xFocused wrote: »

Instead of nerfing DK & Carve, why not buff the other classes? Necro used to hit like a truck with it's dark con/smash bombs and now it's just...weak, at least that's what it feels like. DK Corrosive/Carve or Brawler is the current meta, absolutely, but nerfing it isn't the solution. Buff other classes that can compete with DK's

Because everyone running around as indestructible bombs is even more ridiculous than just half of them on one class.

Seriously. At least NBs and Necros had to chose offense over defense to do a portion of that damage.

katorga wrote: »

Corrosive is the problem, not Masters 2H and Brawler.

Playing the exact same build on my DK with hardly any skill points, minimal skill lines, versus my completely max out stamsorc is night and day. The DK just wrecks. The stam sorc, not so much. There is no way to compensate for 100% pen, 90% damage mitigation with other classes.

And because you can generate ultimate while corrosive is up means I can spam it for 100% uptime.

IMO, the build is broken/OP on DK, and balanced on Sorc.

I hard disagree with this. Corrosive does make it painfully easy to do, but proc cheese is a huge part of the reason it's effective in the first place. It's not to the same degree of cheese as corrosive armor is, but sets like that that allow you to easily nuke players(at least comparatively to non-cheese setups) contributes to how bad the pvp is.

Plus it's not like people are only running masters 2h, they're stacking all imaginable cheese combinations at once. They have corrosive, dark convergence, masters 2h, and interchangeable plaguebreak/vd. It's essentially like how people talked about hating double procs on everything meta but the difference is these are all aoe procs that scale up in damage.

These procs are probably here to say but I hope we do not get more procs that are "solution" to fighting zergs because this pvp meta has become insanely unfun.
It doesn't even feel fun to fight these players, and there's not a single fight where one of these players aren't present. I play primarily solo and it's to the point where I get zerged down by these same builds, but they're ineffective against 1 person. It might not effect me but it's pretty boring to fight these players all the time who just hope they can cheese you death

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Corrosive is the problem, not Masters 2H and Brawler.

Playing the exact same build on my DK with hardly any skill points, minimal skill lines, versus my completely max out stamsorc is night and day. The DK just wrecks. The stam sorc, not so much. There is no way to compensate for 100% pen, 90% damage mitigation with other classes.

And because you can generate ultimate while corrosive is up means I can spam it for 100% uptime.

IMO, the build is broken/OP on DK, and balanced on Sorc.

I hard disagree with this. Corrosive does make it painfully easy to do, but proc cheese is a huge part of the reason it's effective in the first place. It's not to the same degree of cheese as corrosive armor is, but sets like that that allow you to easily nuke players(at least comparatively to non-cheese setups) contributes to how bad the pvp is.

The Proc Cheese is substantially less effective without corrosive. If it is a DK bomber I don't survive, unless I am also playing a DK . .

Anecdotally, my baby DK has a 90% success rate. My NB, Sorc, and Necro (so bad don't bother), are maybe 50/50. Being unkillable during the bomb is the key point. I typically SURVIVE the bomb run, and end up with full ultimate and can perform a second bomb as more players rush in to try and kill me. As long as I end up with enough ultimate to recast corrosive, I can keep going. It is ridiculous.

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

It’s so much worse in this pvp event, it even before this… The brain dead carve builds with master 2H and corrosive just one button mashing their way through hordes of people with basically no weakness.

Honestly I’m not interested in a solo players take on this - When I’m solo, this BS is obviously not an issue. But even to the smallest group, this strat can be deadly and can basically be put on a tank.

Paired with dark convergence or rushing agony, and a bit of lag to prevent the blocking of these things, carve (an AOE spammable which gives a self shield) can hit for 20k on players… How is this not a clear issue?

