Group BGs are Dead - PCNA

Aldoss · June 2023

I guess I'm not sure why this isn't a huge embarrassment for ZOS. A game that boasts millions of active players, but somehow can't get 12 players to group queue for a BG in under 15-20 minutes at prime time, any day of the week.

My wife and I fell in love with BGs a few years ago. It's basically all we play. ESO is a social game, so it makes sense that there should be avenues where people can group and do activities together. We'd normally BG for a few hours every night.

We just recently had a baby so our play time is extremely limited. We have a one hour window after he goes to bed where we can log into ESO. Most nights, we sit in queue for 30-40min and then log off because they don't pop.

My annual sub renewal was due today. I chose not to renew it. Give BGers anything of substance in an update or show that you care about this micro-community and you can win that sub back, but as of now, I'll put those funds elsewhere.

jaws343 · June 2023

This isn't anything new, player have been complaining about Group Queue BGs in all the time they were in place. They are an imbalanced nightmare, especially for "solo" players just looking for a match. And not everyone has time, or wants to, pvp with the same 3 people constantly.

But really, BGs are fairly dead outside of "events" due to a few reasons, the largest of which is they are, as a whole, terribly balanced. The game modes, outside of death match, are terribly designed. And they have been stagnant for years now.

gariondavey · June 2023

@ZOS_Kevin

OBJnoob · June 2023

Ugh. Let's not turn this into a "obj modes suck" conversation when it really doesn't have to be. There are other more objective things that can be blamed such as a leaderboard that never works, a lack of new content, underwhelming rewards, and also players just leaving for other reasons entirely: U35 for instance, or just that ESO is an old game these days.

For all you know @jaws343 the OP and his wife don't like Deathmatch. It's really not part of this conversation. Unless you just really really want it to be.

@Aldoss I think one thing that might be hurting you is constantly queing as 2 people. So your team can only be filled by another duo or by two solos. I feel like "the" que probably pops slightly more often than "your" que pops. Maybe find two more people to join you, if possible, it might help. But I know that's easier said than done.

But whatever the case, it would certainly be nice if the game could somehow find a way to incentivize more people playing BGs.

And while I'm not a HUGE fan of the BG weekends I will say that ques pop pretty fast for me under these conditions and I see a lot of fresh faces. So I give the game credit for this. I just wish there were a way to carry these gains through the period between BG weekends.

jaws343 · June 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Ugh. Let's not turn this into a "obj modes suck" conversation when it really doesn't have to be. There are other more objective things that can be blamed such as a leaderboard that never works, a lack of new content, underwhelming rewards, and also players just leaving for other reasons entirely: U35 for instance, or just that ESO is an old game these days.

For all you know @jaws343 the OP and his wife don't like Deathmatch. It's really not part of this conversation. Unless you just really really want it to be.

@Aldoss I think one thing that might be hurting you is constantly queing as 2 people. So your team can only be filled by another duo or by two solos. I feel like "the" que probably pops slightly more often than "your" que pops. Maybe find two more people to join you, if possible, it might help. But I know that's easier said than done.

But whatever the case, it would certainly be nice if the game could somehow find a way to incentivize more people playing BGs.

And while I'm not a HUGE fan of the BG weekends I will say that ques pop pretty fast for me under these conditions and I see a lot of fresh faces. So I give the game credit for this. I just wish there were a way to carry these gains through the period between BG weekends.

It is part of it though and relevant. If people don't like 80% of the game modes, they aren't going to participate. Which leads to lower queues.

Jierdanit · June 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Ugh. Let's not turn this into a "obj modes suck" conversation when it really doesn't have to be. There are other more objective things that can be blamed such as a leaderboard that never works, a lack of new content, underwhelming rewards, and also players just leaving for other reasons entirely: U35 for instance, or just that ESO is an old game these days.

For all you know @jaws343 the OP and his wife don't like Deathmatch. It's really not part of this conversation. Unless you just really really want it to be.

