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Cyrodiil – Towers at Resources and Inner Keeps – bad designs impair PvP quality
ShadowPaladin
✭✭✭✭
Hi @ all and hi @GinaBruno and @Kevin…
It is quite rare for me to create my own thread, but after playing the ongoing (July 2023) Whitestrake’s Mayhem PvP-Event, I do think it is more than necessary to talk about certain things.
First, please let me say ahead of all, that I do not want to complain about stuff like being killed over and over again or that others are way better then I am. That is something I don’t have a problem with, since I am quite aware that as a casual player, I won’t be so good as a Pro-PvP-Player
! What I do want is to point out, focus on and talk about things which do, at least from my point of view, impair the quality of the PvP play in Cyro not only for me, but for quite a lot of players.
Now which things do I mean? As the title shows I do mean certain Map locations, elements, as well as mechanics in Cyrodiil and how some of them negatively inflict the quality of the PvP play there. I am certain that a lot of PvP’ers now would start listing a lot of stuff here, but my focus is on two specific things, regarding Towers at Resource locations and Inner Keep Buildings.
While playing the ongoing PvP-Event I noticed that – as always – some players are primarily focusing on farming for kills and AP by using Resource Towers as their lure-in-and-hit-and-move-around locations. Especially those players who build setups specifically focused on just doing that. In general, that is or at least was not something to talk or complain about. But sadly, it now has reached a point where it became completely ridiculous.
I have witnessed during the last 8 days for at least 2 hours per day how 2-3 players are overwhelming 20 players by doing the afore mentioned thing. And before someone now says something along the lines of: *Those weren’t PvP-Players!*, let me clearly say: *No, I am talking about organized PvP-Player groups here!*!!! Also, tactics like storming the Tower or covering it with Siege-Weapons mostly don’t work, since those players would outmanoeuvre the group or the weapons won’t reach all places on and inside the tower.
In addition to that I also noticed that those same players are using the roofs of certain Towers to place Siege-Weapons with which they are attacking nearby Keeps. That itself is not a problem. The problem here is that those Siege-Weapons are not shown on the counter on the Map and that no one knows if a Keep is under attack or not, until it is already tagged, when in most cases is too late to react
.
This whole thing has become extremely frustrating and is – at least from my point of view and regarding some talks with other players I had – impacting the motivation of quite a few players to play PvP in Cyro.
(@GinaBruno and @Kevin)
The question now asked is, what can be done to reduce this frustration for the majority of the PvP-Players.
The simplest solution would be to make the Towers at the Resources destructible. But instead, as with Bridges or Keep-Walls, they should be far more easily destructible. So that even a small group with 5 to 10 players would be able to take such a tower down – let us say – within 2 minutes. With that players wouldn’t be able to hide for long inside the Towers and they wouldn’t be able to use them for long as Siege-Weapon base. Also, it wouldn’t impact the PvP-Play experience that much. It even may add to it, since we could destroy something
!
Another possible solution would be to prevent players from placing Siege-Weapons inside and on top of those towers (as well as Camps). The lure-in-and-hit-and-move-around thing wouldn’t be solved with that, but the problem with the Siege-Weapons not showing up on the map would be. This shouldn’t be that hard to implement and it also wouldn’t impact the PvP-Play that much. Sadly, it also wouldn’t really solve that much .
Creating a new item which could be used to instantaneously kill all enemies inside a Tower or take that Tower instantaneously down could be also a possible solution. Although this would require quite a lot of work and balancing and that said item would need to be only and ONLY usable for said purposes. So, this would be a more complex solution, compared to the others.
After talking about the whole thing with the Towers at Resources. I still need to talk about the problem regarding the Inner Keeps of a Keep. The focus here lies solely on the two “Home Keeps” of each faction. Although you could include all other keeps, since there, in some way, is a similar problem.
Now what problem I am talking about? The problem I am talking about is about an enemy group with 12 players sieging a keep, opening the outer door/walls and inner door, BUT instead of taking the keep, moving up to the 1st floor of the Inner Keep and start running around and killing everything and everyone. I do know that some may now say something like: *In that case, group up and kill them!* or *Build a Zerg-Group and overrun them! Simple as that!*. Sadly, it is NOT that simple!!! Those players in those groups are all focused on builds and play styles which makes those groups nearly impossible to kill, even if you try to hit them with 20-30 players at the same time, as well as with Siege-Weapons. I myself witnessed it 4 times on 4 different days during the event. Myself and at least 25-30 other players were trying to kill an enemy group doing the afore mentioned thing inside AD Black Boot Keep for at least 30-40min without any success. Those 12 players were able to outplay 25-30 players just by having a setup focused on doing what they were doing and using the 1st floor of the Inner Keep to their advantage.
