Accessibility is key for me.

Difficulty tiers:

• Delve
• Public dungeon
• Normal
• Veteran
• Veteran hardmode

Otherwise, only the vet hardmode crowd will end up progressing further and further, and everyone else will forget it exists.

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Accessibility is key for me.

Difficulty tiers:

• Delve
• Public dungeon
• Normal
• Veteran
• Veteran hardmode

Otherwise, only the vet hardmode crowd will end up progressing further and further, and everyone else will forget it exists.

When I first heard of the Endless Dungeon I imagined that there would just be a 'Normal' and 'Veteran' option, and that the difficulty would be in between Vateshran Hollows and Blackrose Prison or something (comparing it to the existing arenas made sense to me). But now that you mention it, that might be a bit too difficult for some players.

In any event, I'm curious as to what the difficulty will end up being like. If the class sets are actually good and usable in end-game PvE or PvP, I have a hard time believing that those sets will be added to something that's as difficult as a Delve though.

It is still not clear to me if "procedurally generated" means "random". Like, will the 1st boss be the same for everybody? And the 10th boss? And the 1,000,000th boss? Will all bosses be roughly same difficulty and it is just a matter of learning the fight and the mechanics? Or will each boss hit harder and attack faster and take less damage?

Could my 100th boss be a Lich with lots of adds and ranged attacks, while your 100th boss could be a giant flesh atronach with lots of snares who hits like a truck in melee range? If we get stuck, can we come back the next day and get a new procedurally generated boss? Or will everyone eventually reach a boss they simply can't beat and then you get tired of it and never go back to the endless dungeon?

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Based in comments I heard, It sounds like they are bringing in bosses from existing dungeons, arenas, trials, etc. Those bosses will probably bring their one-shot mechanics with them, if they have any.

Wonder how that would work with only 2 players though. 1 tank 1 dps? If it’s the version from Normal then could 2 dps dungeon bosses but I’m not sure about trials.

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

But if it is only meant for the competitive "end-game" demographic, then that makes it more niche content that caters to a much smaller portion of their playerbase. Considering the DLC dungeons have progressively pushed out casual players over the last couple of years, having content that everyone can enjoy would be a step forward.

DLC dungeons didn't push out casuals, they simply incorporated actual mechanics in their design and became more than "stand in one place and tank & spank". If someone doesn't want to pay attention to easily read boss telegraphs and not stand in the red AOE that's not the dungeon's problem that's a player issue. I am glad not everything is Fungal Grotto 1 difficulty.

End game players already have end game content so I suspect this will be tuned for general consumption likely with tiered difficulty and allowing companions for a "solo" experience to please as wide as audience as possible due to the segment of the player base who seems to be militantly against grouping for any reason.

It's great for the larger bulk of the population that Rich Lambert understands the value of accessibility, even though other players do not:

That's a difficult one because difficulty is definitely subjective. We have millions of players that play The Elder Scrolls Online, and a large portion of them find the game hard and the Overland content challenging, especially as a new player when you don't have gold, all the gear, and Champion Points. Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms. I also look back and remember we had harder Overland content. We had Cadwell Silver, we had Cadwell Gold, and players really didn't like it. It was too hard for them, and when we did One Tamriel, we ripped all that out based on player feedback. Like, nobody did it.

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

But if it is only meant for the competitive "end-game" demographic, then that makes it more niche content that caters to a much smaller portion of their playerbase. Considering the DLC dungeons have progressively pushed out casual players over the last couple of years, having content that everyone can enjoy would be a step forward.

DLC dungeons didn't push out casuals, they simply incorporated actual mechanics in their design and became more than "stand in one place and tank & spank". If someone doesn't want to pay attention to easily read boss telegraphs and not stand in the red AOE that's not the dungeon's problem that's a player issue. I am glad not everything is Fungal Grotto 1 difficulty.

End game players already have end game content so I suspect this will be tuned for general consumption likely with tiered difficulty and allowing companions for a "solo" experience to please as wide as audience as possible due to the segment of the player base who seems to be militantly against grouping for any reason.

