Ranking system question

AnduinTryggva · March 2023

I don't know how the ranking system works. The current #1 player has accumulated 2700 points. A week ago he/she has been at about 1600. How on Earth can you collect approximately 1000 points when being top rank?

My score usually stalls about 1300 points at best and then it is all downwards as one lost match obliterates the 3+ matches won prior to that.

NeKryXe · March 2023

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I don't know how the ranking system works. The current #1 player has accumulated 2700 points. A week ago he/she has been at about 1600. How on Earth can you collect approximately 1000 points when being top rank?

My score usually stalls about 1300 points at best and then it is all downwards as one lost match obliterates the 3+ matches won prior to that.

It's a good question indeed. Never thought about that, but in fact when I reach top 2% I usually get 0 points in most wins. Sometimes, with some luck, I get 10 points. So, I guess that the only way to reach such an high score is by never losing one match and keep trying to get some points even if you'll get 0 points most of the time.

AnduinTryggva · March 2023

NeKryXe wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I don't know how the ranking system works. The current #1 player has accumulated 2700 points. A week ago he/she has been at about 1600. How on Earth can you collect approximately 1000 points when being top rank?

My score usually stalls about 1300 points at best and then it is all downwards as one lost match obliterates the 3+ matches won prior to that.

It's a good question indeed. Never thought about that, but in fact when I reach top 2% I usually get 0 points in most wins. Sometimes, with some luck, I get 10 points. So, I guess that the only way to reach such an high score is by never losing one match and keep trying to get some points even if you'll get 0 points most of the time.

But winning 1000 points in about maybe a week would equate to winning minimum 100 matches in a row. Considering that most matches would give 0 points the real number would be many times that. And how come I never encounter this player anymore? I used to play against him/her during the first weeks after release but no more...

NeKryXe · March 2023

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

NeKryXe wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I don't know how the ranking system works. The current #1 player has accumulated 2700 points. A week ago he/she has been at about 1600. How on Earth can you collect approximately 1000 points when being top rank?

My score usually stalls about 1300 points at best and then it is all downwards as one lost match obliterates the 3+ matches won prior to that.

It's a good question indeed. Never thought about that, but in fact when I reach top 2% I usually get 0 points in most wins. Sometimes, with some luck, I get 10 points. So, I guess that the only way to reach such an high score is by never losing one match and keep trying to get some points even if you'll get 0 points most of the time.

But winning 1000 points in about maybe a week would equate to winning minimum 100 matches in a row. Considering that most matches would give 0 points the real number would be many times that. And how come I never encounter this player anymore? I used to play against him/her during the first weeks after release but no more...

If you are talking abut PC EU, I was matched a few times with the player on top and he/she plays really, really well even in disadvantaged situation. I only managed to win one time and it was a very hard game. So, I'm not so surprised about the place but the score is impressive. Anyway is quite possible that a player at that level never loses a match for a long time. I'm not even close to the level of that player and I was able this week to win almost 20 matches in a row. So, it's extremely hard, it requires a lot of time, but it's not impossible.

Personofsecrets · March 2023

I think that they do well against other players who are highly ranked. I only very rarely play against highly ranked players, but I can get around 80 points if I win such a game. Get a few of such games in a row by queing up at the right time and boom, your rank will soar.

It's unreasonable to think that someone never loses. My longest win streak was around 16 to 20 games I believe. I'm not saying that I'm that great of a player, but that we should recognize how chance starts to work against even good players at a certain point.

AnduinTryggva · March 2023

Yea, that player was pretty good when he/she still queued when I queued. Not unbeatable though. I guess he/she improved further.

What I cannot understand is how that person can maintain his/her insane amount of points. There IS a component based on luck and I don't see how this part can be controlled any time to win so many matches in a row.

Personofsecrets · March 2023

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Yea, that player was pretty good when he/she still queued when I queued. Not unbeatable though. I guess he/she improved further.

What I cannot understand is how that person can maintain his/her insane amount of points. There IS a component based on luck and I don't see how this part can be controlled any time to win so many matches in a row.

I gained a net of several hundred points last night and that is even despite losing a BS ranked game for -150 points. That is just one night worth of play and I even spent a lot of time in unranked mode. 1000 points in a week of time isn't unreasonable.

spartaxoxo · March 2023

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

What I cannot understand is how that person can maintain his/her insane amount of points. There IS a component based on luck and I don't see how this part can be controlled any time to win so many matches in a row.

Yes, there is a luck component. But, it is not as high as many assume. You can increase the odds of winning through skilled play.

NeKryXe · April 2023

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I think that they do well against other players who are highly ranked. I only very rarely play against highly ranked players, but I can get around 80 points if I win such a game. Get a few of such games in a row by queing up at the right time and boom, your rank will soar.

