff

I’d say your immersion is too fragile if it has no room for somebody who specializes in defensive magic.

On the practical side…they can only make so many things specialize in defense. Clearly a shield must be first priority. And if they are going to pick a second there are a lot of people who do want to play out the fantasy of a defensive caster. Their fantasy ideal is as valid as yours.

And finally, you can successfully tank anything with a two handed as one of your weapons. The problem with your request is that you specifically want end-game score pushers who insist on meta to welcome your two hander. And to that end you are literally asking the developers to make it objectively the best build.

wolfsilver · January 18

El_Borracho wrote: »

Not trying to make fun of the "realism" portion of this discussion, but I think a staff that shoots ice and can immobilize you is probably a tad more effective than a sword at a lot of things, tanking included.

Poor choice of words on my part; immersive was probably more accurate

wolfsilver · January 18

BejaProphet wrote: »

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I think making it “meta” is an unreasonable request. You could ask for it to be viable, but then the response would be “it already is.”

The gate keepers preventing you from playing it is not the game. It is and will always be either players insisting you to play meta, or your own insecurities that you are not playing meta.

Yeah, well, apologies, but, for me, it's just too immersion breaking, a two handed melee weapon being less effective at tanking in a dungeon than a magic staff

I’d say your immersion is too fragile if it has no room for somebody who specializes in defensive magic.

On the practical side…they can only make so many things specialize in defense. Clearly a shield must be first priority. And if they are going to pick a second there are a lot of people who do want to play out the fantasy of a defensive caster. Their fantasy ideal is as valid as yours.

And finally, you can successfully tank anything with a two handed as one of your weapons. The problem with your request is that you specifically want end-game score pushers who insist on meta to welcome your two hander. And to that end you are literally asking the developers to make it objectively the best build.

Fair enough on the point about immersion.

And yeah, maybe I am just ticked off at the end game score-pushers; or maybe I just hate how the tank build I always wanted to play for endgame challenges is never going to be able to complete the hardest stuff if I play him how I wanted, and want a more melee, non magic using sort of tank to be just as much of an option as the magic ones; not better, or worse. just equal.

Araneae6537 · January 18

I think the bulwark passive shouldn’t specify weapon. Shield — that makes sense that it would be for tanking — but nothing else should be just for tanking unless and until there’s some kind of alteration staff for shielding, etc.

I resist using S&B and frost staff on all my tanks — I like a lightning backbar for my sorc tank. I realize that doesn’t help me at all mechanics-wise but so long as I’m mindful what I block the big hits with, it works (I just wish dark deal didn’t drop block altogether, but that’s a separate topic).

Then I have a templar tank that backbars 2H — probably even further from the meta, so I only tank casual dungeons with that character.

El_Borracho · January 18

wolfsilver wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Not trying to make fun of the "realism" portion of this discussion, but I think a staff that shoots ice and can immobilize you is probably a tad more effective than a sword at a lot of things, tanking included.

Poor choice of words on my part; immersive was probably more accurate

LOL, no problem. I'm with you there

gariondavey · January 18

Put on 1 magma incarnate, esoteric greaves, rush of agony, master 2h front bar, wretched vitality, maelstrom ice back bar

Just stampede around pulling everyone in.
Caltrops and wall of frost give your group major minor breach. Wall of frost + brawler give you big shields. Esoteric makes you tanky af like you are blocking. Wretched vitality + serpent mundas make you keep up your stam.

Make sure to slot the undaunted taunt or the ice staff taunt.

Use stam parse food. Tri stat glyphs. Heavy chest, light belt, medium gloves, a few more medium, 1-2 other heavy pieces.

If you have more questions or need a build editor made, tag me.

BejaProphet · January 19

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I think making it “meta” is an unreasonable request. You could ask for it to be viable, but then the response would be “it already is.”

The gate keepers preventing you from playing it is not the game. It is and will always be either players insisting you to play meta, or your own insecurities that you are not playing meta.

Yeah, well, apologies, but, for me, it's just too immersion breaking, a two handed melee weapon being less effective at tanking in a dungeon than a magic staff

I’d say your immersion is too fragile if it has no room for somebody who specializes in defensive magic.

On the practical side…they can only make so many things specialize in defense. Clearly a shield must be first priority. And if they are going to pick a second there are a lot of people who do want to play out the fantasy of a defensive caster. Their fantasy ideal is as valid as yours.