Please ZOS look into toning this master 2H down. PvP has become the same handful of cheese builds recently ;
- Lightning heavy attack builds
- Carve spam with a pull set
Are the main 2. Heavy attack is getting toned down soon which is a great change and something almost every pvper who cares about balance wanted, but the carve meta needs looking at too please

If you get hit by 20k carves then you stacked with at least 20 players(6-10k carve base dmg tooltip+20*1.5k master2h dmg = 40k, 20k after battlespirit if there are no % modifier and bomber has corrosive armor, onslaught or higher penetration than you have resistance.). If you stack with over 20 players you deserve to get bombed because you make it impossible for a 1vXer or smallscale or even 12 man (non-ball)group to kill you and also very difficult or impossible for other alliances to get same number of players together especially if your faction has more players than other alliances on this campaigns. Often when one faction is PvDooring the whole faction is stacking with more players than both other factions have on whole map. 20+ players are more than fit in a group, they maybe fitted in a 24 man group before ZoS decreased group size if they are not more than 24 and carve area is so small that you probably hit only minority of the whole stack. If whole faction is taking a keep than they are still not stacked in a 7 metre cone, but divided in players at front flag, players at back flag, players in the courtyard, players at top and players standing a bit outside flags, so the whole pop locket faction must be on a keep for you to hit 20k carves and the ones ouside of your carve cone can often still hit you.
In real life if 50 humans stand at one location, you can also kill them all with a bomb. Does that make you as strong as 50 humans? No, you used a bomb as a tool of area destruction. You are still as vulnerable as other humans and can be killed by a single other human while not having an effective tool to kill him.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I'm not sure what the solution is but, yes, there are a TON of (typically very poor) bombers out there trying to cheese this strat.
Most of their bombs fail but when they do hit that glorious 1-in-10 success then it validates the entire playstyle.

For those vehemently defending the current tuning of the Master's 2H, however, ask yourself: what other stat-based Arena set can scale your damage as high as the current Master's 2H?

You get max stacks of, say, Chaotic Whirlwind and your damage increases by maybe 5%. You tag an enemy with the Master's Bow and get even less than that. The Master's Staff gets you perhaps 10%. Sure, those can increase all of your sources of damage, but we are talking about adding low 100s of damage to individual ticks whereas Master's 2H, due to the way that the damage is calculated, immediately begins stapling on thousands.

Which is NOT to say that the current epidemic of these bombers is solely the responsibility of the Master's 2H; rather, it is the confluence of several different imbalanced factors, including: Master's 2H, Corrosive Armor, pull sets, and the GIANT shield that Brawler applies that is wildly out of proportion to any other non-ultimate damage shield in the game.

This is, you might say, a "target rich environment" for choosing what to balance first.

Chaotic whirlwind buff helps in every situation, master dw as a single target dot is especially good in previously fair 1v1 or Xv1 where you already have advantage over your enemy.
Master2h is only useful when you fight big stacks outnumbered and have a huge disadvantage.
Master2h helps inferior outnumbered players to have a chance to win while master dw gives you an advantage in previously equal duells and turns a fair fight into an unfair fight. Thats why Master Carve is allowed to be much stronger than master dw. And as usual as faction stacks are atm tools like master carve are very much needed.

xFocused wrote: »

Instead of nerfing DK & Carve, why not buff the other classes? Necro used to hit like a truck with it's dark con/smash bombs and now it's just...weak, at least that's what it feels like. DK Corrosive/Carve or Brawler is the current meta, absolutely, but nerfing it isn't the solution. Buff other classes that can compete with DK's

They should revert graverobber nerf, they only nerfed graverobber to bring it inline with other synergys and harmony because it was intended for groups but used by solo necro bombers to bomb according to developer comments despite 1 morph of graverobber beeing the ability to take synergy yourself while other morph gives major breach.
Templar with plaguebreak could also spread plaguebreak very fast and kill players in groups to proc it using sweeps and jabs that is both AOE and single target spammable, so the same skills you also use to kill single targets.
They should give the function of the crystal explosion morph that was replaced by crystal weapon to base ability.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

It's obvious this is what it would devolve into some point. That's what happens when you use proc sets to try to fix problems in the game.

These sets that make this combo possible were all meant as a way to tackle overwhelming zerg PVP, but instead of actually doing something to nerf a zerg like making taking away healing power by getting rid of cross healing that keeps alive people who would otherwise die in battle, we just create a bigger and stronger procs to kill people with.