@Aldoss I think one thing that might be hurting you is constantly queing as 2 people. So your team can only be filled by another duo or by two solos. I feel like "the" que probably pops slightly more often than "your" que pops. Maybe find two more people to join you, if possible, it might help. But I know that's easier said than done.

But whatever the case, it would certainly be nice if the game could somehow find a way to incentivize more people playing BGs.

And while I'm not a HUGE fan of the BG weekends I will say that ques pop pretty fast for me under these conditions and I see a lot of fresh faces. So I give the game credit for this. I just wish there were a way to carry these gains through the period between BG weekends.

Of course the gamemodes are part of the conversation. I've been mainly playing BGs on PC EU for a while now and almost every other player i talk to who does BGs by far prefers Deathmatch over any of the other modes.
People who dont prefer Deathmatch are usually mainly PvE players who just want to get their BG rewards without really having to PvP for it.

That is also most likely why you get a decent amount of fresh faces during BG weekends, because PvE players do more BGs than usual because either the rewards are better or because they know what mode comes before queuing. However barely any of those new players will stay in BGs once the event ends.

OBJnoob · June 2023

Yes but if you want to have a resurgence for BGs infused by new players you need to cater to an audience other than those of us who love PvP, have been doing it for years, and are rather good. You won't increase participation by pleasing those who already participate. So while people can rightfully claim things like "80% of people I routinely talk to prefer DM," I think the neglected statistic is that "well that's 80% of people who already do BGs." As such it's almost useless information in the context of how can we find more people.

The diehards that have exhausted every scroll farm, chaosball, Emp push, blahblah... Yes, I understand they are bored and only want to fight competatively. But the PvE players, as you describe, who participate on BG weekends or only do it for the daily reward... These are our prospective new recruits. And if they like running from flag to flag or stealth capping relics then other people might just have to accept that. It might even help if they weren't spawn camped for 15 minutes by DM protesters that later come online and refer to them as trashcans and cowards for wanting to do something so ridiculous as "win the game by the rules of the game."

And to be clear I don't mean to insinuate any of YOU have said these things or feel that way. But through other conversations I've had about this topic I have learned that this is a fairly common sentiment. It is difficult for me not to join the conversations in my mind as one long ongoing topic, and in fact why I came here to say "hey, do we need to be talking about this here?" Because it seems like any BG related thread gets dragged into this. Two people show up, say something bad about obj modes, then someone tags a mod like "hey, SEE? THIS needs attention. Another example," but it really wasn't another example was it?

I recognize that there are problems with some of the obj modes. But I think they are small isolated problems that don't require a total rework. Make it so you can't be immune to bashing when picking up a relic. Take away the weird glitch ledges people will hold the Chaosball on.

But if you think DM doesn't have problems then you're not being honest. People don't DIE. Until this is fixed it is good to have variable objectives and means to end the game. It opens up a greater diversity of builds and playstyle which therefore pleases a larger audience-- particularly those that don't already brawl on a meta set-up and are nigh unkillable v 4 opponents ALONE much less with a healer at their backs. The same problem we have in duels. The same problem we have in open world. THE problem with THE game that some of us are glad to have an alternative to even if that also isn't perfect.

But anyway... I'm super off topic and guilty of my own complaint at this point... @Aldoss can I ask what your favorite bg mode is? And your wife's? I'm just very curious now. Because I will feel vindicated somewhat depending on your answer. But please be honest!

jaws343 · June 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes but if you want to have a resurgence for BGs infused by new players you need to cater to an audience other than those of us who love PvP, have been doing it for years, and are rather good. You won't increase participation by pleasing those who already participate. So while people can rightfully claim things like "80% of people I routinely talk to prefer DM," I think the neglected statistic is that "well that's 80% of people who already do BGs." As such it's almost useless information in the context of how can we find more people.

