Bring back inevitable det.

Lord_Invel · May 2023

Just as the title says ... can we have inevitable det be relevant again? I don't understand how we have an entire pvp skill line where inevitable detonation is not used in pvp at all and it's base tooltip is around 1800. It makes no sense to me that a single target ability with a cast time does absolutely no damage to a single target individual. Where is the risk to reward payout for casting this ability ever? Even in zergs it does absolutely no damage, so why not just remove the amount of aoe damage it does and buff it back to 12k or 13k just like curse. Make Proxy det the zerg busting ability and make inevitable det act like a sorcs curse. I think it would bring more build diversity back to classes like mag sorc since the class is pretty much straightjacketed in pvp to having one playstyle (aka spamming overload). As a mag sorc myself I don't like how overload is right now and think it should be reverted to it's old 3rd bar form but that's just a different story altogether. I still think bringing back inevitable det as a valid single target ability would make the game much more enjoyable from a mag sorc standpoint and a general gaming standpoint. Other classes can use it as well for some pretty sick combos like back in the day.

OnGodiDoDis · May 2023

Lord_Invel wrote: »

Just as the title says ... can we have inevitable det be relevant again? I don't understand how we have an entire pvp skill line where inevitable detonation is not used in pvp at all and it's base tooltip is around 1800. It makes no sense to me that a single target ability with a cast time does absolutely no damage to a single target individual. Where is the risk to reward payout for casting this ability ever? Even in zergs it does absolutely no damage, so why not just remove the amount of aoe damage it does and buff it back to 12k or 13k just like curse. Make Proxy det the zerg busting ability and make inevitable det act like a sorcs curse. I think it would bring more build diversity back to classes like mag sorc since the class is pretty much straightjacketed in pvp to having one playstyle (aka spamming overload). As a mag sorc myself I don't like how overload is right now and think it should be reverted to it's old 3rd bar form but that's just a different story altogether. I still think bringing back inevitable det as a valid single target ability would make the game much more enjoyable from a mag sorc standpoint and a general gaming standpoint. Other classes can use it as well for some pretty sick combos like back in the day.

It's just going to get purged. It's never going to effectively be used in PvP.

Lord_Invel · May 2023

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

Just as the title says ... can we have inevitable det be relevant again? I don't understand how we have an entire pvp skill line where inevitable detonation is not used in pvp at all and it's base tooltip is around 1800. It makes no sense to me that a single target ability with a cast time does absolutely no damage to a single target individual. Where is the risk to reward payout for casting this ability ever? Even in zergs it does absolutely no damage, so why not just remove the amount of aoe damage it does and buff it back to 12k or 13k just like curse. Make Proxy det the zerg busting ability and make inevitable det act like a sorcs curse. I think it would bring more build diversity back to classes like mag sorc since the class is pretty much straightjacketed in pvp to having one playstyle (aka spamming overload). As a mag sorc myself I don't like how overload is right now and think it should be reverted to it's old 3rd bar form but that's just a different story altogether. I still think bringing back inevitable det as a valid single target ability would make the game much more enjoyable from a mag sorc standpoint and a general gaming standpoint. Other classes can use it as well for some pretty sick combos like back in the day.

It's just going to get purged. It's never going to effectively be used in PvP.

I'm sorry ... but inevitable det always triggers even when purged. That's the whole point of the skill is it not? If it gets purged it blows up and causes damage anyway. And just because something gets purged does that mean it shouldn't be used? I could say that about dots or sorc curse in general. So because something gets purged does that mean it shouldn't be a viable skill with a viable tooltip that can extend build diversity?

Thecompton73 · May 2023

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

Just as the title says ... can we have inevitable det be relevant again? I don't understand how we have an entire pvp skill line where inevitable detonation is not used in pvp at all and it's base tooltip is around 1800. It makes no sense to me that a single target ability with a cast time does absolutely no damage to a single target individual. Where is the risk to reward payout for casting this ability ever? Even in zergs it does absolutely no damage, so why not just remove the amount of aoe damage it does and buff it back to 12k or 13k just like curse. Make Proxy det the zerg busting ability and make inevitable det act like a sorcs curse. I think it would bring more build diversity back to classes like mag sorc since the class is pretty much straightjacketed in pvp to having one playstyle (aka spamming overload). As a mag sorc myself I don't like how overload is right now and think it should be reverted to it's old 3rd bar form but that's just a different story altogether. I still think bringing back inevitable det as a valid single target ability would make the game much more enjoyable from a mag sorc standpoint and a general gaming standpoint. Other classes can use it as well for some pretty sick combos like back in the day.

