Anti-social players and suggestion for extending pugs algorithm

Daewind · September 2023

Today I was running with a pug. At the start of the dungeon I CLEARLY mentioned that I had the quest of that dungeon.
However, the players kept on rushing as fast as they could. Hence, I tried to keep up and only picked up books (not read them) and quickly looted some bags for recipes but apparently this was still not fast enough and I got kicked without warning in mid of the dungeon and my quest (I have their names, but I don't think I am allowed to list or even report them: appareantly this kind of behavior is ok in the game). As I saw no communication it wouldn't surprise me they were from a same guild. And no, they didn't have to carry me as the dungeon was on normal: I could do my part if they only let me time to grab the books.
I feel pity for other players who may have the misfortune to group with these kind of nasty "players" via a pug in the future. And currently there is no way to avoid this. To me pugs have become more a source of frustration than of fun (not all are like that). Other bad pugs are when some player rushes ahead, die and then give up so you have to start looking for replacement.

I suggest ZOS does something about it by taking into account the desired speed of run as an extra parameter (or quest as extra parameter) when assembling pug's so you don't get "bullied" and left behind (or kicked) because you want to pick up books or do the quest. That would group players with similar dungeon behavior. Because now in a pug there is no way now to know beforehand what kind of players the other ones will be.

I know: some will say: get a guild. However, not all guild members want to do the same dungeon or have done the quest and because guilds are small in comparison with the whole playing world finding a common goal can be very time consuming: it's more likely that you find players in the world who need and want to do the same quest than finding them in 1 or 2 guilds.

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Or they can just make the stupid quests auto advance

Grizzbeorn · September 2023

The new group finder coming with U40 might help with this.

XSTRONG · September 2023

A tip is to read books in random dungeons when its not a dungeon event going.

tincanman · September 2023

There's a new group finder incoming with update 40.

That aside, being vote-kicked by the other 3 group members isn't 'nasty' it's how the system is designed and is working as intended. [snip]

[edited for real-world politics]

Katheriah · September 2023

I hope the new finder will fix this.

I don't usually have issues. I did have one group today where I mentioned at the start I would be opening chests for leads, but they kept pulling me in a bossfight. You don't help me, I don't help you... So I didn't heal them and they wiped.

And since that behaviour was repeated, I just left.

shadyjane62 · September 2023

There is no reward good enough to make me endure the behavior of my fellow players.

Danikat · September 2023

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

The new group finder coming with U40 might help with this.

Agreed.

The current dungeon finder only really works for people who want to rush through the dungeon like they can't stand being in there because it's highly likely you'll get at least 1 of them in the group and (especially in normal mode) it's too easy for them to dominate the run so everyone else is left with no choice but to keep up or miss out.

The new group finder coming in Update 40 will let players set whatever parameters they want for groups (I think it has a free text field to describe what you want) and choose which ones to join. So people who want to get in and out and skip as much as possible can group together (or keep using the current tool) and people who want to actually play the dungeons can make sure they're in a group with like-minded players.

It won't be completely idiot-proof of course. I've used similar tools in other games and you still get some weird anomalies. The strangest one I've had was someone who quit before the first fight even started (not the first boss, literally before we got to the first enemies of any kind) saying we "moved like we're inexperienced". I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, we all ran in the right direction and didn't have time for anything else, but it's their problem. We replaced them and finished the run with no other problems.

But in general it means you can put in a description like "chill run, doing quests and reading books" and anyone who can't handle being in a dungeon that long can simply choose another group to join.

Snamyap · September 2023

Daewind wrote: »

Today I was running with a pug. At the start of the dungeon I CLEARLY mentioned that I had the quest of that dungeon.
However, the players kept on rushing as fast as they could.

Devil's advocate: they are under no obligation to adhere to your desires, they were in the majority. There is also an event going on that rewards doing as many dungeons as quickly as possible. You're quite selfish to try to impose your will on the three other people.

And no, I do not rush through dungeons like this, I solo dungeons, at my own pace, doing the quests on my time, not on someone else's time.

Arcturus · September 2023

Reality hit: you are not and never will be entitled to other people's time.

Also calling people you don't know nasty like this is pretty rude.

Aislinna · September 2023

To be honest, everytime someone posts an "I did nothing wrong and they kicked me" thread, I wonder what the other side of the story is that made 3 other people vote to kick someone from a short term activity.

SeaGtGruff · September 2023

@Daewind, I'm sorry you had to go through that. It's one reason why I prefer to solo dungeons and avoid PUGs.

@Arcturus, the OP said they spoke up at the beginning of the dungeon and were ignored by everyone else. Giving a fellow group member the silent treatment because you're too busy rushing ahead to speed-run the dungeon (bus but apparently not too busy to stop and vote-kick someone) seems "pretty rude" to me.

