Fake Tanks are so prevalent I've had to Off Tank on my Healer

SilverBride · August 2023

The solution is to make being a tank more appealing so more players choose that role. The same for healers.

It's a lot more fun to run around blasting enemies than to just stand there keeping the boss's attention. And standing there healing the tank isn't all that exciting either.

Having way more DPS queueing than tanks and healers makes for long queues for the DPS so they get frustrated and fake it. I'm not saying that's right, or wrong, but that's why it's happening.

Amottica · August 2023

You have been around for a while so I expect you have had plenty of time to find a guild and are experienced enough of a player to be in a decent guild. I can understand a new player or one who does not play very much having to use the GF but one of your experience is a player I suggest sticking to your guild.

For newer or returning players I strongly suggest taking the time to find a decent guild you fit in. While I had to kiss a few frogs before I found the first of two guilds I am active in, it was well worth the time and effort as I do not have to deal with the issues people complain about with GF groups such as fake tanks and low DPS.

To each their own. I just chose the smoother route.

GimpyPorcupine · August 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

The solution is to make being a tank more appealing so more players choose that role. The same for healers.

It's a lot more fun to run around blasting enemies than to just stand there keeping the boss's attention. And standing there healing the tank isn't all that exciting either.

Having way more DPS queueing than tanks and healers makes for long queues for the DPS so they get frustrated and fake it. I'm not saying that's right, or wrong, but that's why it's happening.

Tanking done right is much more involved than just keeping the boss's attention. If done correctly, you're also taunting/chaining/cc'ing adds, dropping your synergy opportunities (e.g. Unnerving Boneyard and Agony Totem) and keeping your group buffs and debuffs up, all while positioning everything in the AoEs.

I'd say it requires a much tighter OODA loop than DPS, which is basically just keeping your rotation going while reacting to mechanics. Certainly more fun.

SilverBride · August 2023

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The solution is to make being a tank more appealing so more players choose that role. The same for healers.

It's a lot more fun to run around blasting enemies than to just stand there keeping the boss's attention. And standing there healing the tank isn't all that exciting either.

Having way more DPS queueing than tanks and healers makes for long queues for the DPS so they get frustrated and fake it. I'm not saying that's right, or wrong, but that's why it's happening.

Tanking done right is much more involved than just keeping the boss's attention. If done correctly, you're also taunting/chaining/cc'ing adds, dropping your synergy opportunities (e.g. Unnerving Boneyard and Agony Totem) and keeping your group buffs and debuffs up, all while positioning everything in the AoEs.

I'd say it requires a much tighter OODA loop than DPS, which is basically just keeping your rotation going while reacting to mechanics. Certainly more fun.

I'm sure some enjoy it, but why aren't there more tanks?

GimpyPorcupine · August 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The solution is to make being a tank more appealing so more players choose that role. The same for healers.

It's a lot more fun to run around blasting enemies than to just stand there keeping the boss's attention. And standing there healing the tank isn't all that exciting either.

Having way more DPS queueing than tanks and healers makes for long queues for the DPS so they get frustrated and fake it. I'm not saying that's right, or wrong, but that's why it's happening.

Tanking done right is much more involved than just keeping the boss's attention. If done correctly, you're also taunting/chaining/cc'ing adds, dropping your synergy opportunities (e.g. Unnerving Boneyard and Agony Totem) and keeping your group buffs and debuffs up, all while positioning everything in the AoEs.

I'd say it requires a much tighter OODA loop than DPS, which is basically just keeping your rotation going while reacting to mechanics. Certainly more fun.

I'm sure some enjoy it, but why aren't there more tanks?

I guess people believe it's harder than it is, which is a shame. It's really easy to play a mediocre tank and then start adding more functionality to the group as one gets better.

Amottica · August 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The solution is to make being a tank more appealing so more players choose that role. The same for healers.

It's a lot more fun to run around blasting enemies than to just stand there keeping the boss's attention. And standing there healing the tank isn't all that exciting either.

Having way more DPS queueing than tanks and healers makes for long queues for the DPS so they get frustrated and fake it. I'm not saying that's right, or wrong, but that's why it's happening.

Tanking done right is much more involved than just keeping the boss's attention. If done correctly, you're also taunting/chaining/cc'ing adds, dropping your synergy opportunities (e.g. Unnerving Boneyard and Agony Totem) and keeping your group buffs and debuffs up, all while positioning everything in the AoEs.

I'd say it requires a much tighter OODA loop than DPS, which is basically just keeping your rotation going while reacting to mechanics. Certainly more fun.

I'm sure some enjoy it, but why aren't there more tanks?

Because of far too many bad experiences with GF groups, we prefer to run with guildies and friends. Such a change led to a significantly more enjoyable experience and a guarantee of having a good run even when someone in the group was new and learning.

