solo builds: Two bars or Oakensoul ring?

Dimski · April 2023

What works better nowadays, solo builds using two bars or one bar builds with Oakensoul?
I figure a two bar build still wants to use a Ring of the Pale Order, or is loading up on damage shields through skills or gear good enough to get ahead of Oakensoul?
Other considerations: What dps can I generate?
What happens in the occasional group I join without having the time to switch using the armory?

LunaFlora · April 2023

for me oakensoul works best because of the buffs it gives and because i am not fast enough with my damage for Pale Order to help enough.

also ring of Pale Order is useless in groups.
the bonus: Restore 20% of the damage you deal as Health. This value is decreased by 4% per ally you are grouped with. You cannot be healed by anyone but yourself.

though Pale Order is very useful when doing solo content incase you don't have a class skill such as Warden's Lotus Blossom

jaws343 · April 2023

I find that it depends heavily on the content. I PVE on sorc, so a bit skewed as well there with pets and/or shields. I rarely use Pale Order anymore on my two bar build, sticking now to either Death Dealer or Moras Whispers.

VMA, Oaken build works perfectly. Not a whole lot of incoming damage to worry about that you need to heal or shield through. Although, running matriarch is nice but not entirely necessary.

VVH, oaken is ok, but I find the two bar to be better. It can handle a lot more incoming damage, and VVH has that. Oaken burns things quicker, but is more likely to take an unrecoverable amount of damage in a short time. And crit surge without a shield cannot cover for it.

Normal base game dungeons, oaken build can solo those pretty much without issue.

Vet base game dungeons, oaken can handle some of those I'd think, though I haven't really tried yet. I do think the build will suffer on a few of them though.

Normal DLCs, oaken is fine for some, not fine for others, in my experience.

Vet DLCs, I wouldn't run oaken at all unless I was grouped.

Imperial City, Oaken builds are trash for roaming sewer bosses. Fine for everything else. But since I go down there seeking the roving bosses for telvar, I only bring my two bar build. Having the shields to cover for crit surge healing is crucial in my experience.

Quethrosar · April 2023

2 bar HA or LA ?

i have 2 bar HA i made after making an oaken HA.

It works good but needs alot more support skills so DPS isn't as high as just do DPS only with oakensoul, but it feels more fulfilling when i use it. HA itself makes you feel tougher just because it gives you resources back including health.

But 95% of the time i am in my training gear based 2 bar LA weave, for some most world bosses and normal dungeons. normal dungeons i can still be 40+% dps in it, vets i want to keep that 40+ so i switch to either divine based 2 la, or ha if I need to carry things more.

SirLeeMinion · April 2023

I tend to use Oaken on everything but do swap my other gear sets depending on the content. The challenge I have with vet dungeons solo is that you are eating CC meant for 4 people. When you are continually breaking free, roll dodging, etc... your DPS drops, and so do your heals with Pale Order.

DPS varies, ofc, depending on your other sets. For a normal base game dungeon or the vet solo arenas, I'll run a DPS + heals and major breach setup that parses in the high 30s to low 40s on the 6M and actually gets upper 20s on single bosses due to mechanics. In some vet encounters (e.g. vet CoS spider mini boss), you need to build for similar damage and expect to die here and there. For other vet DLC dungeons, running defensive sets is a better option. But then, I often look at the entire final boss encounter and find my DPS was about 15K, total, including all adds. Bleh. YouTube people with better skills and ping run those same encounters on DPS plus shield builds and seem to do twice that. Whether they do that every time or if their video includes the one time they didn't die, that I don't know.

This, by the way is for shock heavy attack builds; I go that route because of resources plus my ping. There are folks that go the 2H brawler route for soloing with good success, but I have yet to try it.

Zodiarkslayer · April 2023

Two bar is better. Always.
The more defensive abilities I have to run, because I die otherwise, the lower the damage I can put out, the longer the fight takes and the more likely it is that I won't get through mechanics.

If I have to use one heal and a shield, I can only use three abilities for dealing damage on an Oakensoul build.
On a two bar I have 5 more abilities (minus eventual bar buffers like Camo Hunter or eventual buffing abilities).

Oakensoul makes low to mid difficult fights more effective. Nothing more.
It struggles the more complicated and difficult the fight gets, up to a point where it gets impossible to complete content without switching back to two bars.

XSTRONG · April 2023

I use Oakensoul on my magplar solo and Pale order on my Stamsorc solo

ADarklore · May 2023

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Two bar is better. Always.
The more defensive abilities I have to run, because I die otherwise, the lower the damage I can put out, the longer the fight takes and the more likely it is that I won't get through mechanics.

If I have to use one heal and a shield, I can only use three abilities for dealing damage on an Oakensoul build.
On a two bar I have 5 more abilities (minus eventual bar buffers like Camo Hunter or eventual buffing abilities).