It's great for the larger bulk of the population that Rich Lambert understands the value of accessibility, even though other players do not:

That's a difficult one because difficulty is definitely subjective. We have millions of players that play The Elder Scrolls Online, and a large portion of them find the game hard and the Overland content challenging, especially as a new player when you don't have gold, all the gear, and Champion Points. Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms. I also look back and remember we had harder Overland content. We had Cadwell Silver, we had Cadwell Gold, and players really didn't like it. It was too hard for them, and when we did One Tamriel, we ripped all that out based on player feedback. Like, nobody did it.

I remember back when I was scared of gryphons in Summerset… and I still liked DLC dungeons. Specifically Fang Lair… hence my profile photo . I loved working through mechanics, especially when no one else in the pug knew them. Granted, I do not have the experience of a casual trying to do earthen root or scriviners hall.

I just hope that this dungeon doesn't have rare materials (I'll just say Glass Eye of Mora), leads or furnishing plans that can only be found there.
I wish everyone a lot of fun with the endless dungeon, but for me it's just a hamster wheel, no matter if the space looks different every time or I'm attacked by different monsters.

Seraphayel wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Accessibility is key for me.

Difficulty tiers:

• Delve
• Public dungeon
• Normal
• Veteran
• Veteran hardmode

Otherwise, only the vet hardmode crowd will end up progressing further and further, and everyone else will forget it exists.

Accessibility is key and the endless dungeon should be available for every type of player.

However: rewards should be not.

Are you suggesting that some people in the community deserve class sets, and others don't deserve them?

Because if the endless dungeon is going to be accessible to people who can do easy, normal, hard and extra hard content, then everyone should get a reward who can complete their given tier of ability.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Accessibility is key for me.

Difficulty tiers:

• Delve
• Public dungeon
• Normal
• Veteran
• Veteran hardmode

Otherwise, only the vet hardmode crowd will end up progressing further and further, and everyone else will forget it exists.

Accessibility is key and the endless dungeon should be available for every type of player.

However: rewards should be not.

Are you suggesting that some people in the community deserve class sets, and others don't deserve them?

Because if the endless dungeon is going to be accessible to people who can do easy, normal, hard and extra hard content, then everyone should get a reward who can complete their given tier of ability.

That is a tough problem to solve. If the rewards are the same for normal and veteran then there is no incentive for anybody to do veteran. This is the problem we see with skilled players spamming into random normal dungeons and leaving the players suited for that content in the dust. Random dungeons would be more fun for everyone if vet rewarded the extra time and effort (with more transmutes at least, maybe more experience or better gear).

On the other hand, if the rewards are crucial to certain builds and only drop from content that is too hard for most players that leaves many unable to progress. There must be stepping stones to improve, and the gap cannot be too large.

In general I find that ESO strikes a nice balance with the perfected gear system. Every item can be obtained in easy mode, but if you increase the challenge there is a slightly better version available. The players looking to push the limits will put in the work for an extra 1-2% damage for example.

I can agree with this.

1-2% won't matter to someone running normal and below difficulties. But for someone who is number crunching and following a competitive meta, it can make a difference.

I just hope they take a page from Yoshi, and not from Ion Hazzikostas on how they manage this dungeon.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

It is still not clear to me if "procedurally generated" means "random". Like, will the 1st boss be the same for everybody? And the 10th boss? And the 1,000,000th boss? Will all bosses be roughly same difficulty and it is just a matter of learning the fight and the mechanics? Or will each boss hit harder and attack faster and take less damage?

Could my 100th boss be a Lich with lots of adds and ranged attacks, while your 100th boss could be a giant flesh atronach with lots of snares who hits like a truck in melee range? If we get stuck, can we come back the next day and get a new procedurally generated boss? Or will everyone eventually reach a boss they simply can't beat and then you get tired of it and never go back to the endless dungeon?

My experience with procedurally generated games is mostly with Binding of Isaac, where the term applies to the layouts of each floor in terms of where rooms are, which rooms you get (each floor has a number of rooms that can be picked each run), and what enemies/items/bosses you can find. Generally floor progression is the same, except for floors where you can have alternate versions once you unlock them (Burning Basement instead of Basement, for example), or in cases where you do specific things to reach certain floors, or are given a choice between two floor. Also, certain floors will always have a specific boss.

For example, every run will start out in Basement 1, and the boss of that floor can be one of several. However, there are a handful of floors later in the game where you will always face a specific boss. Going to The Chest will have you fight Blue Baby. I know these terms won't mean anything to you if you don't play the game, but essentially, it could be that yes, specific floors will always have a specific boss, or they might always be random, or they might always be the same but other things, like floor layout and any "items" or "power ups" that there might be are randomized, along with trash mobs.