I've always subscribed to the idea that procs have greatly devolved pvp and trivialized the hell out of fighting in this game, and every year we get more of these procs that just trivialize combat. Now it's just equip the strongest zerg buster combination and pvp is easy.

This is what happens when you use a bandaid fix to a long-term problem. The wound just grows instead of healing.

I agree to an extent. When they took away cross healing it only made zergs, small groups, large groups, and ball groups stronger and harder to kill. Ask anyone who ran in a ball group, they would love for cross healing to be turned off again.

Besides that I agree with all your points. They introduced these sets after they buffed bombers to that stupid level where they were one-shotting everyone. Then they nerfed them into the ground and tried to introduce these sets to offset that nerf.

They never should have buffed bombers in the first place. They were in a really good place before they buffed them and helped to manage the mindless zergs running around.

I thought no cross healing was fine, it was either join a group or randoms can't save you from being killed. Which I think is fair. Right now if anyone is about to die, you just run into the group sieging the keep and it becomes difficult to kill that player (because cross healing). If you're going to zerg, then do it for real and not just surf the zerg.

It either forces you to group up or accept you're going to die. I think it makes sense to be saved by group member healing, but being saved because you ran into a crowd that you're not even running or keeping up with is kinda cheesy.

Ultimately, the main point I was getting at, they wanted to create counters to zergs, when they could've just easily taken away some power from the zergs, but instead what we get is bigger and better procs every patch as a way to solve issues, which albeit creates even worse issues. Not only that, zos seem to have no intent on stopping it either, so I await the next combination to supersede even this

No it isnt fine and it also doesnt make sense that if you stand in the middle of a group you get no healing if you are not member of the group but full healing if you are. Why is it ok if a ballgroup/other organized group is healstacking but not ok if a solo player is healing another solo player that gets zerged? No crosshealing or to be more precise only crosshealing inside groups was part of AOE tests. Probably ZoS thought crosshealing between groups(where solo players are their own group) isnt needed because most cross healing is inside groups anywayand not checking other players is a chance to reduce calculations.


Ballgroups would love cross healing between groups to be turned off because most of their healing comes from inside their group and wouldnt be disabled, but randoms from their own alliance following them wouldnt receive healing from the ballgroup and die and the enemy stacks they fight also consist of multiple groups and solo players.

Ungrouped players suffer the most from group only healing, will die first in big battles and blow their allies up even when they are good players.
Ungrouped healers become unable to do anything.

There are many reasons why players cant or dont want to group. Maybe a players doesnt find a group because his friends/guilds are offline, lfg groups are full or non existent and private groups dont take randoms. Maybe a player doesnt want join a group when he is only short in Cyrodiil or often afk. Maybe a player likes duelling and doesnt want join a group hunting solo players but gets zerged himself and runs to a group for help. Maybe a player doesnt want join a group because he wants
to decide where to go himself. Maybe a player is 13th member of a group or doesnt get invite because of bug.

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Instead of nerfing DK & Carve, why not buff the other classes? Necro used to hit like a truck with it's dark con/smash bombs and now it's just...weak, at least that's what it feels like. DK Corrosive/Carve or Brawler is the current meta, absolutely, but nerfing it isn't the solution. Buff other classes that can compete with DK's

Because everyone running around as indestructible bombs is even more ridiculous than just half of them on one class.

Seriously. At least NBs and Necros had to chose offense over defense to do a portion of that damage.

DKs also have to choose offense over defense and wear 3 offensive sets(Master2h, dark convergence/rush of agony and plaguebreak/vicious death) like necro bomber and cant wear heavy armor. When dark convergence was released necro was the tankiest class and much tankier than dk and spirit mender was much stronger heal.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

It's obvious this is what it would devolve into some point. That's what happens when you use proc sets to try to fix problems in the game.

These sets that make this combo possible were all meant as a way to tackle overwhelming zerg PVP, but instead of actually doing something to nerf a zerg like making taking away healing power by getting rid of cross healing that keeps alive people who would otherwise die in battle, we just create a bigger and stronger procs to kill people with.

