Been experimenting with 2handed and ice staff tanking, both need just a small tweak to be viable

dsalter · March 2023

straight to the point instead of all the boring stuff i'v found that 2handed tanking and ice staff tanking can be pretty damn viable but they need some very small but very impactful changes to make them work.

2handed could use a taunt and i know the PERFECT skill morph for it, Cleve > Brawler.

why brawler? it already gives a damage shield so is clearly intended to be tanky, adding a taunt to it and maybe reducing the cost slightly would give 2handed weapons a viable way to tank.

you are probably wondering, "how do you make them tanky?!" well, with a little tweak to the passives 2 handed could become tanky with investment.

Follow up: add that when you complete a heavy attack it causes the enemy to lose 1500/3000 armor and spell resistance for 15 seconds (splashes with Forceful), this will give 2 handed a way to reduce some resistances
Move the Balanced Blade passive onto Heavy Weapons and rename it "Parry"
Parry: passively reduces the cost of blocking by 15%, increases block mitigation by 20% (while wearing at least 3 heavy armor) and blocking an attack restores 200/400 magicka and stamina (2 second cooldown)
Battle Rush: enemies you deal damage to for the next 3 seconds trigger the effect up from killing blow, gain minor vitality as long as you have a 2 handed weapon equipped

these few changes could allow a 2 handed weapon user to tank even if a little more on the gimmick side, but with the build i have i can somewhat tank most veteran dungeons using a 2hander (im using tormentor set for taunting and a bunch of % bonus healing intake with a ton of health stats) so im sure with these changes someone more creative could make them fully viable.

frost staff still struggling to tank so why not give frost staff holders a passive minor protection and toughness via Tri-focus or Ancient Knowledge, that should help ease them into the role, and if that still does not help we could throw in vitality.

im a big fan of off meta setups so part of why i made the suggestions, feel free to criticise and such, maybe even add in your own suggestion

ESO_Nightingale · March 2023

dsalter wrote: »

straight to the point instead of all the boring stuff i'v found that 2handed tanking and ice staff tanking can be pretty damn viable but they need some very small but very impactful changes to make them work.
2handed could use a taunt and i know the PERFECT skill morph for it, Cleve > Brawler.

why brawler? it already gives a damage shield so is clearly intended to be tanky, adding a taunt to it and maybe reducing the cost slightly would give 2handed weapons a viable way to tank.

you are probably wondering, "how do you make them tanky?!" well, with a little tweak to the passives 2 handed could become tanky with investment.
Follow up: add that when you complete a heavy attack it causes the enemy to lose 1500/3000 armor and spell resistance for 15 seconds (splashes with Forceful), this will give 2 handed a way to reduce some resistances

Move the Balanced Blade passive onto Heavy Weapons and rename it "Parry"

Parry: passively reduces the cost of blocking by 15%, increases block mitigation by 20% (while wearing at least 3 heavy armor) and blocking an attack restores 200/400 magicka and stamina (2 second cooldown)

Battle Rush: enemies you deal damage to for the next 3 seconds trigger the effect up from killing blow, gain minor vitality as long as you have a 2 handed weapon equipped

these few changes could allow a 2 handed weapon user to tank even if a little more on the gimmick side, but with the build i have i can somewhat tank most veteran dungeons using a 2hander (im using tormentor set for taunting and a bunch of % bonus healing intake with a ton of health stats) so im sure with these changes someone more creative could make them fully viable.

frost staff still struggling to tank so why not give frost staff holders a passive minor protection and toughness via Tri-focus or Ancient Knowledge, that should help ease them into the role, and if that still does not help we could throw in vitality.

im a big fan of off meta setups so part of why i made the suggestions, feel free to criticise and such, maybe even add in your own suggestion

frost staves are often used by tanks and even double barred for brittle uptimes. they're certainly viable for tanking.

