Add 0.5 modifier for physical and spell resistance to battle spirit

grzes848909 · March 2023

I was thinking on how everybody is super tanky nowdays in pvp and I noticed that everybody is using medium armor only, no matter what, even if you are magicka user or tank you still pick up medium armor. Therefore one could test if people would actually use both heavy and light armor if their armor ratings were affected in pvp. It would create argument where 'if armor is weak then you might as well go full dmg and pick up light armor' but also 'if the armor is weaker then you want to heavy armor to get as much resistances as possible' and both of those arguments are correct. How does that affect tankiness in pvp ? people could still be as tanky as right now but they would have to use heavy armor as its intended use, meaning that you would need to trade survivability for dmg. But if people will pick heavy armor which has downsides against magicka users who use light armor then it would create a counter. And since light armor would provide less protection as well penalties against physical damage then it would make an opening for medium armor users to counter them instead. And medium armor would struggle to pierce through heavy armor due having less penetration and heavy armor having upsides against physical damage. The aimed result would be people actually having a rock, paper, scissors counter scenarios against each other which is how game was intended. The reason why its not the case currently is because you can easily get near resistance cap by simply having medium armor and both minor and major resolve.
Another thing is that since penetration doesn't require to be as high people could spec more to spell and weapon dmg which, yes, would make people deal more damage but also heal more so people are more likely to die but also more likely to recover if someone were to dodge, block or avoid at least some part of the damage.
The end result would be that both average pvper as well 1vXs would both die but also kill more, make people use all 3 types of armor instead just medium and maybe even make less people discouraged from avoiding pvp if they could feel that they do infact have a fighting chance.

Nser · March 2023

id just start by removing minor resolve from vigor, free 3k resist should never be on a meta skill. Removing it from vigor brings back choices (magma incarnate on the table again), it being near mandatory hurts diversity.

Next would be cutting the healing you recieve from others by a fair amount and make HoTs such as echoing vigor not stackable. This can be implemented into battlespirit to not harm pve.

If everybody is in medium, then perhaps only medium needs to be adjusted. No need for an entire overhaul.

grzes848909 · March 2023

Nser wrote: »

id just start by removing minor resolve from vigor, free 3k resist should never be on a meta skill. Removing it from vigor brings back choices (magma incarnate on the table again), it being near mandatory hurts diversity.

Next would be cutting the healing you recieve from others by a fair amount and make HoTs such as echoing vigor not stackable. This can be implemented into battlespirit to not harm pve.

If everybody is in medium, then perhaps only medium needs to be adjusted. No need for an entire overhaul.

Problem isn't that any of the armor types are better or worse than each other, but rather that there is no reason to use anything but medium. No need for light armor cause medium gives you good dmg bonuses and there is no reason to want extra penetration because nobody runs heavy armor either as you can get as tanky using medium armor and combining other aforementioned buffs. If you nerf medium armor people will either move to light or heavy abandoning medium all together. There needs to real concious choice when chosing armor type.
As of the healing stacking, thats a diffrent discussion.

Jessythesavage · March 2023

Nightblades are out here doing 15k bows on 35k resist and 3k crit resist build no thanks

Nser · March 2023

So that would mean medium is indeed better than light or heavy.
A Nerf or rather a balance to medium, which would result as u say in people going for more heavy or light, which have the increased damage taken by phys/magic, wouldnt that be what you are ultimately asking for here? with the rock/paper/scissors thing.

Medium can still have its place with it giving speed, dodgeroll reduction, block cost reduction etc, but I think the wpn/spell dmg passive is the real problem, with how it synergizes with the meta. Stack more dmg get more healing get more survivable.

Nser · March 2023

It could be as simple as removing the minor resolve from vigor and making Agility give 1% per armor piece slotted.
6% less wpn/spell dmg so less dmg less healing, but its still something while having no penalties.
If that makes light and heavy more attractive thats a good thing, and since medium still has the survivability aspects of dodge/block/speed it wont be outright replaced

OBJnoob · March 2023

I agree with a lot being said here. Removing minor resolve from vigor would probably be good. Making medium armor less attractive would be good.