As for difficulty, I imagine that later floor bosses will be harder to beat, regardless of what boss they are. I would also think there would be some sort of game over, or ability to end whatever run you're on without having to wait to lose. It wouldn't be a very repeatable thing if people could only get so far and then that's it. I imagine it'll be like any other dungeon, where you can leave whenever and when you do it resets. And you can save your place in Maelstrom, right? I THINK that's a thing? I would think they'd have some ability to save your progress in an "endless" dungeon, because if it resets every time you have to leave, then what's the point of it being endless?

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

But if it is only meant for the competitive "end-game" demographic, then that makes it more niche content that caters to a much smaller portion of their playerbase. Considering the DLC dungeons have progressively pushed out casual players over the last couple of years, having content that everyone can enjoy would be a step forward.

DLC dungeons didn't push out casuals, they simply incorporated actual mechanics in their design and became more than "stand in one place and tank & spank". If someone doesn't want to pay attention to easily read boss telegraphs and not stand in the red AOE that's not the dungeon's problem that's a player issue. I am glad not everything is Fungal Grotto 1 difficulty.

End game players already have end game content so I suspect this will be tuned for general consumption likely with tiered difficulty and allowing companions for a "solo" experience to please as wide as audience as possible due to the segment of the player base who seems to be militantly against grouping for any reason.

It's great for the larger bulk of the population that Rich Lambert understands the value of accessibility, even though other players do not:

That's a difficult one because difficulty is definitely subjective. We have millions of players that play The Elder Scrolls Online, and a large portion of them find the game hard and the Overland content challenging, especially as a new player when you don't have gold, all the gear, and Champion Points. Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms. I also look back and remember we had harder Overland content. We had Cadwell Silver, we had Cadwell Gold, and players really didn't like it. It was too hard for them, and when we did One Tamriel, we ripped all that out based on player feedback. Like, nobody did it.

You're going to have to define "accessibility" because the community has several conflicting definitions for that term that range from "ease of entry" to the game basically playing itself "for reasons". ZoS has never once defined the term accessibility despite using it as a justification for unpopular changes several times but logic would dictate accessibility for ZoS as a for profit business as ease of entry but not ease of mastery. Since DLC dungeons are restricted to level 46-50+ they ought not to be easy enough for someone with no build to ROFLstomp like FG1 which is a training dungeon for brand new level 10 players to learn how to run dungeons. Honest question how is paying attention to and avoiding well telegraphed boss mechanics inaccessible for anyone?

Also the quote from the article isn't talking about "accessibility" in terms that the forum does; it is talking about veteran overland which would be optional and hence accessible for the people with zero idea on how to play the game and would in turn be accessible for veteran players who know how to play the game and find little joy in one shotting things post One Tamriel. I

BasP wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

For how many people is this endless dungeon? I vaguely remember something about a dungeon for a player and a buddy. So, for 2 people, a player and a companion?

That's what I remember reading too. Hence I don't think that it will include mechanics that can't be done by companions, like stepping on plates you mentioned and stuff like that.

I thought this could never be done? It was discussed before in this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/573348/is-it-possible-to-tell-your-companion-to-move-to-a-specific-place
and the conclusion was that you can't tell companions to move to a specific spot, e.g. a pressure plate they have to stand on.

I probably should have worded that differently. I meant that I don't think it will include stepping plates precisely because companions can't do them. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

No apologies needed. Text can always be misinterpreted, and any of us can write something that turns out to be unclear, I've done it heaps of times myself. Thanks for the clarification.

I'd expect it to ramp up in difficulty from overland to impossible at each individual stage. Provided the difficulty changes are gradual rather than large abrupt steps then I'd think that would work out ok.

That way it'd be open to players of any skill level with, obviously, damage dealing demi-gods progressing furthest in terms of stages passed. The sets would hopefully drop randomly and curated at the end of each stage passed like current arenas so anyone/everyone would have access to all available sets, the difference being the aforementioned demi-gods would be able to get them all in a single run while lesser mortals would need to re-run it several times. It would be a huge disappointment if any of the proposed sets were gated behind hard dps checks.