Oakensoul makes low to mid difficult fights more effective. Nothing more.
It struggles the more complicated and difficult the fight gets, up to a point where it gets impossible to complete content without switching back to two bars.

I read your above bolded comment and thought, NO... NO it's not.

In my opinion, your belief is built about the view that everyone is good with bar swapping and therefore people are choosing one bar builds because of laziness. Is someone who struggles with bar swapping due to disabilities, anxieties, or whatever... are they going to better with a one bar or two bar build?

My own personal experience... difficult battles gives me high anxiety. I struggle with bar swapping because 1) sometimes the bar doesn't actually swap due to lag so I spend tons of resources casting skills thinking that the bar swapped, when it didn't. 2) in the heat of battle and my anxiety is high, I easily lose focus and get frustrated and end up getting my controller buttons mixed up.

So would I do better on a one bar build in which I never need to worry about bar swapping and can maintain my composure because I've taken the bar-swapping stress out of the equation or would I be doing better with a two bar build in which I constantly mix up skills and become increasingly frustrated and stressed when bar swap doesn't switch and have added five additional skills I have to add to the mix? For me, I do MUCH better with a one bar build in which I have a full compliment of buffs that I don't have to back-bar apply constantly, and can focus on the five skills I have on ONE bar. In other words, I'm MUCH more efficient with one bar builds than I am with two. So no, FOR ME, two bars are definitely not better because it lowers my effectiveness. But that's ME... but I know I'm not alone. Oakensoul has made my enjoyment of the game grow immensely because of it taking away the anxiety and stress of having to bar swap.

fred4 · May 2023

Dimski wrote: »

What works better nowadays, solo builds using two bars or one bar builds with Oakensoul?
I figure a two bar build still wants to use a Ring of the Pale Order, or is loading up on damage shields through skills or gear good enough to get ahead of Oakensoul?
Other considerations: What dps can I generate?
What happens in the occasional group I join without having the time to switch using the armory?

Depends entirely on class and build, tbh. I run neither Oakensoul nor Pale Order on my two main PvE / solo characters. One is a magplar DD, the other a stamsorc tank / DD hybrid. The magplar does proper damage while healing from Sweeps. It is a DD in groups. The stamsorc is an extremely tough solo build. It is a tank in groups. Both are two bar builds. I probably have Pale Order in my inventory on those characters, but I rarely use it.

What both of these classes have in common is that they heal from doing damage, the templar with Sweeps, the sorc via Crit Surge. You can combine damage shields with that approach, but my rules of thumb are:

A damage shield, such as the sorc shield, that you have to actively cast and spend a lot of resources on, is worthless in solo play other than on heavy attack builds. All it does is delay the fight and run down your resources. Some people prefer having such a shield instead of an emergency heal. That's a valid point of view, if you are on a class / build that heals from damage. I prefer the emergency heal (Honor the Dead) on templar while my sorc doesn't need emergency healing (other than Dark Deal). In any case, remember that actively casting shields or burst heals is truly only for emergency, because they cost so much and waste a GCD where you are not doing damage.
Shielding sets are great to improve your tankiness, but only up to a point. Wearing Hexos Ward makes my templar marginally tankier. This swings the balance for some content, but it's not that great in the grand scheme of things. Also pay attention to the other buffs your shielding sets provide. Hexos Ward and Iceheart are your goto options, because they both provide crit buffs and don't nerf your damage too hard. This is IMO where damage shield sets have their place, e.g. in making you somewhat tankier while retaining decent damage.
Brawler (the 2H skill) is the ultimate shield. Due to uptime and size scaling, the Brawler shield is as strong as every other shield combined. Furthermore it's on a damage skill, which means you progress the fight while shielding, and that skill has a special weapon that ramps up your AOE damage (Master's 2H). Damage from a Brawler spam build ranges from a lacklustre 15K single target (27K on trial dummy) to "the sky is the limit" against trash mobs with that weapon. This is ideal. The only downside is sustain. To reap maximum benefit from Brawler for solo play, you need the sustain to spam it when necessary. Stamsorc is ideally placed to take advantage of this type of build, due to it's damage passives, due to healing via Crit Surge at the same time, and due to Dark Deal. That said, the ultimate Brawler solo build option combines Vicious Ophidian with a Wretched Vitality back bar and Master's 2H front bar. That option will comfortably solo stuff that few other builds can, such as (at least) the first arena of vet Blackrose Prison. The templar essentially just dies within the first 30 seconds in that place by comparison.