It's just going to get purged. It's never going to effectively be used in PvP.

serious derp material.

maxjapank · May 2023

Inevitable detonation used to be a very real counter to ball groups. It still might possibly be, but being stuck in combat doesn't allow you to slot the skill very easily. And in general, you don't want to use it except when ball groups are around. I remember times in the past when players would yell to slot Inevitable when a ball group showed up. Then the constant pressure from 4-5 players casting this really put a dent in the ball group's survivability. They'd soon wipe or leave the keep they were running around in. It was particularly good when ball groups used Cleanse because the detonations would go off so rapidly.

mocap · May 2023

PB + DC + Inevitable can do something, i guess. Don't expect that you can spam range proxy left and right and think that it will destroy everything. "build diversity" - your words. You need to make a proper build around it.

If you are on non-cp campaign, then stack WPD/SPD or crits or some general sets: War Maiden, Rattlecage, Witch-Knight (4pc), Mother's Sorrow, Medusa, Spinner's, Deadly Strike, Ring of Majesty. Use uesp build editor and/or PTS for start.

Cast some aoe DoTs to ballgroup like Growing Swarm (if Warden), Soul Splitting, maybe Shooting Star, then spam Inevitable. And if you find some more people with such build, you will have the opportunity to do some damage to ballgroup.

But it's unlikely you'll do any of the above, so the ballgroups or even zerg don't have to worry

Lord_Invel · May 2023

mocap wrote: »

PB + DC + Inevitable can do something, i guess. Don't expect that you can spam range proxy left and right and think that it will destroy everything. "build diversity" - your words. You need to make a proper build around it.

If you are on non-cp campaign, then stack WPD/SPD or crits or some general sets: War Maiden, Rattlecage, Witch-Knight (4pc), Mother's Sorrow, Medusa, Spinner's, Deadly Strike, Ring of Majesty. Use uesp build editor and/or PTS for start.

Cast some aoe DoTs to ballgroup like Growing Swarm (if Warden), Soul Splitting, maybe Shooting Star, then spam Inevitable. And if you find some more people with such build, you will have the opportunity to do some damage to ballgroup.

But it's unlikely you'll do any of the above, so the ballgroups or even zerg don't have to worry

Sorry I don't think you understood my intentions with this post. I was stating that having inevitable det focused as a single target skill with a comparable tooltip to curse would extend build diversity among mag sorcs a lot more instead of straightjacketing them to an overload elemental weapon type of playstyle. If you actually read my post you would see that I stated inevitable det should have it's aoe damage lowered but it's single target tooltip should be like 12 to 13k instead of a pathetic 1.8k tooltip i.e. the risk to reward ratio for casting it and possibly being interrupted doesn't pay out due to the lack of damage. I'm simply asking for a reversion of inevitable det to it's old tooltip damage without such a high aoe damage if that's what zos is worried about.

Galeriano · May 2023

It would be just abused by zergs.

Lord_Invel · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

It would be just abused by zergs.

Okay ... but you could apply that type of argument to any ability. So does the same argument apply to sorc curse too? Oh zergs can abuse that skill and apply it on one or more people at a time, so we should make it's tooltip 1.8k now and not viable as a single target ability? Sorc curse is an instant cast with around a 12k to 13k base tooltip unbuffed ... why should inevitable detonation be 1.8k with a 1 second cast time?

Lord_Invel · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

It would be just abused by zergs.

Furthermore, I think that inevitable det should have high single target damage but low aoe damage whereas proxy det should have low single target damage but high aoe damage. An example would be if inevitable det had a tooltip of 12k to 13k where it only scales it's damage by 25% per person in the area and proxy det have a tooltip of 7k to 8k where it scales 100% damage per person in the area. It just doesn't make sense to me why these two skills are given to us as pvp skills and nobody uses them at all. And besides that ... I really enjoyed the times where dual wield mag sorc had inevitable det and curse combo at it's disposal. It's a fun skill to use which is why I want it to have some sort of viability again.

mocap · May 2023

I see. Well, sorc have plenty of delayed skills for burst like Crystal Weapon, Mages' Wrath, Rune Cage. And Curse. It might be worth building around them and forget about Detonation until ZOS remake this skill again.

Galeriano · May 2023

Lord_Invel wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

It would be just abused by zergs.

Okay ... but you could apply that type of argument to any ability. So does the same argument apply to sorc curse too? Oh zergs can abuse that skill and apply it on one or more people at a time, so we should make it's tooltip 1.8k now and not viable as a single target ability? Sorc curse is an instant cast with around a 12k to 13k base tooltip unbuffed ... why should inevitable detonation be 1.8k with a 1 second cast time?

