Too many defensive mechanics in PvP

OnGodiDoDis · September 2023

High HP and armor is good for people...if they're tanks. The issue lies with ZoS implementing many forms of damage mitigation and HP boosts to basically anything. Skills that shouldn't grant armor or mitigation do so. The ease of attaining damage reduction and stacking HP is, and has been, ruining the PvP experience for years.

Cyrodiil is a combat zone between the three alliance superpowers. Lore aside, people MUST die. I myself have a DPS in PvP that has more HP, resistances, and regen than my healer while simultaneously being able to dish out enough power to take people down. How and when did it get to this point? People need to be forced to make decisions in the stats they want. The CP system throws this whole process out the window by providing free sources of HP, armor, and regen. When people don't need to worry about defensive gear or where they get their regen from, they have the privilege of stacking all the damage sets they want with zero repercussions to their defensive capabilities.

I would like to point out that there are also too many heal-boosting sources. We have Major/Minor Mending and Vitality. We also have Healing Received and Done. We ALSO have +% healing bonuses on sets. That is just plain absurd. These buffs are manageable only if they require an action to activate them like Major Mending from a Resto Staff, but not from a Warden for merely healing anything with a Green Balance ability under 40%. Major Protection for slotting Flare? Really? Minor Protection on both bars for slotting Dark Cloak? Really?

There is something we have incessantly asked for for years now and at this point it clearly shows that we are simply being shrugged off: capped cross-healing. This is quite possibly the most important change that we need in Cyrodiil. A limit on the amount of HoTs on people. There are features in the game that can be used to effectively implement this cap: Battle-Spirit and group sizes. Everyone with Battle-Spirit shall be limited to ONE HoT of each kind IF, and only IF, they are in a large group. This shall include healing from non-group members as well. People in large groups shall also receive diminishing returns in healing done/recieved, whatever, per group member. Obviously this won't end Ballgroups or Zergs, but it will limit their power when going against small hordes of solo players or groups. Most importantly, it will not harm or decentivise small-scale grouping or PvE. Ballgroups are already powerful in the sense that they are more coordinated than solo hordes, and it is nearly imposssible for solos to stop them. Not because they're "good" but because they have the advantage of the absurd healing mechanics.

Notice how damage has nothing to do with any of the things I just mentioned. Every single issue with PvP balance derives from poorly planned healing mechanics. Fix the healing problem. If people don't want to die in PvP then they should not be in PvP.

mocap · September 2023

short answer: non cp campaign

OnGodiDoDis · September 2023

mocap wrote: »

short answer: non cp campaign

I take it you did not [snip] read the entirety of the article.

[edited for rude/insulting comment]

Dirt_Rooster · September 2023

mocap wrote: »

short answer: non cp campaign

Glad you enjoy standing alone staring at a dead map.

mocap · September 2023

In non cp campaign players (including ball groups) are dying left and right. So i don't know about what "Too many defensive mechanics in PvP" you are talking about.

In CP campaing defensive is high. Adapt or quit. Simple?

OnGodiDoDis · September 2023

mocap wrote: »

In non cp campaign players (including ball groups) are dying left and right. So i don't know about what "Too many defensive mechanics in PvP" you are talking about.

In CP campaing defensive is high. Adapt or quit. Simple?

[snip] Adapting has nothing to do with anything. There is nothing to adapt to. It probably went over your head that I said I have a tanky character myself. Finish reading the article and make better arguments for the sake of discussion [snip]. To your point of going to non-CP; that doesn't solve the cross-healing problem, or any of the other problems. At all.

[edited for flaming]

Danse_Mayhem · September 2023

Totally agree with OP.

- Vampire is just too far. Undeath granting 30% mitigation is like 3x major protection. Idk how this has been a thing for so long but it’s busted as hell. It should just give major protection whilst under 30% health IMO.
- There’s no incentive to not stack health. As a DPS you can take all of your attributes out of Stan/mag and dump them in health with very little difference to your outgoing damage, but a huge boost to survivability through more hp. Attributes should be more impactful for offence. I also think healing should scale from max stat and not spell damage, just as shields do. That would mean choosing a balance of attributes.
- Not enough heal counters. Defile was gutted years ago and so were all delayed sets like fasallas guile etc, whilst healing only ever got buffed. Even the new Jerall mountain set is useless outside of a duel - Even then, if the other guy has purge, you just kill your own healing instead! Defile needs to be buffed, as do sets like snake in the stars - That set was a cool design, and overturned on PTS but completely gutted before it went to live.
- The speed meta. Unpopular opinion but IMO, Race against time was a terrible addition to ESO. Sure we have swift and wild hunt which require some degree of build sacrifice, but RAT is on every single build out there. A cheap source of major expedition, snare cleanse, snare immunity and minor force buff all in one skill? This basically makes any slow/immobilise skill redundant as if someone doesn’t want to fight you, they pop this and just run, and you aren’t catching up with them unless you have streak. 2-3 people using this around a tower can just outrun a much larger group until they get bored, and if they are left alone after such, they just siege the keep they were at from inside and you lose ground. The morph is way overturned, and either shouldn’t grant minor force, or shouldn’t grant the snare removal / immunity IMO.

