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Dungeon Finder penalty should be account wide
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Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »AvalonRanger wrote: »How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?
And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.
"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"
Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.
That's wrong. Alone in this very thread (and every other too of course) several tanks told us, that they leave group right at the beginning, if they suspect the presence of fake dds.
But all of those are leaving after seeing the fake DDs. The leavers mentioned in the OP are leaving without even knowing who else is in the group.
And are called fake tank nonetheless, even if it's not possible to say before any fight happened.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.0 -
endgamesmug✭✭✭✭AvalonRanger wrote: »How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?
And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.
"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"
Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.
That's wrong. Alone in this very thread (and every other too of course) several tanks told us, that they leave group right at the beginning, if they suspect the presence of fake dds.
I was levelling another account a couple of weeks ago in a normal random, dps was heavy attacking with a resto.......2 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭endgamesmug wrote: »AvalonRanger wrote: »How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?
And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.
"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"
Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.
That's wrong. Alone in this very thread (and every other too of course) several tanks told us, that they leave group right at the beginning, if they suspect the presence of fake dds.
I was levelling another account a couple of weeks ago in a normal random, dps was heavy attacking with a resto.......
Yeah, that's the guys I'm talking about. 😆
Years ago I also enjoyed tanking in random dungeons, but stopped that completely due to toxic fake dds, which can't even do low average dps while ranting about their group members.
They blame the healer if they die to mechanics and the tank for their low dps.
I refuse to play with those people as do many others. No abitrary game mechanic will ever change that.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.3 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »AvalonRanger wrote: »How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?
And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.
"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"
Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.
That's wrong. Alone in this very thread (and every other too of course) several tanks told us, that they leave group right at the beginning, if they suspect the presence of fake dds.
But all of those are leaving after seeing the fake DDs. The leavers mentioned in the OP are leaving without even knowing who else is in the group.
And are called fake tank nonetheless, even if it's not possible to say before any fight happened.
1) It is possible to see that they have only 18k hp as they're leaving.
2) It's very obvious from base game dungeons that fake tanks are very common. It's also very obvious that most fake tanks aren't completing (or even really attempting) DLC dungeons, and that lots of tanks are leaving DLC dungeons as soon as they arrive. Put those together and it's not hard to figure out that a pretty large chunk of the tanks who leave DLC dungeons before they've even started are fakes.
3) It's also easy to recognize a real tank who can't handle bad DDs or fake heals because they need to wait for combat to at least start before they can assess whether their teammates are capable or not. Fakes, on the other hand, don't need to wait before knowing that they themselves are fakes.
Sure, there's probably some small percentage that are real tanks who don't want to spend the time that a DLC dungeon requires (which is also pretty rude/toxic), and some even smaller percentage who need to leave due to an emergency coming up at the exact moment they enter the dungeon (and not while in the queue, or before accepting the queue pop, or after the dungeon has actually started), but the specific timing makes it pretty obvious that the vast majority of tanks who leave without even taking time to assess their teammates are fakes who know they can't complete the dungeon.1 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »AvalonRanger wrote: »How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?
And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.
"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"
Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.
That's wrong. Alone in this very thread (and every other too of course) several tanks told us, that they leave group right at the beginning, if they suspect the presence of fake dds.
But all of those are leaving after seeing the fake DDs. The leavers mentioned in the OP are leaving without even knowing who else is in the group.
And are called fake tank nonetheless, even if it's not possible to say before any fight happened.
1) It is possible to see that they have only 18k hp as they're leaving.
2) It's very obvious from base game dungeons that fake tanks are very common. It's also very obvious that most fake tanks aren't completing (or even really attempting) DLC dungeons, and that lots of tanks are leaving DLC dungeons as soon as they arrive. Put those together and it's not hard to figure out that a pretty large chunk of the tanks who leave DLC dungeons before they've even started are fakes.
3) It's also easy to recognize a real tank who can't handle bad DDs or fake heals because they need to wait for combat to at least start before they can assess whether their teammates are capable or not. Fakes, on the other hand, don't need to wait before knowing that they themselves are fakes.
Sure, there's probably some small percentage that are real tanks who don't want to spend the time that a DLC dungeon requires (which is also pretty rude/toxic), and some even smaller percentage who need to leave due to an emergency coming up at the exact moment they enter the dungeon (and not while in the queue, or before accepting the queue pop, or after the dungeon has actually started), but the specific timing makes it pretty obvious that the vast majority of tanks who leave without even taking time to assess their teammates are fakes who know they can't complete the dungeon.
You demonstrate the problem nicely:
While every single normal dungeon is easily doable in a group of two (most are indeed soloable, but some have mechanics preventing that), some people around here claim, that's not possible to complete them without "proper" tank. That's the fake dds.
18k HP is sufficient when doing rnd in a group of 4, even for the tank. There are tons of other ways to mitigate dmg, only thing required is a taunt and some skill to do your job. Nobody can't say if a taunt is slotted before the fighting starts.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.1 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »AvalonRanger wrote: »How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?
And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.
"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"
Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.
That's wrong. Alone in this very thread (and every other too of course) several tanks told us, that they leave group right at the beginning, if they suspect the presence of fake dds.
But all of those are leaving after seeing the fake DDs. The leavers mentioned in the OP are leaving without even knowing who else is in the group.