It's unreasonable to think that someone never loses. My longest win streak was around 16 to 20 games I believe. I'm not saying that I'm that great of a player, but that we should recognize how chance starts to work against even good players at a certain point.

Well... if you are playing on PC EU you can confirm right now that it's not so "unreasonable to think that someone never lose". I've been a while on top 6 yesterday and today, and since there are only 56 players in the rankings now, while I was on that position, I never got more than 1 point from every win, and I had a 10-game winning streak to confirm that. Since the leading player is 200 points ahead of the other top 10 score, it means he has successfully won at least 200 matches in the last 2 days. Unless Zos isn't distributing the points equally to all players. Which would be weird.

Personofsecrets · April 2023

NeKryXe wrote: »

[quote="Personofsecrets;c-7838383"Unless Zos isn't distributing the points equally to all players.

I am close to certain that this issue is the case. We become victims of our own success.

Season of March ends with me as the number 1 player. I only play other high ranked players a very small fraction of the time. Many other high ranked players I don't even play at all. But my observation is the following. So I don't win because I'm the best playing other good players and winning, but rather because I start getting decent points for my wins and get on around a 15 to 20 game winstreak at the very end.

When I climbed past 2000 points the first time, climbing was extremly slow. At some point during the climb, a player who lacks skills in certain areas, yes that's my opinion, found a consistent patron selection to do well against me. I lost very many games against them. Maybe I even lose more than 700 points one day, I forget the exact numbers. But climbing in rank became easier after this mass of losses.

I was more consistently getting 40 through 60 points for wins after those losses. 40 to 60 points is huge. Sometimes I was even getting more which is crazy to me. I kept this point gain, with very few exception of 10 point or zero gains, for the remainder week of the season.

In my opinion, some players have a good sense of how the point distribution works and they are able to use that fealing to their advantage. I remember a couple or few seasons back, someone had well over 2000 points withing the first maybe 2 to 5 days. It was rediculous to think that they were just gaining points equal to other skilled players and had already won so many games. I also doubt that they were cheating. It's more obvious that they were just gaining alot of points for their wins on top of being a good player.

AnduinTryggva · April 2023

If this is the case I think ZOS urgently needs to make point distribution 100% transparent to all players. It is not the objective of any competitive games - be it card games or football matches - where some in-depth knowledge of some intransparent point distribution leads to winning the ranking or league or whatever.

NeKryXe · April 2023

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NeKryXe wrote: »

[quote="Personofsecrets;c-7838383"Unless Zos isn't distributing the points equally to all players.

I am close to certain that this issue is the case. We become victims of our own success.

Season of March ends with me as the number 1 player. I only play other high ranked players a very small fraction of the time. Many other high ranked players I don't even play at all. But my observation is the following. So I don't win because I'm the best playing other good players and winning, but rather because I start getting decent points for my wins and get on around a 15 to 20 game winstreak at the very end.

When I climbed past 2000 points the first time, climbing was extremly slow. At some point during the climb, a player who lacks skills in certain areas, yes that's my opinion, found a consistent patron selection to do well against me. I lost very many games against them. Maybe I even lose more than 700 points one day, I forget the exact numbers. But climbing in rank became easier after this mass of losses.

I was more consistently getting 40 through 60 points for wins after those losses. 40 to 60 points is huge. Sometimes I was even getting more which is crazy to me. I kept this point gain, with very few exception of 10 point or zero gains, for the remainder week of the season.

In my opinion, some players have a good sense of how the point distribution works and they are able to use that fealing to their advantage. I remember a couple or few seasons back, someone had well over 2000 points withing the first maybe 2 to 5 days. It was rediculous to think that they were just gaining points equal to other skilled players and had already won so many games. I also doubt that they were cheating. It's more obvious that they were just gaining alot of points for their wins on top of being a good player.

I don't believe at all that anyone is cheating. I never saw any evidence of that. I believe that points might be unfairly destributed for some weird reason, or that some players are really really good, and playing a lot. But you can't compare the final of the season to the first days of the season. At this moment it's absolutely impossible for someone to get more than 1 point on a victory when in top 10. At least, on my account it has always been impossible at this phase.

Personofsecrets · April 2023

NeKryXe wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NeKryXe wrote: »

[quote="Personofsecrets;c-7838383"Unless Zos isn't distributing the points equally to all players.

I am close to certain that this issue is the case. We become victims of our own success.

Season of March ends with me as the number 1 player. I only play other high ranked players a very small fraction of the time. Many other high ranked players I don't even play at all. But my observation is the following. So I don't win because I'm the best playing other good players and winning, but rather because I start getting decent points for my wins and get on around a 15 to 20 game winstreak at the very end.

