"skill issue"

joergino · November 2023

Lags wrote: »

You cant solo every world boss?

(...)

And vet dlc dungeons are supposed to be a challenge.

I was not talking about soloing any world bosses. I'm happy enough that I have actually managed to solo at least some (base game!) world bosses. I meant that at least since Southern Elsweyr world bosses were designed to instakill entire groups of players while two or three players (usually) used to be enough for at least one of the players to stay alive at all times and eventually kill the boss. In Necrom, most bosses are simply huge annoyances.

Also, I was absolutely NOT talking about vet DLC dungeons. During the entire life of my account I have done less than a handful of vet dungeons, none of them DLC, of course, and those experiences were so utterly horrible that I most likely will never ever try another vet dungeon again. Mind you, all of the ones I did were base game, with City of Ashes 2 being the last one I ever did with a group of people I used to play with when I started about five years ago.
Apart from me, only one other player from this group still logs in regularly these days and the streamer among us does at least the dungeons once and then plays the chapter main quest after chapter release. The rest of the year she is busy playing good games, including GW2.
Vet content is completely out of the question for me, lacking a group this will hardly come as a surprise. The complete un-fun-ness of doing a vet dungeon doesn't help at all, I'm afraid.

One extremely important aspect of the utterly horrible non-elite-player ESO experience I missed in my original reply was sort of the most important one, especially considering the incredibly annoying and extremely lengthy quests to unlock the most recent companions - public dungeons.
They used to be good for 1.333 skill points and they also helped a lot with filling the sticker book for their respective region. Nowadays you have to be lucky enough to be around in the extremely rare situation that a second player turns up to try and tackle the group encounter. Yeah, in a way I feel incredibly proud that I managed to solo the (arena!) boss(es) in Gorne on two or three of my 20 characters, but I absolutely hated every single second of those fights. That the public dungeons are parts of the quests to unlock companions is utterly abysmally bad design, btw.

These days public dungeons are only yet another place to avoid completely because the newer ones were obviously only made for the crowd demanding horrifically bad (or: utterly impossible) new content.

Lags · November 2023

joergino wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

You cant solo every world boss?

(...)

And vet dlc dungeons are supposed to be a challenge.

I was not talking about soloing any world bosses. I'm happy enough that I have actually managed to solo at least some (base game!) world bosses. I meant that at least since Southern Elsweyr world bosses were designed to instakill entire groups of players while two or three players (usually) used to be enough for at least one of the players to stay alive at all times and eventually kill the boss. In Necrom, most bosses are simply huge annoyances.

Also, I was absolutely NOT talking about vet DLC dungeons. During the entire life of my account I have done less than a handful of vet dungeons, none of them DLC, of course, and those experiences were so utterly horrible that I most likely will never ever try another vet dungeon again. Mind you, all of the ones I did were base game, with City of Ashes 2 being the last one I ever did with a group of people I used to play with when I started about five years ago.
Apart from me, only one other player from this group still logs in regularly these days and the streamer among us does at least the dungeons once and then plays the chapter main quest after chapter release. The rest of the year she is busy playing good games, including GW2.
Vet content is completely out of the question for me, lacking a group this will hardly come as a surprise. The complete un-fun-ness of doing a vet dungeon doesn't help at all, I'm afraid.

One extremely important aspect of the utterly horrible non-elite-player ESO experience I missed in my original reply was sort of the most important one, especially considering the incredibly annoying and extremely lengthy quests to unlock the most recent companions - public dungeons.
They used to be good for 1.333 skill points and they also helped a lot with filling the sticker book for their respective region. Nowadays you have to be lucky enough to be around in the extremely rare situation that a second player turns up to try and tackle the group encounter. Yeah, in a way I feel incredibly proud that I managed to solo the (arena!) boss(es) in Gorne on two or three of my 20 characters, but I absolutely hated every single second of those fights. That the public dungeons are parts of the quests to unlock companions is utterly abysmally bad design, btw.
These days public dungeons are only yet another place to avoid completely because the newer ones were obviously only made for the crowd demanding horrifically bad (or: utterly impossible) new content.

I understand now. Ya unfortunately your experience seems to be of a player that, if i had to guess, is playing as casual as possible. Like its skyrim or something, and even then it would be super causal. Its not non elite, its just playing as casual as possible. There is a middle ground. My guess would be no gear sets that make sense, no build that makes sense, no champion points that make sense, or barely any champion points at all. And i know some people play like that but like would you imagine that zos would balance the game around players who play that way?

I mean if you took a character with 300 cp, which is super easy to get, put a couple gear sets on, not even meta just sets that make sense for what you want to do. Put in cp for what you want to do. You should have no issue doing most of the easier vet dungeons. I would say city of ash 2 is probably the hardest of the base game vet dungeons, but theres plenty of others that are not, especially any of the 1 versions.

Even with the public dungeons, ya some of the newer ones group events can be tough for some people. But get a friend or dont do it. There are a plethora of other public dungeons. And in the new chapters with those harder group events you can do 99% of everything else. Like things are mostly on the super easy end, again this is an mmo people should be doing things together but 90% of the game you can do alone.

And you said a good game like gw2. Well ive played a lot of gw2. I find that gw2 does a lot of things better than eso, i wont list them here, but i also think eso does some things better than gw2. I think if eso took some ideas from gw2, of the things it does better, eso would be a million times better for it, but thats another story.

However i dont think gw2 is so much more casual friendly. Fractals ramp in difficulty like dungeons in eso, dungeons can be easy or difficult depending on the group like eso, and most of the game is dependent on you having people to do things with (which is very easy to do). Like most mmos, and like eso, there are things that are hard and things that are not, things meant to do alone and others with a group. But 100% the open world enemies of gw2 are more challenging than eso especially in dlc zones.

I think when you play any mmo as casual as possible you just need to understand that most people dont play this way and things arent going to be balanced around it. But again, unfortunately imo, eso is an mmo that makes most things super easy and solo friendly.

Jierdanit · November 2023

joergino wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

You cant solo every world boss?

(...)

And vet dlc dungeons are supposed to be a challenge.

I was not talking about soloing any world bosses. I'm happy enough that I have actually managed to solo at least some (base game!) world bosses. I meant that at least since Southern Elsweyr world bosses were designed to instakill entire groups of players while two or three players (usually) used to be enough for at least one of the players to stay alive at all times and eventually kill the boss. In Necrom, most bosses are simply huge annoyances.

Also, I was absolutely NOT talking about vet DLC dungeons. During the entire life of my account I have done less than a handful of vet dungeons, none of them DLC, of course, and those experiences were so utterly horrible that I most likely will never ever try another vet dungeon again. Mind you, all of the ones I did were base game, with City of Ashes 2 being the last one I ever did with a group of people I used to play with when I started about five years ago.
Apart from me, only one other player from this group still logs in regularly these days and the streamer among us does at least the dungeons once and then plays the chapter main quest after chapter release. The rest of the year she is busy playing good games, including GW2.
Vet content is completely out of the question for me, lacking a group this will hardly come as a surprise. The complete un-fun-ness of doing a vet dungeon doesn't help at all, I'm afraid.

One extremely important aspect of the utterly horrible non-elite-player ESO experience I missed in my original reply was sort of the most important one, especially considering the incredibly annoying and extremely lengthy quests to unlock the most recent companions - public dungeons.
They used to be good for 1.333 skill points and they also helped a lot with filling the sticker book for their respective region. Nowadays you have to be lucky enough to be around in the extremely rare situation that a second player turns up to try and tackle the group encounter. Yeah, in a way I feel incredibly proud that I managed to solo the (arena!) boss(es) in Gorne on two or three of my 20 characters, but I absolutely hated every single second of those fights. That the public dungeons are parts of the quests to unlock companions is utterly abysmally bad design, btw.
These days public dungeons are only yet another place to avoid completely because the newer ones were obviously only made for the crowd demanding horrifically bad (or: utterly impossible) new content.

If base game vet dungeons, base game world bosses and public dungeons are impossible for you then the problem is 100% on your end.

Any player who knows how to play the game in any decent way and has some alright gear should be able to beat that content (even if it provides some challenge).
You really dont need to learn or farm a lot to be able to beat that content so its absolutely your fault for not being willing to improve to the point where you can do that content.

I recently did the quest to unlock Sharp-As-Night and did not encounter a single enemy that put up any challenge and the whole quest took about 20 minutes.

YetAnotherLinuxUser · November 2023

Ph1p wrote: »

YetAnotherLinuxUser wrote: »

so in the end you want everyone on a bar swapping light attack style.

How did you reach that conclusion, when the OP literally wrote "I just want the tankiness of the build toned down and for 2-bar HA to be viable, not for HA to be wiped from existence"?

inductive reasoning skills???? yah ill go with that.

Warhawke_80 · November 2023

The blame isn't on Elitist players....though their attitudes certainly doesn't help.

The Blame lies with the devs and the absolute gulf they created between the casual and hardcore players, in terms of skill, in terms of rewards, and now in terms of new repeatable content...and nothing demonstrates that as much as EA.