@Aislinna, I hope you never find yourself vote-kicked from a group where you're the "odd person out" as far as what everyone's goals are. I also hope you've never participated in vote-kicking anyone from a group. Let's hope the new Group Finder tool will help to lessen these sorts of unpleasant experiences.

FantasticFreddie · September 2023

Aislinna wrote: »

To be honest, everytime someone posts an "I did nothing wrong and they kicked me" thread, I wonder what the other side of the story is that made 3 other people vote to kick someone from a short term activity.

Right? I have had universally decent experiences. Some of the vet dungeons have had hit or miss DDs, but none have failed, and I have done 20+ quests this event with randoms pugs and all of them have been super considerate.

Arcturus · September 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

@Daewind, I'm sorry you had to go through that. It's one reason why I prefer to solo dungeons and avoid PUGs.

@Arcturus, the OP said they spoke up at the beginning of the dungeon and were ignored by everyone else. Giving a fellow group member the silent treatment because you're too busy rushing ahead to speed-run the dungeon (bus but apparently not too busy to stop and vote-kick someone) seems "pretty rude" to me.

@Aislinna, I hope you never find yourself vote-kicked from a group where you're the "odd person out" as far as what everyone's goals are. I also hope you've never participated in vote-kicking anyone from a group. Let's hope the new Group Finder tool will help to lessen these sorts of unpleasant experiences.

If OP wants to do a dungeon slowly for the quest or whatever, then they should solo it or make the group themselves.
Expecting random people to lend you their time is absurd.

Aislinna · September 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

@Aislinna, I hope you never find yourself vote-kicked from a group where you're the "odd person out" as far as what everyone's goals are. I also hope you've never participated in vote-kicking anyone from a group.

Trying to chastise and make me seem like the bad person for wondering what the other side of the story may be, is well how it goes for some people.

But no, I've not been kicked out for being the odd person out because if I NEED to run with a random group of strangers and I want to do the quest and they don't, I join the majority and finish the dungeon the way they want. I save the quest for next time and loot recipes with a group that wants to run that way and I don't come to the forum to post a complaint about it. If I insist on running differently from the majority, then I leave the group to find a more amenable group to run with.

And, yes, I'm still left wondering what the other side of the story is.

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

I mean i had one the other day with some <snip> in wayrest 2. At the alter boss he just let me die and his response was "too much work". I was actually the ec there too. The embarrassing thing was that i was buffing their damage. Other players did nothing cause they just wanted to get through. I wasnt going slow and had no quest. He was just being an <snip>. Some ppl aint just runners. They <snip> too.

<snipped for language>

WhiteCoatSyndrome · September 2023

Katheriah wrote: »

I don't usually have issues. I did have one group today where I mentioned at the start I would be opening chests for leads, but they kept pulling me in a bossfight. You don't help me, I don't help you... So I didn't heal them and they wiped.

Wait, you have to warn your groupmates when you plan to open chests? I thought looting chests was default behavior?

When did this become a thing? I’ve always called out chests for my groupmates, there could be useful treasure in there, set pieces they might need or whatever, and it’s not like we have to fight over the contents (unlike the open world)…

Warhawke_80 · September 2023

People are Horrible unless you are one of my real life friends I will not bother with you...blame all of the Trolling, threatening, stalking and mean spirited comments over the past 15 or so years.

kargen27 · September 2023

Arcturus wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

@Daewind, I'm sorry you had to go through that. It's one reason why I prefer to solo dungeons and avoid PUGs.

@Arcturus, the OP said they spoke up at the beginning of the dungeon and were ignored by everyone else. Giving a fellow group member the silent treatment because you're too busy rushing ahead to speed-run the dungeon (bus but apparently not too busy to stop and vote-kick someone) seems "pretty rude" to me.

@Aislinna, I hope you never find yourself vote-kicked from a group where you're the "odd person out" as far as what everyone's goals are. I also hope you've never participated in vote-kicking anyone from a group. Let's hope the new Group Finder tool will help to lessen these sorts of unpleasant experiences.

If OP wants to do a dungeon slowly for the quest or whatever, then they should solo it or make the group themselves.
Expecting random people to lend you their time is absurd.

works both ways. If someone wants to skip most the content they should do it solo.

rpa · September 2023

I have played games in mmo genre only about 9 years (before that, PvP) as casual not-elite player and I seem to not have much problem. If others are in hurry, I keep up and if they want to take their time I'm not in hurry. If I need something from a dungeon, I either solo or I ask guildmates if they want to do that and group before queueing.