Just for more concrete information, I have various armor options on my characters, which I swap without using the armory station. On the templar these include:

Deadly Strike front bar, Maelstrom destro back bar, False God, Nerien'eth. For my purposes, e.g. with a somewhat selfish / solo-biased build, this performs the same as using Harpooner's Wading Quilt on the trial dummy. Nerien'eth works well on a Sweeps-based magplar. I haven't re-tested this lately, but it still feels like a good build.
Swap out Deadly Strike for Hexos Ward. The option to play it a bit safe and one I might use in vVH, because there are some fights, such as the Pyrelord, where default templar healing doesn't quite keep up. (By contrast my stamsorc laughs at all damage and can do vMA and vVH in about an hour despite essentially being a tank).
Gaze of Sithis, Aetherial Ascension, False God front bar, Maelstrom destro back bar. With this option you're at resistance cap. Since a Sweeps templar often can't block, Gaze of Sithis makes sense, however this is a double edged sword. I wouldn't want this against the vVH Minotaur for example, since I block his heavy attacks. In general, though, this feels tankier than the shielding build. It also has health regen. On the other hand, your damage is noticeably down from wearing Ascension and giving up a damage mythic or monster set.
Tormentor back bar, False God front bar, plus I'd have to look up the other stuff. This is the "fake tank" option. AOE taunt with Explosive Charge. Good enough to tank most normal dungeons (with the exception of March of Sacrifices, possibly others) while really being a DD.

Here are some examples of gear I use on the stamsorc:

Vicious Ophidian, Tormentor back bar (with Stampede), Master's 2H front bar, 1x Markyn, 1x Magma Incarnate. Mostly medium armor. This is the main build, which sits at resistance cap and about 42% crit. Works as a tank / solo / carry build in essentially all normal dungeons and vet non-DLC dungeons. The group can die, but it doesn't matter, because you can solo all that stuff. You tank and you do damage. More explicitly solo-focused variations of the build substitute Wretched Vitality for Tormentor. This is to solo very hard content. An alternative for vMA and vVH uses Vicious Ophidian, Order's Wrath, Master's 2H front bar and Maelstrom 2H back bar. You don't need Wretched Vitality in those places. Better to do more damage.
For vet DLC dungeons and (at least normal) trials, I switch to a more conventional tank via gear change (not armory station). Currently Master's 1H+Shield front bar, Tormentor 2H back bar, Yolnakhriin body, Spaulder of Ruin, 1x Magma Incarnate.

fred4 · May 2023

To specifically answer the thought that "is loading up on damage shields through skills or gear good enough to get ahead of Oakensoul":

If you build like I do, this isn't really a valid comparison. Oakensoul gives you some mitigation buffs, but not shields. Taking a detour: In PvP you always use your resistance skills, because of the other benefits they provide:

The templar rune provides a lot of sustain.
Hurricane deals good damage.
The DK armor skill activates extra healing and can provide a shield.
Nightblades get the major resistance buff passively with the right rotation.
Wardens, well, mjeh, you provide a group buff.
(Necros I don't know / play).

In other words, these skills are a must have in PvP. Solo builds need self-sufficiency that is somewhat similar to PvP. I therefore derive my solo builds from PvP builds.

Oakensoul only provides defensive buffs to make up for the lack of a skill bar. Whether you run Oakensoul or a two bar build, shields come in on top of that either way. For what it's worth, I don't rate Aegis and Protection highly. They're nice to have, but not much to write home about, due to the multiplicative nature of mitigation buffs.

That said, I have not played Oakensoul builds extensively. I guess I could be wrong, but my feeling is that Oakensoul is relatively well balanced these days. Two bar builds make up for what it gives you with the second bar. I prefer the flexibility of two bars, for example to find room to single-bar my favorite Tormentor set, and room for skills I just like playing with, regardless of content, such as Race Against Time for speed and snare removal.

Artim_X · May 2023

Alternative mythics are fine, no mythic are fine, DPS will be fine, heals or damage shields focus is fine, etc.

Realistically a good solo build will be fine in a random last minute group (random normal dungeons/vet vanilla dungeons/normal trials. However, if you're trying to do serious vet content (vet DLC dungeons/vet trials), then you should be making the time to ensure that you're being as efficient as you can possibly be in relation to how you want to play your role.

Zodiarkslayer · May 2023

ADarklore wrote: »

...
In my opinion, your belief is built about the view that everyone is good with bar swapping and therefore people are choosing one bar builds because of laziness. ...

Where in Dagon's name did that come from?
Why?
What did I do to invite that kind of bash?

Sheesh. Everyone of my characters has an Oakensoul ring in inventory, just in case when I like to lay back and don't barswap, myself.

Dimski wrote: »

... What works better nowadays, solo builds using two bars or one bar builds with Oakensoul? ...

That was the original question. Simple and straightforward. There is no mention of any personal limitation whatsoever. Why should any answer include a caveat regarding an individual player's limitations?

I mean, I am even saying this:

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

...
Oakensoul makes low to mid difficult fights more effective...

So, why the hatred? I dont get it. So uncalled for.