One of the devs at this years Blizzcon said something that caused the crowd to erupt in applause. "Telling players they aren't working hard enough is basically giving the finger to the majority of our customers, everyone should have rewarding viable content, not just content for the 5%" The new expansion is completely reworking overland content.

I just think the devs needs to reexamine their priorities if all of the elder game is for 5% of the player base the other 95% isn't going to stick around, especially since games like FFXIV, WoW, SWTOR and several upcoming MMO's ...have or are... completely changing their priorities

Ph1p · November 2023

YetAnotherLinuxUser wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

YetAnotherLinuxUser wrote: »

so in the end you want everyone on a bar swapping light attack style.

How did you reach that conclusion, when the OP literally wrote "I just want the tankiness of the build toned down and for 2-bar HA to be viable, not for HA to be wiped from existence"?

inductive reasoning skills???? yah ill go with that.

👍👍 Can’t argue with that logic!

MidniteOwl1913 · November 2023

I don't understand the "I don't like your playstyle, you have improve so you can use mine...". I do me, why do you think I need anyone approval but mine?

I sometimes like the ease of the one-bar oakensoul heavy attack. It is fine just as it is, easy use for less damage. I am working on a 2 bar NB build and that too is fun for me. It's not a "Heavy attach"build, but I like to HA with my lightning staff. I'm not chasing maximum damage. I just want to have fun and be able to enjoy most content. I do very little vet, and no trials.

I would expect to get thru at least arc one (for the daily) of EA on either build. If that's as far as I get so be it. I think I am improving but at my pace and for my reasons. Nerfing one of the playstyles I like in an effort to make me improve isn't something I'm for.

Zodiarkslayer · November 2023

It seems to me, that we could solve all community problems by seperating casuals and vets.

The easiest way is to get rid of the ridiculous mega servers architecture (EU and NA makes no sense any more, the games players and also the internet architecture have changed) and let the players decide if they want to log in on a veteran server or a normal server. All community aspects would be able to scale in size to the demands of the players present on the server.

And obviously the difficulty can be fine tuned per server. As long as the rewards are equal (not identical) there will be no reason to engage with content, that the individual player because of whatever reasons has no intention to. Be that skill level, time restrictions or social awkwardness.

Ah, and PvP can go to the vet servers as well. 😡

Braffin · November 2023

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The blame isn't on Elitist players....though their attitudes certainly doesn't help.

The Blame lies with the devs and the absolute gulf they created between the casual and hardcore players, in terms of skill, in terms of rewards, and now in terms of new repeatable content...and nothing demonstrates that as much as EA.

One of the devs at this years Blizzcon said something that caused the crowd to erupt in applause. "Telling players they aren't working hard enough is basically giving the finger to the majority of our customers, everyone should have rewarding viable content, not just content for the 5%" The new expansion is completely reworking overland content.

I just think the devs needs to reexamine their priorities if all of the elder game is for 5% of the player base the other 95% isn't going to stick around, especially since games like FFXIV, WoW, SWTOR and several upcoming MMO's ...have or are... completely changing their priorities

It's exactly the other way around: 95% of this game's content (overland zones) are far too easy, thus excluding a big chunk of the playerbase. Most newer players leave the game after they realize, that there won't be any meaningful challenge for them anymore (besides raiding and PvP. But not everyone is into that.). Honestly, eso mostly plays like a TellTale not an mmo at all.

Now Zos reacted and tried to put in a challenge for everyone. It starts out easy, as Arc 1 is meant for the most casual players.

As a challenge.

Because hoards of players demanded it.

I respect, if someone isn't interested in this game mode. It's not a mandatory part of the game tho, but an offer. There is always the possibility to stay out of it.

On a sidenote: I can't tell for FF XIV or WoW, but in swtor overland content is definitely more meaningful difficulty-wise than in eso. There are whole parts of every overland map flagged as "Heroic" content and you shouldn't even try attacking a WB on your own. You're dead then for sure.

Kendaric · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

but in swtor overland content is definitely more meaningful difficulty-wise than in eso. There are whole parts of every overland map flagged as "Heroic" content and you shouldn't even try attack a WB on your own. You're dead then for sure.

Soloing a worldboss in SWTOR is impossible but then they have only one world boss per planet. Heroic areas can generally be done solo as long as you have companion with reasonably high approval rating. Before they scaled the player down to the planet's level, some word bosses were actually possible to solo (like those on the capital worlds).

Also, SWTOR doesn't require players to actively dodge/block and even interrupts are rarely required in SWTOR in general outside of flashpoints (dungeons), Ops (raids) or PvP.

Braffin · November 2023

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

but in swtor overland content is definitely more meaningful difficulty-wise than in eso. There are whole parts of every overland map flagged as "Heroic" content and you shouldn't even try attack a WB on your own. You're dead then for sure.

Soloing a worldboss in SWTOR is impossible but then they have only one world boss per planet. Heroic areas can generally be done solo as long as you have companion with reasonably high approval rating. Before they scaled the player down to the planet's level, some word bosses were actually possible to solo (like those on the capital worlds).

Also, SWTOR doesn't require players to actively dodge/block and even interrupts are rarely required in SWTOR in general outside of flashpoints (dungeons), Ops (raids) or PvP.

Exactly, it's impossible to solo a WB in swtor, while Heroic areas can be done easily on your own if some decent build is run.

In comparison: In eso every WB is possible to solo, if you build for the encounter and put in enough effort, while an aequivalent to Heroic areas doesn't exist at all. Maybe it's also worth to mention, that said Heroic missions are the majority of dailies over there and gear (as well as rewards) are heavily skill-gated.

So, please tell me, how is swtor more "casual-friendly" (it's a bad term, but I assume you know what I mean) than eso by any means?

Kendaric · November 2023

You don't need a decent build to run a heroic, just an approval rating of 10+ with your companion. I always run pure RP builds and I have zero issues with most heroics in SWTOR. There a few I won't do, as they take me too long though.
The "skill gated gear" doesn't really exist anymore, unless you absolutely must have BIS gear which does require the hardest content.
Also, world bosses in SWTOR aren't really needed for anything outside of specific events. But unlike ESO's world bosses they don't drop anything special in general (there may be 1 or 2 that can drop a mount or a pet, but most just drop normal gear).

Where in ESO, as you said, you have to use a very specific build if you want to solo wbs (and a lot of CP). The same applies if you want to solo dungeons apart from Fungal Grotto I or Spindleclutch I.

I'd say in terms of "casual-friendliness" they're about equal. SWTOR has a solo-mode for most dungeons though and the high-level gear is mostly account-bound.

Braffin · November 2023

Kendaric wrote: »

You don't need a decent build to run a heroic, just an approval rating of 10+ with your companion. I always run pure RP builds and I have zero issues with most heroics in SWTOR. There a few I won't do, as they take me too long though.
The "skill gated gear" doesn't really exist anymore, unless you absolutely must have BIS gear which does require the hardest content.
Also, world bosses in SWTOR aren't really needed for anything outside of specific events. But unlike ESO's world bosses they don't drop anything special in general (there may be 1 or 2 that can drop a mount or a pet, but most just drop normal gear).

Where in ESO, as you said, you have to use a very specific build if you want to solo wbs (and a lot of CP). The same applies if you want to solo dungeons apart from Fungal Grotto I or Spindleclutch I.

I'd say in terms of "casual-friendliness" they're about equal. SWTOR has a solo-mode for most dungeons though and the high-level gear is mostly account-bound.

Neither you need a "very specific" build to solo a WB in eso nor do most of them drop anything special at all.

Sure, you'll have to use a build with some general idea behind it, instead of randomly mixmashing skills, gear, CP and attributes around. But that's not entirely different from swtor. Try to do your heroic with 274er green equipment. That will be fun, I assure you. 😆

As far as rewards go (whatever they have to do with a discussion about difficulty): There aren't exclusive drops for WBs in eso. Yes, you get weapons, but you also get those in the corresponding PD and may transmute them once collected.

Then we have motif drops in some areas. For most areas it's either "kill bosses" (not only WB, only better chances there) or "farm chests". A reasonable choice, not excluding anyone. Additionally there are always guild traders filled with motifs to the brim (so a lot of players are farming them it seems).

Gear is also entirely account-bound in eso, so I don't see your point here.

I agree on the story-mode tho, that would be a nice addition (without any group-related rewards of course).

Honestly, I play both (or "played" regarding swtor) and eso is definitely much more easier, if you use the options at hand.

Sure, if someone for example can't be bothered with using any magicka-based ability because they "don't like how magic is done", they will have a more challenging time playing the game. It's practically nerfing oneself. But that's not something that can be balanced around without harming the overall gaming experience.

Ph1p · November 2023

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

It seems to me, that we could solve all community problems by seperating casuals and vets.

Players are already separated by different difficulty levels for all dungeons, arenas, and trials. There are different levels of overland, public dungeons, world events, etc. depending on the zone. Players also self-separate into different guilds and organize runs with different levels of ambition and requirements. Why force a community divide beyond this using server architecture?

Also, what players consider difficult changes over time. When I started with ESO, even some normal vanilla dungeons seemed hard. My idea of endgame was to try out some veteran trials and see how it goes. Fast forward a few years and I'm going for hard modes. Having an easy server will just result in a wave of server migration requests down the line, once players decide they want to keep progressing or see that the "veteran" server has different rewards.