I've always subscribed to the idea that procs have greatly devolved pvp and trivialized the hell out of fighting in this game, and every year we get more of these procs that just trivialize combat. Now it's just equip the strongest zerg buster combination and pvp is easy.

This is what happens when you use a bandaid fix to a long-term problem. The wound just grows instead of healing.

I agree to an extent. When they took away cross healing it only made zergs, small groups, large groups, and ball groups stronger and harder to kill. Ask anyone who ran in a ball group, they would love for cross healing to be turned off again.

Besides that I agree with all your points. They introduced these sets after they buffed bombers to that stupid level where they were one-shotting everyone. Then they nerfed them into the ground and tried to introduce these sets to offset that nerf.

They never should have buffed bombers in the first place. They were in a really good place before they buffed them and helped to manage the mindless zergs running around.

I thought no cross healing was fine, it was either join a group or randoms can't save you from being killed. Which I think is fair. Right now if anyone is about to die, you just run into the group sieging the keep and it becomes difficult to kill that player (because cross healing). If you're going to zerg, then do it for real and not just surf the zerg.

It either forces you to group up or accept you're going to die. I think it makes sense to be saved by group member healing, but being saved because you ran into a crowd that you're not even running or keeping up with is kinda cheesy.

Ultimately, the main point I was getting at, they wanted to create counters to zergs, when they could've just easily taken away some power from the zergs, but instead what we get is bigger and better procs every patch as a way to solve issues, which albeit creates even worse issues. Not only that, zos seem to have no intent on stopping it either, so I await the next combination to supersede even this

No it isnt fine and it also doesnt make sense that if you stand in the middle of a group you get no healing if you are not member of the group but full healing if you are. Why is it ok if a ballgroup/other organized group is healstacking but not ok if a solo player is healing another solo player that gets zerged? No crosshealing or to be more precise only crosshealing inside groups was part of AOE tests. Probably ZoS thought crosshealing between groups(where solo players are their own group) isnt needed because most cross healing is inside groups anywayand not checking other players is a chance to reduce calculations.


Ballgroups would love cross healing between groups to be turned off because most of their healing comes from inside their group and wouldnt be disabled, but randoms from their own alliance following them wouldnt receive healing from the ballgroup and die and the enemy stacks they fight also consist of multiple groups and solo players.

Ungrouped players suffer the most from group only healing, will die first in big battles and blow their allies up even when they are good players.
Ungrouped healers become unable to do anything.

There are many reasons why players cant or dont want to group. Maybe a players doesnt find a group because his friends/guilds are offline, lfg groups are full or non existent and private groups dont take randoms. Maybe a player doesnt want join a group when he is only short in Cyrodiil or often afk. Maybe a player likes duelling and doesnt want join a group hunting solo players but gets zerged himself and runs to a group for help. Maybe a player doesnt want join a group because he wants
to decide where to go himself. Maybe a player is 13th member of a group or doesnt get invite because of bug. [/quote]



Cyrodiil is literally PVP meant for group vs group fighting. It's large scale pvp after all. It kinda makes no sense for people to ungrouping in there anyways, even if people do it. Players should be encouraged to group in cyrodiil, especially since it's a team effort to win the campaign and not being able to be saved by randoms by cross healing encourages people to engage in group pvp, which is the point of cyrodiil. The point of no healing outside of groups is to encourage people to be in groups in the first place(which is the point of large scale pvp)
Otherwise let them die if they want to play solo. I should not be saved by other players, same as I shouldn't heal a random player who happens to run by me while I'm trying to self heal myself with my own Rapid regen.

I have no idea why we're making it seem like cyrodiil pvp is balanced around random solo players running behind a zerg.
It just isn't, cyrodiil is balanced around group pvp(therefore zerg pvp), and arguing cross healing for the randoms who just zerg surf is catering to solos who cyrodiil frankly is not even targeted towards. It's targeted towards the people who are going to group up and zerg fight each other.

Carve isn't a big deal. The real issue is corrosive and AOE pulls. Leave carve alone, adjust corrosive and completely change the function of dark convergence and rush of agony.

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

It’s so much worse in this pvp event, it even before this… The brain dead carve builds with master 2H and corrosive just one button mashing their way through hordes of people with basically no weakness.