And are called fake tank nonetheless, even if it's not possible to say before any fight happened.
1) It is possible to see that they have only 18k hp as they're leaving.
2) It's very obvious from base game dungeons that fake tanks are very common. It's also very obvious that most fake tanks aren't completing (or even really attempting) DLC dungeons, and that lots of tanks are leaving DLC dungeons as soon as they arrive. Put those together and it's not hard to figure out that a pretty large chunk of the tanks who leave DLC dungeons before they've even started are fakes.
3) It's also easy to recognize a real tank who can't handle bad DDs or fake heals because they need to wait for combat to at least start before they can assess whether their teammates are capable or not. Fakes, on the other hand, don't need to wait before knowing that they themselves are fakes.
Sure, there's probably some small percentage that are real tanks who don't want to spend the time that a DLC dungeon requires (which is also pretty rude/toxic), and some even smaller percentage who need to leave due to an emergency coming up at the exact moment they enter the dungeon (and not while in the queue, or before accepting the queue pop, or after the dungeon has actually started), but the specific timing makes it pretty obvious that the vast majority of tanks who leave without even taking time to assess their teammates are fakes who know they can't complete the dungeon.
You demonstrate the problem nicely:
While every single normal dungeon is easily doable in a group of two (most are indeed soloable, but some have mechanics preventing that), some people around here claim, that's not possible to complete them without "proper" tank. That's the fake dds.
18k HP is sufficient when doing rnd in a group of 4, even for the tank. There are tons of other ways to mitigate dmg, only thing required is a taunt and some skill to do your job. Nobody can't say if a taunt is slotted before the fighting starts.
This happens to me regularly in VET dungeons.
18k HP is absolutely not enough to tank even most base game vet dungeons. If I had a dollar for every "tank" who slotted a taunt and then stayed alive by kiting bosses out of the DD's ground-based AoE (severely reducing group DPS), I would be quite wealthy.0 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »AvalonRanger wrote: »How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?
And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.
"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"
Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.
That's wrong. Alone in this very thread (and every other too of course) several tanks told us, that they leave group right at the beginning, if they suspect the presence of fake dds.
But all of those are leaving after seeing the fake DDs. The leavers mentioned in the OP are leaving without even knowing who else is in the group.
And are called fake tank nonetheless, even if it's not possible to say before any fight happened.
1) It is possible to see that they have only 18k hp as they're leaving.
2) It's very obvious from base game dungeons that fake tanks are very common. It's also very obvious that most fake tanks aren't completing (or even really attempting) DLC dungeons, and that lots of tanks are leaving DLC dungeons as soon as they arrive. Put those together and it's not hard to figure out that a pretty large chunk of the tanks who leave DLC dungeons before they've even started are fakes.
3) It's also easy to recognize a real tank who can't handle bad DDs or fake heals because they need to wait for combat to at least start before they can assess whether their teammates are capable or not. Fakes, on the other hand, don't need to wait before knowing that they themselves are fakes.
Sure, there's probably some small percentage that are real tanks who don't want to spend the time that a DLC dungeon requires (which is also pretty rude/toxic), and some even smaller percentage who need to leave due to an emergency coming up at the exact moment they enter the dungeon (and not while in the queue, or before accepting the queue pop, or after the dungeon has actually started), but the specific timing makes it pretty obvious that the vast majority of tanks who leave without even taking time to assess their teammates are fakes who know they can't complete the dungeon.
You demonstrate the problem nicely:
While every single normal dungeon is easily doable in a group of two (most are indeed soloable, but some have mechanics preventing that), some people around here claim, that's not possible to complete them without "proper" tank. That's the fake dds.
18k HP is sufficient when doing rnd in a group of 4, even for the tank. There are tons of other ways to mitigate dmg, only thing required is a taunt and some skill to do your job. Nobody can't say if a taunt is slotted before the fighting starts.
This happens to me regularly in VET dungeons.
18k HP is absolutely not enough to tank even most base game vet dungeons. If I had a dollar for every "tank" who slotted a taunt and then stayed alive by kiting bosses out of the DD's ground-based AoE (severely reducing group DPS), I would be quite wealthy.
Yeah, vet is a completely other matter, I agree.
But I'm sure in vet queue we are talking about bad players in general, simply because vet isn't the fastest route to the shiny rewards at the end.
Look around this forums: There are enough threads made by stubborn players, which refuse to communicate, look for a proper build or have mechanics explained to them. Instead they accuse helpful veterans of "gatekeeping".
Yeah, it's the jackpot if you meet one of those in vet dlc, but regardless of role.
Whoever gambles for fast transmutes will do that in rnd, not rvd.
I don't intend to defend leaving right at the start btw, I simply say the issue isn't as easily solved as removing "fake tanks" due to the low average skill of pugs in general.
That's why I queue solely in premades nowadays and solved all these issue permanently. At least for me.
If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.Edited by Braffin on 2 September 2023 15:13Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AvalonRanger wrote: »How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?
And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.
"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"
Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.
Derp. Ive had to leave for many different reasons lol. IRL happens y'all. Also ive jump cause i got asked by a friend to fill in for a trial bc someone didnt show and they cant run ect. Ima let folks know but im gonna leave.0 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.PC/EU, StamSorc Main1 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Making overland more difficult won't change anything. This is just an excuse to ask for more difficult overland.If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.