Kendaric · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Neither you need a "very specific" build to solo a WB in eso nor do most of them drop anything special at all.

Sure, you'll have to use a build with some general idea behind it, instead of randomly mixmashing skills, gear, CP and attributes around. But that's not entirely different from swtor. Try to do your heroic with 274er green equipment. That will be fun, I assure you. 😆

On most planets that gear would be totally fine due to the downscaling. Will it be fun? No, it will be a very tedious slog. But is it doable? Absolutely.

As far as rewards go (whatever they have to do with a discussion about difficulty): There aren't exclusive drops for WBs in eso. Yes, you get weapons, but you also get those in the corresponding PD and may transmute them once collected.

Then we have motif drops in some areas. For most areas it's either "kill bosses" (not only WB, only better chances there) or "farm chests". A reasonable choice, not excluding anyone. Additionally there are always guild traders filled with motifs to the brim (so a lot of players are farming them it seems).

If you want to complete the sticker book in a reasonable time, you'll have to world bosses. Which isn't the problem, because I never had problems finding a player to help (no, I still can't solo wbs and I never will).

I agree on the story-mode tho, that would be a nice addition (without any group-related rewards of course).

Good to see we're on the same page here.

Honestly, I play both (or "played" regarding swtor) and eso is definitely much more easier, if you use the options at hand.

I still find SWTOR to be far easier, which may be related to the combat system. ESO combat is a nightmare for me.

Sure, if someone for example can't be bothered with using any magicka-based ability because they "don't like how magic is done", they will have a more challenging time playing the game. It's practically nerfing oneself. But that's not something that can be balanced around without harming the overall gaming experience.

That is more or less how I play most of characters

I'm aware that I'm gimping myself with that, but to me having fun is more important than being effective.

Braffin · November 2023

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Neither you need a "very specific" build to solo a WB in eso nor do most of them drop anything special at all.

Sure, you'll have to use a build with some general idea behind it, instead of randomly mixmashing skills, gear, CP and attributes around. But that's not entirely different from swtor. Try to do your heroic with 274er green equipment. That will be fun, I assure you. 😆

On most planets that gear would be totally fine due to the downscaling. Will it be fun? No, it will be a very tedious slog. But is it doable? Absolutely.

As far as rewards go (whatever they have to do with a discussion about difficulty): There aren't exclusive drops for WBs in eso. Yes, you get weapons, but you also get those in the corresponding PD and may transmute them once collected.

Then we have motif drops in some areas. For most areas it's either "kill bosses" (not only WB, only better chances there) or "farm chests". A reasonable choice, not excluding anyone. Additionally there are always guild traders filled with motifs to the brim (so a lot of players are farming them it seems).

If you want to complete the sticker book in a reasonable time, you'll have to world bosses. Which isn't the problem, because I never had problems finding a player to help (no, I still can't solo wbs and I never will).

I agree on the story-mode tho, that would be a nice addition (without any group-related rewards of course).

Good to see we're on the same page here.

Honestly, I play both (or "played" regarding swtor) and eso is definitely much more easier, if you use the options at hand.

I still find SWTOR to be far easier, which may be related to the combat system. ESO combat is a nightmare for me.

Sure, if someone for example can't be bothered with using any magicka-based ability because they "don't like how magic is done", they will have a more challenging time playing the game. It's practically nerfing oneself. But that's not something that can be balanced around without harming the overall gaming experience.

That is more or less how I play most of characters

I'm aware that I'm gimping myself with that, but to me having fun is more important than being effective.

If you want to complete the sticker book in a reasonable time, you'll have to world bosses. Which isn't the problem, because I never had problems finding a player to help (no, I still can't solo wbs and I never will).

Honestly, it's much quicker to complete the stickerbook in a reasonable time by simply running through the respective PD a few times and killing all the bosses there.

I still find SWTOR to be far easier, which may be related to the combat system. ESO combat is a nightmare for me.

That's absolutely a matter of taste. I for myself left swtor mainly due to the outdated combat system.

I'm aware that I'm gimping myself with that, but to me having fun is more important than being effective.

Nobody is asking you to stop having fun. Others simply want the same and couldn't anymore if the game were adjusted to players, which outright refuse to use all the tools at their hands.

I'm fine with that, really. Games are meant to be fun. All I ask for, is that those players respect their own decisions. They gimped themselves (as you call it). That's not the games fault, not the developer's fault and definitely not the community's fault. "Spoon your own soup" one may say.

I also think it's not asked too much, that players explain in honesty why they were failing content they intended to complete when they ask for nerfs across the board. It's always "age" and "disability" (I don't deny that's a factor tho.) in those discussions, while essential information (like once again for example the refusal to even periodically use approximately 50% of this game's skills) is spared out on principle.

That's nothing more than framing imo and a (hopefully failed) attempt to feed the developers with incorrect data.

Kendaric · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

I also think it's not asked too much, that players explain in honesty why they were failing content they intended to complete when they ask for nerfs across the board. It's always "age" and "disability" (I don't deny that's a factor tho.) in those discussions, while essential information (like once again for example the refusal to even periodically use approximately 50% of this game's skills) is spared out on principle.

That's nothing more than framing imo and a (hopefully failed) attempt to feed the developers with incorrect data.

That's because in many cases bad reflexes due to old age and/or disabilities are the main issue. Things like skill use, etc, while a factor of course, are less of an issue for those of us who suffer from disabilities.

In my case it's mostly a combination of old age and disability due to a stroke, my reliance on weapon skills is less of a problem when doing content. I simply can't light attack weave due to having a paralyzed hand, heavy attack spam isn't my thing (and I don't have the ring anyway) and I simply no longer have the reflexes to react to many combat prompts in time.
Funnily ESO would be a lot easier to play for me if I could assign keys to turning rather than strafing only. But that's not possible sadly.

But knowing that, I tend not to try soloing world boss or any dungeons besides FG and SC...

Braffin · November 2023

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I also think it's not asked too much, that players explain in honesty why they were failing content they intended to complete when they ask for nerfs across the board. It's always "age" and "disability" (I don't deny that's a factor tho.) in those discussions, while essential information (like once again for example the refusal to even periodically use approximately 50% of this game's skills) is spared out on principle.

That's nothing more than framing imo and a (hopefully failed) attempt to feed the developers with incorrect data.

That's because in many cases bad reflexes due to old age and/or disabilities are the main issue. Things like skill use, etc, while a factor of course, are less of an issue for those of us who suffer from disabilities.

In my case it's mostly a combination of old age and disability due to a stroke, my reliance on weapon skills is less of a problem when doing content. I simply can't light attack weave due to having a paralyzed hand, heavy attack spam isn't my thing (and I don't have the ring anyway) and I simply no longer have the reflexes to react to many combat prompts in time.
Funnily ESO would be a lot easier to play for me if I could assign keys to turning rather than strafing only. But that's not possible sadly.

But knowing that, I tend not to try soloing world boss or any dungeons besides FG and SC...

No, that's not true at all: All factors have to be taken in account to proper analyze why a player has a hard time in specific content.

Excluding all factors one doesn't like or doesn't want to change anyways before even looking into the issues, will surely earn the desired results.

But if these results match reality is a completely different cup of tea.

But well, maybe I'm wrong: Simply tell me for example which encounter in eso (outside of vet trials, arenas and dungeons, as you don't do them) forces us to block within seconds and punishes earlier blocking by default?

Honestly, I don't know a single one. We are free to blockcast our skills all day long if we like to do so (much easier on a magicka-based btw, as you can use stam exclusively for defenses).

And please spare me the weaving-tale. It's not needed for simple completion, regardless of build. All the people claiming otherwise, didn't show proof. Not in 10 years.

Most deaths don't happen due to lack of reflexes but due to lack of tactic and patience. That's not a reason for nerfs tho, those player's demands should be outright ignored.

Most players complaining about difficulty have one common notion: Their builds (which are holding them back) are always "fine", they refuse any offered help and want things nerfed to move on to things more interesting to them anyways.

Absolutely no reason to kill off the fun of the rest of the playerbase, which is interested in said content and wants to play it as intended.

araminta63 · November 2023

Jierdanit wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

A lot of this is being forced from endgame. Not everything is actually dps race.

Things will improve once endgame players don't have an monopoly on endgame. Like how many millions does it cost for even veteran hrc..

It won't be perfect but after end game loses their iron grip on trials then we can have better diversity . It's actually what happened to dungeons. It used to be if you are the wrong race then kick

Trials are the PvE Endgame for eso. If you don't like the way people do them then form your own group or stay out of them.

If you are not willing to get an Endgame pve build don't expect others to let you take part in Endgame pve.

... and I don't.

I don't do trials. I don't pvp. I don't do group dungeons that I can't solo.

I don't even like to group for the darned Crow [snip]. All I want is to complete the quest. I don't need a lecture on how stupid it is to be an arcanist and not use that stupid beam attack. [snip] The crow is dead. No players died. Why the heck are you still sending me tells 30 mins later when I haven't responded? Oh wait.. I can't even /ignore you because my list is full from all the gold sellers I've reported.