Honestly I’m not interested in a solo players take on this - When I’m solo, this BS is obviously not an issue. But even to the smallest group, this strat can be deadly and can basically be put on a tank.

Paired with dark convergence or rushing agony, and a bit of lag to prevent the blocking of these things, carve (an AOE spammable which gives a self shield) can hit for 20k on players… How is this not a clear issue?

Please ZOS look into toning this master 2H down. PvP has become the same handful of cheese builds recently ;
- Lightning heavy attack builds
- Carve spam with a pull set
Are the main 2. Heavy attack is getting toned down soon which is a great change and something almost every pvper who cares about balance wanted, but the carve meta needs looking at too please

If you get hit by 20k carves then you stacked with at least 20 players(6-10k carve base dmg tooltip+20*1.5k master2h dmg = 40k, 20k after battlespirit if there are no % modifier and bomber has corrosive armor, onslaught or higher penetration than you have resistance.). If you stack with over 20 players you deserve to get bombed because you make it impossible for a 1vXer or smallscale or even 12 man (non-ball)group to kill you and also very difficult or impossible for other alliances to get same number of players together especially if your faction has more players than other alliances on this campaigns. Often when one faction is PvDooring the whole faction is stacking with more players than both other factions have on whole map. 20+ players are more than fit in a group, they maybe fitted in a 24 man group before ZoS decreased group size if they are not more than 24 and carve area is so small that you probably hit only minority of the whole stack. If whole faction is taking a keep than they are still not stacked in a 7 metre cone, but divided in players at front flag, players at back flag, players in the courtyard, players at top and players standing a bit outside flags, so the whole pop locket faction must be on a keep for you to hit 20k carves and the ones ouside of your carve cone can often still hit you.
In real life if 50 humans stand at one location, you can also kill them all with a bomb. Does that make you as strong as 50 humans? No, you used a bomb as a tool of area destruction. You are still as vulnerable as other humans and can be killed by a single other human while not having an effective tool to kill him.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I'm not sure what the solution is but, yes, there are a TON of (typically very poor) bombers out there trying to cheese this strat.
Most of their bombs fail but when they do hit that glorious 1-in-10 success then it validates the entire playstyle.

For those vehemently defending the current tuning of the Master's 2H, however, ask yourself: what other stat-based Arena set can scale your damage as high as the current Master's 2H?

You get max stacks of, say, Chaotic Whirlwind and your damage increases by maybe 5%. You tag an enemy with the Master's Bow and get even less than that. The Master's Staff gets you perhaps 10%. Sure, those can increase all of your sources of damage, but we are talking about adding low 100s of damage to individual ticks whereas Master's 2H, due to the way that the damage is calculated, immediately begins stapling on thousands.

Which is NOT to say that the current epidemic of these bombers is solely the responsibility of the Master's 2H; rather, it is the confluence of several different imbalanced factors, including: Master's 2H, Corrosive Armor, pull sets, and the GIANT shield that Brawler applies that is wildly out of proportion to any other non-ultimate damage shield in the game.

This is, you might say, a "target rich environment" for choosing what to balance first.

Chaotic whirlwind buff helps in every situation, master dw as a single target dot is especially good in previously fair 1v1 or Xv1 where you already have advantage over your enemy.
Master2h is only useful when you fight big stacks outnumbered and have a huge disadvantage.
Master2h helps inferior outnumbered players to have a chance to win while master dw gives you an advantage in previously equal duells and turns a fair fight into an unfair fight. Thats why Master Carve is allowed to be much stronger than master dw. And as usual as faction stacks are atm tools like master carve are very much needed.

xFocused wrote: »

Instead of nerfing DK & Carve, why not buff the other classes? Necro used to hit like a truck with it's dark con/smash bombs and now it's just...weak, at least that's what it feels like. DK Corrosive/Carve or Brawler is the current meta, absolutely, but nerfing it isn't the solution. Buff other classes that can compete with DK's

They should revert graverobber nerf, they only nerfed graverobber to bring it inline with other synergys and harmony because it was intended for groups but used by solo necro bombers to bomb according to developer comments despite 1 morph of graverobber beeing the ability to take synergy yourself while other morph gives major breach.
Templar with plaguebreak could also spread plaguebreak very fast and kill players in groups to proc it using sweeps and jabs that is both AOE and single target spammable, so the same skills you also use to kill single targets.
They should give the function of the crystal explosion morph that was replaced by crystal weapon to base ability.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

It's obvious this is what it would devolve into some point. That's what happens when you use proc sets to try to fix problems in the game.

