You can Kill the Sorc Atro, Why Is the Arcanist Eye Scion Unkillable?

acastanza_ESO · June 2023

Title. Yet another example of the unfair way new class abilities are being favored over, in particular, Sorcerer abilities.
There is absolutely no reason this thing shouldn't have been given a health bar just like the other damage dealing persistent "pet" ult.
Either give the Eye/Tide King a health bar so we can kill it, or be fair to Sorcerers and remove the health bar from the Sorc atro.

To add insult to injury the tooltip on the Tide King is more than the single-target Atro, and ticks every half second instead of every second and to everyone in the AOE, the AOE Atro morph does more damage, but only ticks every two seconds. Yes, the Atro gives Major Berserk [iif by some miracle you can get someone else to activate the synergy and you get lucky enough to be one of the people that gets it[/i]. The only slight disadvantage is the slow tracking of the Tide King morph compared to the relatively fast tracking of the Atro, however, the Arcanist's insanely OP access to immobilizes and CC's makes this drawback a complete joke. The Atro needs a massive buff for this to be even remotely fair, starting with making it unkillable and returning its old duration.

Edit: People in this thread incorrectly arguing that it is "just a ground effect", this is not the case. Ground effect ults are ended/dispelled by negate. The Tide King/Eye Scion is not. When you Negate this pet it becomes temporarily stunned until the Negate is ended consistent with all the other killable pets, except that this one is unkillable. The behavior needs to be consistent. Either Negate needs to completely dispel it like it does the other ults, or it needs to be made killable like all the other pets. It is unacceptable for it to get special treatment.

tsaescishoeshiner · June 2023

Why does it need to be killable? It's not a pet ult. It's a ground effect like Elemental Storm or Nova or Dragonknight Standard. Even though the one morph moves.

I feel like I've barely ever seen the Storm Atronach get killed lol. If the enemy has time to hang out and kill it, they probably have the upper hand already, right?

colossalvoids · June 2023

I don't see it as a comparable ultimate in any way, more like rapid fire and morphs which "bow" isn't killable either.

Weckless · June 2023

TIL you can kill atro

EramTheLiar · June 2023

Because the ultimate isn't a pet. Atro also benefits from all the sorcs pet bonuses if I remember right. Arcanist ultimate is just a sky beam attack, the squid showing up is just an effect they added to make it look neat.

Solariken · June 2023

Sure the atro has the drawback of being killable (though very rare), but has the huge benefit of being a line of sight break for the caster as well as a clutch aoe stun.

You're not looking at the full picture, OP. Atro is a stronger ult in many situations.

acastanza_ESO · June 2023

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Why does it need to be killable? It's not a pet ult. It's a ground effect like Elemental Storm or Nova or Dragonknight Standard. Even though the one morph moves.

I feel like I've barely ever seen the Storm Atronach get killed lol. If the enemy has time to hang out and kill it, they probably have the upper hand already, right?

That's actually untrue, it is functioning pet ult, not a ground effect. I realized this when I found out Negate temporarily stuns it, then it resumes tracking after the negate ends (or is negated). That is 100% the behavior of a pet, not a ground effect.

acastanza_ESO · June 2023

EramTheLiar wrote: »

Because the ultimate isn't a pet. Atro also benefits from all the sorcs pet bonuses if I remember right. Arcanist ultimate is just a sky beam attack, the squid showing up is just an effect they added to make it look neat.

Nope, it is stunned by negate (it stops beaming but still floats there), then resumes beaming once the negate ends. Ground effect ults are dispelled. If it is a geoun effect ult it should end when negated but it does not. It behaves like a pet ult, it should be killable like a pet ult. It either needs to be made killable, or dispelled instead of stunned by negate.

CameraBeardThePirate · June 2023

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Why does it need to be killable? It's not a pet ult. It's a ground effect like Elemental Storm or Nova or Dragonknight Standard. Even though the one morph moves.

I feel like I've barely ever seen the Storm Atronach get killed lol. If the enemy has time to hang out and kill it, they probably have the upper hand already, right?

That's actually untrue, it is functioning pet ult, not a ground effect. I realized this when I found out Negate temporarily stuns it, then it resumes tracking after the negate ends (or is negated). That is 100% the behavior of a pet, not a ground effect.

It does not count as a Pet. There is no Pet/Companion chevron above its head, it does not proc Necropotence, and it is not buffed by Ritualist.

acastanza_ESO · June 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Why does it need to be killable? It's not a pet ult. It's a ground effect like Elemental Storm or Nova or Dragonknight Standard. Even though the one morph moves.

I feel like I've barely ever seen the Storm Atronach get killed lol. If the enemy has time to hang out and kill it, they probably have the upper hand already, right?

That's actually untrue, it is functioning pet ult, not a ground effect. I realized this when I found out Negate temporarily stuns it, then it resumes tracking after the negate ends (or is negated). That is 100% the behavior of a pet, not a ground effect.

It does not count as a Pet. There is no Pet/Companion chevron above its head, it does not proc Necropotence, and it is not buffed by Ritualist.