Veinblood1965 · August 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

The solution is to make being a tank more appealing so more players choose that role. The same for healers.

It's a lot more fun to run around blasting enemies than to just stand there keeping the boss's attention. And standing there healing the tank isn't all that exciting either.

Having way more DPS queueing than tanks and healers makes for long queues for the DPS so they get frustrated and fake it. I'm not saying that's right, or wrong, but that's why it's happening.

Truer words never written. I actually rolled a DK tank long ago when I got tired of waiting in queue for dailies. Was great for a while but got boring really fast. Now the only time I roll him out of mothballs is when I'm after a lead that is in one of the dungeons. He is so old he is still wearing Ebon Armor.

I mainly PVP now so not many changes that could be made to make me want to tank. However if I was PVEing there would have to be some incentive other than faster queue times. Maybe something like if you queue as a tank you are stuck in that role for 30 days in trials and dungeons and you also get extra keys for completing dungeons. Of course there are those that would complain about the extra keys and I'm not even sure the 30 days would work.

pelle412 · August 2023

Until players queueing for a role they do not intend to perform is against the terms of service there is nothing you can do about it. At the present time, it is a valid way to play the game according to the terms.

EDIT: I've played since early 2017 and the Morrowind release. It existed then and 6.5 years later still does. It's not going to change.

SilverBride · August 2023

pelle412 wrote: »

Until players queueing for a role they do not intend to perform is against the terms of service there is nothing you can do about it. At the present time, it is a valid way to play the game according to the terms.

There should be a way that the game checks the build and sets the role based on that, rather than on what the player reports.

valenwood_vegan · August 2023

In my experience it's not that there "aren't" tanks, but none of the good or even decent ones I know EVER PUG in the tank role. They tank for groups of friends, guildies, and friends of friends/guildies.

It's kind of a catch 22 - you don't really need a true tank in easy content, and people (especially tanks, from what I've experienced) generally don't want to do hard content with random strangers. Of course I don't have a solution for that problem, but the problem of getting bad random groups CAN easily be solved... make some friends / join some guilds / run stuff with people you know.

Obviously that's easier said that done, but it's worth putting in the effort! I look at the random group finder as an absolute last resort, and I seem to have much more enjoyable dungeon experiences than the folks who regularly complain about it on here.

pelle412 · August 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

There should be a way that the game checks the build and sets the role based on that, rather than on what the player reports.

There isn't and not likely to ever exist. ESO doesn't use class specs like for example WoW. In ESO you can tank a veteran dungeon with 17k health using fire staves as long as you have a taunt and using it. Tanking in ESO is a behavioral element rather than a setup/gear element.

Kartalin · August 2023

I don't necessarily mind fake tanks if they have a taunt on bar, or fake healers if they have a group heal slotted. Random normals are pretty easy except for some dlc ones that are more time consuming than difficult. If I'm doing vet pledges it's a little different.

However fake dps are more annoying. Have a build with a bare minimum of damage to move through the dungeon at a reasonable pace [snip].
[edited for profanity bypass]

valenwood_vegan · August 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

There should be a way that the game checks the build and sets the role based on that, rather than on what the player reports.

Just one more thing to add - I see ideas like this suggested regularly and imho the issue is that for every restriction (or method of filtering) that gets added into the group finder, the queue will get longer and the pool of available players will shrink.

Add a simple restriction like "must have taunt slotted", and people can still find ways to get around it and fake tank. Like remove the taunt once in the dungeon... or just refuse to use it. Eventually, add enough restrictions or filters and the difference between the random finder and making your own group blurs. And the complaints will just shift from "oh no fake tank" to "I queued and requested a verified dk tank cp 1600 or greater using an ice staff >30k health with at least 1 vet clear and I had to wait 16 hours in the queue".

Or you have the more extreme suggestion given earlier in the thread of essentially forcing every player through a "role test" every time they queue. That would likely substantially reduce the number of people using the random finder in general - if it's restrictive to the point of being inconvenient, why would an experienced player bother? At some point it actually becomes faster to just make your own group.

Not saying there's no merit to an idea about enforcing roles in some way, but I think it just heads down a road of replacing one problem with another one.

AvalonRanger · August 2023

I've been saying many times this idea like these type of thread.

"Make role grade certification flag and trial testing mission for it, and give them who has
higher class grade flag special reward each of time of grouping contents. (ex. gold material, of motif)"

Cheaters never do decent playing style without reward anyway.

Hotdog_23 · August 2023

Honestly, get maybe 7-8 fake tanks out of every 10 pug runs. No idea about healers because I never run without heals on my bar. Figure fake heals are just as high as fake tanks. Always queue as my role, never fake it unless It is agreed upon in guild runs. Which is generally farm runs.