With how easy it has become to survive, we have reached a meta where the only way to get kills is either coordinating multiple ultimates to each enemy, or using proc sets to bomb / gank etc. if 2 half decent players meet in cyro and duke it out, it will be a stalemate every time because there just isn’t the damage to kill a well built player by yourself anymore

Turtle_Bot · September 2023

when it comes to defense, the only class that is currently even remotely balanced in that aspect is sorcerer. Streak is strong, but its heals are abysmal with no scaling and completely conflict with the far superior defensive mechanics of blocking, dodge rolling and animation canceling that the other classes can use with their heals.

its heals require a cast time with the ability to be interrupted and cannot be cast while blocking, dodging, sprinting, animation canceling, etc and get canceled if those defensive mechanics are used mid cast.

The issue is that to bring the other classes defensive options down to this balanced level, would have such a huge outcry from the masses because of how used to the current overpowered interactions they have gotten.

It is extremely obvious just how much stronger block casting, dodge roll canceling and sprint canceling a burst heal is compared to using streak then casting a heal with a cast time, especially when you play a sorc, the difference is night and day and the shields just don't make up for those defensive mechanics without being made very overpowered.

bulbousb16_ESO · September 2023

Yep, combat is not lethal enough. Anytime you see 1 person tanking two dozen attackers, you know something is borked.

Necrotech_Master · September 2023

i always thought that was funny, all the runners, in my mind im just thinking "cowards" lol

if im not dying im not trying hard enough lol

Nihilr · September 2023

Agreed, OP:

• Decouple stats so that healing and damage are 2 separate paths. Change healing sets to have more "+healing done" to replace "+weapon/spell damage". People who want both should be able to survive PvE overland and PvP 1v1, but shouldn't be able to 1vX people and still take out other players. It's not skill because it's just sustain+critical builds.

but I'd add:

• Critical healing and critical damage need to be decoupled more by making "critical chance" split into "critical heal chance" and "critical damage chance". No more critical+power = best healers+dps combo.

• Treat named spells/abilities like named buffs and debuffs. In that, you cannot stack the same spell from 3 healers onto 1 player. Those healers need to use different spells/abilities to heal that player from the brink of death. This will make coordinated groups even less powerful, but also will require that they build differently to compliment their team, rather than copying their builds and making bot zergs.

edward_frigidhands · October 2023

The game is not meant to be balanced around 1v1, 2v2 or 1vX (running around rocks and towers to avoid death).

olsborg · October 2023

I agree, blocking and healing is also a problem, its just too easy for too little cost to hold your block button, take 1k dmg instead of 10k and burst heal yourself for 10-15k hp per second. Undeath passive also has a major part to play in this tankmeta thats been going on for ages now, pvp has become bland.

Redguards_Revenge · October 2023

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

High HP and armor is good for people...if they're tanks. The issue lies with ZoS implementing many forms of damage mitigation and HP boosts to basically anything. Skills that shouldn't grant armor or mitigation do so. The ease of attaining damage reduction and stacking HP is, and has been, ruining the PvP experience for years.

Cyrodiil is a combat zone between the three alliance superpowers. Lore aside, people MUST die. I myself have a DPS in PvP that has more HP, resistances, and regen than my healer while simultaneously being able to dish out enough power to take people down. How and when did it get to this point? People need to be forced to make decisions in the stats they want. The CP system throws this whole process out the window by providing free sources of HP, armor, and regen. When people don't need to worry about defensive gear or where they get their regen from, they have the privilege of stacking all the damage sets they want with zero repercussions to their defensive capabilities.