Right now the usual flow of difficulty in this game is interrupted by normal dungeons. Normally players flow from overland to normal dungeons, which is the next difficulty step. Normal dungeons is where players learn their role, their rotation, and how groupplay functions. Due to all new players encountering a fake role or speedrunner in 99 out of 100 dungeons they take part in, where dungeons do not even start or where they get dragged from boss to boss, they are unable to learn their part and are unable to improve themselves. Normally after doing normal dungeons players flow to veteran dungeons, but if they do that now, there is a very high chance they get kicked almost right away, as they do not know anything yet. Nor their role, their rotation, how groupplay works, or how boss mechanics work. Meaning, due to the current MMO state of the game, the usual flow from low to high difficulty is interrupted, causing barely anyone to flow into the endgame. (Most players not invested into the game yet, will stop playing due to this)
Overland difficulty is not a factor in this.
The current MMO state of the game, is make or break for ESO, if ZOS does not fix this the game will keep losing more and more players. This is also why I am always trying to get ZOS to fix this major issue, as it is gamebreaking. Even though it may not seem that way.
In addition to that, ZOS needs to remove the DPS-gap, by allowing more endgame playstyles than just the barswapping LA weaving one(which barely anyone wants to perform). This would also make even the worst DPS perform better in dungeon runs.
PS: I am someone who usually enjoys doing dungeons for fun, and right now I am not running any due to all the bad experiences I would have to subject myself to. (fake roles/speedrunners)
Edit: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641810/normal-random-dungeons-are-a-total-mess-for-new-charactersEdited by Sarannah on 3 September 2023 10:401 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Making overland more difficult won't change anything. This is just an excuse to ask for more difficult overland.If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.
Right now the usual flow of difficulty in this game is interrupted by normal dungeons. Normally players flow from overland to normal dungeons, which is the next difficulty step. Normal dungeons is where players learn their role, their rotation, and how groupplay functions. Due to all new players encountering a fake role or speedrunner in 99 out of 100 dungeons they take part in, where dungeons do not even start or where they get dragged from boss to boss, they are unable to learn their part and are unable to improve themselves. Normally after doing normal dungeons players flow to veteran dungeons, but if they do that now, there is a very high chance they get kicked almost right away, as they do not know anything yet. Nor their role, their rotation, how groupplay works, or how boss mechanics work. Meaning, due to the current MMO state of the game, the usual flow from low to high difficulty is interrupted, causing barely anyone to flow into the endgame. (Most players not invested into the game yet, will stop playing due to this)
Overland difficulty is not a factor in this.
The current MMO state of the game, is make or break for ESO, if ZOS does not fix this the game will keep losing more and more players. This is also why I am always trying to get ZOS to fix this major issue, as it is gamebreaking. Even though it may not seem that way.
In addition to that, ZOS needs to remove the DPS-gap, by allowing more endgame playstyles than just the barswapping LA weaving one(which barely anyone wants to perform). This would also make even the worst DPS perform better in dungeon runs.
PS: I am someone who usually enjoys doing dungeons for fun, and right now I am not running any due to all the bad experiences I would have to subject myself to. (fake roles/speedrunners)
Edit: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641810/normal-random-dungeons-are-a-total-mess-for-new-characters
Making the game even more braindead easy than it is at present while chasing away veterans by nonsensical strict rules is a sure way to kill this game finally. Not only below-average players are supposed to have fun here, ya know?
Your "ideas" must not happen and should be opposed at every opportunity normally. Thankfully their implementation is out of the question anyways.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.2 -
AvalonRanger✭✭✭✭✭AvalonRanger wrote: »How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?
And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.
"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"
Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.
That's wrong. Alone in this very thread (and every other too of course) several tanks told us, that they leave group right at the beginning, if they suspect the presence of fake dds.
The regular rant of the anti-fake-tank-crowd won't change anything, if they furthermore refuse to git gud themselves, as probably 80% of them are subpar fake dds which refuse to learn this game properly.
These guys are keeping support roles away from finder (as in every other mmo btw), while ranting, abusing the report function and asking for permabans for fellow players.
In my opinion they deserve what they get.
if they suspect the presence of fake dds...
Honestly say, when I found shield and sword DD in the PUG member,
I consider "leaving"...but actually didn't. That was random normal anyway.
But in Vet...I don't have confidence to keep staying for that.My playing time Mon-Friday UTC13:00-16:00 [PC-NA] CP over2000 now.
I have [1Tough tank] [1StamSorc-DD] [1Necro-DD] [1Real Healer]
with [1Stam Blade].
But, I'm Tank main player. Recently I'm doing Healer.
2023/12/21
By the way...Dungeon-Meshi(One of Famous Japanese fantasy story comic book) got finale...
Good-bye "King of Monster Eater".
2024/08/23
Farewell Atsuko Tanaka...(-_-) I never forget epic acting for major Motoko Kusanagi.1 -
Poss✭✭✭✭✭I never leave at the start because I don’t like the look of the group composition. That’s equally as selfish. I got normal Bal Summar (sp?) on my healer the other day with a level 45 tank, a level 49 dd and a lowish CP level dd and they were all absolutely fantastic. Tank needed a bit of extra healing but not once did he die or lose taunt (except when mechanics demanded it). Yes the dungeon took a little bit longer than if it was filled with max cp speed-running sweats but who cares?