My point is that other than twice a year for Pelinel celebrations I do not intrude on the 'real' players of this game. I'm a casual and I know it.

So [snip] just leave me alone.

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

araminta63 · November 2023

barney2525 wrote: »

Why should we, as causals, who focus on PVE, (such as myself), be able to be as 'skilled' and competent in PvP combat as those who have worked for years perfecting their craft, when we have not put in that time and effort to become that skilled ?

Anybody Can be great and skilled in combat. ... IF they decide to put in the work and effort required. And part of that work is having the character die ( or is it dye? ) many times as they are developing the skill.

Actually.. this is patently not true. I'm 60 years old. My physical ability to smash the keyboard is not what it used to be. Neither is my mental acuity. It takes me a few seconds to make connections... so I don't react as quickly in chaotic situations as I used to.

There is no way I can parse out the numbers they insist on. But that's ok because I don't need to do end game.

I just don't need to be crapped on for it.

YetAnotherLinuxUser · November 2023

pretty sure eso was never intended to be an esports competition. we have vet and normal dungeons and vet and normal trials do we really need vet and normal servers?

If we are going to seperate people into vet and casuals then we have to assert that vet players are the one acting with toxicity to the casuals for not being like them? Well that's for sure i will never desire to be a vet player so long as that's true. I was under the impression that toxic behavior was against TOS.... ie teabagging and mudballing and chasing people around a dungeon spamming skills on them.. or anything that is done to bully others. What other ways people are being toxic is surely against tos. Even though i am an experienced player and i could do trials and probably vet trials if i wanted to, i wont and i wont because of the reputation of vet players dictating to others h. I would much rather spend my time creating accounts and playing until i have had my fill of the toxic players that seem to gravitate towards me then start over on a new account and make another grand master crafter etc... must have done that at least 5 times now. I will continue to play moslty solo and maybe i'll hold onto a few players across those accounts.

Kendaric · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

No, that's not true at all: All factors have to be taken in account to proper analyze why a player has a hard time in specific content.

Excluding all factors one doesn't like or doesn't want to change anyways before even looking into the issues, will surely earn the desired results.

But if these results match reality is a completely different cup of tea.

But well, maybe I'm wrong: Simply tell me for example which encounter in eso (outside of vet trials, arenas and dungeons, as you don't do them) forces us to block within seconds and punishes earlier blocking by default?

Honestly, I don't know a single one. We are free to blockcast our skills all day long if we like to do so (much easier on a magicka-based btw, as you can use stam exclusively for defenses).

And please spare me the weaving-tale. It's not needed for simple completion, regardless of build. All the people claiming otherwise, didn't show proof. Not in 10 years.

Most deaths don't happen due to lack of reflexes but due to lack of tactic and patience. That's not a reason for nerfs tho, those player's demands should be outright ignored.

Most players complaining about difficulty have one common notion: Their builds (which are holding them back) are always "fine", they refuse any offered help and want things nerfed to move on to things more interesting to them anyways.

Absolutely no reason to kill off the fun of the rest of the playerbase, which is interested in said content and wants to play it as intended.

I can't really blockcast...since I'm forced to play with only hand (see above for reasons). Mostly I have to dodge roll away from enemies, as I can't switch between keyboard and mouse fast enough. And while I've tried to set block to my keyboard, I can't get used to it.

Weaving is not needed in the content I do, true enough. From what I gather though, it is needed for more difficult content (whether that's true or not I don't know obviously).

Also, please to do not take me as someone calling for nerfs. I'm absolutely fine with needing the help of others to do a wb or public dungeon group event (though most of them I can solo). I've been playing purely stamina-based weapon characters since release, so I know what I'm getting

(yes, I fought Doshia and Molag Bal when they were actually difficult, though that before my stroke).

Braffin · November 2023

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

No, that's not true at all: All factors have to be taken in account to proper analyze why a player has a hard time in specific content.

Excluding all factors one doesn't like or doesn't want to change anyways before even looking into the issues, will surely earn the desired results.

But if these results match reality is a completely different cup of tea.

But well, maybe I'm wrong: Simply tell me for example which encounter in eso (outside of vet trials, arenas and dungeons, as you don't do them) forces us to block within seconds and punishes earlier blocking by default?

Honestly, I don't know a single one. We are free to blockcast our skills all day long if we like to do so (much easier on a magicka-based btw, as you can use stam exclusively for defenses).

And please spare me the weaving-tale. It's not needed for simple completion, regardless of build. All the people claiming otherwise, didn't show proof. Not in 10 years.

Most deaths don't happen due to lack of reflexes but due to lack of tactic and patience. That's not a reason for nerfs tho, those player's demands should be outright ignored.

Most players complaining about difficulty have one common notion: Their builds (which are holding them back) are always "fine", they refuse any offered help and want things nerfed to move on to things more interesting to them anyways.

Absolutely no reason to kill off the fun of the rest of the playerbase, which is interested in said content and wants to play it as intended.

I can't really blockcast...since I'm forced to play with only hand (see above for reasons). Mostly I have to dodge roll away from enemies, as I can't switch between keyboard and mouse fast enough. And while I've tried to set block to my keyboard, I can't get used to it.

Weaving is not needed in the content I do, true enough. From what I gather though, it is needed for more difficult content (whether that's true or not I don't know obviously).

Also, please to do not take me as someone calling for nerfs. I'm absolutely fine with needing the help of others to do a wb or public dungeon group event (though most of them I can solo). I've been playing purely stamina-based weapon characters since release, so I know what I'm getting (yes, I fought Doshia and Molag Bal when they were actually difficult, though that before my stroke).

Fair enough. Being restricted to using only one hand is a very special case tho.

Honestly, I don't know if there are any game controllers, which could help you with this.

What I can offer tho: If you ever need someone to help you out with something on pc eu, don't hesitate to summon me and I'll gladly help. That's how members of a healthy community should treat each other imo.

Warhawke_80 · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The blame isn't on Elitist players....though their attitudes certainly doesn't help.

The Blame lies with the devs and the absolute gulf they created between the casual and hardcore players, in terms of skill, in terms of rewards, and now in terms of new repeatable content...and nothing demonstrates that as much as EA.

One of the devs at this years Blizzcon said something that caused the crowd to erupt in applause. "Telling players they aren't working hard enough is basically giving the finger to the majority of our customers, everyone should have rewarding viable content, not just content for the 5%" The new expansion is completely reworking overland content.

I just think the devs needs to reexamine their priorities if all of the elder game is for 5% of the player base the other 95% isn't going to stick around, especially since games like FFXIV, WoW, SWTOR and several upcoming MMO's ...have or are... completely changing their priorities

It's exactly the other way around: 95% of this game's content (overland zones) are far too easy, thus excluding a big chunk of the playerbase. Most newer players leave the game after they realize, that there won't be any meaningful challenge for them anymore (besides raiding and PvP. But not everyone is into that.). Honestly, eso mostly plays like a TellTale not an mmo at all.

Now Zos reacted and tried to put in a challenge for everyone. It starts out easy, as Arc 1 is meant for the most casual players.

As a challenge.

Because hoards of players demanded it.

I respect, if someone isn't interested in this game mode. It's not a mandatory part of the game tho, but an offer. There is always the possibility to stay out of it.

On a sidenote: I can't tell for FF XIV or WoW, but in swtor overland content is definitely more meaningful difficulty-wise than in eso. There are whole parts of every overland map flagged as "Heroic" content and you shouldn't even try attacking a WB on your own. You're dead then for sure.

Respectfully...I think it was more of a vocal minority but that isn't my point...no one wants to take anything away from Vet players but letting the masses have certain thing Vets have isn't diminishing their achievements...Preach just did a awesome interview with Ion Hazzikostas where he explains this philosophy and why Blizzard is killing the "Meaningful content only for the 4%" philosophy...he flat out said that if they don't WoW will go broke.

So both sides should stop butting heads...no one wants to take away your challenging content or your Uber shinies....but the 96% needs to have meaningful content too instead of a phoned in DLC that we have to pay forty bucks for.

Hell make Delevs and Public Dungeons more meaningful, give us world quest that are epic in scope takes a long time to complete will give us mid or a bit higher tier sets that beats the devs hearing this ever growing din of complaints and throwing up their hands and saying here....now any two people can do all dungeons just with their companions (Yes I'm aware that some l33t people can solo them but I'm talking reality here ) lets start working together for a solution other than.

"This is my shiney and you can't have it you filthy casual" ( that moniker has some very disturbing origins that your aren't even allow to mention on most forums so it remains.)

I hope this reply dosen't get me censored...what I'm writing here is heartfelt if we could just come together on common ground this game would blow any other MMO out of the water....we all love this game, but if we remain like this neither one of us is going to get what we want.

@ZOS_Kevin I tried really hard to stay in the lines on this post, if you could tell me where I strayed I'll do my best to reword it.

Braffin · November 2023

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The blame isn't on Elitist players....though their attitudes certainly doesn't help.

The Blame lies with the devs and the absolute gulf they created between the casual and hardcore players, in terms of skill, in terms of rewards, and now in terms of new repeatable content...and nothing demonstrates that as much as EA.