I am aware, that some now may state that I said before, that I don’t want to complain about something like that and I don’t want to complain. So far, I wouldn’t say that this is something which needs to be addressed per se. Those players know what they are doing and we are just not lucky enough to get them killed . BUT!!! But! There comes another thing into play, which makes this whole thing ridiculous. That thing is the fact that the Keep wasn’t tagged anymore and all, yes “ALL”, walls and doors were 100% closed! The Keep was to 100% in the hands of AD, all NPCs were up and – regarding the map overview – it was 100% secure and save.
This is the point where quite a few players get extremely frustrated and demotivated to continue playing PvP in Cyro. For 30-40min and more they try to take down a group which can’t be taken down, in a Keep which is not tagged, belongs to their faction and which walls and doors are all closed. Those players start to ask themselves: “Should it be possible in this situation for an enemy group to be able to run around inside the Inner Keep(!), while the Keep itself is not under attack and tagged and all walls and doors are closed?!". This is a justified question. It’s a question to which there is only one possible answer to: “No, it should not be possible!”. Why, you ask? Because Keeps where not meant to be take by groups which do stay inside for ever, especially while the Keep itself gets untagged, is not under attack anymore and all walls and doors are 100% closed. Keeps were meant to be taken by attacking and tagging them, opening the outer walls or door, gaining access to the yard, opening the inner doors from there and then taking/flipping the flags inside the Inner Keep. Also, Inner Keeps are high security areas with a large number of NPC guards because of the flags. That makes them – let us say – special buildings, which should not be able to be taken without them being sieged. I do admit though, that there is in some way a certain challenge to it, when you try to take one of the smaller Keeps as NB by yourself from within. But nevertheless, it still shouldn’t be possible to do so without a proper siege
.
(@GinaBruno and @Kevin)
The question now asked is again, what can be done to reduce the frustration coming from this problem for the majority of the PvP-Players.
Compared to the other problem – regarding the Towers at the Resources – there seems to be (from my point of view) only one viable and at the same time simple solution to this matter. That solution would be the implementation of a Debuff or Mechanic for the Inner Keep. Said Debuff or Mechanic would be active only inside the Inner Keep and only while the doors of the Inner Keep, as well as the walls and the door of the outer Keep are all closed and the Keep is not tagged. The Debuff or Mechanic itself would be a HP-loss overtime or an instant death/kill with a slight delay of – let us say – 30sec. Bottom line would be that any enemies inside the Inner Keep would die after those 30sec are up. That would give those players 30sec to leave the Inner Keep or tag the Keep by going for the flags. If they choose to go for the flags it would then give the defending players a better chance to kill them, since they would need to stand near the flags which are in open space and therefore can be better targeted with siege weapons than a group of those enemy players running around on the 1st floor of the Inner Keep . In addition to that it would also prevent stealthed players (NBs) from staying inside Inner Keeps and taking Scrolls from them 
.
Best regards
Shadow
Edited by ZOS_Hadeostry on 11 July 2023 03:26 It is quite rare for me to create my own thread, but after playing the ongoing (July 2023) Whitestrake’s Mayhem PvP-Event, I do think it is more than necessary to talk about certain things.
First, please let me say ahead of all, that I do not want to complain about stuff like being killed over and over again or that others are way better then I am. That is something I don’t have a problem with, since I am quite aware that as a casual player, I won’t be so good as a Pro-PvP-Player
! What I do want is to point out, focus on and talk about things which do, at least from my point of view, impair the quality of the PvP play in Cyro not only for me, but for quite a lot of players.Now which things do I mean? As the title shows I do mean certain Map locations, elements, as well as mechanics in Cyrodiil and how some of them negatively inflict the quality of the PvP play there. I am certain that a lot of PvP’ers now would start listing a lot of stuff here, but my focus is on two specific things, regarding Towers at Resource locations and Inner Keep Buildings.
While playing the ongoing PvP-Event I noticed that – as always – some players are primarily focusing on farming for kills and AP by using Resource Towers as their lure-in-and-hit-and-move-around locations. Especially those players who build setups specifically focused on just doing that. In general, that is or at least was not something to talk or complain about. But sadly, it now has reached a point where it became completely ridiculous.
I have witnessed during the last 8 days for at least 2 hours per day how 2-3 players are overwhelming 20 players by doing the afore mentioned thing. And before someone now says something along the lines of: *Those weren’t PvP-Players!*, let me clearly say: *No, I am talking about organized PvP-Player groups here!*!!! Also, tactics like storming the Tower or covering it with Siege-Weapons mostly don’t work, since those players would outmanoeuvre the group or the weapons won’t reach all places on and inside the tower.
In addition to that I also noticed that those same players are using the roofs of certain Towers to place Siege-Weapons with which they are attacking nearby Keeps. That itself is not a problem. The problem here is that those Siege-Weapons are not shown on the counter on the Map and that no one knows if a Keep is under attack or not, until it is already tagged, when in most cases is too late to react
.This whole thing has become extremely frustrating and is – at least from my point of view and regarding some talks with other players I had – impacting the motivation of quite a few players to play PvP in Cyro.