I will only ever leave if we continuously wipe on the bossEdited by Poss on 3 September 2023 16:563 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Making overland more difficult won't change anything. This is just an excuse to ask for more difficult overland.If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.
Right now the usual flow of difficulty in this game is interrupted by normal dungeons. Normally players flow from overland to normal dungeons, which is the next difficulty step. Normal dungeons is where players learn their role, their rotation, and how groupplay functions. Due to all new players encountering a fake role or speedrunner in 99 out of 100 dungeons they take part in, where dungeons do not even start or where they get dragged from boss to boss, they are unable to learn their part and are unable to improve themselves. Normally after doing normal dungeons players flow to veteran dungeons, but if they do that now, there is a very high chance they get kicked almost right away, as they do not know anything yet. Nor their role, their rotation, how groupplay works, or how boss mechanics work. Meaning, due to the current MMO state of the game, the usual flow from low to high difficulty is interrupted, causing barely anyone to flow into the endgame. (Most players not invested into the game yet, will stop playing due to this)
Overland difficulty is not a factor in this.
The current MMO state of the game, is make or break for ESO, if ZOS does not fix this the game will keep losing more and more players. This is also why I am always trying to get ZOS to fix this major issue, as it is gamebreaking. Even though it may not seem that way.
In addition to that, ZOS needs to remove the DPS-gap, by allowing more endgame playstyles than just the barswapping LA weaving one(which barely anyone wants to perform). This would also make even the worst DPS perform better in dungeon runs.
PS: I am someone who usually enjoys doing dungeons for fun, and right now I am not running any due to all the bad experiences I would have to subject myself to. (fake roles/speedrunners)
Edit: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641810/normal-random-dungeons-are-a-total-mess-for-new-characters
Of course overland difficulty is a factor...
You are asking for ZOS to lower (or remove, which just shouldnt happen) the DPS gap, higher overland difficulty is supposed to do exactly that. Just by forcing people to actually learn to play the game in at least some way if they want to get through overland instead of giving everything to everyone for free.
Instead of bringing everyone forcefully closer together by making player skill just not matter at all, why not try to bring everyone closer together by getting the players on the lower end to a higher skill level?
Also more difficult overland would do basically nothing for me. I barely ever do overland content and spend by far my most time in PvP.Edited by Jierdanit on 3 September 2023 17:15PC/EU, StamSorc Main3 -
svendf✭✭✭✭
Making overland more difficult won't change anything. This is just an excuse to ask for more difficult overland.If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.
Right now the usual flow of difficulty in this game is interrupted by normal dungeons. Normally players flow from overland to normal dungeons, which is the next difficulty step. Normal dungeons is where players learn their role, their rotation, and how groupplay functions. Due to all new players encountering a fake role or speedrunner in 99 out of 100 dungeons they take part in, where dungeons do not even start or where they get dragged from boss to boss, they are unable to learn their part and are unable to improve themselves. Normally after doing normal dungeons players flow to veteran dungeons, but if they do that now, there is a very high chance they get kicked almost right away, as they do not know anything yet. Nor their role, their rotation, how groupplay works, or how boss mechanics work. Meaning, due to the current MMO state of the game, the usual flow from low to high difficulty is interrupted, causing barely anyone to flow into the endgame. (Most players not invested into the game yet, will stop playing due to this)
Overland difficulty is not a factor in this.
The current MMO state of the game, is make or break for ESO, if ZOS does not fix this the game will keep losing more and more players. This is also why I am always trying to get ZOS to fix this major issue, as it is gamebreaking. Even though it may not seem that way.
In addition to that, ZOS needs to remove the DPS-gap, by allowing more endgame playstyles than just the barswapping LA weaving one(which barely anyone wants to perform). This would also make even the worst DPS perform better in dungeon runs.
PS: I am someone who usually enjoys doing dungeons for fun, and right now I am not running any due to all the bad experiences I would have to subject myself to. (fake roles/speedrunners)
Edit: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641810/normal-random-dungeons-are-a-total-mess-for-new-characters
Making the game even more braindead easy than it is at present while chasing away veterans by nonsensical strict rules is a sure way to kill this game finally. Not only below-average players are supposed to have fun here, ya know?
Your "ideas" must not happen and should be opposed at every opportunity normally. Thankfully their implementation is out of the question anyways.
Not all do acceps that type of game play or Mmo - as yourself - it´s proven to be a good way to go, though.
I fully believe the poster isn´t trying to convince you (the one you reply to). It´s more a description of a proven concept and of cause, some very good ideas.
Eso will suffer as it is now - we haven´t seen it all yet. It´s like a chain reaction.
As said no one try to convince you
0 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Making overland more difficult won't change anything. This is just an excuse to ask for more difficult overland.If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.