When I climbed past 2000 points the first time, climbing was extremly slow. At some point during the climb, a player who lacks skills in certain areas, yes that's my opinion, found a consistent patron selection to do well against me. I lost very many games against them. Maybe I even lose more than 700 points one day, I forget the exact numbers. But climbing in rank became easier after this mass of losses.

I was more consistently getting 40 through 60 points for wins after those losses. 40 to 60 points is huge. Sometimes I was even getting more which is crazy to me. I kept this point gain, with very few exception of 10 point or zero gains, for the remainder week of the season.

In my opinion, some players have a good sense of how the point distribution works and they are able to use that fealing to their advantage. I remember a couple or few seasons back, someone had well over 2000 points withing the first maybe 2 to 5 days. It was rediculous to think that they were just gaining points equal to other skilled players and had already won so many games. I also doubt that they were cheating. It's more obvious that they were just gaining alot of points for their wins on top of being a good player.

At least, on my account it has always been impossible at this phase.

Yes, that's the entire point. Take the example that I mentioned of the player in the 2000 point score within the 1st week of play. If we assume that they are only gaining one point per win and that games take 10 minutes which is reasonable considering que time, then it would have taken that player 13 days to achieve such a score.

So it is a mathematical impossibility for the player I mentioned to have only been gaining one point per win. Also, 13 days is the time table if they never sleep or lose a game. If they ever sleep or lose, then the time it would take them to reach such a score at 1 point per win would be extended. They were present at a high point value so quickly exactly because they gain a different number of points for their wins than you gain for your wins.

I'm aware that the rate of points being given out toward the end of the season may differ compared to rate of points given toward the start of the season. I still think that my observation regarding my change in point gain occurring due to losing still may have some validity. I did try purposely losing to affect my point gain before and the effect seemed to exist but be very temporary. Maybe I just needed to lose more.

Anyhow, that is what I'm encouraging. I'm encouraging that you lose many games. It would be interesting to see what happens to your point gain afterward. Or maybe try purchasing another account and playing on that account to see what your point gain is.

NeKryXe · April 2023

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NeKryXe wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NeKryXe wrote: »

[quote="Personofsecrets;c-7838383"Unless Zos isn't distributing the points equally to all players.

I am close to certain that this issue is the case. We become victims of our own success.

Season of March ends with me as the number 1 player. I only play other high ranked players a very small fraction of the time. Many other high ranked players I don't even play at all. But my observation is the following. So I don't win because I'm the best playing other good players and winning, but rather because I start getting decent points for my wins and get on around a 15 to 20 game winstreak at the very end.

When I climbed past 2000 points the first time, climbing was extremly slow. At some point during the climb, a player who lacks skills in certain areas, yes that's my opinion, found a consistent patron selection to do well against me. I lost very many games against them. Maybe I even lose more than 700 points one day, I forget the exact numbers. But climbing in rank became easier after this mass of losses.

I was more consistently getting 40 through 60 points for wins after those losses. 40 to 60 points is huge. Sometimes I was even getting more which is crazy to me. I kept this point gain, with very few exception of 10 point or zero gains, for the remainder week of the season.

In my opinion, some players have a good sense of how the point distribution works and they are able to use that fealing to their advantage. I remember a couple or few seasons back, someone had well over 2000 points withing the first maybe 2 to 5 days. It was rediculous to think that they were just gaining points equal to other skilled players and had already won so many games. I also doubt that they were cheating. It's more obvious that they were just gaining alot of points for their wins on top of being a good player.

At least, on my account it has always been impossible at this phase.

Yes, that's the entire point. Take the example that I mentioned of the player in the 2000 point score within the 1st week of play. If we assume that they are only gaining one point per win and that games take 10 minutes which is reasonable considering que time, then it would have taken that player 13 days to achieve such a score.

So it is a mathematical impossibility for the player I mentioned to have only been gaining one point per win. Also, 13 days is the time table if they never sleep or lose a game. If they ever sleep or lose, then the time it would take them to reach such a score at 1 point per win would be extended. They were present at a high point value so quickly exactly because they gain a different number of points for their wins than you gain for your wins.

I'm aware that the rate of points being given out toward the end of the season may differ compared to rate of points given toward the start of the season. I still think that my observation regarding my change in point gain occurring due to losing still may have some validity. I did try purposely losing to affect my point gain before and the effect seemed to exist but be very temporary. Maybe I just needed to lose more.

Anyhow, that is what I'm encouraging. I'm encouraging that you lose many games. It would be interesting to see what happens to your point gain afterward. Or maybe try purchasing another account and playing on that account to see what your point gain is.