(@GinaBruno and @Kevin)
The question now asked is, what can be done to reduce this frustration for the majority of the PvP-Players.
The simplest solution would be to make the Towers at the Resources destructible. But instead, as with Bridges or Keep-Walls, they should be far more easily destructible. So that even a small group with 5 to 10 players would be able to take such a tower down – let us say – within 2 minutes. With that players wouldn’t be able to hide for long inside the Towers and they wouldn’t be able to use them for long as Siege-Weapon base. Also, it wouldn’t impact the PvP-Play experience that much. It even may add to it, since we could destroy something
!Another possible solution would be to prevent players from placing Siege-Weapons inside and on top of those towers (as well as Camps). The lure-in-and-hit-and-move-around thing wouldn’t be solved with that, but the problem with the Siege-Weapons not showing up on the map would be. This shouldn’t be that hard to implement and it also wouldn’t impact the PvP-Play that much. Sadly, it also wouldn’t really solve that much
.Creating a new item which could be used to instantaneously kill all enemies inside a Tower or take that Tower instantaneously down could be also a possible solution. Although this would require quite a lot of work and balancing and that said item would need to be only and ONLY usable for said purposes. So, this would be a more complex solution, compared to the others.
After talking about the whole thing with the Towers at Resources. I still need to talk about the problem regarding the Inner Keeps of a Keep. The focus here lies solely on the two “Home Keeps” of each faction. Although you could include all other keeps, since there, in some way, is a similar problem.
Now what problem I am talking about? The problem I am talking about is about an enemy group with 12 players sieging a keep, opening the outer door/walls and inner door, BUT instead of taking the keep, moving up to the 1st floor of the Inner Keep and start running around and killing everything and everyone. I do know that some may now say something like: *In that case, group up and kill them!* or *Build a Zerg-Group and overrun them! Simple as that!*. Sadly, it is NOT that simple!!! Those players in those groups are all focused on builds and play styles which makes those groups nearly impossible to kill, even if you try to hit them with 20-30 players at the same time, as well as with Siege-Weapons. I myself witnessed it 4 times on 4 different days during the event. Myself and at least 25-30 other players were trying to kill an enemy group doing the afore mentioned thing inside AD Black Boot Keep for at least 30-40min without any success. Those 12 players were able to outplay 25-30 players just by having a setup focused on doing what they were doing and using the 1st floor of the Inner Keep to their advantage.
I am aware, that some now may state that I said before, that I don’t want to complain about something like that and I don’t want to complain. So far, I wouldn’t say that this is something which needs to be addressed per se. Those players know what they are doing and we are just not lucky enough to get them killed
. BUT!!! But! There comes another thing into play, which makes this whole thing ridiculous. That thing is the fact that the Keep wasn’t tagged anymore and all, yes “ALL”, walls and doors were 100% closed! The Keep was to 100% in the hands of AD, all NPCs were up and – regarding the map overview – it was 100% secure and save.This is the point where quite a few players get extremely frustrated and demotivated to continue playing PvP in Cyro. For 30-40min and more they try to take down a group which can’t be taken down, in a Keep which is not tagged, belongs to their faction and which walls and doors are all closed. Those players start to ask themselves: “Should it be possible in this situation for an enemy group to be able to run around inside the Inner Keep(!), while the Keep itself is not under attack and tagged and all walls and doors are closed?!". This is a justified question. It’s a question to which there is only one possible answer to: “No, it should not be possible!”. Why, you ask? Because Keeps where not meant to be take by groups which do stay inside for ever, especially while the Keep itself gets untagged, is not under attack anymore and all walls and doors are 100% closed. Keeps were meant to be taken by attacking and tagging them, opening the outer walls or door, gaining access to the yard, opening the inner doors from there and then taking/flipping the flags inside the Inner Keep. Also, Inner Keeps are high security areas with a large number of NPC guards because of the flags. That makes them – let us say – special buildings, which should not be able to be taken without them being sieged. I do admit though, that there is in some way a certain challenge to it, when you try to take one of the smaller Keeps as NB by yourself from within. But nevertheless, it still shouldn’t be possible to do so without a proper siege
.(@GinaBruno and @Kevin)
The question now asked is again, what can be done to reduce the frustration coming from this problem for the majority of the PvP-Players.
Compared to the other problem – regarding the Towers at the Resources – there seems to be (from my point of view) only one viable and at the same time simple solution to this matter. That solution would be the implementation of a Debuff or Mechanic for the Inner Keep. Said Debuff or Mechanic would be active only inside the Inner Keep and only while the doors of the Inner Keep, as well as the walls and the door of the outer Keep are all closed and the Keep is not tagged. The Debuff or Mechanic itself would be a HP-loss overtime or an instant death/kill with a slight delay of – let us say – 30sec. Bottom line would be that any enemies inside the Inner Keep would die after those 30sec are up. That would give those players 30sec to leave the Inner Keep or tag the Keep by going for the flags. If they choose to go for the flags it would then give the defending players a better chance to kill them, since they would need to stand near the flags which are in open space and therefore can be better targeted with siege weapons than a group of those enemy players running around on the 1st floor of the Inner Keep
. In addition to that it would also prevent stealthed players (NBs) from staying inside Inner Keeps and taking Scrolls from them .Best regards
Shadow
6
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Not a fan of stealth siege, eh?
