Warden Betties get worse when ranking up?

Zodiarkslayer · March 2023

Both morphs of the Warden's Betty have a fixed amount ressources that they restore, right? I haven't found anything to the contrary.
And when ranking up the abilities extend their duration from 22 to 25 seconds. So the ressource gain per second actually goes down.

Am I missing something here? Or is there a hidden scaling of the ressources?

I find this really strange... 🤷‍♂️

fred4 · March 2023

Point taken (though not checked for accuracy). I guess people care more about the automatic cleanse (in PvP), the Major Brutality / Sorcery, and things like Necropotence uptime. I wouldn't have spotted that, cause the resource return is merely nice to have.

Zodiarkslayer · March 2023

The effective uptime of Major Brutality/Sorcery is the same: 100%. You see, the casting of Betty back to back will only give you one additional free global cool down per 550 GCDs (22s*25s), which is a 9 minutes and 10 seconds fight. That is all that the longer duration does, effectively. And you get that by giving up on 12% less resources per second (22s/25s = 0,88).

Also, the cleanse is happening more often on rank one, two and three, if the ability is cast back to back. 25 is divisible by 5. 22, 23 and 24 are not. So by activating back to back one would get a cleanse after two, three and four seconds respectively, instead of every five seconds on rank 4.

The cost for casting also stays the same: Zero in every case

Think about it. IF pretty much everything else effectively stays the same, than the ability gets worse by ranking up. The longer I think about it, the crazier it gets.
Anyone tell me I am wrong, please...
Anyone tell me I am not crazy, please...

fred4 · March 2023

Well, you're probably not wrong, but you're thinking about your niche of the game. That seems to be trials where fights might last 9 minutes and rotations are highly choreographed.

I'm a PvPer. I'd probably still take the longer duration, if I had a choice, because I don't have fixed rotations. Longer buffs are ever so slightly nicer to have.

PrinceShroob · March 2023

Blue Betty returns 192 magicka per second while the skill is active, and then returns one additional tick of resource restoration after the skill expires, adding up to the tooltip value of 4992; similarly, Bull Netch returns 192 stamina per second plus one additional tick of 192 stamina when the skill expires.

The tooltip value for the amount of resources returned increases as the skill ranks up, because the amount restored stays constant, the skill just lasts longer.

So it is beneficial to rank up the skill since it will return more resources for one global cooldown if the skill has a longer duration.

Zodiarkslayer · March 2023

PrinceShroob wrote: »

Blue Betty returns 192 magicka per second while the skill is active, and then returns one additional tick of resource restoration after the skill expires, adding up to the tooltip value of 4992; similarly, Bull Netch returns 192 stamina per second plus one additional tick of 192 stamina when the skill expires.

The tooltip value for the amount of resources returned increases as the skill ranks up, because the amount restored stays constant, the skill just lasts longer.

So it is beneficial to rank up the skill since it will return more resources for one global cooldown if the skill has a longer duration.

Thank You! So I am not crazy ...

But wait. If I understand this correctly, the the tick is always 192 mag or stam per second plus one more time at the time of expiration?
But that means the total resources per total duration is STILL decreasing. Is it not?
See here the resource returned rate for Blue Betty at ranks number:

4416/22s=200,72
4608/23s=200,347
4800/24s=200
4992/25s=199,68

I can verify ranks one, two and four, as I have seen them as my tooltips in game now after I switched to Blue Betty now and have seen 4992 for Bull Netch before changing morphs.
In that case I am still correct. It is just not as bad as I initially feared.

PrinceShroob · March 2023

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

But wait. If I understand this correctly, the the tick is always 192 mag or stam per second plus one more time at the time of expiration?
But that means the total resources per total duration is STILL decreasing. Is it not?
See here the resource returned rate for Blue Betty at ranks number:
4416/22s=200,72

4608/23s=200,347

4800/24s=200

4992/25s=199,68

I can verify ranks one, two and four, as I have seen them as my tooltips in game now after I switched to Blue Betty now and have seen 4992 for Bull Netch before changing morphs.
In that case I am still correct. It is just not as bad as I initially feared.