These sets that make this combo possible were all meant as a way to tackle overwhelming zerg PVP, but instead of actually doing something to nerf a zerg like making taking away healing power by getting rid of cross healing that keeps alive people who would otherwise die in battle, we just create a bigger and stronger procs to kill people with.

I've always subscribed to the idea that procs have greatly devolved pvp and trivialized the hell out of fighting in this game, and every year we get more of these procs that just trivialize combat. Now it's just equip the strongest zerg buster combination and pvp is easy.

This is what happens when you use a bandaid fix to a long-term problem. The wound just grows instead of healing.

I agree to an extent. When they took away cross healing it only made zergs, small groups, large groups, and ball groups stronger and harder to kill. Ask anyone who ran in a ball group, they would love for cross healing to be turned off again.

Besides that I agree with all your points. They introduced these sets after they buffed bombers to that stupid level where they were one-shotting everyone. Then they nerfed them into the ground and tried to introduce these sets to offset that nerf.

They never should have buffed bombers in the first place. They were in a really good place before they buffed them and helped to manage the mindless zergs running around.

I thought no cross healing was fine, it was either join a group or randoms can't save you from being killed. Which I think is fair. Right now if anyone is about to die, you just run into the group sieging the keep and it becomes difficult to kill that player (because cross healing). If you're going to zerg, then do it for real and not just surf the zerg.

It either forces you to group up or accept you're going to die. I think it makes sense to be saved by group member healing, but being saved because you ran into a crowd that you're not even running or keeping up with is kinda cheesy.

Ultimately, the main point I was getting at, they wanted to create counters to zergs, when they could've just easily taken away some power from the zergs, but instead what we get is bigger and better procs every patch as a way to solve issues, which albeit creates even worse issues. Not only that, zos seem to have no intent on stopping it either, so I await the next combination to supersede even this

No it isnt fine and it also doesnt make sense that if you stand in the middle of a group you get no healing if you are not member of the group but full healing if you are. Why is it ok if a ballgroup/other organized group is healstacking but not ok if a solo player is healing another solo player that gets zerged? No crosshealing or to be more precise only crosshealing inside groups was part of AOE tests. Probably ZoS thought crosshealing between groups(where solo players are their own group) isnt needed because most cross healing is inside groups anywayand not checking other players is a chance to reduce calculations.


Ballgroups would love cross healing between groups to be turned off because most of their healing comes from inside their group and wouldnt be disabled, but randoms from their own alliance following them wouldnt receive healing from the ballgroup and die and the enemy stacks they fight also consist of multiple groups and solo players.

Ungrouped players suffer the most from group only healing, will die first in big battles and blow their allies up even when they are good players.
Ungrouped healers become unable to do anything.

There are many reasons why players cant or dont want to group. Maybe a players doesnt find a group because his friends/guilds are offline, lfg groups are full or non existent and private groups dont take randoms. Maybe a player doesnt want join a group when he is only short in Cyrodiil or often afk. Maybe a player likes duelling and doesnt want join a group hunting solo players but gets zerged himself and runs to a group for help. Maybe a player doesnt want join a group because he wants
to decide where to go himself. Maybe a player is 13th member of a group or doesnt get invite because of bug.

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Instead of nerfing DK & Carve, why not buff the other classes? Necro used to hit like a truck with it's dark con/smash bombs and now it's just...weak, at least that's what it feels like. DK Corrosive/Carve or Brawler is the current meta, absolutely, but nerfing it isn't the solution. Buff other classes that can compete with DK's

Because everyone running around as indestructible bombs is even more ridiculous than just half of them on one class.