Guess DE and EP are gonna have to hire contractors to take down those big walls behind Chalman and Aleswell, not to mention there's one spot in the open field near Arrius...
Lots of keeps have stealth siege locations. There's a specific "line" up on the wall behind Aleswell where siege won't appear on the counter that you'd better believe my PVP guild knew exactly where it was, and woe betide the member who set their siege up in front of where Crown was standing.
Back in my day when we had more players in Cyrodiil, people also used to ride the walls of keeps we expected to be attacked to check the common siege spots. We'd call it out on zone chat so people knew in time to react. No scouts? Too bad for us, we had to ride in because the attackers outplayed us.
Personally, I think stealth siege is a fine strategy that rewards attacking and defending players who have a keen knowledge of Cyrodiil's terrain and tactics. You can't rely on the counters for everything.Edited by VaranisArano on 10 July 2023 17:481 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭I always ride the d ring of a suspected next target. Everyone else is too busy looking for fights on the ground
PCNA
PCEU1 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I 100% agree with putting the tower door back on resource towers and to also make them destructible...
I used to love tower fighting...now it's just running in circles...
I appreciate those ball groups that occupy enemy keeps and make it a pain for opposing alliance players...
perfectly fine, if not incredibly annoying, combat tactic...
one thing I've noticed lately though is ball groups using movement speed buffs...
really really hard to kill a ball group that won't sit still for even half a second...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place2 -
ShadowPaladin✭✭✭✭I 100% agree with putting the tower door back on resource towers and to also make them destructible...
I do think putting back the doors wouldn't be a good idea, unless you also would make it so that no Siege-Weapons and Camps could be placed inside/on top of the towers.
The problem with the doors is and if I do remember it right, once was, that with doors players can barricade themselves inside, siege from top of the tower the keep and or the resource and no one would be able to do something, because anyone who enters would be killed instantly
.
Making the Towers destuctible would be enough, since you could just destroy the building while those Res-Tower-Farming-Groups are inside and collapse it on top of them
. 0 -
Jamie_Aubrey✭✭✭✭Yes, make towers destroyable again
It's always the same trolls that run around and you learn to ignore them or just run to the top and place oils on the edges, they eaither have to stay inside or come up and try and killRETIRED FROM ESOPC/EUFormer Empress & Grand Overlord Vex Valentino1 -
disintegr8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'd forgotten that we used to destroy resource towers. Not sure why it was taken away, or if it even was (haven't tried it in years).
As for unkillable players or groups, I just ignore them and move on. You can take a keep or outpost with them inside, if they manage to take it back, you simply come back and take it again. At least you get decent AP during the event for taking the keeps, more reliable than what you get for killing players when there are lots of you.Australian on PS4 NA server.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Best way to handle ball groups is to not chase them. If you chase them you are only letting them decide when to double back and thump you. It almost always happens in a narrow area where there is no escape and players fall for it over and over and over again.
In a keep you can kind of spread out a bit on the floor. Make them come down to you and when they run don't chase. Keep AoEs around the group at all times and load up on stuns and/or traps. Stuns will cause a player to fall a bit behind the group and when that happens unleash all hell upon him/her. Pick off the healers if you can. First and foremost though never chase. Never.
The problem with doors on towers was players inside would keep AoE on the door so you were dead before you fully loaded inside. I wouldn't mind being able to drop towers again but doors are a bad idea. Again with ball groups make them join you on the flag. Don't chase them. If they are sieging take a lap upstairs to knock them off siege popping any stragglers then get back out in the open. Towers ar perfect for ball groups because they are narrow (no escape) and easy to get out of line of sight. So take that advantage away from them and ignore them until they come out to play.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."3 -
RicAlmighty✭✭✭✭✭They should just replace the inner keep NPCs with town guards. That would show them!0 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowPaladin wrote: »Hi @ all and hi @GinaBruno and @Kevin…
It is quite rare for me to create my own thread, but after playing the ongoing (July 2023) Whitestrake’s Mayhem PvP-Event, I do think it is more than necessary to talk about certain things.
First, please let me say ahead of all, that I do not want to complain about stuff like being killed over and over again or that others are way better then I am. That is something I don’t have a problem with, since I am quite aware that as a casual player, I won’t be so good as a Pro-PvP-Player ! What I do want is to point out, focus on and talk about things which do, at least from my point of view, impair the quality of the PvP play in Cyro not only for me, but for quite a lot of players.
