Dragon Knight - Helping Hands (Passive) - New Change with Scribes of Fate...

N00BxV1 · March 2023

With the new change to Helping Hands, you can no longer use Ash Cloud / Cinder Storm / Eruption to restore stamina because the cost of the skill is less than the restored value (1120) from the passive. This passive should work for all of the Earthen Heart skills but now it does not...

New Helping Hands...

Cinder Storm cost (with vamp stage 1 - each vamp stage would increase cost but not by much)...

I was wondering why I wasn't getting any stamina back from using Cinder Storm, until someone in a dungeon told me it was to "fix" perma-blockers in PvP. And then I saw the passive...

I do not like this change at all to say the least. Just another PvE nerf because of PvP problems...

OBJnoob · March 2023

It was never meant to work that way and was therefore changed. PvPers are more likely to point out bugs/exploits/imbalances because players don't like them whereas NPCs don't complain. Nothing personal, brethren.

Vevvev · March 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

It was never meant to work that way and was therefore changed. PvPers are more likely to point out bugs/exploits/imbalances because players don't like them whereas NPCs don't complain. Nothing personal, brethren.

^ This

The PvPers are not the problem because the passive was intended to be a conversion of Magicka to Stamina, but with the way Ash Cloud worked it was free Stamina.

The change to the passive fixed the unintended unlimited stamina exploit it was giving by spamming Ash Cloud over and over again.

Hotdog_23 · March 2023

Console, so no way to test for myself. My guess is that you do not get stamina for the first casting of ASH cloud either or any of its morphs. Which I think you really should. It could be limited to only once every 10 seconds like the eruptive damage form the Eruption morph.

Stay safe

The_Titan_Tim · March 2023

When they adjusted Ash Cloud to cost per second, the synergy between it and Helping Hands was an unintended oversight.

Dragonknight is a class meant to struggle with sustain management, due to the fact that the class is great at literally everything.

robpr · March 2023

Just change it to 100 stam recovery bonus and put it to rest finally...

N00BxV1 · March 2023

I never said PvP players were the problem. I said this was another PvE nerf because of PvP problems.

Each mode receives nerfs because of the other mode. It's not anyone's fault, we just play the game that they make.

Nobody in PvE gave a damn that it was easy to proc Helping Hands with Ash Cloud ever since ZOS changed how the skill worked. Most people probably didn't know or didn't care.

This was a only a problem for PvP, and it needed to be changed for the sake of balance.

But Ash Cloud shouldn't have been completely disallowed from proc'ing Helping Hands. They could've done something else, like adding a cool-down for that skill... or anything would've been better than nothing.

-- Ash Cloud (and its morphs) was changed a while back and they made it literally spam-able -- low cost per second instead of the high flat cost that it used to have. And it's very easy to make the skill completely free to use with just a little bit of cost reduction...

-- Eruption was also changed to only do the explosion damage once every 10 seconds because they don't want the skill to be spammed...

-- Helping Hands has now been changed and it does not work at all with Ash Cloud because they don't want the skill to be spammed...

IMO they shouldn't have changed Ash Cloud to a low cost per second skill (i.e. spam-able) to begin with. And when the problems with the skill arose they should've just reverted it back to what had worked for years.

I was perfectly fine even with the old form of Ash Cloud/Cinder Storm/Eruption where it had a high flat cost and could proc Helping Hands for a little bit of stamina.

axi · March 2023

N00BxV1 wrote: »

I never said PvP players were the problem. I said this was another PvE nerf because of PvP problems.

Each mode receives nerfs because of the other mode. It's not anyone's fault, we just play the game that they make.

Nobody in PvE gave a damn that it was easy to proc Helping Hands with Ash Cloud ever since ZOS changed how the skill worked. Most people probably didn't know or didn't care.

This was a only a problem for PvP, and it needed to be changed for the sake of balance.

But Ash Cloud shouldn't have been completely disallowed from proc'ing Helping Hands. They could've done something else, like adding a cool-down for that skill... or anything would've been better than nothing.

-- Ash Cloud (and its morphs) was changed a while back and they made it literally spam-able -- low cost per second instead of the high flat cost that it used to have. And it's very easy to make the skill completely free to use with just a little bit of cost reduction...

-- Eruption was also changed to only do the explosion damage once every 10 seconds because they don't want the skill to be spammed...

-- Helping Hands has now been changed and it does not work at all with Ash Cloud because they don't want the skill to be spammed...

IMO they shouldn't have changed Ash Cloud to a low cost per second skill (i.e. spam-able) to begin with. And when the problems with the skill arose they should've just reverted it back to what had worked for years.

I was perfectly fine even with the old form of Ash Cloud/Cinder Storm/Eruption where it had a high flat cost and could proc Helping Hands for a little bit of stamina.

Fact that players in PvE didn't give a damm doesn't mean developers also didn't. Passive itself was busted in both PvE and PvP. It was just more visible in PvP because PvE mobs do not post on forum that someone is permablocking their attacks easily. DK sustain on a PvE tank was far ahead of every other tank with this passive. You said it Yourself that You've been using it for that specific reason and now You're suprised devs removed it. One class having easily sustainable permablocking is a problem in both PvE and PvP. Problem with the skill itself is that it didn't worked well for years. With a massive upfront cost it was problematic sometimes to use it in rotations.