One of the devs at this years Blizzcon said something that caused the crowd to erupt in applause. "Telling players they aren't working hard enough is basically giving the finger to the majority of our customers, everyone should have rewarding viable content, not just content for the 5%" The new expansion is completely reworking overland content.

I just think the devs needs to reexamine their priorities if all of the elder game is for 5% of the player base the other 95% isn't going to stick around, especially since games like FFXIV, WoW, SWTOR and several upcoming MMO's ...have or are... completely changing their priorities

It's exactly the other way around: 95% of this game's content (overland zones) are far too easy, thus excluding a big chunk of the playerbase. Most newer players leave the game after they realize, that there won't be any meaningful challenge for them anymore (besides raiding and PvP. But not everyone is into that.). Honestly, eso mostly plays like a TellTale not an mmo at all.

Now Zos reacted and tried to put in a challenge for everyone. It starts out easy, as Arc 1 is meant for the most casual players.

As a challenge.

Because hoards of players demanded it.

I respect, if someone isn't interested in this game mode. It's not a mandatory part of the game tho, but an offer. There is always the possibility to stay out of it.

On a sidenote: I can't tell for FF XIV or WoW, but in swtor overland content is definitely more meaningful difficulty-wise than in eso. There are whole parts of every overland map flagged as "Heroic" content and you shouldn't even try attacking a WB on your own. You're dead then for sure.

Respectfully...I think it was more of a vocal minority but that isn't my point...no one wants to take anything away from Vet players but letting the masses have certain thing Vets have isn't diminishing their achievements...Preach just did a awesome interview with Ion Hazzikostas where he explains this philosophy and why Blizzard is killing the "Meaningful content only for the 4%" philosophy...he flat out said that if they don't WoW will go broke.

So both sides should stop butting heads...no one wants to take away your challenging content or your Uber shinies....but the 96% needs to have meaningful content too instead of a phoned in DLC that we have to pay forty bucks for.

Hell make Delevs and Public Dungeons more meaningful, give us world quest that are epic in scope takes a long time to complete will give us mid or a bit higher tier sets that beats the devs hearing this ever growing din of complaints and throwing up their hands and saying here....now any two people can do all dungeons just with their companions (Yes I'm aware that some l33t people can solo them but I'm talking reality here ) lets start working together for a solution other than.

"This is my shiney and you can't have it you filthy casual" ( that moniker has some very disturbing origins that your aren't even allow to mention on most forums so it remains.)

I hope this reply dosen't get me censored...what I'm writing here is heartfelt if we could just come together on common ground this game would blow any other MMO out of the water....we all love this game, but if we remain like this neither one of us is going to get what we want.

@ZOS_Kevin I tried really hard to stay in the lines on this post, if you could tell me where I strayed I'll do my best to reword it.

Any proof for your claims regarding 4%-ers and masses of players not interested in any challenge?

But fine, let's talk about reality:

Reality is, that there is a lot of content already split between normal and veteran mode, so everyone may get the full experience of the content, while playing at the respective difficulty one feels comfortable with. But that is not enough, and not the "Elitists" are demanding any changes here. The game has to become easier and easier till the last trifecta can be done by a completely clueless player with a lvl 4 toon straight out of the tutorial. (If you don't believe me, those demands were at least made for EA in all seriousness).

Another reality is, that veteran overland was mainly opposed by more casual players with arguments like: "Dont split the playerbase.", "Those playing vet would get better rewards, so I'm against it." "If all vets play in their own instance, nobody is here to help with difficult encounters anymore."

The 98% you're talking about (I personally think there aren't more than 20%, which are only interested in overland, the easiest content at our hands.) already own 98% of this game, namely every zone except Cyrodiil, IC and maybe Craglorn (I doubt the last being a issue tho.).

But yeah, let's work together on a solution: I always voted for a veteran overland instance but I'm willing to let that go, as I see EA as an attempt to solve exactly the issues you're talking about. EA is meant for people looking for a challenge, regardless of skill. Arc 1 is a offer especially to more casual players, which nonetheless are interested in improving and progression. Can you let that be?

Yes, for once players, which aren't interested in more meaningful content weren't catered to. Do you think that comes out of the blue? No, zos is simply reacting to feedback and internal data.

It would also be helpful, if words like "Elitist" "gatekeeping" and "filthy casual" weren't used anymore. I find that insulting tbh and will react accordingly. I advise you to watch these forums closely, all these talk is mainly brought up by the audience you call "casual", not the "Elitists".

PS: If percentages of players aren't your point, as you say in your first paragraph, why do use exactly that as argument in the consecutive text? I don't think that's helpful.

EdjeSwift · November 2023

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Respectfully...I think it was more of a vocal minority but that isn't my point...no one wants to take anything away from Vet players but letting the masses have certain thing Vets have isn't diminishing their achievements...Preach just did a awesome interview with Ion Hazzikostas where he explains this philosophy and why Blizzard is killing the "Meaningful content only for the 4%" philosophy...he flat out said that if they don't WoW will go broke.

So both sides should stop butting heads...no one wants to take away your challenging content or your Uber shinies....but the 96% needs to have meaningful content too instead of a phoned in DLC that we have to pay forty bucks for.

Hell make Delevs and Public Dungeons more meaningful, give us world quest that are epic in scope takes a long time to complete will give us mid or a bit higher tier sets that beats the devs hearing this ever growing din of complaints and throwing up their hands and saying here....now any two people can do all dungeons just with their companions (Yes I'm aware that some l33t people can solo them but I'm talking reality here ) lets start working together for a solution other than.

"This is my shiney and you can't have it you filthy casual" ( that moniker has some very disturbing origins that your aren't even allow to mention on most forums so it remains.)

I hope this reply dosen't get me censored...what I'm writing here is heartfelt if we could just come together on common ground this game would blow any other MMO out of the water....we all love this game, but if we remain like this neither one of us is going to get what we want.

@ZOS_Kevin I tried really hard to stay in the lines on this post, if you could tell me where I strayed I'll do my best to reword it.

I respectfully must disagree with this post.

You argue that we don't get "meaningful" content with every DLC, but call me crazy, but we get the MAJORITY of effort put towards the non-vet content, we get large overarching stories with myriads of side quests and hundreds, if not thousands, of recorded voice lines for our "phoned in DLC".

You ask for more meaningful content but then circle back to wanting higher tier sets, my question is why? The content you're doing should reflect the loot you get. If I'm doing overland content, I don't want trial gear which "wastes" a bonus slot with "Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 5%." which is content I wouldn't be doing if I was an overland dedicated player.

I agree a lot of overworld content is simple, but it's not simple for everyone, a lot of players forget where we are in the state of the game, power creep is real, in all aspects. However, fresh player, no CP, no access to crafted gear, little to no gold revenue, to them that public dungeon you think is a joke is a challenge. Heck, when I was in Telvanni leveling up my arcanist, I saw many people ask for help/complain about the public dungeon in Gorne.

Furthermore, there are "normal" and "veteran" versions of all the dungeons and trials out there, save the Endless Archive, so if you wanted to challenge yourself you start there and work your way up until you're satisfied with your progression. They provide nearly the same loot with the "perfected" sets from certain veteran dungeons being slightly better, and the monster helms being a reward for vet.

I do agree some content is too easy, but then again, I have years of experience, CP and gear to back me up. Introduce a brand new player to the game without that and that same content I can breeze through suddenly becomes not so easy.

Warhawke_80 · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The blame isn't on Elitist players....though their attitudes certainly doesn't help.

The Blame lies with the devs and the absolute gulf they created between the casual and hardcore players, in terms of skill, in terms of rewards, and now in terms of new repeatable content...and nothing demonstrates that as much as EA.

One of the devs at this years Blizzcon said something that caused the crowd to erupt in applause. "Telling players they aren't working hard enough is basically giving the finger to the majority of our customers, everyone should have rewarding viable content, not just content for the 5%" The new expansion is completely reworking overland content.

I just think the devs needs to reexamine their priorities if all of the elder game is for 5% of the player base the other 95% isn't going to stick around, especially since games like FFXIV, WoW, SWTOR and several upcoming MMO's ...have or are... completely changing their priorities

It's exactly the other way around: 95% of this game's content (overland zones) are far too easy, thus excluding a big chunk of the playerbase. Most newer players leave the game after they realize, that there won't be any meaningful challenge for them anymore (besides raiding and PvP. But not everyone is into that.). Honestly, eso mostly plays like a TellTale not an mmo at all.

Now Zos reacted and tried to put in a challenge for everyone. It starts out easy, as Arc 1 is meant for the most casual players.

As a challenge.

Because hoards of players demanded it.

I respect, if someone isn't interested in this game mode. It's not a mandatory part of the game tho, but an offer. There is always the possibility to stay out of it.

On a sidenote: I can't tell for FF XIV or WoW, but in swtor overland content is definitely more meaningful difficulty-wise than in eso. There are whole parts of every overland map flagged as "Heroic" content and you shouldn't even try attacking a WB on your own. You're dead then for sure.