Now which things do I mean? As the title shows I do mean certain Map locations, elements, as well as mechanics in Cyrodiil and how some of them negatively inflict the quality of the PvP play there. I am certain that a lot of PvP’ers now would start listing a lot of stuff here, but my focus is on two specific things, regarding Towers at Resource locations and Inner Keep Buildings.
While playing the ongoing PvP-Event I noticed that – as always – some players are primarily focusing on farming for kills and AP by using Resource Towers as their lure-in-and-hit-and-move-around locations. Especially those players who build setups specifically focused on just doing that. In general, that is or at least was not something to talk or complain about. But sadly, it now has reached a point where it became completely ridiculous.
I have witnessed during the last 8 days for at least 2 hours per day how 2-3 players are overwhelming 20 players by doing the afore mentioned thing. And before someone now says something along the lines of: *Those weren’t PvP-Players!*, let me clearly say: *No, I am talking about organized PvP-Player groups here!*!!! Also, tactics like storming the Tower or covering it with Siege-Weapons mostly don’t work, since those players would outmanoeuvre the group or the weapons won’t reach all places on and inside the tower.
In addition to that I also noticed that those same players are using the roofs of certain Towers to place Siege-Weapons with which they are attacking nearby Keeps. That itself is not a problem. The problem here is that those Siege-Weapons are not shown on the counter on the Map and that no one knows if a Keep is under attack or not, until it is already tagged, when in most cases is too late to react .
This whole thing has become extremely frustrating and is – at least from my point of view and regarding some talks with other players I had – impacting the motivation of quite a few players to play PvP in Cyro.
(@GinaBruno and @Kevin)
The question now asked is, what can be done to reduce this frustration for the majority of the PvP-Players.
The simplest solution would be to make the Towers at the Resources destructible. But instead, as with Bridges or Keep-Walls, they should be far more easily destructible. So that even a small group with 5 to 10 players would be able to take such a tower down – let us say – within 2 minutes. With that players wouldn’t be able to hide for long inside the Towers and they wouldn’t be able to use them for long as Siege-Weapon base. Also, it wouldn’t impact the PvP-Play experience that much. It even may add to it, since we could destroy something !
Another possible solution would be to prevent players from placing Siege-Weapons inside and on top of those towers (as well as Camps). The lure-in-and-hit-and-move-around thing wouldn’t be solved with that, but the problem with the Siege-Weapons not showing up on the map would be. This shouldn’t be that hard to implement and it also wouldn’t impact the PvP-Play that much. Sadly, it also wouldn’t really solve that much .
Creating a new item which could be used to instantaneously kill all enemies inside a Tower or take that Tower instantaneously down could be also a possible solution. Although this would require quite a lot of work and balancing and that said item would need to be only and ONLY usable for said purposes. So, this would be a more complex solution, compared to the others.
After talking about the whole thing with the Towers at Resources. I still need to talk about the problem regarding the Inner Keeps of a Keep. The focus here lies solely on the two “Home Keeps” of each faction. Although you could include all other keeps, since there, in some way, is a similar problem.
Now what problem I am talking about? The problem I am talking about is about an enemy group with 12 players sieging a keep, opening the outer door/walls and inner door, BUT instead of taking the keep, moving up to the 1st floor of the Inner Keep and start running around and killing everything and everyone. I do know that some may now say something like: *In that case, group up and kill them!* or *Build a Zerg-Group and overrun them! Simple as that!*. Sadly, it is NOT that simple!!! Those players in those groups are all focused on builds and play styles which makes those groups nearly impossible to kill, even if you try to hit them with 20-30 players at the same time, as well as with Siege-Weapons. I myself witnessed it 4 times on 4 different days during the event. Myself and at least 25-30 other players were trying to kill an enemy group doing the afore mentioned thing inside AD Black Boot Keep for at least 30-40min without any success. Those 12 players were able to outplay 25-30 players just by having a setup focused on doing what they were doing and using the 1st floor of the Inner Keep to their advantage.
I am aware, that some now may state that I said before, that I don’t want to complain about something like that and I don’t want to complain. So far, I wouldn’t say that this is something which needs to be addressed per se. Those players know what they are doing and we are just not lucky enough to get them killed . BUT!!! But! There comes another thing into play, which makes this whole thing ridiculous. That thing is the fact that the Keep wasn’t tagged anymore and all, yes “ALL”, walls and doors were 100% closed! The Keep was to 100% in the hands of AD, all NPCs were up and – regarding the map overview – it was 100% secure and save.