Seriously. At least NBs and Necros had to chose offense over defense to do a portion of that damage.

DKs also have to choose offense over defense and wear 3 offensive sets(Master2h, dark convergence/rush of agony and plaguebreak/vicious death) like necro bomber and cant wear heavy armor. When dark convergence was released necro was the tankiest class and much tankier than dk and spirit mender was much stronger heal.

Yes but DK even with 3 offensive sets and no heavy armor; still takes only 3% their max health for damage. That's the problem. Maybe the answer is the new detect range impact on sneaking; but they should be vulnerable when attacking as well

katorga wrote: »

Corrosive is the problem, not Masters 2H and Brawler.

Playing the exact same build on my DK with hardly any skill points, minimal skill lines, versus my completely max out stamsorc is night and day. The DK just wrecks. The stam sorc, not so much. There is no way to compensate for 100% pen, 90% damage mitigation with other classes.

And because you can generate ultimate while corrosive is up means I can spam it for 100% uptime.

IMO, the build is broken/OP on DK, and balanced on Sorc.

Corrosive armor gives you nowhere near 90% mitigation, to give 90% mitigation the average dmg tick would have to be 9k(30khp)-15k(50k hp), althought the average spammable hits maybe 5k and skills like flurry, rending slashes, jabs, radiant opression, fatecarver bound armaments, lightning/resto heavy attacks deal multiple ticks of dmg and all dot skills and proc anyway. Most of the dmg when zerged comes from small dmg ticks and gets low mitigation by corrosive, often I get killed so fadt when outnumbered that it feels like corrosive mitigation is non existent, I doubt it is higher than 50% when getting zerged.
Also most of dks bomber dmg comes from master 2h brawler/carve spam when you are already attacked, while most of necro and nbs dmg comes from burst ulti, deto, blastbones and graverobber at the start of the bomb before the enemy players even notice you or break free from stun, so dk also takes more dmg while bombing.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

It's obvious this is what it would devolve into some point. That's what happens when you use proc sets to try to fix problems in the game.

These sets that make this combo possible were all meant as a way to tackle overwhelming zerg PVP, but instead of actually doing something to nerf a zerg like making taking away healing power by getting rid of cross healing that keeps alive people who would otherwise die in battle, we just create a bigger and stronger procs to kill people with.

I've always subscribed to the idea that procs have greatly devolved pvp and trivialized the hell out of fighting in this game, and every year we get more of these procs that just trivialize combat. Now it's just equip the strongest zerg buster combination and pvp is easy.

This is what happens when you use a bandaid fix to a long-term problem. The wound just grows instead of healing.

I agree to an extent. When they took away cross healing it only made zergs, small groups, large groups, and ball groups stronger and harder to kill. Ask anyone who ran in a ball group, they would love for cross healing to be turned off again.

Besides that I agree with all your points. They introduced these sets after they buffed bombers to that stupid level where they were one-shotting everyone. Then they nerfed them into the ground and tried to introduce these sets to offset that nerf.

They never should have buffed bombers in the first place. They were in a really good place before they buffed them and helped to manage the mindless zergs running around.

I thought no cross healing was fine, it was either join a group or randoms can't save you from being killed. Which I think is fair. Right now if anyone is about to die, you just run into the group sieging the keep and it becomes difficult to kill that player (because cross healing). If you're going to zerg, then do it for real and not just surf the zerg.

It either forces you to group up or accept you're going to die. I think it makes sense to be saved by group member healing, but being saved because you ran into a crowd that you're not even running or keeping up with is kinda cheesy.

Ultimately, the main point I was getting at, they wanted to create counters to zergs, when they could've just easily taken away some power from the zergs, but instead what we get is bigger and better procs every patch as a way to solve issues, which albeit creates even worse issues. Not only that, zos seem to have no intent on stopping it either, so I await the next combination to supersede even this

Iriidius wrote: »

No it isnt fine and it also doesnt make sense that if you stand in the middle of a group you get no healing if you are not member of the group but full healing if you are. Why is it ok if a ballgroup/other organized group is healstacking but not ok if a solo player is healing another solo player that gets zerged? No crosshealing or to be more precise only crosshealing inside groups was part of AOE tests. Probably ZoS thought crosshealing between groups(where solo players are their own group) isnt needed because most cross healing is inside groups anywayand not checking other players is a chance to reduce calculations.