But I disagree with the overall suggestion that armor is the main source of tankiness for players. Who knows, maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but none of my toons have more than like 25-28k resistances. They present as very tanky... But that's really due to blocking, lots of self heals, staying mobile, and just for the most part being a decent player. My Warden wears Rallying Cry which helps against crits but is not the same as armor. My NB has major evasion, which helps against AoEs but isn't the same as armor.

I just don't think armor is a very big problem, if it's even a problem at all. Maras Balm, the tankiest set of them all, doesn't provide armor. And I suppose if Maras ever gets nerfed like most people want then Pariah will become popular again-- but that's only 1 set amidst a sea of percentage modifiers and self healing.

Nser · March 2023

At the very least make the minor resolve last as long as the HoT, being 5s. Being more tanky while Resolving Vigor is ticking makes more sense, reward for micromanagement, since i doubt they will ever remove it. From Major Resolve to minor, to as long as the HoT persists, perfect?

Necrotech_Master · March 2023

i think a lot of people forget that armor is not the only form of dmg mitigation either

blocking (at least 50% dmg reduction)
major protection (10% reduction just for having something like flare slotted)
minor protection (5% reduction, not too difficult to source either)
vampire undeath as you get lower hp

while there is diminished returns for stacking these mitigations, it still further reduces the dmg after armor

so even having around 25k armor (33k armor is 50% reduction), your still relatively tanky with only like 35-40% dmg reduction from armor

i dont think halving armor would honestly do anything, someone at 20k going to 10k armor is just going to be deleted faster, and this would just incentivize more people to build for 40k armor

maras balm for example is already heavy armor, but most people use it on weapons/jewelry, this would just make people start equipping it on body armor

StaticWave · March 2023

I run around in 26k armor back bar fully buffed (with Major Minor Resolve). Doesn't seem like a lot of armor in today's meta, but I have 10% Major Protection, 5% Minor Protection, Vampire Undeath's 33%, Pain's Refuge 2% per negative effect, and SnB's 70% blocking mitigation.

If you can get your hands on those % damage mitigation modifiers, you don't need to build as much resistances and can load everything into damage and sustain. Fortunately, you can get your hands on most of those mitigation sources without sacrificing too much of your build.

Luede · March 2023

Physical and spell resistance are not the problem, Vampire Undeath's is.

gariondavey · March 2023

Luede wrote: »

Physical and spell resistance are not the problem, Vampire Undeath's is.

This. And cross heal stacking.
You can build enough pen for most targets pretty easily

Afterip · March 2023

1. Reduced Vampire Undeath's to 20%
2. Resolving Vigor should gain Minor resolve for 5sec
3. Agility should gain 1% increse sp/wp per medium piece
4. Mara set should have 30 sec cd
5. HoTs shouldn't stack with each other

Tommy_The_Gun · March 2023

I just wanted to point out that "the tank meta" started more or less when they added major protection to Revealing Flare.

Players being tanky has very little to do with armour values, but rather with a % damage reduction named buffs & unique buffs.

Also, it is worth pointing out that "tank meta" is a direct consequence of "high burst meta". Players are just adapting to new conditions. And since you can not have fun if you are dead - then we see more & more players becoming more tanky. Lag is an important factor too. If the game is not responsive and for example I try to drink a potion and spam the button like crazy, then by the 10th press of the button it will work, but till then I need some buffer not to die because game does not work lol.

Luth7 · March 2023

As others have pointed out, resist mitigation is fine and you actually have to invest a lot to get over the cap at all. When it comes to to stacking resists, we rather have the green mini-balrog problem. DK's just simply can ignore all your resist with one ultimate and as they are meta, you can find them everywhere.
So we might as well have already often a situation of

if armor is weak then you might as well go full dmg and pick up light armor

even if not generally the case.

StaticWave · March 2023

Luth7 wrote: »

As others have pointed out, resist mitigation is fine and you actually have to invest a lot to get over the cap at all. When it comes to to stacking resists, we rather have the green mini-balrog problem. DK's just simply can ignore all your resist with one ultimate and as they are meta, you can find them everywhere.
So we might as well have already often a situation of

if armor is weak then you might as well go full dmg and pick up light armor

even if not generally the case.

DK having corrosive was why I decided to drop my resistances from 31k to 22k before they added Minor Resolve to Vigor.

There is literally no point in trying to build for that much resistances when a DK can push 1 button and ignore it all. Better to just build full damage and exploit the sources of % mitigation available in the game for extra tankiness.