This is the point where quite a few players get extremely frustrated and demotivated to continue playing PvP in Cyro. For 30-40min and more they try to take down a group which can’t be taken down, in a Keep which is not tagged, belongs to their faction and which walls and doors are all closed. Those players start to ask themselves: “Should it be possible in this situation for an enemy group to be able to run around inside the Inner Keep(!), while the Keep itself is not under attack and tagged and all walls and doors are closed?!". This is a justified question. It’s a question to which there is only one possible answer to: “No, it should not be possible!”. Why, you ask? Because Keeps where not meant to be take by groups which do stay inside for ever, especially while the Keep itself gets untagged, is not under attack anymore and all walls and doors are 100% closed. Keeps were meant to be taken by attacking and tagging them, opening the outer walls or door, gaining access to the yard, opening the inner doors from there and then taking/flipping the flags inside the Inner Keep. Also, Inner Keeps are high security areas with a large number of NPC guards because of the flags. That makes them – let us say – special buildings, which should not be able to be taken without them being sieged. I do admit though, that there is in some way a certain challenge to it, when you try to take one of the smaller Keeps as NB by yourself from within. But nevertheless, it still shouldn’t be possible to do so without a proper siege .
(@GinaBruno and @Kevin)
The question now asked is again, what can be done to reduce the frustration coming from this problem for the majority of the PvP-Players.
Compared to the other problem – regarding the Towers at the Resources – there seems to be (from my point of view) only one viable and at the same time simple solution to this matter. That solution would be the implementation of a Debuff or Mechanic for the Inner Keep. Said Debuff or Mechanic would be active only inside the Inner Keep and only while the doors of the Inner Keep, as well as the walls and the door of the outer Keep are all closed and the Keep is not tagged. The Debuff or Mechanic itself would be a HP-loss overtime or an instant death/kill with a slight delay of – let us say – 30sec. Bottom line would be that any enemies inside the Inner Keep would die after those 30sec are up. That would give those players 30sec to leave the Inner Keep or tag the Keep by going for the flags. If they choose to go for the flags it would then give the defending players a better chance to kill them, since they would need to stand near the flags which are in open space and therefore can be better targeted with siege weapons than a group of those enemy players running around on the 1st floor of the Inner Keep . In addition to that it would also prevent stealthed players (NBs) from staying inside Inner Keeps and taking Scrolls from them .
Best regards
Shadow
Yep I can't agree more. Well said.We Know...0 -
jerj6925✭✭✭✭Let us destroy towers again, but make repairing the tower take twice as long as taking it down.0 -
ZOS_HadeostrymodGreetings,
After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's about Cyrodiil.
Thank you for your understanding0 -
jle30303✭✭✭✭✭
✭I would agree with the point about enemies being inside a "closed" keep: it should not happen.
The doors of a keep cannot be repaired while the place is marked as "under siege". So, somehow, the keep is becoming unflagged even while there are enemies inside, for doors to be repairable while there are enemies in the keep.
This also should not happen.
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geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The problem with doors on towers was players inside would keep AoE on the door so you were dead before you fully loaded inside.
man, but i loved doing that...loved watching enemy players just keep streaming through the door...i've pretty much always been a solo player so, i didn't get to do this a lot, but, i used to look out the bottom tower floor windows to wave to the enemy looking in the window...
i remember worrying about the knucklehead folks fighting up on the second floor who didn't realize dragonknights could get in that way...
the few times i did camp in a tower and fight for 20 or 30 minutes was pretty darn fun...
PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place0 -
Olen_Mikko✭✭✭✭✭
✭The simplest solution is to just leave. Tower runners get bored when no one plays with them.NB enthusiastic:- Woodhippie stamblade - DW hard-hitter / PvE
- Know-it-all elf Magblade - Healer / PvE & PvP
- Hate-them-all elf Magblade - Destrostaff AoE monster / PvE
- Cyrodiil-Refugee stamblade - Stamina Tank / PvE
Go dominion or go home
Nightblade-Hipster. I played Nightblade before it was cool - from 1.5 onwards.3 -
ShadowPaladin✭✭✭✭Let us destroy towers again, but make repairing the tower take twice as long as taking it down.
That is a good idea !Olen_Mikko wrote: »The simplest solution is to just leave. Tower runners get bored when no one plays with them.
Yes, you are right. But sadly there is one problem with some of the Towers. From some of them you can attack the Keeps nearby, without the counter on the Map showing the sieges. The attack will only be noticed when the Keep gets tagged (wall/door 50% and below). Then you ARE FORCED to do something. If you don't, those players will keep on doing that until they are driven away, which is - as mentioned in the other post(s) - not always possible. With that you are back to the problem that you need a way to make sure that those players do NOT bind dozens of players at that Resource-Tower . The only reasonable way to do that is through destroying the Tower and forcing those Tower-Runners to fight outside. 1 -
NordSwordnBoard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I love siege from the resource, as much as I have to deal with it being used vs our alliance. You can false-flag a back keep to relieve pressure elsewhere. This is hardly a problem. A solo can do the work of 8 zerglings with 4 ballistae and that's fine.