No You couldn't since other options already exist in the game and You just want to add another option to them. It's like saying that because everyone earns X amount of money already than giving everyone another X amount of money is justified. This is not how economy works and same goes for the game balance. Sorc curse would be actually one of the better options to abuse that 12-13k tooltip detonation with. Two sorcs casting detonation+curse would be basically a death sentence for everyone who isn't fully build for tankiness. Adding a universal 12-13k delayed burst explosion to the game would mess up balance big time.

That ability recived single target dmg nerf because it was abused in the past to nuke people out of the blue. I remember good old days when I was running with magsorc destroying almost everyone with detonation+curse+endless fury+frag proc all dealing damage in the same second.

Lord_Invel · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

It would be just abused by zergs.

Okay ... but you could apply that type of argument to any ability. So does the same argument apply to sorc curse too? Oh zergs can abuse that skill and apply it on one or more people at a time, so we should make it's tooltip 1.8k now and not viable as a single target ability? Sorc curse is an instant cast with around a 12k to 13k base tooltip unbuffed ... why should inevitable detonation be 1.8k with a 1 second cast time?

No You couldn't since other options already exist in the game and You just want to add another option to them. It's like saying that because everyone earns X amount of money already than giving everyone another X amount of money is justified. This is not how economy works and same goes for the game balance. Sorc curse would be actually one of the better options to abuse that 12-13k tooltip detonation with. Two sorcs casting detonation+curse would be basically a death sentence for everyone who isn't fully build for tankiness. Adding a universal 12-13k delayed burst explosion to the game would mess up balance big time.

That ability recived single target dmg nerf because it was abused in the past to nuke people out of the blue. I remember good old days when I was running with magsorc destroying almost everyone with detonation+curse+endless fury+frag proc all dealing damage in the same second.

Nobody is dealing that amount of damage in the game as it was in thieves guild patch. Bringing back inevitable det wouldn't break the game like you're making it out to be. Everyone in pvp basically walks in with around 27k hp minimum ... a 13k tooltip on curse and a 14k tooltip on det wouldn't one shot people because

1) there is high armor mitigation
2) high heal time
3) High health pools across the board (minimum 27k)
4) Plenty of counter play regardless.

Curse if anything crits for 8k in pvp which isn't much damage at all. So I fail to see why making inevitable det viable again by reverting to it's old tooltip (13k - 14k tooltip) the same as me saying person A makes X amount of money and person B should also make X amount of money.

That is not a good analogy because what I'm saying is you robbed person A of his money and I want you to give that money back to person A. That is a better analogy to what I am saying if anything.

Lord_Invel · May 2023

mocap wrote: »

I see. Well, sorc have plenty of delayed skills for burst like Crystal Weapon, Mages' Wrath, Rune Cage. And Curse. It might be worth building around them and forget about Detonation until ZOS remake this skill again.

Yeah I agree I am building around the current meta for sure. But I want sorc to have at least some variety because the class is pretty much bland and very mid in my opinion. Everyone just builds overload and spams it against a bunch of people with 30k health that dodge roll infinitely XD. Mag sorc is very underwhelming at the moment and that has to do with class balance for sure. But putting class balance aside ... I just think it would be fun and refreshing to have at least another playstyle available to us. And that isn't restricted to mag sorc either btw ... many classes can use inevitable det with great success as well.

Galeriano · May 2023

Lord_Invel wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

It would be just abused by zergs.

Okay ... but you could apply that type of argument to any ability. So does the same argument apply to sorc curse too? Oh zergs can abuse that skill and apply it on one or more people at a time, so we should make it's tooltip 1.8k now and not viable as a single target ability? Sorc curse is an instant cast with around a 12k to 13k base tooltip unbuffed ... why should inevitable detonation be 1.8k with a 1 second cast time?

No You couldn't since other options already exist in the game and You just want to add another option to them. It's like saying that because everyone earns X amount of money already than giving everyone another X amount of money is justified. This is not how economy works and same goes for the game balance. Sorc curse would be actually one of the better options to abuse that 12-13k tooltip detonation with. Two sorcs casting detonation+curse would be basically a death sentence for everyone who isn't fully build for tankiness. Adding a universal 12-13k delayed burst explosion to the game would mess up balance big time.

That ability recived single target dmg nerf because it was abused in the past to nuke people out of the blue. I remember good old days when I was running with magsorc destroying almost everyone with detonation+curse+endless fury+frag proc all dealing damage in the same second.