This is an old issue with no real solutions. Sure, you could make someone slot a taunt or heals in order to queue said roll, but that doesn’t mean they have to use the skill, or they can’t change it once in the dungeon itself.

I don’t like it any more than anyone else, but it is what it is and the price you pay for pugging for the transmute stones and exp. If it wasn’t for fakers, I would never get in a dungeon run, lol.

Stay safe

SilverBride · August 2023

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Honestly, get maybe 7-8 fake tanks out of every 10 pug runs...
...If it wasn’t for fakers, I would never get in a dungeon run, lol.

That's a very good point. If it wasn't for fakers filling the tank role queues would be ridiculously long.

AvalonRanger · August 2023

ZOS should build friend only chat option. People may want to make friend with only decent role players.
So they're better skill players than just guild member mostly.

I've been tank main player, so my friend list are mostly DD main people.
I have 5 or 6 friend player at list now. They're people who proposed me friend relation, but they never contact against
me after that. Because, people can't notice each of friend player's situation precisely.(Busy or not)

If we can mention about our current situation against all friend list at once. Then, we'll make the queue waiting time
far more shorter, and never meet too much terrible fake role players anymore.

SilverBride · August 2023

AvalonRanger wrote: »

ZOS should build friend only chat option.

How would this work when we all have different friends on our lists? If we speak in the friends channel everyone on our friends list will see it. If a friend replies everyone in their list will see the reply, but those that aren't on both your friends lists will not know what you are taking about.

AvalonRanger · August 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

ZOS should build friend only chat option.

How would this work when we all have different friends on our lists? If we speak in the friends channel everyone on our friends list will see it. If a friend replies everyone in their list will see the reply, but those that aren't on both your friends lists will not know what you are taking about.

How would this work when we all have different friends on our lists?

When I'm in my tank or healer character, and I don't have much purpose,
I'm going to say "hey! my tank(or healer) is bored now. Is there any job for me?".
Then, DD main friend member will reply me, right? It's a simple logic.

I'm also some guild member. But I don't know all guild member. Don't know every member in my
guild is skillful. But I know friend member's personal rather than guild people. So I want to use
friend only chat tab.

endgamesmug · August 2023

Dont tank randoms itll totally put you off tanking, i used to enjoy it then after morrowind damage got really terrible so stopped- i only tank for friends/guildies. The culture around supports would have to change to make it attractive in organised group play i would say.

GimpyPorcupine · August 2023

I've encountered some really low DPS during the current double-XP event, which is probably coming from L20s in L4 training gear trying to power up new toons.

But in random normals, which I'm also doing for the quick XP bonus, it's not really a problem.

1) put some tanking sets on a necro with Unnerving Boneyard, Agony Totem, Inner Fire, Heroic Slash, and Smash ultimate.
2) Steed mundus, and slot Celerity.
3) Jog to the 1st boss, taunting and dragging as many adds as you can while occasionally proc'ing Minor Heroism.
4) Upon reaching boss, Totem, Boneyard, then Smash when everything stacks.
5) Necrotic Potency will get you at least 1 more Smash before the pugs burn the boss.

Now it frequently happens that the DPS won't figure it out even if you announce the plan in chat, but insist on killing the adds along the way. In that case, I just run back to pick up the loot and souls and catch up whenever. Bad DPS doesn't get too far ahead, and good DPS almost always figures out the game, which makes for lightning-fast runs.

UsualSurrender · August 2023

Fake tanks only exist because of "fake" DDs that make it painfully slow, or even impossible, to farm transmutation crystals.

There are 2 simple solutions to that problem:

1) Give the option to get the daily reward by soloing a random dungeon.
2) Make 2 separate queues for base-game dungeons and DLC-dungeons. That won't completely solve the issue, but knowing that we're all queuing for an quick and easy base-game normal dungeon should reduce the temptation to fake-tank.

Forcing people to wear certain sets, or punishing people for playing "the way they want even if it pains everybody else around them", are not a solution.

Necrotech_Master · August 2023

AvalonRanger wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

ZOS should build friend only chat option.

How would this work when we all have different friends on our lists? If we speak in the friends channel everyone on our friends list will see it. If a friend replies everyone in their list will see the reply, but those that aren't on both your friends lists will not know what you are taking about.

How would this work when we all have different friends on our lists?

When I'm in my tank or healer character, and I don't have much purpose,
I'm going to say "hey! my tank(or healer) is bored now. Is there any job for me?".
Then, DD main friend member will reply me, right? It's a simple logic.

I'm also some guild member. But I don't know all guild member. Don't know every member in my
guild is skillful. But I know friend member's personal rather than guild people. So I want to use
friend only chat tab.

the issue that silverbride brought up with that is you message your friend list

if your friend responds to you with a friend channel message, they are messaging their friend list to respond to you unless they whisper, so there will be 99/100 potential other people who will have no idea who that message is for or other context of the message