Destructible towers were disabled by the devs. Try and think through the reaction of the tower players if you destroy it. Will they lay down and die? No, They will proceed to the next LoS, and you will have a bunch of empty rubble. You also can't destroy the barn or other buildings there. That is, if you can convince all the random players in the area to not flip the resource ownership where these tower farms are. You cannot damage a structure that your alliance owns. Somebody is always going to value 1500 AP over killing RunvXers.
Clearing people out of a tower used to be easier. Heals and tank meta have more to do with it than the tower itself. The servers also seemed to have difficulty with the animations, people would get stuck in walls, worse than that lag spike you get when keep walls upgrade from owning the mine.
Destructible Towers are not a solution for RunvXers using them. It's been done already and it does not work.Fear is the Mindkiller0 -
ShadowPaladin✭✭✭✭NordSwordnBoard wrote: »I love siege from the resource, as much as I have to deal with it being used vs our alliance. You can false-flag a back keep to relieve pressure elsewhere. This is hardly a problem. A solo can do the work of 8 zerglings with 4 ballistae and that's fine.
Destructible towers were disabled by the devs. Try and think through the reaction of the tower players if you destroy it. Will they lay down and die? No, They will proceed to the next LoS, and you will have a bunch of empty rubble. You also can't destroy the barn or other buildings there. That is, if you can convince all the random players in the area to not flip the resource ownership where these tower farms are. You cannot damage a structure that your alliance owns. Somebody is always going to value 1500 AP over killing RunvXers.
Clearing people out of a tower used to be easier. Heals and tank meta have more to do with it than the tower itself. The servers also seemed to have difficulty with the animations, people would get stuck in walls, worse than that lag spike you get when keep walls upgrade from owning the mine.
Destructible Towers are not a solution for RunvXers using them. It's been done already and it does not work.
That would only leave one option to solve the Tower-Farmer problem. That option would be changes to how and how often Def-Skills, Heal-Skills and Potions can be used during a fight.
For example. In SWToR it is so that you can only use ONE(!) Potion during a fight. You need to choose what Potion you want to use - Heal or Buff. Only after loosing aggro through escaping, dieing or winning you can use another one.
Regarding Skill usage an example would be an increase in resources needed for each consecutively used Heal- and Def-Skill. Meaning, that when you use a heal during a fight for the first time you need the amount of resources mentioned in the Skill-Tooltip. If you used it a second time during the same fight/while you still have aggro you need 200%, a third time 300%, a fourth time 400%, a fifth time 500% and so on. With that the usages would be limited and you wouldn't be able to rely solely on your Heal- and Def-Skills anylonger to win a fight. Atm there are already some Skills in ESO which do use that kind of mechanic. Although those skills do have a timed usage (after a certain time you can use them again without increase in resources needed).
I would guess with that most of those tanky-builds would crumble like a card house in a storm
. An additional positive side effect of the increase of resources needed to use a Def- and Heal-Skill would also be, that those Ball-Groups wouldn't be that hard to kill anymore *hehe* . Edited by ShadowPaladin on 11 July 2023 21:080 -
Just_Attivi✭✭✭I do love creative thinking to problem solve. Just my two cents from a mediocre PVP'er:
ramping skill costs with a timer is one thing (streak increases every cast within 4 seconds or whatever it may be) to keep powerful skills in line. I do think similar adjustments on some select skills may be warranted, but that is a whole discussion of its own.
However, skill costs ramping up per fight, while maybe not terrible on paper, would be miserable for 2 reasons off the top of my head.
1- sometimes the zerglings just dont stop coming in single file 1 by 1 (lets ignore a 1vZerg scenario for now). I manage my sustain and potion usage, and keep winning the fight. but if every skill had a ramping cost while in combat, Id quickly be outplayed by every heavy attack sorc just from skill costs alone, even if they had zero pvp experience. I'd hate to see the meta shift into 'just tank zergs of heavy attackers because its free to cast'
2- I first PVP'd about 18 months ago, and im /STILL/ stuck in combat, lol. They would need to fix the stuck in combat bug, otherwise with such a system, no resource pool in the world would be able to handle even a single cast.
I'm sure more experienced PVP'ers could find numerous other issues with such a system, but I like the creativity of a solution!
Regarding 'tower runners,' 'ball groups,' and most any coordinated set ups, the solution is pretty much always the same. Fight them on your terms, not theirs.
Are they trying to bait you into a tower? wait them out in a location more suited to your skills.
Are they trying to lure you into leaving your group and chasing a shiny by yourself? don't. It is generally just to pull lesser skilled players away from the pack to thin the herd, so they can then move in on their objectives more easily (which is logical).
Are they really stubborn and wont leave their crusty rock? Just leave. If you or your group cannot burst them down, let them get bored and move away from their favorite passion object.