Katheriah · September 2023

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

I don't usually have issues. I did have one group today where I mentioned at the start I would be opening chests for leads, but they kept pulling me in a bossfight. You don't help me, I don't help you... So I didn't heal them and they wiped.

Wait, you have to warn your groupmates when you plan to open chests? I thought looting chests was default behavior? When did this become a thing? I’ve always called out chests for my groupmates, there could be useful treasure in there, set pieces they might need or whatever, and it’s not like we have to fight over the contents (unlike the open world)…

I agree, but in this dungeon most chests are not on the 'run to the boss as fast as you can' route. So just to be sure I called it out.

Well I say just to be sure, but it didn't work.

AlterBlika · September 2023

Most people have done these dungeons so many times already, so even if they add some quest option, it probably still will be ignored or you will get even less pugs. Best way is to solo (it's normal...) or bring friends. You can't force it upon others anyway

AlterBlika · September 2023

kargen27 wrote: »

works both ways. If someone wants to skip most the content they should do it solo.

then nobody would run pugs because everybody just solo it lol

TybaltKaine · September 2023

It would be nice if the group finder included a Story option in addition to the Speed, Educational and Normal modes when you are setting it up. Story is a bit different from Educational IMO as you are focusing on, you know, the story. Giving folks a clear indicator of "I wanna listen to NPC's, read the notes, etc" vs "I wanna learn the mechanics and strats".

Just my 2 cents.

Daewind · September 2023

To answer some remarks:
1) The other side of the story is probably trivial: they didn't want to wait and considered me a dead weight cos I couldn't keep up.
2) I cannot solo that dungeon due to some harder bosses. We are not all top of the class.
3) About me taking their time (or wasting their time as some suggest): I was not that slow. It would have taken them maybe 5 mins extra in total (probably less)? I was not reading books, just grabbing them.

And about why I called them nasty: not because they were rushing, but because they didn't respond when I told them about the quest. Then from their answer I would have the choice to leave immediately or rush with them, but they said nothing at all and gave me the silent treatment later.

BTW: this is the first time in more that 5 years I got kicked and I did plenty of dungeons. Contrary to these ppl, I help other ppl patiently by explaining mechs or help them with their quest, so that may help you understand my reaction here.

SilverBride · September 2023

Most books are right along the path and don't require veering off into side rooms, so shouldn't take more than a second to pick up. If the group doesn't stop for a chest I just take note of where it is and come back for it after the run. Even if everyone else leaves group I usually have time to get it before I'm booted out.

As for quests, most of them are along the way, too. It's the few that require stopping and listening the the NPC that are the issue. They should really make all dungeon quests autocomplete as we meet the objectives.

Katheriah · September 2023

[quote="SilverBride;c-7959292"If the group doesn't stop for a chest I just take note of where it is and come back for it after the run. [/quote]

I was the one complaining about chests earlier in this thread. That doesn't really work in the dungeon where I need the chests from. Also, I'm not going to scratch the back of anyone that doesn't scratch mine. I rather get a queue penalty and run the dungeon solo on normal than help buttholes. It's literally a couple of seconds extra for them during the run. (And a chance for extra loot, which is what most people are there for anyway).

Today I had another group that kept pulling me into a bossfight, after I warned I was going for chests. Thus, I left them looking for a new healer. And that sure as hell was a group that needed one.

They are by no means obliged to help me, but neither am I.

SilverBride · September 2023

Katheriah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

If the group doesn't stop for a chest I just take note of where it is and come back for it after the run.

I was the one complaining about chests earlier in this thread. That doesn't really work in the dungeon where I need the chests from.

No one needs the chests. They are an optional bonus that players can choose to loot or not.

Regardless, I have had good luck going back for chests and even finding chests I missed seeing along the way. I actually look forward to looking for these after the run.

Katheriah · September 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

If the group doesn't stop for a chest I just take note of where it is and come back for it after the run.

I was the one complaining about chests earlier in this thread. That doesn't really work in the dungeon where I need the chests from.

No one needs the chests.

People that are looking for a lead that only drops in chests in a specific dungeon need the chests.

SilverBride · September 2023

Katheriah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

If the group doesn't stop for a chest I just take note of where it is and come back for it after the run.

I was the one complaining about chests earlier in this thread. That doesn't really work in the dungeon where I need the chests from.

No one needs the chests.

People that are looking for a lead that only drops in chests in a specific dungeon need the chests.

I had no idea they put leads in specific dungeon chests. That is a really bad idea in my opinion.

I'd suggest finding a group of others also looking for the lead to run the dungeon together and farm for it, because random groups usually just want a fast run.

ZOS_Icy · September 2023

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.