Respectfully...I think it was more of a vocal minority but that isn't my point...no one wants to take anything away from Vet players but letting the masses have certain thing Vets have isn't diminishing their achievements...Preach just did a awesome interview with Ion Hazzikostas where he explains this philosophy and why Blizzard is killing the "Meaningful content only for the 4%" philosophy...he flat out said that if they don't WoW will go broke.

So both sides should stop butting heads...no one wants to take away your challenging content or your Uber shinies....but the 96% needs to have meaningful content too instead of a phoned in DLC that we have to pay forty bucks for.

Hell make Delevs and Public Dungeons more meaningful, give us world quest that are epic in scope takes a long time to complete will give us mid or a bit higher tier sets that beats the devs hearing this ever growing din of complaints and throwing up their hands and saying here....now any two people can do all dungeons just with their companions (Yes I'm aware that some l33t people can solo them but I'm talking reality here ) lets start working together for a solution other than.

"This is my shiney and you can't have it you filthy casual" ( that moniker has some very disturbing origins that your aren't even allow to mention on most forums so it remains.)

I hope this reply dosen't get me censored...what I'm writing here is heartfelt if we could just come together on common ground this game would blow any other MMO out of the water....we all love this game, but if we remain like this neither one of us is going to get what we want.

@ZOS_Kevin I tried really hard to stay in the lines on this post, if you could tell me where I strayed I'll do my best to reword it.

Any proof for your claims regarding 4%-ers and masses of players not interested in any challenge?

But fine, let's talk about reality:

Reality is, that there is a lot of content already split between normal and veteran mode, so everyone may get the full experience of the content, while playing at the respective difficulty one feels comfortable with. But that is not enough, and not the "Elitists" are demanding any changes here. The game has to become easier and easier till the last trifecta can be done by a completely clueless player with a lvl 4 toon straight out of the tutorial. (If you don't believe me, those demands were at least made for EA in all seriousness).

Another reality is, that veteran overland was mainly opposed by more casual players with arguments like: "Dont split the playerbase.", "Those playing vet would get better rewards, so I'm against it." "If all vets play in their own instance, nobody is here to help with difficult encounters anymore."

The 98% you're talking about (I personally think there aren't more than 20%, which are only interested in overland, the easiest content at our hands.) already own 98% of this game, namely every zone except Cyrodiil, IC and maybe Craglorn (I doubt the last being a issue tho.).

But yeah, let's work together on a solution: I always voted for a veteran overland instance but I'm willing to let that go, as I see EA as an attempt to solve exactly the issues you're talking about. EA is meant for people looking for a challenge, regardless of skill. Arc 1 is a offer especially to more casual players, which nonetheless are interested in improving and progression. Can you let that be?

Yes, for once players, which aren't interested in more meaningful content weren't catered to. Do you think that comes out of the blue? No, zos is simply reacting to feedback and internal data.

It would also be helpful, if words like "Elitist" "gatekeeping" and "filthy casual" weren't used anymore. I find that insulting tbh and will react accordingly. I advise you to watch these forums closely, all these talk is mainly brought up by the audience you call "casual", not the "Elitists".

PS: If percentages of players aren't your point, as you say in your first paragraph, why do use exactly that as argument in the consecutive text? I don't think that's helpful.

I don't want to play my percentage is more valid than your percentage...so let table that.

Couple points...if they reacted to feedback and internal data we would have never gotten ToT, we also would not have gotten PVP as the end game when ESO launched...the devs do what they do.

I agree with you on words I actually prefer to call them Competitive vets I don't take casual as an offense but some do...the tag in the thread was using elitist as subject...I used it for clarity...but you're right as full insults Competitive vets can get as nasty as anyone on the forum we both know that and it's not just because they are being attacked, they enjoy feeling superior.

No I'm all for a veteran overland...doing trials and dungeons has to get boring vets need more to do, as far as EA goes let that be ZoS answer to Mythic plus So vets get a lot of what they want.

I think that if the devs would just make content more rewarding for the casuals take delevs for instance they are one and done and that content just lays there unused... give us a mode where we can go 1-4 in a mix of players or players/companions offer quest that have more than just save my silly Brother who got lost reward the player the delve will be instanced and will reward anything from a mid tier/ or slightly higher to a mount or Motif....link these up together to form a major world quest the dungeon actually scales so if you are a badass it's not going to be easy for you..but your reward will be better...how this differs from EA is you can be a casual complete the entire thing and get your basic rewards, and the quests evolve ....making the content evergreen

you can take that philosophy and do a lot with it in game...it takes nothing away from anyone....except oh wow look Bill has a set he can do a vet Dungeon with if he wants.

That is just an example I can come up with fifty more easily....and it it doesn't affect Veteran players in the slightest

Things just don't have to be so divisive

Braffin · November 2023

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The blame isn't on Elitist players....though their attitudes certainly doesn't help.

The Blame lies with the devs and the absolute gulf they created between the casual and hardcore players, in terms of skill, in terms of rewards, and now in terms of new repeatable content...and nothing demonstrates that as much as EA.

One of the devs at this years Blizzcon said something that caused the crowd to erupt in applause. "Telling players they aren't working hard enough is basically giving the finger to the majority of our customers, everyone should have rewarding viable content, not just content for the 5%" The new expansion is completely reworking overland content.

I just think the devs needs to reexamine their priorities if all of the elder game is for 5% of the player base the other 95% isn't going to stick around, especially since games like FFXIV, WoW, SWTOR and several upcoming MMO's ...have or are... completely changing their priorities

It's exactly the other way around: 95% of this game's content (overland zones) are far too easy, thus excluding a big chunk of the playerbase. Most newer players leave the game after they realize, that there won't be any meaningful challenge for them anymore (besides raiding and PvP. But not everyone is into that.). Honestly, eso mostly plays like a TellTale not an mmo at all.

Now Zos reacted and tried to put in a challenge for everyone. It starts out easy, as Arc 1 is meant for the most casual players.

As a challenge.

Because hoards of players demanded it.

I respect, if someone isn't interested in this game mode. It's not a mandatory part of the game tho, but an offer. There is always the possibility to stay out of it.

On a sidenote: I can't tell for FF XIV or WoW, but in swtor overland content is definitely more meaningful difficulty-wise than in eso. There are whole parts of every overland map flagged as "Heroic" content and you shouldn't even try attacking a WB on your own. You're dead then for sure.

Respectfully...I think it was more of a vocal minority but that isn't my point...no one wants to take anything away from Vet players but letting the masses have certain thing Vets have isn't diminishing their achievements...Preach just did a awesome interview with Ion Hazzikostas where he explains this philosophy and why Blizzard is killing the "Meaningful content only for the 4%" philosophy...he flat out said that if they don't WoW will go broke.

So both sides should stop butting heads...no one wants to take away your challenging content or your Uber shinies....but the 96% needs to have meaningful content too instead of a phoned in DLC that we have to pay forty bucks for.

Hell make Delevs and Public Dungeons more meaningful, give us world quest that are epic in scope takes a long time to complete will give us mid or a bit higher tier sets that beats the devs hearing this ever growing din of complaints and throwing up their hands and saying here....now any two people can do all dungeons just with their companions (Yes I'm aware that some l33t people can solo them but I'm talking reality here ) lets start working together for a solution other than.

"This is my shiney and you can't have it you filthy casual" ( that moniker has some very disturbing origins that your aren't even allow to mention on most forums so it remains.)

I hope this reply dosen't get me censored...what I'm writing here is heartfelt if we could just come together on common ground this game would blow any other MMO out of the water....we all love this game, but if we remain like this neither one of us is going to get what we want.

@ZOS_Kevin I tried really hard to stay in the lines on this post, if you could tell me where I strayed I'll do my best to reword it.

Any proof for your claims regarding 4%-ers and masses of players not interested in any challenge?

But fine, let's talk about reality:

Reality is, that there is a lot of content already split between normal and veteran mode, so everyone may get the full experience of the content, while playing at the respective difficulty one feels comfortable with. But that is not enough, and not the "Elitists" are demanding any changes here. The game has to become easier and easier till the last trifecta can be done by a completely clueless player with a lvl 4 toon straight out of the tutorial. (If you don't believe me, those demands were at least made for EA in all seriousness).

Another reality is, that veteran overland was mainly opposed by more casual players with arguments like: "Dont split the playerbase.", "Those playing vet would get better rewards, so I'm against it." "If all vets play in their own instance, nobody is here to help with difficult encounters anymore."

The 98% you're talking about (I personally think there aren't more than 20%, which are only interested in overland, the easiest content at our hands.) already own 98% of this game, namely every zone except Cyrodiil, IC and maybe Craglorn (I doubt the last being a issue tho.).

But yeah, let's work together on a solution: I always voted for a veteran overland instance but I'm willing to let that go, as I see EA as an attempt to solve exactly the issues you're talking about. EA is meant for people looking for a challenge, regardless of skill. Arc 1 is a offer especially to more casual players, which nonetheless are interested in improving and progression. Can you let that be?

Yes, for once players, which aren't interested in more meaningful content weren't catered to. Do you think that comes out of the blue? No, zos is simply reacting to feedback and internal data.

It would also be helpful, if words like "Elitist" "gatekeeping" and "filthy casual" weren't used anymore. I find that insulting tbh and will react accordingly. I advise you to watch these forums closely, all these talk is mainly brought up by the audience you call "casual", not the "Elitists".