dsalter · March 2023

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

straight to the point instead of all the boring stuff i'v found that 2handed tanking and ice staff tanking can be pretty damn viable but they need some very small but very impactful changes to make them work.
2handed could use a taunt and i know the PERFECT skill morph for it, Cleve > Brawler.

why brawler? it already gives a damage shield so is clearly intended to be tanky, adding a taunt to it and maybe reducing the cost slightly would give 2handed weapons a viable way to tank.

you are probably wondering, "how do you make them tanky?!" well, with a little tweak to the passives 2 handed could become tanky with investment.
Follow up: add that when you complete a heavy attack it causes the enemy to lose 1500/3000 armor and spell resistance for 15 seconds (splashes with Forceful), this will give 2 handed a way to reduce some resistances

Move the Balanced Blade passive onto Heavy Weapons and rename it "Parry"

Parry: passively reduces the cost of blocking by 15%, increases block mitigation by 20% (while wearing at least 3 heavy armor) and blocking an attack restores 200/400 magicka and stamina (2 second cooldown)

Battle Rush: enemies you deal damage to for the next 3 seconds trigger the effect up from killing blow, gain minor vitality as long as you have a 2 handed weapon equipped

these few changes could allow a 2 handed weapon user to tank even if a little more on the gimmick side, but with the build i have i can somewhat tank most veteran dungeons using a 2hander (im using tormentor set for taunting and a bunch of % bonus healing intake with a ton of health stats) so im sure with these changes someone more creative could make them fully viable.

frost staff still struggling to tank so why not give frost staff holders a passive minor protection and toughness via Tri-focus or Ancient Knowledge, that should help ease them into the role, and if that still does not help we could throw in vitality.

im a big fan of off meta setups so part of why i made the suggestions, feel free to criticise and such, maybe even add in your own suggestion

frost staves are often used by tanks and even double barred for brittle uptimes. they're certainly viable for tanking.

really now? from all the dungeon spamming i'v been doing on a healer i have yet to come across one in veteran and while playing one i notice i do take more damage than the sword and board counterpart

AcadianPaladin · March 2023

Aside from all the blocking advantages with S&B, I would hate to give up the super easy 100% uptime on both major and minor breach. What I do like about 2h is that your heavy attacks are AoE. What I like about ice staff is. . . well, not much since heavy attacks no longer taunt. Therefore, I run either dual S&B or S&B + 2h for fun.

Soarora · March 2023

You can taunt with a 2h. Use inner fire from Undaunted. It would be interesting if 2h let tanks do some real damage, maybe one of the weapon types resulting in damage scaling off max health, but not to the extreme that tanks then HAVE to do damage. It’d help get more people into tanking and deal with low dps in dungeons better.
Edit: though the trade-off may also be that if you block on 2h, you die. Risk of dying and reward of doing damage.

And yeah, double ice is viable. I’ve seen it in trials and played around with it in dungeons.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2023

dsalter wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

straight to the point instead of all the boring stuff i'v found that 2handed tanking and ice staff tanking can be pretty damn viable but they need some very small but very impactful changes to make them work.
2handed could use a taunt and i know the PERFECT skill morph for it, Cleve > Brawler.

why brawler? it already gives a damage shield so is clearly intended to be tanky, adding a taunt to it and maybe reducing the cost slightly would give 2handed weapons a viable way to tank.

you are probably wondering, "how do you make them tanky?!" well, with a little tweak to the passives 2 handed could become tanky with investment.
Follow up: add that when you complete a heavy attack it causes the enemy to lose 1500/3000 armor and spell resistance for 15 seconds (splashes with Forceful), this will give 2 handed a way to reduce some resistances

Move the Balanced Blade passive onto Heavy Weapons and rename it "Parry"

Parry: passively reduces the cost of blocking by 15%, increases block mitigation by 20% (while wearing at least 3 heavy armor) and blocking an attack restores 200/400 magicka and stamina (2 second cooldown)