The diehards that have exhausted every scroll farm, chaosball, Emp push, blahblah... Yes, I understand they are bored and only want to fight competatively. But the PvE players, as you describe, who participate on BG weekends or only do it for the daily reward... These are our prospective new recruits. And if they like running from flag to flag or stealth capping relics then other people might just have to accept that. It might even help if they weren't spawn camped for 15 minutes by DM protesters that later come online and refer to them as trashcans and cowards for wanting to do something so ridiculous as "win the game by the rules of the game."

And to be clear I don't mean to insinuate any of YOU have said these things or feel that way. But through other conversations I've had about this topic I have learned that this is a fairly common sentiment. It is difficult for me not to join the conversations in my mind as one long ongoing topic, and in fact why I came here to say "hey, do we need to be talking about this here?" Because it seems like any BG related thread gets dragged into this. Two people show up, say something bad about obj modes, then someone tags a mod like "hey, SEE? THIS needs attention. Another example," but it really wasn't another example was it?

I recognize that there are problems with some of the obj modes. But I think they are small isolated problems that don't require a total rework. Make it so you can't be immune to bashing when picking up a relic. Take away the weird glitch ledges people will hold the Chaosball on.

But if you think DM doesn't have problems then you're not being honest. People don't DIE. Until this is fixed it is good to have variable objectives and means to end the game. It opens up a greater diversity of builds and playstyle which therefore pleases a larger audience-- particularly those that don't already brawl on a meta set-up and are nigh unkillable v 4 opponents ALONE much less with a healer at their backs. The same problem we have in duels. The same problem we have in open world. THE problem with THE game that some of us are glad to have an alternative to even if that also isn't perfect.

But anyway... I'm super off topic and guilty of my own complaint at this point... @Aldoss can I ask what your favorite bg mode is? And your wife's? I'm just very curious now. Because I will feel vindicated somewhat depending on your answer. But please be honest!

To be clear, my 80% number wasn't a population thing. It was very explicitly an observation on 4 out of 5 game modes are objective. And for people who do not like objective matches, that is a HUGE imbalance in game mode options they might get stuck in, and as a result, it isn't surprising that people aren't participating. It is even less surprising that people aren't participating in the Group queue, when, on top of that, and other game mode imbalances, you now have to deal with coordinated groups.

And I think the game mode imbalance is well beyond the simple fixes you laid out. Capture the Relic is a poorly reskinned capture the flag match that is, in most games, played between two teams, not three. Shoehorning a third team into what should be a team a v team b defend and attack mode is what makes it awful. The perma relic spam tanks, as well as the perma bash tanks, are just icing on the cake.

But in general, it is the roll of the die on game mode that keep the queues empty. DM players don't want to get objective modes for the majority of their playtime. Players who want Relic are forced into Domination type matches 40% of the time. This drives the queue population way down, when players lose not only game mode choice, but also lose out against the RNG of the game mode selection. Especially when it could take 20-30 mins to get a match and complete one. You could go hours without seeing the game mode you want to play.

As mentioned earlier, you see the queue go way up during the "event" weekends, where the entire BG is focused on one game mode. This is because players know what they are getting, they can properly prepare for it, and players who actually enjoy the game mode are drawn back in.

None of any of that makes the Group queue desirable though. I will contend that the Group queue has been consistently the worst thing about BGs. No one wants to play against a group that has min-maxed their builds and are just there farming the duos and solos who joined and got grouped against them. So, players run the solo queue, and at least get a bit of opponent variety game to game. At the very least, you know that the other team destroying you could eventually have some of those same players on a future team With you. Rather than ramming your entire play session against a 4 man that is farming the queue for hours on end.

React · June 2023

I mean, are you surprised? They haven't added a map or game mode in over 4 years, they haven't done any mechanical changes (sigils or something similar), the meta favors groups that stand in massive amounts of heals and 3rd party every engagement, and the "events" are actually a detriment to anyone that actually enjoys battlegrounds.