No, the tick is always 192 at all ranks. Only the duration increases; you're forgetting to add 1 to the duration for the additional tick after the skill expires, which is already included in the displayed tooltip value (this is not the only skill which functions after the timer expires; for example, Flames of Oblivion will not shoot the last fireball if the skill does not last its full 15 seconds).

Rank 1 192 x 23 = 4416; rank 2 is 192 x 24 = 4608; rank 3 is 192 x 25 = 4800; and rank 4 is 192 x 26 = 4992.

The skill is slightly more efficient at higher ranks, since it's longer between empty (no damage) global cooldowns but the resources restored per second is the same.

Zodiarkslayer · March 2023

fred4 wrote: »

... That seems to be trials where fights might last 9 minutes and rotations are highly choreographed...

Actually, you are expected to use potions on cooldown for your buffs in trials. Betties have little to no place in a dps rotation, as far as I know.

PrinceShroob wrote: »

No, the tick is always 192 at all ranks. Only the duration increases; you're forgetting to add 1 to the duration for the additional tick after the skill expires, which is already included in the displayed tooltip value (this is not the only skill which functions after the timer expires; for example, Flames of Oblivion will not shoot the last fireball if the skill does not last its full 15 seconds).

Rank 1 192 x 23 = 4416; rank 2 is 192 x 24 = 4608; rank 3 is 192 x 25 = 4800; and rank 4 is 192 x 26 = 4992.

Did you notice, that the numbers I used are the numbers you calculated? Neither did I forget about the "plus one" additional ressources tick at the end.
All I am doing is calculating all ressources over all the duration. That forms the effective ressources per second. And that coefficient is decreasing with the ability ranking up. That is what I wanted to show with my table above.

And if you think about it, it makes sense what I say. The longer the ability is, the longer you have to wait for the bonus ressources at the end. Everything else stays the same.

And concerning the additional global cooldowns you get for "dealing more damage". That is negligible. For example the difference between rank one and four is 3 gcd in 550 seconds. And the first "free" gcd for casting damage is at 133s = (6×22s)+1s or 155s = (7×22s)+1s , depending on how you want to approach
It. Regardless, that is over two thirds of a typical trial dummy parse. For which you would be expected to use potions anyways.

I can explain it.
I can calculate it.
But I do not understand why!

PrinceShroob · March 2023

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Betties have little to no place in a dps rotation, as far as I know.

Prior to Update 37, you would need a source of Major Brutality if a Dragonknight was in your group but could not run Igneous Weapons, as you would receive Minor Brutality from the Dragonknight but would be using potions which granted Major Sorcery.

Additionally, you can use Blue Betty to assist with sustain, as magicka Warden sustain is regarded as difficult.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Did you notice, that the numbers I used are the numbers you calculated? Neither did I forget about the "plus one" additional ressources tick at the end.
All I am doing is calculating all ressources over all the duration. That forms the effective ressources per second. And that coefficient is decreasing with the ability ranking up. That is what I wanted to show with my table above.

And if you think about it, it makes sense what I say. The longer the ability is, the longer you have to wait for the bonus ressources at the end. Everything else stays the same.

And concerning the additional global cooldowns you get for "dealing more damage". That is negligible. For example the difference between rank one and four is 3 gcd in 550 seconds. And the first "free" gcd for casting damage is at 133s = (6×22s)+1s or 155s = (7×22s)+1s , depending on how you want to approach
It. Regardless, that is over two thirds of a typical trial dummy parse. For which you would be expected to use potions anyways.

I verified using Combat Metrics that the resource return was 192, occurring 26 times with Blue Betty at rank 4. You are dividing the resource return by the stated duration (for example, at rank 4, 25 seconds) but you need to add 1 to the duration for the final tick. The stated resource number is then evenly divisible by that number and will give you 192. The final tick at the end of the skill is still 192.

You are more than welcome to check my work using Combat Metrics.

Amottica · March 2023

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Both morphs of the Warden's Betty have a fixed amount ressources that they restore, right? I haven't found anything to the contrary.
And when ranking up the abilities extend their duration from 22 to 25 seconds. So the ressource gain per second actually goes down.

Am I missing something here? Or is there a hidden scaling of the ressources?

I find this really strange... 🤷‍♂️

Has this been tested or assumed from reading?