Ballgroups would love cross healing between groups to be turned off because most of their healing comes from inside their group and wouldnt be disabled, but randoms from their own alliance following them wouldnt receive healing from the ballgroup and die and the enemy stacks they fight also consist of multiple groups and solo players.

Ungrouped players suffer the most from group only healing, will die first in big battles and blow their allies up even when they are good players.
Ungrouped healers become unable to do anything.

There are many reasons why players cant or dont want to group. Maybe a players doesnt find a group because his friends/guilds are offline, lfg groups are full or non existent and private groups dont take randoms. Maybe a player doesnt want join a group when he is only short in Cyrodiil or often afk. Maybe a player likes duelling and doesnt want join a group hunting solo players but gets zerged himself and runs to a group for help. Maybe a player doesnt want join a group because he wants
to decide where to go himself. Maybe a player is 13th member of a group or doesnt get invite because of bug.

Cyrodiil is literally PVP meant for group vs group fighting. It's large scale pvp after all. It kinda makes no sense for people to ungrouping in there anyways, even if people do it. Players should be encouraged to group in cyrodiil, especially since it's a team effort to win the campaign and not being able to be saved by randoms by cross healing encourages people to engage in group pvp, which is the point of cyrodiil. The point of no healing outside of groups is to encourage people to be in groups in the first place(which is the point of large scale pvp)
Otherwise let them die if they want to play solo. I should not be saved by other players, same as I shouldn't heal a random player who happens to run by me while I'm trying to self heal myself with my own Rapid regen.

I have no idea why we're making it seem like cyrodiil pvp is balanced around random solo players running behind a zerg.
It just isn't, cyrodiil is balanced around group pvp(therefore zerg pvp), and arguing cross healing for the randoms who just zerg surf is catering to solos who cyrodiil frankly is not even targeted towards. It's targeted towards the people who are going to group up and zerg fight each other.

Many players play ungrouped not because they want to play solo but because they dont find a group or at least no useful group. ZoS destroyed lfg groups when they reduced group size to 12 and private groups dont want play with randoms and dont invite them. Maybe they also cant join group because there group is full and they are 13th player or they are in queue for a battleground or they cant join group because „this player is busy“. ZoS also somewhen said there would also be 1v1 fights in Cyrodiil. Even well known streamers sometimes leave Cyrodiil because their friends are not available and they dont want play alone. How do you even meet other players when cant join PuGs, cant join private groups and get killed when following a group because you dont get cross healing. Cyrodiil population is already too low, they shouldnt make it unplayable for players without group that want to play PvP. When Eso is group only PvP every player must be able to join a group at any time, but they arent. Especially in off hours there are often no groups at all except on nightcapper faction. A few years ago playing solo was much more common, population decreased since then, finding groups got harder but solo play got destroyed. Private groups also disband because players stop playing ESO or have arguments. Zergs always consisted partially of zerg surfers, dont know why it is such a problem to play with players that you dont know without beeing in s group.. Maybe Cyrodiil was created for ZergvZerg PvP, but as the back then only PvP zone it also has to to be used by all other group sizes, Server cant handle 600v600v600 fights, player numbers also got to low and many players like playing solo or smallscale. Having big battles just sound more impressive and epic than duells or 4v4 when you advertise your game, that doesnt mean it is more fun in the end and other forms of PvP must be forbidden.
Imagine a PvP player returns after a long break, his friends and PvP guilds are offline, he enters Cyrodiil and types lfg in chat, but doesnt get an answer. He tries to play solo but gets zerged by not 1vXable Zerg. He types lfg again but again receives no answer. He tries to follow a group but dies because he gets no crosshealing, so he quits ESO again and never returns.
Cross healing for randoms isnt catering for solos, it works this way since the start of the game or at least since 2017 when i startet playing and was only disabled for a few weeks 2020/21 after AOE tests to improve performance, but it didnt improved.