Right now the usual flow of difficulty in this game is interrupted by normal dungeons. Normally players flow from overland to normal dungeons, which is the next difficulty step. Normal dungeons is where players learn their role, their rotation, and how groupplay functions. Due to all new players encountering a fake role or speedrunner in 99 out of 100 dungeons they take part in, where dungeons do not even start or where they get dragged from boss to boss, they are unable to learn their part and are unable to improve themselves. Normally after doing normal dungeons players flow to veteran dungeons, but if they do that now, there is a very high chance they get kicked almost right away, as they do not know anything yet. Nor their role, their rotation, how groupplay works, or how boss mechanics work. Meaning, due to the current MMO state of the game, the usual flow from low to high difficulty is interrupted, causing barely anyone to flow into the endgame. (Most players not invested into the game yet, will stop playing due to this)
Overland difficulty is not a factor in this.
The current MMO state of the game, is make or break for ESO, if ZOS does not fix this the game will keep losing more and more players. This is also why I am always trying to get ZOS to fix this major issue, as it is gamebreaking. Even though it may not seem that way.
In addition to that, ZOS needs to remove the DPS-gap, by allowing more endgame playstyles than just the barswapping LA weaving one(which barely anyone wants to perform). This would also make even the worst DPS perform better in dungeon runs.
PS: I am someone who usually enjoys doing dungeons for fun, and right now I am not running any due to all the bad experiences I would have to subject myself to. (fake roles/speedrunners)
Edit: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641810/normal-random-dungeons-are-a-total-mess-for-new-characters
Making the game even more braindead easy than it is at present while chasing away veterans by nonsensical strict rules is a sure way to kill this game finally. Not only below-average players are supposed to have fun here, ya know?
Your "ideas" must not happen and should be opposed at every opportunity normally. Thankfully their implementation is out of the question anyways.
Not all do acceps that type of game play or Mmo - as yourself - it´s proven to be a good way to go, though.
I fully believe the poster isn´t trying to convince you (the one you reply to). It´s more a description of a proven concept and of cause, some very good ideas.
Eso will suffer as it is now - we haven´t seen it all yet. It´s like a chain reaction.
As said no one try to convince you
Eso is suffering right now, because ZOS is going in a more casual direction with every patch.
It certainly doesn't need to offer even less to Endgame players.PC/EU, StamSorc Main2 -
svendf✭✭✭✭
Making overland more difficult won't change anything. This is just an excuse to ask for more difficult overland.If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.
Right now the usual flow of difficulty in this game is interrupted by normal dungeons. Normally players flow from overland to normal dungeons, which is the next difficulty step. Normal dungeons is where players learn their role, their rotation, and how groupplay functions. Due to all new players encountering a fake role or speedrunner in 99 out of 100 dungeons they take part in, where dungeons do not even start or where they get dragged from boss to boss, they are unable to learn their part and are unable to improve themselves. Normally after doing normal dungeons players flow to veteran dungeons, but if they do that now, there is a very high chance they get kicked almost right away, as they do not know anything yet. Nor their role, their rotation, how groupplay works, or how boss mechanics work. Meaning, due to the current MMO state of the game, the usual flow from low to high difficulty is interrupted, causing barely anyone to flow into the endgame. (Most players not invested into the game yet, will stop playing due to this)
Overland difficulty is not a factor in this.
The current MMO state of the game, is make or break for ESO, if ZOS does not fix this the game will keep losing more and more players. This is also why I am always trying to get ZOS to fix this major issue, as it is gamebreaking. Even though it may not seem that way.
In addition to that, ZOS needs to remove the DPS-gap, by allowing more endgame playstyles than just the barswapping LA weaving one(which barely anyone wants to perform). This would also make even the worst DPS perform better in dungeon runs.
PS: I am someone who usually enjoys doing dungeons for fun, and right now I am not running any due to all the bad experiences I would have to subject myself to. (fake roles/speedrunners)
Edit: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641810/normal-random-dungeons-are-a-total-mess-for-new-characters
Of course overland difficulty is a factor...
You are asking for ZOS to lower (or remove, which just shouldnt happen) the DPS gap, higher overland difficulty is supposed to do exactly that. Just by forcing people to actually learn to play the game in at least some way if they want to get through overland instead of giving everything to everyone for free.
Instead of bringing everyone forcefully closer together by making player skill just not matter at all, why not try to bring everyone closer together by getting the players on the lower end to a higher skill level?
Also more difficult overland would do basically nothing for me. I barely ever do overland content and spend by far my most time in PvP.
So overland is an factor. Sorry, it´s not - the progression is from overland to the next step - dungeons. A first time dungeon runner lvl 15, getting left behind by speedsters, skipers and fakes - isn´t ?
It´s not your fault or anyone else. The responsibility is ZOS´s - they are the one´s, who can change it. Same for problems in PvP1 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Making overland more difficult won't change anything. This is just an excuse to ask for more difficult overland.If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.
Right now the usual flow of difficulty in this game is interrupted by normal dungeons. Normally players flow from overland to normal dungeons, which is the next difficulty step. Normal dungeons is where players learn their role, their rotation, and how groupplay functions. Due to all new players encountering a fake role or speedrunner in 99 out of 100 dungeons they take part in, where dungeons do not even start or where they get dragged from boss to boss, they are unable to learn their part and are unable to improve themselves. Normally after doing normal dungeons players flow to veteran dungeons, but if they do that now, there is a very high chance they get kicked almost right away, as they do not know anything yet. Nor their role, their rotation, how groupplay works, or how boss mechanics work. Meaning, due to the current MMO state of the game, the usual flow from low to high difficulty is interrupted, causing barely anyone to flow into the endgame. (Most players not invested into the game yet, will stop playing due to this)
Overland difficulty is not a factor in this.