Nobody is dealing that amount of damage in the game as it was in thieves guild patch. Bringing back inevitable det wouldn't break the game like you're making it out to be. Everyone in pvp basically walks in with around 27k hp minimum ... a 13k tooltip on curse and a 14k tooltip on det wouldn't one shot people because

1) there is high armor mitigation
2) high heal time
3) High health pools across the board (minimum 27k)
4) Plenty of counter play regardless.

Curse if anything crits for 8k in pvp which isn't much damage at all. So I fail to see why making inevitable det viable again by reverting to it's old tooltip (13k - 14k tooltip) the same as me saying person A makes X amount of money and person B should also make X amount of money.

That is not a good analogy because what I'm saying is you robbed person A of his money and I want you to give that money back to person A. That is a better analogy to what I am saying if anything.

It seems like the point I've made about this ability being abused in zergs completly flew above Your head. You still draw conclusions based on the usage of single player.

There would be plenty of ways to abuse that ability not just on sorc. It would add to burst potential to basically every setup which isn't that great when we consider a 36 meters range on that ability.

Lord_Invel · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

It would be just abused by zergs.

Okay ... but you could apply that type of argument to any ability. So does the same argument apply to sorc curse too? Oh zergs can abuse that skill and apply it on one or more people at a time, so we should make it's tooltip 1.8k now and not viable as a single target ability? Sorc curse is an instant cast with around a 12k to 13k base tooltip unbuffed ... why should inevitable detonation be 1.8k with a 1 second cast time?

No You couldn't since other options already exist in the game and You just want to add another option to them. It's like saying that because everyone earns X amount of money already than giving everyone another X amount of money is justified. This is not how economy works and same goes for the game balance. Sorc curse would be actually one of the better options to abuse that 12-13k tooltip detonation with. Two sorcs casting detonation+curse would be basically a death sentence for everyone who isn't fully build for tankiness. Adding a universal 12-13k delayed burst explosion to the game would mess up balance big time.

That ability recived single target dmg nerf because it was abused in the past to nuke people out of the blue. I remember good old days when I was running with magsorc destroying almost everyone with detonation+curse+endless fury+frag proc all dealing damage in the same second.

Nobody is dealing that amount of damage in the game as it was in thieves guild patch. Bringing back inevitable det wouldn't break the game like you're making it out to be. Everyone in pvp basically walks in with around 27k hp minimum ... a 13k tooltip on curse and a 14k tooltip on det wouldn't one shot people because

1) there is high armor mitigation
2) high heal time
3) High health pools across the board (minimum 27k)
4) Plenty of counter play regardless.

Curse if anything crits for 8k in pvp which isn't much damage at all. So I fail to see why making inevitable det viable again by reverting to it's old tooltip (13k - 14k tooltip) the same as me saying person A makes X amount of money and person B should also make X amount of money.

That is not a good analogy because what I'm saying is you robbed person A of his money and I want you to give that money back to person A. That is a better analogy to what I am saying if anything.

It seems like the point I've made about this ability being abused in zergs completly flew above Your head. You still draw conclusions based on the usage of single player.

There would be plenty of ways to abuse that ability not just on sorc. It would add to burst potential to basically every setup which isn't that great when we consider a 36 meters range on that ability.

No the point didn't fly above my head because I understand your concerns about how zergs can abuse it. Which is why I stated prior that inevitable det should be a single target ability where it's aoe damage is significantly reduced and vice versa for proxy det. If the range is that much of a problem then that could be addressed as well. But to have the skill as it is right now it is useless and not preferred. In fact if you want me to be even more nuanced about this ... inevitable det doesn't have to be unpurgeable in my opinion. I think it should be able to be cleansed that way there is some counter play involved as well. Overall if it behaves as a sorcs curse and is mainly a single target skill with a 13k tooltip where 25% of that tooltip is aoe damage it would be a really functional and balanced skill.

SimonThesis · May 2023

Innevitable det should be the counter to ballgroup as ballgroups use the other morph to kill zergs. Unfortunately, the skill doesn't do nearly enough damage, I am in multiple ballgroups, we don't even consider it a threat.

Innevitable detonation to be useful needs to be buffed closer to the damage of Plaguebreak and or apply a debuff like Major Defile or Major breach. As it stands no one uses innevitable det because it doesn't do any damage even if you get it on everyone. It could be a more effective counter.

@ZOS_Kevin Can you pass this thread along to whomever does balance changes it really is a significantly under performing skill compared to its other morph Proxy Detonation.