2000 points on the first week I never saw. But if it is possible for some players how can you explain that it isn't to others. Like I said, I'm pretty sure that many players can't get more than 1 point once they reach top 10. Usually I stop playing if I reach that position. This week I kept playing just to try to understand how it works, and I confirmed that I won 1 point in every win and once I lose I got -150 points. Then, yes, I started to get more than 1 point again. But I had to lose 150 points in order to get more than 1 point again.

NeKryXe · April 2023

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

If this is the case I think ZOS urgently needs to make point distribution 100% transparent to all players. It is not the objective of any competitive games - be it card games or football matches - where some in-depth knowledge of some intransparent point distribution leads to winning the ranking or league or whatever.

Ok. I quit trying to understand the ranking system. I'm again receiving 0 points on every match I win even when playing with higher level opponents and I'm not even close to top 10% right now.

It's impossible to understand this ranking system. It seems absolutely bugged and the silence of Zos about this doesn't help.

You are absolutely right! ---> "ZOS urgently needs to make point distribution 100% transparent to all players"

NoSoup · April 2023

NeKryXe wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

If this is the case I think ZOS urgently needs to make point distribution 100% transparent to all players. It is not the objective of any competitive games - be it card games or football matches - where some in-depth knowledge of some intransparent point distribution leads to winning the ranking or league or whatever.

Ok. I quit trying to understand the ranking system. I'm again receiving 0 points on every match I win even when playing with higher level opponents and I'm not even close to top 10% right now.

It's impossible to understand this ranking system. It seems absolutely bugged and the silence of Zos about this doesn't help.

You are absolutely right! ---> "ZOS urgently needs to make point distribution 100% transparent to all players"

Since your at a point where you're consistently getting low points, I'd be interested in knowing your Patron variety? Do you frequently use the same combination of patrons against what patrons other players select? I'm starting to wonder if there is a grading system built into the Patron selection that some players have managed to figure out.

NoSoup · April 2023

I also "felt" (saying felt cause it could have been a mere coincidence) that I ranked up faster and got more points prior to reaching master rank and completing my decks.

NeKryXe · April 2023

NoSoup wrote: »

NeKryXe wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

If this is the case I think ZOS urgently needs to make point distribution 100% transparent to all players. It is not the objective of any competitive games - be it card games or football matches - where some in-depth knowledge of some intransparent point distribution leads to winning the ranking or league or whatever.

Ok. I quit trying to understand the ranking system. I'm again receiving 0 points on every match I win even when playing with higher level opponents and I'm not even close to top 10% right now.

It's impossible to understand this ranking system. It seems absolutely bugged and the silence of Zos about this doesn't help.

You are absolutely right! ---> "ZOS urgently needs to make point distribution 100% transparent to all players"

Since your at a point where you're consistently getting low points, I'd be interested in knowing your Patron variety? Do you frequently use the same combination of patrons against what patrons other players select? I'm starting to wonder if there is a grading system built into the Patron selection that some players have managed to figure out.

That's interesting! Never thought about that. But yes, I always pick the same two patrons. Anyway, something weird just happened: I was constantly getting 0 points on victories and right now I won a match to an opponent that I usually lose, and I got 130 points. It was surprising. So, now I guess that it gives 0 points when we win a match with a player that we usually win, and the only way to get more points is to get matched with a player that usually beats us.

They really need to explain us how this crazy ranking system works. Or, at least, alert us when a match can result on 0 points for win so we can refuse to play it.

Personofsecrets · April 2023

NeKryXe wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

NeKryXe wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

If this is the case I think ZOS urgently needs to make point distribution 100% transparent to all players. It is not the objective of any competitive games - be it card games or football matches - where some in-depth knowledge of some intransparent point distribution leads to winning the ranking or league or whatever.

Ok. I quit trying to understand the ranking system. I'm again receiving 0 points on every match I win even when playing with higher level opponents and I'm not even close to top 10% right now.

It's impossible to understand this ranking system. It seems absolutely bugged and the silence of Zos about this doesn't help.

You are absolutely right! ---> "ZOS urgently needs to make point distribution 100% transparent to all players"

Since your at a point where you're consistently getting low points, I'd be interested in knowing your Patron variety? Do you frequently use the same combination of patrons against what patrons other players select? I'm starting to wonder if there is a grading system built into the Patron selection that some players have managed to figure out.

That's interesting! Never thought about that. But yes, I always pick the same two patrons. Anyway, something weird just happened: I was constantly getting 0 points on victories and right now I won a match to an opponent that I usually lose, and I got 130 points. It was surprising. So, now I guess that it gives 0 points when we win a match with a player that we usually win, and the only way to get more points is to get matched with a player that usually beats us.

They really need to explain us how this crazy ranking system works. Or, at least, alert us when a match can result on 0 points for win so we can refuse to play it.

I had to lose against the same player 4 times in a row before I stopped losing 150 points per loss against them.