The current MMO state of the game, is make or break for ESO, if ZOS does not fix this the game will keep losing more and more players. This is also why I am always trying to get ZOS to fix this major issue, as it is gamebreaking. Even though it may not seem that way.
In addition to that, ZOS needs to remove the DPS-gap, by allowing more endgame playstyles than just the barswapping LA weaving one(which barely anyone wants to perform). This would also make even the worst DPS perform better in dungeon runs.
PS: I am someone who usually enjoys doing dungeons for fun, and right now I am not running any due to all the bad experiences I would have to subject myself to. (fake roles/speedrunners)
Edit: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641810/normal-random-dungeons-are-a-total-mess-for-new-characters
Of course overland difficulty is a factor...
You are asking for ZOS to lower (or remove, which just shouldnt happen) the DPS gap, higher overland difficulty is supposed to do exactly that. Just by forcing people to actually learn to play the game in at least some way if they want to get through overland instead of giving everything to everyone for free.
Instead of bringing everyone forcefully closer together by making player skill just not matter at all, why not try to bring everyone closer together by getting the players on the lower end to a higher skill level?
Also more difficult overland would do basically nothing for me. I barely ever do overland content and spend by far my most time in PvP.
So overland is an factor. Sorry, it´s not - the progression is from overland to the next step - dungeons. A first time dungeon runner lvl 15, getting left behind by speedsters, skipers and fakes - isn´t ?
It´s not your fault or anyone else. The responsibility is ZOS´s - they are the one´s, who can change it. Same for problems in PvP
Yes it is
There is barely any progression from overland to normal dungeons, because those dungeons are beyond easy too (at least non dlc ones).
The problem is that if ZOS just made the dungeons harder then the people coming from overland would complain that they are too hard, because in overland literally nothing requires any understanding of the game.
People apparently have to be forced to improve to actually do so and the best way to do that is to make overland harder to at least a point that you need to use skills and some form of game knowledge to beat it.
Of course a new player can get discouraged by getting into a dungeon with speedrunners (though i personally think a lot of them wont complain about a dungeon going fast) and imo those people should barely ever end up in the same random group.
New players should at least to some extent be forced to provide something to their group instead of just being carried.PC/EU, StamSorc Main1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »A better solution would be an option to deselect the harder DLC Dungeons.
How would you ever get fills for a DLC dungeon, then? No one, absolutely no one, would select to include DLC dungeons in their random queue. So anyone who queues for a specific DLC dungeon, because they want the skill point, or they want gear, or they just like the way it looks, will be out of luck. It will become impossible to do a DLC dungeon, even on normal, without a pre-formed 4-man group.
"We have a group finder! But it only works for base game dungeons!" is what that boils down to.
I realize a lot of players want their transmutes and XP as a kind of glorified login reward. But it is supposed to be a reward for helping other players fill in their dungeon groups. The transmutes and XP are a reward because ZOS is asking you to do something you might not normally do, as a service to other players. It is not a reward just for doing a dungeon or just for playing the game.
I see both sides of this one. The non-DLC queue already exists, and it is glorious, but the only way to access it is by canceling your ESO plus sub. That seems like a terrible business move IMO.
The code is already written, just let players choose.
It's true that few people would join the DLC dungeon queue by choice. I believe that is a problem with the reward structure. Normal DLC should give at least double the rewards of Normal for it to have a chance at incentivizing players. Veteran should also give double normal, and vet non-DLC could be equal to normal DLC since they take a similar amount of time and skill.
I propose:
- Normal, 5 transmutes, 50k xp
- Normal DLC, 10 transmutes, 100k xp
- Veteran, 10 transmutes, 100k xp
- Vet DLC, 20 transmutes, 200k xp
I'll also add that on the rare occasion I drop from a dungeon at the start, it has nothing to do with the group or fake roles. The #1 reason for me is knowing that there is a game-breaking bug halfway through the dungeon and not wanting to deal with it. After that it may simply be that I don't have time if a long one pops, or maybe I just got that dungeon several times in a row and don't want the repetition .
Account wide penalty wouldn't solve anything. Nobody can make players do something against their will. They'll just do other content or log off.Edited by WrathOfInnos on 5 September 2023 00:571 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Making overland more difficult won't change anything. This is just an excuse to ask for more difficult overland.If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.
Right now the usual flow of difficulty in this game is interrupted by normal dungeons. Normally players flow from overland to normal dungeons, which is the next difficulty step. Normal dungeons is where players learn their role, their rotation, and how groupplay functions. Due to all new players encountering a fake role or speedrunner in 99 out of 100 dungeons they take part in, where dungeons do not even start or where they get dragged from boss to boss, they are unable to learn their part and are unable to improve themselves. Normally after doing normal dungeons players flow to veteran dungeons, but if they do that now, there is a very high chance they get kicked almost right away, as they do not know anything yet. Nor their role, their rotation, how groupplay works, or how boss mechanics work. Meaning, due to the current MMO state of the game, the usual flow from low to high difficulty is interrupted, causing barely anyone to flow into the endgame. (Most players not invested into the game yet, will stop playing due to this)
Overland difficulty is not a factor in this.