And finally, you can successfully tank anything with a two handed as one of your weapons. The problem with your request is that you specifically want end-game score pushers who insist on meta to welcome your two hander. And to that end you are literally asking the developers to make it objectively the best build.

Fair enough on the point about immersion.

And yeah, maybe I am just ticked off at the end game score-pushers; or maybe I just hate how the tank build I always wanted to play for endgame challenges is never going to be able to complete the hardest stuff if I play him how I wanted, and want a more melee, non magic using sort of tank to be just as much of an option as the magic ones; not better, or worse. just equal.

Now that is a very fair perspective. 👍

wolfsilver · January 19

gariondavey wrote: »

Put on 1 magma incarnate, esoteric greaves, rush of agony, master 2h front bar, wretched vitality, maelstrom ice back bar

Just stampede around pulling everyone in.
Caltrops and wall of frost give your group major minor breach. Wall of frost + brawler give you big shields. Esoteric makes you tanky af like you are blocking. Wretched vitality + serpent mundas make you keep up your stam.

Make sure to slot the undaunted taunt or the ice staff taunt.

Use stam parse food. Tri stat glyphs. Heavy chest, light belt, medium gloves, a few more medium, 1-2 other heavy pieces.

If you have more questions or need a build editor made, tag me.

Yeah, once again, this is where I probably should have toned down my excitement, and thought this post through.

The build I want, that I've always wanted to build and use for vet dlc dungeons, has been a a non-magic using one; mace and shield in one bar, maul in the other. Is this even remotely optimal by the games current mechanics? No, and that's something I want to see changed, and made as viable as the meta for the game. not better, or worse; equal.

I am well aware of how the game is built, and how the build isn't optimal, and how I'm never going to be able to tank vet dlc dungeon hm's with it, and yada yada yada - I've heard it all before, FAR too many times to count, and have annoyed too many people about it (well, annoyed too many people from my perspective, anyway). So, please, don't remind me.

Stamina based tank, if you will. I've only ever seen this kind of build in Cyrodiil, and want it to become something that can be done in dungeons

wolfsilver · January 19

BejaProphet wrote: »

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I think making it “meta” is an unreasonable request. You could ask for it to be viable, but then the response would be “it already is.”

The gate keepers preventing you from playing it is not the game. It is and will always be either players insisting you to play meta, or your own insecurities that you are not playing meta.

Yeah, well, apologies, but, for me, it's just too immersion breaking, a two handed melee weapon being less effective at tanking in a dungeon than a magic staff

I’d say your immersion is too fragile if it has no room for somebody who specializes in defensive magic.

On the practical side…they can only make so many things specialize in defense. Clearly a shield must be first priority. And if they are going to pick a second there are a lot of people who do want to play out the fantasy of a defensive caster. Their fantasy ideal is as valid as yours.

And finally, you can successfully tank anything with a two handed as one of your weapons. The problem with your request is that you specifically want end-game score pushers who insist on meta to welcome your two hander. And to that end you are literally asking the developers to make it objectively the best build.

Fair enough on the point about immersion.

And yeah, maybe I am just ticked off at the end game score-pushers; or maybe I just hate how the tank build I always wanted to play for endgame challenges is never going to be able to complete the hardest stuff if I play him how I wanted, and want a more melee, non magic using sort of tank to be just as much of an option as the magic ones; not better, or worse. just equal.

Now that is a very fair perspective. 👍

Thank you; So, do you have any suggestions for making the playing field more equal as it regards making one hand and shield + two handed melee more or less equal to frost staff in dungeons? If not, well, that's kind of what this thread is for. Me? I want to try to keep a positive attitude, and focus on trying to make this actually possible in the game

BejaProphet · January 19

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I think making it “meta” is an unreasonable request. You could ask for it to be viable, but then the response would be “it already is.”

The gate keepers preventing you from playing it is not the game. It is and will always be either players insisting you to play meta, or your own insecurities that you are not playing meta.

Yeah, well, apologies, but, for me, it's just too immersion breaking, a two handed melee weapon being less effective at tanking in a dungeon than a magic staff

I’d say your immersion is too fragile if it has no room for somebody who specializes in defensive magic.

On the practical side…they can only make so many things specialize in defense. Clearly a shield must be first priority. And if they are going to pick a second there are a lot of people who do want to play out the fantasy of a defensive caster. Their fantasy ideal is as valid as yours.

And finally, you can successfully tank anything with a two handed as one of your weapons. The problem with your request is that you specifically want end-game score pushers who insist on meta to welcome your two hander. And to that end you are literally asking the developers to make it objectively the best build.