PS: If percentages of players aren't your point, as you say in your first paragraph, why do use exactly that as argument in the consecutive text? I don't think that's helpful.

I don't want to play my percentage is more valid than your percentage...so let table that.

Couple points...if they reacted to feedback and internal data we would have never gotten ToT, we also would not have gotten PVP as the end game when ESO launched...the devs do what they do.

I agree with you on words I actually prefer to call them Competitive vets I don't take casual as an offense but some do...the tag in the thread was using elitist as subject...I used it for clarity...but you're right as full insults Competitive vets can get as nasty as anyone on the forum we both know that and it's not just because they are being attacked, they enjoy feeling superior.

No I'm all for a veteran overland...doing trials and dungeons has to get boring vets need more to do, as far as EA goes let that be ZoS answer to Mythic plus So vets get a lot of what they want.

I think that if the devs would just make content more rewarding for the casuals take delevs for instance they are one and done and that content just lays there unused... give us a mode where we can go 1-4 in a mix of players or players/companions offer quest that have more than just save my silly Brother who got lost reward the player the delve will be instanced and will reward anything from a mid tier/ or slightly higher to a mount or Motif....link these up together to form a major world quest the dungeon actually scales so if you are a badass it's not going to be easy for you..but your reward will be better...how this differs from EA is you can be a casual complete the entire thing and get your basic rewards, and the quests evolve ....making the content evergreen

you can take that philosophy and do a lot with it in game...it takes nothing away from anyone....except oh wow look Bill has a set he can do a vet Dungeon with if he wants.

That is just an example I can come up with fifty more easily....and it it doesn't affect Veteran players in the slightest

Things just don't have to be so divisive

As I'm quite sure, that you don't have any data regarding ToT or PvP, I won't comment on that. It's purely speculation on your side.

I agree tho, that some players play mainly for the ability to "flex their achieves" for the sake of feeling superior. Not all veterans see things this way tho (in fact in my progression groups such behaviour isn't tolerated at all. We find it despicable.). Those bad manners aren't related to skill tho, but have their roots in a person's character. Gatekeeping and envy are two sides of the same coin one could say, referring to the same audience, while we others enjoy playing the game.

I also agree with most of your other statements, more content for the various interests is always a nice thing.

I see them trying tho: The delves (at least the dlc ones) you're talking about all have their corresponding dailies, which grant us motifs (with an abysmal drop chance, I agree. But that's not related to difficulty.)
U40 didn't only add EA, but also a bunch of leads to hunt for almost every zone, additions to crafting and a new ToT-deck for those interested in the card game. That's not nothing.

Warhawke_80 · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The blame isn't on Elitist players....though their attitudes certainly doesn't help.

The Blame lies with the devs and the absolute gulf they created between the casual and hardcore players, in terms of skill, in terms of rewards, and now in terms of new repeatable content...and nothing demonstrates that as much as EA.

One of the devs at this years Blizzcon said something that caused the crowd to erupt in applause. "Telling players they aren't working hard enough is basically giving the finger to the majority of our customers, everyone should have rewarding viable content, not just content for the 5%" The new expansion is completely reworking overland content.

I just think the devs needs to reexamine their priorities if all of the elder game is for 5% of the player base the other 95% isn't going to stick around, especially since games like FFXIV, WoW, SWTOR and several upcoming MMO's ...have or are... completely changing their priorities

It's exactly the other way around: 95% of this game's content (overland zones) are far too easy, thus excluding a big chunk of the playerbase. Most newer players leave the game after they realize, that there won't be any meaningful challenge for them anymore (besides raiding and PvP. But not everyone is into that.). Honestly, eso mostly plays like a TellTale not an mmo at all.

Now Zos reacted and tried to put in a challenge for everyone. It starts out easy, as Arc 1 is meant for the most casual players.

As a challenge.

Because hoards of players demanded it.

I respect, if someone isn't interested in this game mode. It's not a mandatory part of the game tho, but an offer. There is always the possibility to stay out of it.

On a sidenote: I can't tell for FF XIV or WoW, but in swtor overland content is definitely more meaningful difficulty-wise than in eso. There are whole parts of every overland map flagged as "Heroic" content and you shouldn't even try attacking a WB on your own. You're dead then for sure.

Respectfully...I think it was more of a vocal minority but that isn't my point...no one wants to take anything away from Vet players but letting the masses have certain thing Vets have isn't diminishing their achievements...Preach just did a awesome interview with Ion Hazzikostas where he explains this philosophy and why Blizzard is killing the "Meaningful content only for the 4%" philosophy...he flat out said that if they don't WoW will go broke.

So both sides should stop butting heads...no one wants to take away your challenging content or your Uber shinies....but the 96% needs to have meaningful content too instead of a phoned in DLC that we have to pay forty bucks for.

Hell make Delevs and Public Dungeons more meaningful, give us world quest that are epic in scope takes a long time to complete will give us mid or a bit higher tier sets that beats the devs hearing this ever growing din of complaints and throwing up their hands and saying here....now any two people can do all dungeons just with their companions (Yes I'm aware that some l33t people can solo them but I'm talking reality here ) lets start working together for a solution other than.

"This is my shiney and you can't have it you filthy casual" ( that moniker has some very disturbing origins that your aren't even allow to mention on most forums so it remains.)

I hope this reply dosen't get me censored...what I'm writing here is heartfelt if we could just come together on common ground this game would blow any other MMO out of the water....we all love this game, but if we remain like this neither one of us is going to get what we want.

@ZOS_Kevin I tried really hard to stay in the lines on this post, if you could tell me where I strayed I'll do my best to reword it.

Any proof for your claims regarding 4%-ers and masses of players not interested in any challenge?

But fine, let's talk about reality:

Reality is, that there is a lot of content already split between normal and veteran mode, so everyone may get the full experience of the content, while playing at the respective difficulty one feels comfortable with. But that is not enough, and not the "Elitists" are demanding any changes here. The game has to become easier and easier till the last trifecta can be done by a completely clueless player with a lvl 4 toon straight out of the tutorial. (If you don't believe me, those demands were at least made for EA in all seriousness).

Another reality is, that veteran overland was mainly opposed by more casual players with arguments like: "Dont split the playerbase.", "Those playing vet would get better rewards, so I'm against it." "If all vets play in their own instance, nobody is here to help with difficult encounters anymore."

The 98% you're talking about (I personally think there aren't more than 20%, which are only interested in overland, the easiest content at our hands.) already own 98% of this game, namely every zone except Cyrodiil, IC and maybe Craglorn (I doubt the last being a issue tho.).

But yeah, let's work together on a solution: I always voted for a veteran overland instance but I'm willing to let that go, as I see EA as an attempt to solve exactly the issues you're talking about. EA is meant for people looking for a challenge, regardless of skill. Arc 1 is a offer especially to more casual players, which nonetheless are interested in improving and progression. Can you let that be?

Yes, for once players, which aren't interested in more meaningful content weren't catered to. Do you think that comes out of the blue? No, zos is simply reacting to feedback and internal data.

It would also be helpful, if words like "Elitist" "gatekeeping" and "filthy casual" weren't used anymore. I find that insulting tbh and will react accordingly. I advise you to watch these forums closely, all these talk is mainly brought up by the audience you call "casual", not the "Elitists".

PS: If percentages of players aren't your point, as you say in your first paragraph, why do use exactly that as argument in the consecutive text? I don't think that's helpful.

I don't want to play my percentage is more valid than your percentage...so let table that.

Couple points...if they reacted to feedback and internal data we would have never gotten ToT, we also would not have gotten PVP as the end game when ESO launched...the devs do what they do.

I agree with you on words I actually prefer to call them Competitive vets I don't take casual as an offense but some do...the tag in the thread was using elitist as subject...I used it for clarity...but you're right as full insults Competitive vets can get as nasty as anyone on the forum we both know that and it's not just because they are being attacked, they enjoy feeling superior.

No I'm all for a veteran overland...doing trials and dungeons has to get boring vets need more to do, as far as EA goes let that be ZoS answer to Mythic plus So vets get a lot of what they want.

I think that if the devs would just make content more rewarding for the casuals take delevs for instance they are one and done and that content just lays there unused... give us a mode where we can go 1-4 in a mix of players or players/companions offer quest that have more than just save my silly Brother who got lost reward the player the delve will be instanced and will reward anything from a mid tier/ or slightly higher to a mount or Motif....link these up together to form a major world quest the dungeon actually scales so if you are a badass it's not going to be easy for you..but your reward will be better...how this differs from EA is you can be a casual complete the entire thing and get your basic rewards, and the quests evolve ....making the content evergreen

you can take that philosophy and do a lot with it in game...it takes nothing away from anyone....except oh wow look Bill has a set he can do a vet Dungeon with if he wants.

That is just an example I can come up with fifty more easily....and it it doesn't affect Veteran players in the slightest

Things just don't have to be so divisive

As I'm quite sure, that you don't have any data regarding ToT or PvP, I won't comment on that. It's purely speculation on your side.