N00BxV1 · March 2023

axi wrote: »

N00BxV1 wrote: »

I never said PvP players were the problem. I said this was another PvE nerf because of PvP problems.

Each mode receives nerfs because of the other mode. It's not anyone's fault, we just play the game that they make.

Nobody in PvE gave a damn that it was easy to proc Helping Hands with Ash Cloud ever since ZOS changed how the skill worked. Most people probably didn't know or didn't care.

This was a only a problem for PvP, and it needed to be changed for the sake of balance.

But Ash Cloud shouldn't have been completely disallowed from proc'ing Helping Hands. They could've done something else, like adding a cool-down for that skill... or anything would've been better than nothing.

-- Ash Cloud (and its morphs) was changed a while back and they made it literally spam-able -- low cost per second instead of the high flat cost that it used to have. And it's very easy to make the skill completely free to use with just a little bit of cost reduction...

-- Eruption was also changed to only do the explosion damage once every 10 seconds because they don't want the skill to be spammed...

-- Helping Hands has now been changed and it does not work at all with Ash Cloud because they don't want the skill to be spammed...

IMO they shouldn't have changed Ash Cloud to a low cost per second skill (i.e. spam-able) to begin with. And when the problems with the skill arose they should've just reverted it back to what had worked for years.

I was perfectly fine even with the old form of Ash Cloud/Cinder Storm/Eruption where it had a high flat cost and could proc Helping Hands for a little bit of stamina.

Fact that players in PvE didn't give a damm doesn't mean developers also didn't. Passive itself was busted in both PvE and PvP. It was just more visible in PvP because PvE mobs do not post on forum that someone is permablocking their attacks easily. DK sustain on a PvE tank was far ahead of every other tank with this passive. You said it Yourself that You've been using it for that specific reason and now You're suprised devs removed it. One class having easily sustainable permablocking is a problem in both PvE and PvP. Problem with the skill itself is that it didn't worked well for years. With a massive upfront cost it was problematic sometimes to use it in rotations.

I have been a DK PvE main since 2014 and I have used Ash Cloud (Eruption, Cinder Storm) on every single one of my DK's (MagDK, StamDK, Tank) since at least 2016 because that's when I returned after One Tamriel.

I did not just start using Ash Cloud recently like you seem to be assuming.

I am not arguing that the skill + passive was busted in that state.

I was not only using Ash Cloud "for that specific reason".

I am not surprised about anything the devs do or don't do.

I just want the skill to proc Helping Hands and give me some stamina for spending magicka once in a while like it used to before they started playing darts with all the changes.

N00BxV1 · March 2023

robpr wrote: »

Just change it to 100 stam recovery bonus and put it to rest finally...

Stamina recovery does not work while blocking.

The purpose of Helping Hands is to restore stamina while blocking by spending magicka.

OBJnoob · March 2023

People were using 1 or 2 reduce spell cost jewelry to make the spell cost basically nothing and spamming it to have endless stamina while blocking. This may not be what you were doing, but it was absolutely a problem in PvE as well as PvP. Similarly to how mist form was trivializing certain mechanics in PvE, ash cloud was making tanking easier than it was supposed to be by granting permablock with no further investment.

It really wasn't a PvP exclusive problem... But again, players complain when other people do this to them. The boss of the dungeon didn't complain but that doesn't mean it wasnt a problem.

If the way they fixed it had some unintended results or doesn't meet with your satisfaction then that really is too bad. But your passing remark about "yet another thing PvPers..." Or however you phrased it... It was what it was.

The_Titan_Tim · March 2023

It’s bad enough that Dragonknight has everything you could possibly want in it’s toolkit for a tank…

AoE Minor Maim Root + Synergy
Cost Forgiving Major Expedition Chains
97% Mitigation + AoE Ward + AoE Burning Proc
Major Resolve that applies Burning
Free Magicka when applying Burning
10% Free Block Mitigation
12% Free Healing Received
5% Health Recovery per Draconic Power Ability Slotted
1650 Free Physical and Spell Resistances
2 Meters Extra Range on Melee (wtf?)
Major Mending Ward
Free AoE HoT 70% Snare
Passive 20 seconds of 10% Weapon Damage for the group + Ult Gen
1 Minute of 20% Weapon and Spell Damage for the group
Health Based Heal providing 20% Health Recovery
Free Stamina, Magicka, and Health on ANY Ultimate

You say Helping Hands didn’t have a negative impact on PvE, yet it was one more thing they had over every other class in the game, an exploit at that.

What about Templar and Sorcerer PvE tanks how about Nightblade, Necromancer, and Warden?

Other classes do exist, and struggle as it is to fill the role of Main Tank.

I’d say the class could have a third of those listed benefits removed or replaced, and dispersed to the other classes that quite literally have nothing going for them, and Dragonknight would still be in a great place, instead of the only place.