If they are sieging a keep, eventually it will light, and eventually more numbers/more skilled or coordinated players will arrive to help (that is not to say any one individual is not skilled, as much as players using tower strats are usually built to run circles until you are out of resources, and when Line of Sight is their main defense, it is difficult to get around that solo sometimes)
Regarding debuffs in a keep and such, I've mixed feelings. Ive been repped into a keep before, fighting the players defending the entire time, and managed to still re siege inner and take it. They were epic moments. Taking that away with a debuff or instakill would feel really unsatisfying. a Better Idea imo, would be regarding keep condition and resources. much like resources currently buff a keep and its guards, maybe Guards on inner get buffed harder when all resources are owned/keep isnt flagged. Or maybe a Buff to the players of the alliance who owns it. That way that group humping inside either needs a really good fight, or to have their alliance come help from outside. Probably some holes in that idea too, just my two cents. I dont really dislike a group fighting inside an unflagged keep though, your alliance needs to help, or they can ignore it and lose it.2 -
BlakMarket✭✭✭✭ShadowPaladin wrote: »Let us destroy towers again, but make repairing the tower take twice as long as taking it down.
That is a good idea !Olen_Mikko wrote: »The simplest solution is to just leave. Tower runners get bored when no one plays with them.
Yes, you are right. But sadly there is one problem with some of the Towers. From some of them you can attack the Keeps nearby, without the counter on the Map showing the sieges. The attack will only be noticed when the Keep gets tagged (wall/door 50% and below). Then you ARE FORCED to do something. If you don't, those players will keep on doing that until they are driven away, which is - as mentioned in the other post(s) - not always possible.
Its 3 factions at war, just like any war there will be guerilla type warfare, tactics to distract/split a faction up especially if other faction is more populated.
If you would like to solve this problem form your own organized guild/group like others do to counter these small groups/tactics or like quoted above ignore them, they do get bored & will move on/log off.
Please dont try destroy a play-style that doesn't break any rules many other people enjoy just because it frustrates you, its PVP & if you're not enjoying that type pf PVP please go elsewhere on the map and look for the PVP you enjoy, Cyrodil/IC is big enough for everyone to have fun.Edited by BlakMarket on 12 July 2023 11:521 -
ShadowPaladin✭✭✭✭BlakMarket wrote: »ShadowPaladin wrote: »Let us destroy towers again, but make repairing the tower take twice as long as taking it down.
That is a good idea !Olen_Mikko wrote: »The simplest solution is to just leave. Tower runners get bored when no one plays with them.
Yes, you are right. But sadly there is one problem with some of the Towers. From some of them you can attack the Keeps nearby, without the counter on the Map showing the sieges. The attack will only be noticed when the Keep gets tagged (wall/door 50% and below). Then you ARE FORCED to do something. If you don't, those players will keep on doing that until they are driven away, which is - as mentioned in the other post(s) - not always possible.
Its 3 factions at war, just like any war there will be guerilla type warfare, tactics to distract/split a faction up especially if other faction is more populated.
If you would like to solve this problem form your own organized guild/group like others do to counter these small groups/tactics or like quoted above ignore them, they do get bored & will move on/log off.
Please dont try destroy a play-style that doesn't break any rules many other people enjoy just because it frustrates you, its PVP & if you're not enjoying that type pf PVP please go elsewhere on the map and look for the PVP you enjoy, Cyrodil/IC is big enough for everyone to have fun.
Hm... You say don't destroy *...a play-style ... many other people enjoy...*. According to what people wrote here, in other threads about similar things and what people did say ingame in Cyro, I find it quite questionable that *...many other...* do find that play-style enjoyable .
Take a look at what the common recommendation from quite a few people here and ingame is: *Ignore those Tower-Farmers!*. Most PvP-Players ingame, if told that Group X or Person X is at a Resource-Tower, will tell everyone to stay away, since those are Tower-Farmers (Tower-Ball-Groups, Tower-Trolls or Tower-Jerks) and just ignore them. After a certain time and a few tries against those players, the majority will stay away. Why? Because, its completely ridiculous to try fighting them and will only end in frustration and demotivation!
So, if 2-3 players do this *Tower-Farming* and the rest stays away and reasonable players are warning others about them and are telling ALL to stay away in the General-Chat, do you really think *... many other ...* do like this kind of play-style??? I don't think so
. It is more the opposite and that is why I did wrote my opening post. I wouldn't have done that if I wouldn't be convinced that *... many other ... * players are as frustrated as I am .
Also, I am not aiming at *destroying* a play-style. I am aiming at trying to find ideas about how to improve the PvP-Play for players and discuss them here... In this specific case regarding the Res-Tower-Farming and the Inner Keep Ball Grp thing.0 -
BlakMarket✭✭✭✭After a certain time and a few tries against those players, the majority will stay away. Why? Because, its completely ridiculous to try fighting them and will only end in frustration and demotivation!
Like I said, try having fun in forming you own group with coms to try counter these groups or be mindful that you dont enjoy those fights, ignore them & go look for the fights you do enjoy on the map.
Choose your own adventure!Edited by BlakMarket on 12 July 2023 19:321