Fair enough on the point about immersion.

And yeah, maybe I am just ticked off at the end game score-pushers; or maybe I just hate how the tank build I always wanted to play for endgame challenges is never going to be able to complete the hardest stuff if I play him how I wanted, and want a more melee, non magic using sort of tank to be just as much of an option as the magic ones; not better, or worse. just equal.

Now that is a very fair perspective. 👍

Thank you; So, do you have any suggestions for making the playing field more equal as it regards making one hand and shield + two handed melee more or less equal to frost staff in dungeons? If not, well, that's kind of what this thread is for. Me? I want to try to keep a positive attitude, and focus on trying to make this actually possible in the game

With the times I have tried that build I’ve found the biggest handicap to be sustain rather than any abilities missing. When you use a frost staff you can alternate resources for blocking, and restore both with heavy attacks.

If I was determined to make it work then this is what I’d try.

1. All sturdy traits on armor.
2. All Stam cost reduction on infused Jewelry. (Idea is to stretch your Stam forever)
3. Bracing anchor red xp passive to make up for lost blocking potency.
4. Use the crit leap two hand ability to trigger the infused crusher so groups aren’t missing that.
5. After this you have to find the right balance of Stam and magicka abilities on your bar so that neither are stressed too hard.
6. Remember with the two handed leap you have chance to use tormentor set for aoe taunt, which is crazy awesome.
7. Brawler morph of cleave is a pretty nice shield for packs.

You CAN make an insanely strong tank that is based on stamina play rather than a mag regen build. That’s how I play and I random PUG tank vet DLC dungeons all the time. And I beat every vet DLC. My mag regen is 500

None of this will fix elitist snobs judging you before they even see your skill level.

I do know you were asking for my suggestions on how developers could change the game to make it more viable. But I don’t have any ideas on that.

wolfsilver · January 19

BejaProphet wrote: »

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

wolfsilver wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I think making it “meta” is an unreasonable request. You could ask for it to be viable, but then the response would be “it already is.”

The gate keepers preventing you from playing it is not the game. It is and will always be either players insisting you to play meta, or your own insecurities that you are not playing meta.

Yeah, well, apologies, but, for me, it's just too immersion breaking, a two handed melee weapon being less effective at tanking in a dungeon than a magic staff

I’d say your immersion is too fragile if it has no room for somebody who specializes in defensive magic.

On the practical side…they can only make so many things specialize in defense. Clearly a shield must be first priority. And if they are going to pick a second there are a lot of people who do want to play out the fantasy of a defensive caster. Their fantasy ideal is as valid as yours.

And finally, you can successfully tank anything with a two handed as one of your weapons. The problem with your request is that you specifically want end-game score pushers who insist on meta to welcome your two hander. And to that end you are literally asking the developers to make it objectively the best build.

Fair enough on the point about immersion.

And yeah, maybe I am just ticked off at the end game score-pushers; or maybe I just hate how the tank build I always wanted to play for endgame challenges is never going to be able to complete the hardest stuff if I play him how I wanted, and want a more melee, non magic using sort of tank to be just as much of an option as the magic ones; not better, or worse. just equal.

Now that is a very fair perspective. 👍

Thank you; So, do you have any suggestions for making the playing field more equal as it regards making one hand and shield + two handed melee more or less equal to frost staff in dungeons? If not, well, that's kind of what this thread is for. Me? I want to try to keep a positive attitude, and focus on trying to make this actually possible in the game

With the times I have tried that build I’ve found the biggest handicap to be sustain rather than any abilities missing. When you use a frost staff you can alternate resources for blocking, and restore both with heavy attacks.

If I was determined to make it work then this is what I’d try.

1. All sturdy traits on armor.
2. All Stam cost reduction on infused Jewelry. (Idea is to stretch your Stam forever)
3. Bracing anchor red xp passive to make up for lost blocking potency.
4. Use the crit leap two hand ability to trigger the infused crusher so groups aren’t missing that.
5. After this you have to find the right balance of Stam and magicka abilities on your bar so that neither are stressed too hard.
6. Remember with the two handed leap you have chance to use tormentor set for aoe taunt, which is crazy awesome.
7. Brawler morph of cleave is a pretty nice shield for packs.

You CAN make an insanely strong tank that is based on stamina play rather than a mag regen build. That’s how I play and I random PUG tank vet DLC dungeons all the time. And I beat every vet DLC. My mag regen is 500

None of this will fix elitist snobs judging you before they even see your skill level.