OK, then it needs to be completely dispelled by negate like all the other ground ults instead of just stunned like a pet.

Panderbander · June 2023

Both are incredibly easy to avoid, but making the arcanist pet targetable will only create yet another NPC body blocker that has targeting priority over players because for some reason priority goes players < NPCs < CRITTERS.

I'd much rather see ALL pets become non-targetable.

ZOS_Kraken · June 2023

Greetings,

After further review, we have decided to move this thread to Combat & Character Mechanics as we think it is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

Soarora · June 2023

Does atro last longer? It feels like it lasts longer. Not like you'd actually be able to kill the watcher when you have to continue running for the duration if you don't want to die. Atro I run away from then kill if it's in my way or just wait.

SandandStars · June 2023

Ever heard of Malacaths Band of Brutality? At release, gave 25% damage increase.

Ever heard of Oakensoul Ring? At release, gave Major Courage, Major Heroism, Major Protection.

Arcanist is a product of this same… culture.

jerj6925 · June 2023

You know they will nerf the Arcanist into the ground when sales slmup, but not the dragon knight or warden... oh no those two will live on as they are forever.

merpins · June 2023

The eye guy is a visual effect, not a pet. It's not effected by Necropentence, for example. So it's not a pet. Just an aoe ult with an interesting visual.

acastanza_ESO · June 2023

merpins wrote: »

The eye guy is a visual effect, not a pet. It's not effected by Necropentence, for example. So it's not a pet. Just an aoe ult with an interesting visual.

That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't follow the rules for other AOE Ults. It doesn't end when the caster dies, and it isn't dispelled by Negate (the actual creature is actually Stunned - that isn't the behavior of an "interesting visual"). If it is going to behave like a creature, it needs to be killable like a creature. If it is going to be unkillable, then it needs to behave like all the other ground based ults. You can't have it both ways.

Melzo · June 2023

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

The eye guy is a visual effect, not a pet. It's not effected by Necropentence, for example. So it's not a pet. Just an aoe ult with an interesting visual.

That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't follow the rules for other AOE Ults. It doesn't end when the caster dies, and it isn't dispelled by Negate (the actual creature is actually Stunned - that isn't the behavior of an "interesting visual"). If it is going to behave like a creature, it needs to be killable like a creature. If it is going to be unkillable, then it needs to behave like all the other ground based ults. You can't have it both ways.

Necromancer's first ultimate?

acastanza_ESO · June 2023

Melzo wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

The eye guy is a visual effect, not a pet. It's not effected by Necropentence, for example. So it's not a pet. Just an aoe ult with an interesting visual.

That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't follow the rules for other AOE Ults. It doesn't end when the caster dies, and it isn't dispelled by Negate (the actual creature is actually Stunned - that isn't the behavior of an "interesting visual"). If it is going to behave like a creature, it needs to be killable like a creature. If it is going to be unkillable, then it needs to behave like all the other ground based ults. You can't have it both ways.

Necromancer's first ultimate?

Pretty sure if you Negate the Colo it ends. The Eye doesn't end, it just gets temporarily stunned.

CameraBeardThePirate · June 2023

Ok but to be honest, giving Tide King's a health bar would likely be a buff if anything. It'd allow Arcanists to use it for body blocking, preventing interrupts and turning their already tanky kit into even more of a fortress.

Additionally, there do exist other skills in that grey area. Necro's Skeletal Archer/Arcanist get stunned by Negate but do not have healthbars and cannot be targeted. Although they count as pets, they cannot be commanded using the pet keybind.

Turtle_Bot · June 2023

Just some better standardisation would be nice (especially since the devs are trying to do that for everything already anyway, might as well do it properly instead of half ***** like it currently is).

Make "pets" actually count as pets so classes can build for pet builds (which would be helped by making sets for dedicated pet builds), or make them count as DoTs instead of some weird hybrid.

Maybe if cros archer/mage/blast bones/colossus counted as DoTs/direct damage/AoE abilities and gained benefits from corresponding passives this might help the class more than trying to keep those abilities as some sort of DoT/pet hybrid that doesn't properly count as either pets or DoTs that just makes them clunky and bad to use because they have their own undescribed and unintuitive ruleset for buffs they can benefit from or effects they can trigger.

JerBearESO · June 2023

We do not want targetable pets at all....

jaws343 · June 2023

JerBearESO wrote: »

We do not want targetable pets at all....

You say that now, until Sorcs get untargetable pets and you have two pets constantly attached to you, attacking forever, and a sorc heal spamming with zero chance of ever getting them to stop. Targetable pets means that you can kill them, and force sorcs into cast time abilities for heals and damage.

CameraBeardThePirate · June 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

We do not want targetable pets at all....

You say that now, until Sorcs get untargetable pets and you have two pets constantly attached to you, attacking forever, and a sorc heal spamming with zero chance of ever getting them to stop. Targetable pets means that you can kill them, and force sorcs into cast time abilities for heals and damage.

Killing pets does nothing against a good sorc though - they can take ages to kill and only take a moment to resummon.