The current MMO state of the game, is make or break for ESO, if ZOS does not fix this the game will keep losing more and more players. This is also why I am always trying to get ZOS to fix this major issue, as it is gamebreaking. Even though it may not seem that way.
In addition to that, ZOS needs to remove the DPS-gap, by allowing more endgame playstyles than just the barswapping LA weaving one(which barely anyone wants to perform). This would also make even the worst DPS perform better in dungeon runs.
PS: I am someone who usually enjoys doing dungeons for fun, and right now I am not running any due to all the bad experiences I would have to subject myself to. (fake roles/speedrunners)
Edit: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641810/normal-random-dungeons-are-a-total-mess-for-new-characters
Making the game even more braindead easy than it is at present while chasing away veterans by nonsensical strict rules is a sure way to kill this game finally. Not only below-average players are supposed to have fun here, ya know?
Your "ideas" must not happen and should be opposed at every opportunity normally. Thankfully their implementation is out of the question anyways.
Not all do acceps that type of game play or Mmo - as yourself - it´s proven to be a good way to go, though.
I fully believe the poster isn´t trying to convince you (the one you reply to). It´s more a description of a proven concept and of cause, some very good ideas.
Eso will suffer as it is now - we haven´t seen it all yet. It´s like a chain reaction.
As said no one try to convince you
Well, you're trying to convince devs to implement changes harmful to my gameplay. So I naturally oppose your suggestions.
You made suggestions, right?Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.1 -
svendf✭✭✭✭
Making overland more difficult won't change anything. This is just an excuse to ask for more difficult overland.If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.
Right now the usual flow of difficulty in this game is interrupted by normal dungeons. Normally players flow from overland to normal dungeons, which is the next difficulty step. Normal dungeons is where players learn their role, their rotation, and how groupplay functions. Due to all new players encountering a fake role or speedrunner in 99 out of 100 dungeons they take part in, where dungeons do not even start or where they get dragged from boss to boss, they are unable to learn their part and are unable to improve themselves. Normally after doing normal dungeons players flow to veteran dungeons, but if they do that now, there is a very high chance they get kicked almost right away, as they do not know anything yet. Nor their role, their rotation, how groupplay works, or how boss mechanics work. Meaning, due to the current MMO state of the game, the usual flow from low to high difficulty is interrupted, causing barely anyone to flow into the endgame. (Most players not invested into the game yet, will stop playing due to this)
Overland difficulty is not a factor in this.
The current MMO state of the game, is make or break for ESO, if ZOS does not fix this the game will keep losing more and more players. This is also why I am always trying to get ZOS to fix this major issue, as it is gamebreaking. Even though it may not seem that way.
In addition to that, ZOS needs to remove the DPS-gap, by allowing more endgame playstyles than just the barswapping LA weaving one(which barely anyone wants to perform). This would also make even the worst DPS perform better in dungeon runs.
PS: I am someone who usually enjoys doing dungeons for fun, and right now I am not running any due to all the bad experiences I would have to subject myself to. (fake roles/speedrunners)
Edit: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641810/normal-random-dungeons-are-a-total-mess-for-new-characters
Making the game even more braindead easy than it is at present while chasing away veterans by nonsensical strict rules is a sure way to kill this game finally. Not only below-average players are supposed to have fun here, ya know?
Your "ideas" must not happen and should be opposed at every opportunity normally. Thankfully their implementation is out of the question anyways.
Not all do acceps that type of game play or Mmo - as yourself - it´s proven to be a good way to go, though.
I fully believe the poster isn´t trying to convince you (the one you reply to). It´s more a description of a proven concept and of cause, some very good ideas.
Eso will suffer as it is now - we haven´t seen it all yet. It´s like a chain reaction.
As said no one try to convince you
Well, you're trying to convince devs to implement changes harmful to my gameplay. So I naturally oppose your suggestions.
You made suggestions, right?
How would gameplay look like, from your perspective, which would be beneficial for both of us ?
Start with normal dungeons.
Edited by svendf on 5 September 2023 14:300 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Making overland more difficult won't change anything. This is just an excuse to ask for more difficult overland.If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.
Right now the usual flow of difficulty in this game is interrupted by normal dungeons. Normally players flow from overland to normal dungeons, which is the next difficulty step. Normal dungeons is where players learn their role, their rotation, and how groupplay functions. Due to all new players encountering a fake role or speedrunner in 99 out of 100 dungeons they take part in, where dungeons do not even start or where they get dragged from boss to boss, they are unable to learn their part and are unable to improve themselves. Normally after doing normal dungeons players flow to veteran dungeons, but if they do that now, there is a very high chance they get kicked almost right away, as they do not know anything yet. Nor their role, their rotation, how groupplay works, or how boss mechanics work. Meaning, due to the current MMO state of the game, the usual flow from low to high difficulty is interrupted, causing barely anyone to flow into the endgame. (Most players not invested into the game yet, will stop playing due to this)
Overland difficulty is not a factor in this.
The current MMO state of the game, is make or break for ESO, if ZOS does not fix this the game will keep losing more and more players. This is also why I am always trying to get ZOS to fix this major issue, as it is gamebreaking. Even though it may not seem that way.