I would like to point out that there are also too many heal-boosting sources. We have Major/Minor Mending and Vitality. We also have Healing Received and Done. We ALSO have +% healing bonuses on sets. That is just plain absurd. These buffs are manageable only if they require an action to activate them like Major Mending from a Resto Staff, but not from a Warden for merely healing anything with a Green Balance ability under 40%. Major Protection for slotting Flare? Really? Minor Protection on both bars for slotting Dark Cloak? Really?

There is something we have incessantly asked for for years now and at this point it clearly shows that we are simply being shrugged off: capped cross-healing. This is quite possibly the most important change that we need in Cyrodiil. A limit on the amount of HoTs on people. There are features in the game that can be used to effectively implement this cap: Battle-Spirit and group sizes. Everyone with Battle-Spirit shall be limited to ONE HoT of each kind IF, and only IF, they are in a large group. This shall include healing from non-group members as well. People in large groups shall also receive diminishing returns in healing done/recieved, whatever, per group member. Obviously this won't end Ballgroups or Zergs, but it will limit their power when going against small hordes of solo players or groups. Most importantly, it will not harm or decentivise small-scale grouping or PvE. Ballgroups are already powerful in the sense that they are more coordinated than solo hordes, and it is nearly imposssible for solos to stop them. Not because they're "good" but because they have the advantage of the absurd healing mechanics.

Notice how damage has nothing to do with any of the things I just mentioned. Every single issue with PvP balance derives from poorly planned healing mechanics. Fix the healing problem. If people don't want to die in PvP then they should not be in PvP.

The truth is, it's not those skills that are causing the problem. It's the sets (mythics + DLC sets + vampire+ arena weapons set up in ways you haven't seen) and CP. In BGs it's a bit more fairer but someone always finds the synergistic cheese that will not be beaten.

You are aware that when your health goes low as a vampire, you get up to 30% damage reduction. Then you have DK ulti that reduces damage to 3% of their health and gives them unlimited penetration that lasts 12 seconds. More than the shield ult which last 6 seconds.

I've been pvping with hunding's rage and briarheart and I am redguard. I don't use mythics, new sets, etc.
I use the front-bar, back-bar set up like 99% of people do in pvp when they use mythics. Except I use it for 1 druids and 1 Trainee for 2k health more. Then use that to put in other resources.

I then switched to NB and now I am dropping everything like flies. I don't use the front bar back bar combo. I need all the damage all at once. Since I can cloak, and I have excessive crit as an NB. I don't need other resources. I am also a vampire as NB.

I use New moon Alcolyte and Oblivion. Then I put on Balorgh (that set is a newer set but it was offered twice now in the golden).

Pop, Pop ,Ulti, Execute, dead.

I forgot to say, that....I don't slot CP at all in CP campaign nor in PVE veteran dungeons. I am just too lazy to go in there and read it.

With that said, I know that I won't be able to kill everyone and that's fine. That's why I switched to NB. It is a class that has all the utiliy for pvp, and is a great start for beginners. I use that to my advantage to turn a basic pvp build into something that can compete. I played templar since beta and quit once they put that crit on both bars. Crit is so important in pvp.

I've found that 56% crit and above is the optimal crit. Anything below 56% has bad reliability. NB heals better than templar in pvp. Crit goes up to 60 or something when one crits with certain moves on NB. Then assassins will automatically fills which does high damage and can easily be activated into the rotation.

Have you played NB yet? Now add mythics and the other stuff and you'll be unstoppable. Remember you must be a vampire as well.

AstroST · October 2023

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Have you played NB yet? Now add mythics and the other stuff and you'll be unstoppable. Remember you must be a vampire as well.

There must be a lot of bad players then because my kill couter stats are full of dead NBs

Dat · October 2023

Idk that I agree that nb is one of the better starters for pvp. I think that class has a decently high skill cap to do well. Some nbs hit like a wet noodle while some gankers can 100 to 0 me with 35k resists in like a second. It's just really interesting to see the good ones vs the bads. I've tried my hand at melee gankblade and I'm literal trash at it lol. But some of these dudes leave me in awe

Redguards_Revenge · October 2023

AstroST wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Have you played NB yet? Now add mythics and the other stuff and you'll be unstoppable. Remember you must be a vampire as well.

There must be a lot of bad players then because my kill couter stats are full of dead NBs

New players tend to get into NB first lol.

fizzylu · October 2023

Cross-healing is a huge issue, cp or no cp. I almost died laughing in a bg today because there was a moment where I stood back, and when I looked at everyone fighting.... there was a solid 8 seconds where everyone in my view just started popping heals off on each other. 10/10 gameplay.