They've mistreated BGs (and pvp as a whole) so blatantly for the past 4-5 years, I'm surprised you can find BG games at all.

OBJnoob · June 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

To be clear, my 80% number wasn't a population thing. It was very explicitly an observation on 4 out of 5 game modes are objective. And for people who do not like objective matches, that is a HUGE imbalance in game mode options they might get stuck in, and as a result, it isn't surprising that people aren't participating. It is even less surprising that people aren't participating in the Group queue, when, on top of that, and other game mode imbalances, you now have to deal with coordinated groups.

And I think the game mode imbalance is well beyond the simple fixes you laid out. Capture the Relic is a poorly reskinned capture the flag match that is, in most games, played between two teams, not three. Shoehorning a third team into what should be a team a v team b defend and attack mode is what makes it awful. The perma relic spam tanks, as well as the perma bash tanks, are just icing on the cake.

But in general, it is the roll of the die on game mode that keep the queues empty. DM players don't want to get objective modes for the majority of their playtime. Players who want Relic are forced into Domination type matches 40% of the time. This drives the queue population way down, when players lose not only game mode choice, but also lose out against the RNG of the game mode selection. Especially when it could take 20-30 mins to get a match and complete one. You could go hours without seeing the game mode you want to play.

As mentioned earlier, you see the queue go way up during the "event" weekends, where the entire BG is focused on one game mode. This is because players know what they are getting, they can properly prepare for it, and players who actually enjoy the game mode are drawn back in.

None of any of that makes the Group queue desirable though. I will contend that the Group queue has been consistently the worst thing about BGs. No one wants to play against a group that has min-maxed their builds and are just there farming the duos and solos who joined and got grouped against them. So, players run the solo queue, and at least get a bit of opponent variety game to game. At the very least, you know that the other team destroying you could eventually have some of those same players on a future team With you. Rather than ramming your entire play session against a 4 man that is farming the queue for hours on end.

Yeah I botched my comment to you about the 80% thing I got confused, sorry, obviously not even what you were saying.

Ultimately, I hear you, but obviously we disagree about some important details. I just wonder if the OP also thinks that the poor design and/or existence of objective modes is a very large part of what keeps people away. And I look forward to hearing what modes he and his wife prefer.

Because the only complaints from him I see are "the group bg community is dead, it takes too long to que, you aren't getting me to buy ESO+ anymore if you don't provide us some new BG content and the community some love."

I'm not sure if they care what mode they get or not. And while it is definitely fair to suggest this as one possible solution to his problem, I'm not sure it ends there. So maybe don't wrap a bow on it and tag the devs just yet. Discussion still incoming... Hopefully?

I wouldn't be surprised if your last paragraph wasn't actually the problem. Solos duos and trios getting farmed mercilessly by premade metas and ending up quitting BGs or going solo que instead. Getting "farmed" by a bunch of flag cappers is quicker and less painful than getting farmed in a DM, I tell you that. And getting kill-farmed in an objective mode is probably the least fun thing ever.

mmtaniac · June 2023

On group bg should be forced 2 or 4 players only. Without enough players you just join to solo and your group should be disband and put you to solo queue in random group. You still have chance to be together but should be random. Being solo player in group of 3 people is not good too. Sometimes those people are ok sometimes is just impossible to play if group is 3 nightblades and you are alone templar or something. If you play in 2 person squad you can atleast work together somehow with that one person.

Necrotech_Master · June 2023

from my experience, its definitely a problem queuing as a group of 2

the fastest queue time is either as solo, or as group of 4

group of 2 is worse queue

group of 3 is the worst queue

RitualSmoke · July 2023

what time is that hour? Im PST but can try to q with my duo. we in the same boat

sabresandiego_ESO · July 2023

Get rid of group random que completely at this point and add some type of deathmatch only que.

Maybe duos deathmatch (can only que in a party of 2, no more no less)