I agree tho, that some players play mainly for the ability to "flex their achieves" for the sake of feeling superior. Not all veterans see things this way tho (in fact in my progression groups such behaviour isn't tolerated at all. We find it despicable.). Those bad manners aren't related to skill tho, but have their roots in a person's character. Gatekeeping and envy are two sides of the same coin one could say, referring to the same audience, while we others enjoy playing the game.

I also agree with most of your other statements, more content for the various interests is always a nice thing.

I see them trying tho: The delves (at least the dlc ones) you're talking about all have their corresponding dailies, which grant us motifs (with an abysmal drop chance, I agree. But that's not related to difficulty.)
U40 didn't only add EA, but also a bunch of leads to hunt for almost every zone, additions to crafting and a new ToT-deck for those interested in the card game. That's not nothing.

In any event I would like to see more of this....instead of criticising each other figure out what each camp wants and go to the devs with a unified voice if casual players backed vets on more challenging overland content maybe they would back us on more rewarding content ....lets face it "Git Gud" is never going to work....I played EQ for decades my guild had several server firsts I have been on both sides, not everyone is skilled and no matter how hard they try they probably aren't going to get much better, besides a lot of folks want to just lose themselves in a fantasy world...not a spreadsheet

I have sympathy for both sides, but I really think if we start pulling together we both will get at least some of what we want.

Braffin · November 2023

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The blame isn't on Elitist players....though their attitudes certainly doesn't help.

The Blame lies with the devs and the absolute gulf they created between the casual and hardcore players, in terms of skill, in terms of rewards, and now in terms of new repeatable content...and nothing demonstrates that as much as EA.

One of the devs at this years Blizzcon said something that caused the crowd to erupt in applause. "Telling players they aren't working hard enough is basically giving the finger to the majority of our customers, everyone should have rewarding viable content, not just content for the 5%" The new expansion is completely reworking overland content.

I just think the devs needs to reexamine their priorities if all of the elder game is for 5% of the player base the other 95% isn't going to stick around, especially since games like FFXIV, WoW, SWTOR and several upcoming MMO's ...have or are... completely changing their priorities

It's exactly the other way around: 95% of this game's content (overland zones) are far too easy, thus excluding a big chunk of the playerbase. Most newer players leave the game after they realize, that there won't be any meaningful challenge for them anymore (besides raiding and PvP. But not everyone is into that.). Honestly, eso mostly plays like a TellTale not an mmo at all.

Now Zos reacted and tried to put in a challenge for everyone. It starts out easy, as Arc 1 is meant for the most casual players.

As a challenge.

Because hoards of players demanded it.

I respect, if someone isn't interested in this game mode. It's not a mandatory part of the game tho, but an offer. There is always the possibility to stay out of it.

On a sidenote: I can't tell for FF XIV or WoW, but in swtor overland content is definitely more meaningful difficulty-wise than in eso. There are whole parts of every overland map flagged as "Heroic" content and you shouldn't even try attacking a WB on your own. You're dead then for sure.

Respectfully...I think it was more of a vocal minority but that isn't my point...no one wants to take anything away from Vet players but letting the masses have certain thing Vets have isn't diminishing their achievements...Preach just did a awesome interview with Ion Hazzikostas where he explains this philosophy and why Blizzard is killing the "Meaningful content only for the 4%" philosophy...he flat out said that if they don't WoW will go broke.

So both sides should stop butting heads...no one wants to take away your challenging content or your Uber shinies....but the 96% needs to have meaningful content too instead of a phoned in DLC that we have to pay forty bucks for.

Hell make Delevs and Public Dungeons more meaningful, give us world quest that are epic in scope takes a long time to complete will give us mid or a bit higher tier sets that beats the devs hearing this ever growing din of complaints and throwing up their hands and saying here....now any two people can do all dungeons just with their companions (Yes I'm aware that some l33t people can solo them but I'm talking reality here ) lets start working together for a solution other than.

"This is my shiney and you can't have it you filthy casual" ( that moniker has some very disturbing origins that your aren't even allow to mention on most forums so it remains.)

I hope this reply dosen't get me censored...what I'm writing here is heartfelt if we could just come together on common ground this game would blow any other MMO out of the water....we all love this game, but if we remain like this neither one of us is going to get what we want.

@ZOS_Kevin I tried really hard to stay in the lines on this post, if you could tell me where I strayed I'll do my best to reword it.

Any proof for your claims regarding 4%-ers and masses of players not interested in any challenge?

But fine, let's talk about reality:

Reality is, that there is a lot of content already split between normal and veteran mode, so everyone may get the full experience of the content, while playing at the respective difficulty one feels comfortable with. But that is not enough, and not the "Elitists" are demanding any changes here. The game has to become easier and easier till the last trifecta can be done by a completely clueless player with a lvl 4 toon straight out of the tutorial. (If you don't believe me, those demands were at least made for EA in all seriousness).

Another reality is, that veteran overland was mainly opposed by more casual players with arguments like: "Dont split the playerbase.", "Those playing vet would get better rewards, so I'm against it." "If all vets play in their own instance, nobody is here to help with difficult encounters anymore."

The 98% you're talking about (I personally think there aren't more than 20%, which are only interested in overland, the easiest content at our hands.) already own 98% of this game, namely every zone except Cyrodiil, IC and maybe Craglorn (I doubt the last being a issue tho.).

But yeah, let's work together on a solution: I always voted for a veteran overland instance but I'm willing to let that go, as I see EA as an attempt to solve exactly the issues you're talking about. EA is meant for people looking for a challenge, regardless of skill. Arc 1 is a offer especially to more casual players, which nonetheless are interested in improving and progression. Can you let that be?

Yes, for once players, which aren't interested in more meaningful content weren't catered to. Do you think that comes out of the blue? No, zos is simply reacting to feedback and internal data.

It would also be helpful, if words like "Elitist" "gatekeeping" and "filthy casual" weren't used anymore. I find that insulting tbh and will react accordingly. I advise you to watch these forums closely, all these talk is mainly brought up by the audience you call "casual", not the "Elitists".

PS: If percentages of players aren't your point, as you say in your first paragraph, why do use exactly that as argument in the consecutive text? I don't think that's helpful.

I don't want to play my percentage is more valid than your percentage...so let table that.

Couple points...if they reacted to feedback and internal data we would have never gotten ToT, we also would not have gotten PVP as the end game when ESO launched...the devs do what they do.

I agree with you on words I actually prefer to call them Competitive vets I don't take casual as an offense but some do...the tag in the thread was using elitist as subject...I used it for clarity...but you're right as full insults Competitive vets can get as nasty as anyone on the forum we both know that and it's not just because they are being attacked, they enjoy feeling superior.

No I'm all for a veteran overland...doing trials and dungeons has to get boring vets need more to do, as far as EA goes let that be ZoS answer to Mythic plus So vets get a lot of what they want.

I think that if the devs would just make content more rewarding for the casuals take delevs for instance they are one and done and that content just lays there unused... give us a mode where we can go 1-4 in a mix of players or players/companions offer quest that have more than just save my silly Brother who got lost reward the player the delve will be instanced and will reward anything from a mid tier/ or slightly higher to a mount or Motif....link these up together to form a major world quest the dungeon actually scales so if you are a badass it's not going to be easy for you..but your reward will be better...how this differs from EA is you can be a casual complete the entire thing and get your basic rewards, and the quests evolve ....making the content evergreen

you can take that philosophy and do a lot with it in game...it takes nothing away from anyone....except oh wow look Bill has a set he can do a vet Dungeon with if he wants.

That is just an example I can come up with fifty more easily....and it it doesn't affect Veteran players in the slightest

Things just don't have to be so divisive

As I'm quite sure, that you don't have any data regarding ToT or PvP, I won't comment on that. It's purely speculation on your side.

I agree tho, that some players play mainly for the ability to "flex their achieves" for the sake of feeling superior. Not all veterans see things this way tho (in fact in my progression groups such behaviour isn't tolerated at all. We find it despicable.). Those bad manners aren't related to skill tho, but have their roots in a person's character. Gatekeeping and envy are two sides of the same coin one could say, referring to the same audience, while we others enjoy playing the game.

I also agree with most of your other statements, more content for the various interests is always a nice thing.

I see them trying tho: The delves (at least the dlc ones) you're talking about all have their corresponding dailies, which grant us motifs (with an abysmal drop chance, I agree. But that's not related to difficulty.)
U40 didn't only add EA, but also a bunch of leads to hunt for almost every zone, additions to crafting and a new ToT-deck for those interested in the card game. That's not nothing.

In any event I would like to see more of this....instead of criticising each other figure out what each camp wants and go to the devs with a unified voice if casual players backed vets on more challenging overland content maybe they would back us on more rewarding content ....lets face it "Git Gud" is never going to work....I played EQ for decades my guild had several server firsts I have been on both sides, not everyone is skilled and no matter how hard they try they probably aren't going to get much better, besides a lot of folks want to just lose themselves in a fantasy world...not a spreadsheet

I have sympathy for both sides, but I really think if we start pulling together we both will get at least some of what we want.

Yeah, I totally agree. It was a nice conversation and I hope we do now understand somewhat better.

Good evening to you!

PS: You have my full sympathy regarding more rewarding content. Would love to see that for all of us.