Battle Rush: enemies you deal damage to for the next 3 seconds trigger the effect up from killing blow, gain minor vitality as long as you have a 2 handed weapon equipped

these few changes could allow a 2 handed weapon user to tank even if a little more on the gimmick side, but with the build i have i can somewhat tank most veteran dungeons using a 2hander (im using tormentor set for taunting and a bunch of % bonus healing intake with a ton of health stats) so im sure with these changes someone more creative could make them fully viable.

frost staff still struggling to tank so why not give frost staff holders a passive minor protection and toughness via Tri-focus or Ancient Knowledge, that should help ease them into the role, and if that still does not help we could throw in vitality.

im a big fan of off meta setups so part of why i made the suggestions, feel free to criticise and such, maybe even add in your own suggestion

frost staves are often used by tanks and even double barred for brittle uptimes. they're certainly viable for tanking.

really now? from all the dungeon spamming i'v been doing on a healer i have yet to come across one in veteran and while playing one i notice i do take more damage than the sword and board counterpart

Ice staves offer unique bonuses to the group at the cost of some tankiness.

CardinalJack · March 2023

Funnily enough, I was planning on experimenting with the idea of a 2h tank using imperial necromancer. Just for clearing Normal dungeons and whatever world boss someone needs help with. Go into the whole death knight theme. Just not sure what sets to farm.

The idea for the 2h skill alterations sounds interesting and tanking could use more variety, so you got my vote.

endgamesmug · March 2023

Wardens would really benefit from all these ideas in pvp, so there would be complaints i suspect.

Luth7 · March 2023

Ice staff bashes should cost magicka and work at a longer range than just melee.

dsalter · March 2023

CardinalJack wrote: »

Funnily enough, I was planning on experimenting with the idea of a 2h tank using imperial necromancer. Just for clearing Normal dungeons and whatever world boss someone needs help with. Go into the whole death knight theme. Just not sure what sets to farm.

The idea for the 2h skill alterations sounds interesting and tanking could use more variety, so you got my vote.

if you want the death knight feel, get tormentor (for the healing intake+pulls = taunt) and use silver shard as your "death grip" and malibeth (or whatever its spelled) monster set for the lifesteal healing

OBJnoob · March 2023

Luth7 wrote: »

Ice staff bashes should cost magicka and work at a longer range than just melee.

Negative. There is already a skill available to Destro staff users for ranged interrupts. Actually yes, I agree that bashing with an Ice Staff should cost magicka. But I disagree you should be able to do it from range. Not sure how that even makes sense. "Magic," I guess, but still.

Amottica · March 2023

We don’t need another weapon skill like half hazardly changes into a tanking weapon as we have with the frost staff. If someone wants to tank with the 2H then go for it as there is access to a taunt via the undaunted line. That is the intent of a taunt accessible to every character regardless of class or weapon choice.

We don’t need to try to make every possible tank build viable for every type of content either.

Luth7 · March 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Luth7 wrote: »

Ice staff bashes should cost magicka and work at a longer range than just melee.

Negative. There is already a skill available to Destro staff users for ranged interrupts. Actually yes, I agree that bashing with an Ice Staff should cost magicka. But I disagree you should be able to do it from range. Not sure how that even makes sense. "Magic," I guess, but still.

It could help making bash builds viable on frost staff and therefore reduce the meta slavery a bit. The "force shock" morph does interrupt at range, but the amount of interruptible actions in the game is very small and i think it has very little use outside of capture the relic battlegrounds and maybe against some niche psijic order builds. In theory it could be viable overland but that content can be done naked, so the impact of interrupts on the outcome of a fight is very low.
Not sure about the lore, but i guess when someone can summon fire, ice, lightning etc out of nothing, it would be no problem to manipulate kinetic energy at range too.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2023

Luth7 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Luth7 wrote: »

Ice staff bashes should cost magicka and work at a longer range than just melee.

Negative. There is already a skill available to Destro staff users for ranged interrupts. Actually yes, I agree that bashing with an Ice Staff should cost magicka. But I disagree you should be able to do it from range. Not sure how that even makes sense. "Magic," I guess, but still.