In addition to that, ZOS needs to remove the DPS-gap, by allowing more endgame playstyles than just the barswapping LA weaving one(which barely anyone wants to perform). This would also make even the worst DPS perform better in dungeon runs.
PS: I am someone who usually enjoys doing dungeons for fun, and right now I am not running any due to all the bad experiences I would have to subject myself to. (fake roles/speedrunners)
Edit: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641810/normal-random-dungeons-are-a-total-mess-for-new-characters
Making the game even more braindead easy than it is at present while chasing away veterans by nonsensical strict rules is a sure way to kill this game finally. Not only below-average players are supposed to have fun here, ya know?
Your "ideas" must not happen and should be opposed at every opportunity normally. Thankfully their implementation is out of the question anyways.
Not all do acceps that type of game play or Mmo - as yourself - it´s proven to be a good way to go, though.
I fully believe the poster isn´t trying to convince you (the one you reply to). It´s more a description of a proven concept and of cause, some very good ideas.
Eso will suffer as it is now - we haven´t seen it all yet. It´s like a chain reaction.
As said no one try to convince you
Well, you're trying to convince devs to implement changes harmful to my gameplay. So I naturally oppose your suggestions.
You made suggestions, right?
How would gameplay look like, from your perspective, which would be beneficial for both of us ?
Start with normal dungeons.
I'd suggest a toggle in the group finder tab, where players may decide between grouping in a classical way (1T 1H 2DD) and grouping regardless of roles. Should solve most of the problems regarding fake roles.
If that isn't sufficient we can talk about prerequisites someone has to fulfill to be able to join the "classical mmo" queue, as there would be already an option for everyone else.
I also support the suggestions @WrathOfInnos made regarding transmutes a few posts above.Edited by Braffin on 5 September 2023 14:36Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭
Making overland more difficult won't change anything. This is just an excuse to ask for more difficult overland.If we want a general solution, it would be necessary to enforce skill progression by raising difficulty.
The only way to actually make the dungeon finder more appealing to decent (real) tanks is to make sure that the group they end up with won't be garbage.
The best way to do that is to seriously increase overland difficulty for everyone, so that people have to actually learn to play the game somewhat properly before they reach dungeons.
That won't ever happen though, because this game is full of people who refuse to improve and who start crying as soon as anything isn't braindead easy.
Right now the usual flow of difficulty in this game is interrupted by normal dungeons. Normally players flow from overland to normal dungeons, which is the next difficulty step. Normal dungeons is where players learn their role, their rotation, and how groupplay functions. Due to all new players encountering a fake role or speedrunner in 99 out of 100 dungeons they take part in, where dungeons do not even start or where they get dragged from boss to boss, they are unable to learn their part and are unable to improve themselves. Normally after doing normal dungeons players flow to veteran dungeons, but if they do that now, there is a very high chance they get kicked almost right away, as they do not know anything yet. Nor their role, their rotation, how groupplay works, or how boss mechanics work. Meaning, due to the current MMO state of the game, the usual flow from low to high difficulty is interrupted, causing barely anyone to flow into the endgame. (Most players not invested into the game yet, will stop playing due to this)
Overland difficulty is not a factor in this.
The current MMO state of the game, is make or break for ESO, if ZOS does not fix this the game will keep losing more and more players. This is also why I am always trying to get ZOS to fix this major issue, as it is gamebreaking. Even though it may not seem that way.
In addition to that, ZOS needs to remove the DPS-gap, by allowing more endgame playstyles than just the barswapping LA weaving one(which barely anyone wants to perform). This would also make even the worst DPS perform better in dungeon runs.
PS: I am someone who usually enjoys doing dungeons for fun, and right now I am not running any due to all the bad experiences I would have to subject myself to. (fake roles/speedrunners)
Edit: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641810/normal-random-dungeons-are-a-total-mess-for-new-characters
Making the game even more braindead easy than it is at present while chasing away veterans by nonsensical strict rules is a sure way to kill this game finally. Not only below-average players are supposed to have fun here, ya know?
Your "ideas" must not happen and should be opposed at every opportunity normally. Thankfully their implementation is out of the question anyways.
Not all do acceps that type of game play or Mmo - as yourself - it´s proven to be a good way to go, though.
I fully believe the poster isn´t trying to convince you (the one you reply to). It´s more a description of a proven concept and of cause, some very good ideas.
Eso will suffer as it is now - we haven´t seen it all yet. It´s like a chain reaction.
As said no one try to convince you
Well, you're trying to convince devs to implement changes harmful to my gameplay. So I naturally oppose your suggestions.
You made suggestions, right?
How would gameplay look like, from your perspective, which would be beneficial for both of us ?
Start with normal dungeons.
I'd suggest a toggle in the group finder tab, where players may decide between grouping in a classical way (1T 1H 2DD) and grouping regardless of roles. Should solve most of the problems regarding fake roles.
If that isn't sufficient we can talk about prerequisites someone has to fulfill to be able to join the "classical mmo" queue, as there would be already an option for everyone else.
I also support the suggestions @WrathOfInnos made regarding transmutes a few posts above.
Ok I can settle with that for the moment. Now the big one Can we get the devs onboard, so it can be tested ? After all we need to start somewhere - so the toggle is fine.
Ty
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