I do know you were asking for my suggestions on how developers could change the game to make it more viable. But I don’t have any ideas on that.

Heh heh, nice! Thanks for the tip

And who knows? Maybe the upcoming dlc and the 'scribing' thing'll help in some way

That being said, in terms of making it more viable...what about replacing or adding one of the useless champion perk with one that takes into account that blocking with two hands amounts to grappling with the foe (in contrast to the shield which is genuinely presenting more of a wall), and gives that its own little perk

Or (and here's a thought), much like how there's a buff that increases damage done to dungeon and trial monsters (slayer), what about giving certain two handed skills/morphs debuffs that work exclusively on dungeon monsters, like one that increases their damage taken by a bit, or that reduces their spell and/or physical resistance?

Or (as far as buffs go), what about a rally buff that increases group weapon damage done against dungeon and trial monsters by a small amount?

Again, just spit-balling here, and not trying better than frost destruction staves, just different/equal.

Again, similar to destruction debuffs, it's for a limited amount of time

bar_boss_A · January 20

Having a one-hand and shield with a twohander backbar setup is not as uncommon as you think. You just have to know the boss/mechanics good enough to always be at the right bar (or you play sorc tank and use bound armament as last second panic button on your twohander). The only debuff you are missing out on is minor brittle which is not a prob with all the arcs out there. Play a class that utilizes magicka heals and skills, play a redguard for constat stam regen and you should be good to go.

SmellyUnlimited · January 21

I would love to be a nightblade tank who has life steal/evasion techniques to do endgame trials, but those skills aren’t strong enough to play how “I” would like. You can play how you like, it’s just unrealistic to expect other people to play with you just because you want them to

Darkstorne · January 21

You can still tank with a 2H. Just because it isn't meta, doesn't mean it can't work

I created a thread a year or two ago about the potential of tanking with the Sithis' Gaze mythic (massive boost to health and armour, but negates your block mitigation) and someone seriously went to town on figuring out a good use case for it. They concluded that the Psijic Order ability Meditate was the key to making it work (has a passive that reduces your damage taken by 30% while channelling the ability). And you can boost that further by being a High Elf (racial passive that adds another 5% damage reduction when channelling) and the Light of Cyrodiil set (another 15% damage reduction when channelling).

I was originally going to utilize all of that as a vampire tank, to make their channelled AOE skill Blood Mist have damage mitigation again, with Meditate used for mega damage mitigation and self healing, but then ZOS went and changed Blood Mist into Not-Streak and I lost all interest in the idea.

MashmalloMan · January 22

I'd wait till you see what the new Grimoire for 2H, Fighters guild, Assault, and Support will be. I'm willing to bet you can make multiple skills just like frost Wall of Elements based on what we've seen from Bows Vault Grimoire alone. The Destruction Staff passives aren't all that important to tanking if you were using the Frost staff for your back bar.

For front bar, you're SOL, it's always gonna be best to use 1h + shield.

I could even see them finally toying with an aoe taunt skill, as long as the duration of the taunt was reduced to like 5 seconds it would be fine.

MashmalloMan · January 22

Darkstorne wrote: »

You can still tank with a 2H. Just because it isn't meta, doesn't mean it can't work

I created a thread a year or two ago about the potential of tanking with the Sithis' Gaze mythic (massive boost to health and armour, but negates your block mitigation) and someone seriously went to town on figuring out a good use case for it. They concluded that the Psijic Order ability Meditate was the key to making it work (has a passive that reduces your damage taken by 30% while channelling the ability). And you can boost that further by being a High Elf (racial passive that adds another 5% damage reduction when channelling) and the Light of Cyrodiil set (another 15% damage reduction when channelling).

I was originally going to utilize all of that as a vampire tank, to make their channelled AOE skill Blood Mist have damage mitigation again, with Meditate used for mega damage mitigation and self healing, but then ZOS went and changed Blood Mist into Not-Streak and I lost all interest in the idea.

Also, if you play as a Sorc Tank with Bound Aegis, you can get supplementary 40% block mitigation for 5s to use with 2H. Not sure if it could come close to Sword and Shield and Sorc isn't the best tank available, but it's food for thought.

Djennku · January 23

Looking through the comments, and to add to OP, there happens to be a 2h NB tank by Xynode called Malice you may enjoy. I've used it in some vet trials, dungeons, BRP, etc. and it's fun and amazingly effective. Link below. Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/wfypmrM_YYM?si=4ZIW6S2Fx0LHji3u