It could help making bash builds viable on frost staff and therefore reduce the meta slavery a bit. The "force shock" morph does interrupt at range, but the amount of interruptible actions in the game is very small and i think it has very little use outside of capture the relic battlegrounds and maybe against some niche psijic order builds. In theory it could be viable overland but that content can be done naked, so the impact of interrupts on the outcome of a fight is very low.
Not sure about the lore, but i guess when someone can summon fire, ice, lightning etc out of nothing, it would be no problem to manipulate kinetic energy at range too.

bash builds on frost staff viable and meta slavery? lmao

El_Borracho · March 2023

I'm assuming this is for dungeons, because I don't think a 2H tank is going to do very much for a trials group. To the point I would be surprised if a 2H tank could survive something like the ice dragon in VSS.

You can taunt with an ice staff if you use Destructive Clench. Its a little more expensive than Inner Rage. Ice staves also give a better damage shield than Brawler with Tri Focus

The 2 issues between S&B vs. 2H are the passives you get for tanking with S&B and the group damage benefits. Damage mitigation, skill costs, the cost of blocking, and the cost of bashing all come with S&B. All 2H gives is stamina regen. Skills like Pierce Armor give Major and Minor Breach, Deep Slash give Minor Maim, and Power Bash with the Vateshran S&B is a mob pull. In order to get those debuffs with a 2H, you need to run sets that aren't always going to help the group. If you want a mob pull, you'll have to run something like Tormentor.

But this ignores the main point: After years of only being a PVP skill line, 2H is FINALLY a viable PVE DD. Why go and change all of that? Almost all of the 2H skills are actually useful in either PVP or PVE. I don't think anyone needs or wants a 2H tank at the cost of changing a perfectly good skill like Brawler or Cleave. As for changing the passives? I love them... for PVP. Which means they would be instantly nerfed. And they don't really make up for what S&B already gives you.

I love innovation in the game. But tanks are tanks. They are not and should not be DD alternatives, which is where I feel this is going.

Araneae6537 · March 2023

I like your suggestions for the 2H cleave morph — I skill I’ve not really done anything with on any of my characters as is. I’m not a fan of all tanks using S&B and ice staff — it’s kind of a weird arbitrary combo really. S&B make sense as primary for tanking but I like to try other options for backbar even though the CP and passives try to force ice staff. I like using 2H backbar to S&B for melee focused tanks but I wouldn’t try it in vet trials at present. It would be great to have additional morph or passive options to get more utilization from other backbar weapon choices, including 2H and lightning staff (I use the latter on my Maormer sorc tank — I like my themed builds, hehe).

jecks33 · March 2023

El_Borracho wrote: »

But tanks are tanks. They are not and should not be DD alternatives, which is where I feel this is going.

I agree, we have to taunt enemies, buff & debuff, protect the group, deal with more mechanics than other members in the group. It's a very fun role and personally, I don't want to even check my dps as a tank

robpr · March 2023

dsalter wrote: »

really now? from all the dungeon spamming i'v been doing on a healer i have yet to come across one in veteran and while playing one i notice i do take more damage than the sword and board counterpart

Because s&b is superior - easy breach uptime with low cost, increased movement speed while blocking, more block mitigation, reduced block stamina cost and ultra defensive ultimate when in pinch.

Ice staff is usually used by off-tank in trials for brittle uptime, but you can tank with it in dungeons unless very hard hitting ones you need to dodge (UHG HM comes to my mind). It has passives to move block cost to magicka (mag recovery is not pausing while blocking like stamina), you have ranged taunt with applying brittle and major maim, wall of frost applies minor breach now to chilled targets and gives projectile shield to you and allies, elemental sus is 30s major breach, frost pulsar gives you minor protection. Chilled status applies minor maim.
Ice staff has all tools needed for tanking except the utility of minor heroism with heroic slash and gap closer that is nice to have in some content (CR, HoF triplets, DSR twins)