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Why can't we just pick what are race traits will be?
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nb_rich✭✭✭Race only really matters if you going for high scores or sit and hit the dummy all day, besides that pick whatever you like.
Also if you could get any race passives on any race then they would be nothing different between the races besides its looks, also everyone would just pick the same passives as each other based upon there role. It would also be “unfair” to new players since they would have no clue what passives are most useful for what they are trying to do. It would be more impactful selecting the wrong passives then selecting the “wrong” race as they currently are.nb_rich2 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Race only really matters if you going for high scores or sit and hit the dummy all day, besides that pick whatever you like.
Also if you could get any race passives on any race then they would be nothing different between the races besides its looks, also everyone would just pick the same passives as each other based upon there role. It would also be “unfair” to new players since they would have no clue what passives are most useful for what they are trying to do. It would be more impactful selecting the wrong passives then selecting the “wrong” race as they currently are.
Race matters in all content, as the passive stats you gain don’t deactivate anywhere.
New players would be punished a lot less only having to go to a shrine to select a different racial as compared to buying a race change token assuming they want to change their stats.2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Race only really matters if you going for high scores or sit and hit the dummy all day, besides that pick whatever you like.
Also if you could get any race passives on any race then they would be nothing different between the races besides its looks, also everyone would just pick the same passives as each other based upon there role. It would also be “unfair” to new players since they would have no clue what passives are most useful for what they are trying to do. It would be more impactful selecting the wrong passives then selecting the “wrong” race as they currently are.
Race matters in all content, as the passive stats you gain don’t deactivate anywhere.
New players would be punished a lot less only having to go to a shrine to select a different racial as compared to buying a race change token assuming they want to change their stats.
I agree about the “Race matters in all content, as the passive stats you gain don’t deactivate anywhere” part. I just think the races should be better balanced.
Apparently the power difference between best and worst race passives is 5%. If there was an item that passively increased all dps by 5% in game without taking up an item slot, players would be farming for it.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Race only really matters if you going for high scores or sit and hit the dummy all day, besides that pick whatever you like.
Also if you could get any race passives on any race then they would be nothing different between the races besides its looks, also everyone would just pick the same passives as each other based upon there role. It would also be “unfair” to new players since they would have no clue what passives are most useful for what they are trying to do. It would be more impactful selecting the wrong passives then selecting the “wrong” race as they currently are.
Race matters in all content, as the passive stats you gain don’t deactivate anywhere.
New players would be punished a lot less only having to go to a shrine to select a different racial as compared to buying a race change token assuming they want to change their stats.
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Let's keep in mind that the choice to buy a race change tokens vs create a new character is one area where ZOS does make money, either from the tokens or from the increased playtime that comes with making a new character (plus potentially buying boosts/skill lines that make leveling a new character more convenient.
Now, ZOS could decide to give up that money to add a shrine or NPC in game where you can change your race, but I kind of doubt it'll happen anytime soon.
Also, if we ever reach the point where we're changing passives at a whim like we do our attributes regardless of our race, I think we'd need to just call them "role passives" or something that distinguishes them from the preexisting racial passives.0 -
Foxtrot39✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their ownEdited by Foxtrot39 on 26 February 2023 14:452 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.2 -
Castagere✭✭✭✭✭
✭So what I'm seeing here a lot is race doesn't matter if you limit the type of content you play. That's just stupid and proves the passives need a huge rework.1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
ZOS' goal is that every race is viable, but not necessarily optimal in every class/role. Are you saying they aren't even viable?
I'd sooner tell such a player to practice their rotation and weaving, because that's more likely to get them into the "viable" category. Like, sure, we all know people for whom its "meta or bust", but we also know that the threshold for "can viably complete the content" is a lot broader than the meta would suggest for skilled players. Most players who currently can't perform their role viably will improve more from practice than they will from a race swap token.
Now, if we're talking score-pushing, then I'm gonna be blunt and say that your chosen class makes a bigger difference in your ability to scorepush during a given update than race, which guess what, you can't change at all without making a new character.
ESO is not a particularly friendly game for players who want to only ever make one character AND be optimal at everything. Which makes sense for an MMORPG, rather than a single player game.4 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
ZOS' goal is that every race is viable, but not necessarily optimal in every class/role. Are you saying they aren't even viable?
I'd sooner tell such a player to practice their rotation and weaving, because that's more likely to get them into the "viable" category. Like, sure, we all know people for whom its "meta or bust", but we also know that the threshold for "can viably complete the content" is a lot broader than the meta would suggest for skilled players. Most players who currently can't perform their role viably will improve more from practice than they will from a race swap token.
Now, if we're talking score-pushing, then I'm gonna be blunt and say that your chosen class makes a bigger difference in your ability to scorepush during a given update than race, which guess what, you can't change at all without making a new character.
ESO is not a particularly friendly game for players who want to only ever make one character AND be optimal at everything. Which makes sense for an MMORPG, rather than a single player game.
Here is a you tube video that just came out from a respected build channel.
https://youtu.be/p8mS6ETxSC8
Some races made multiple “top three” picks for a particular role. While races like Bosmers (and others) don’t make top three lists for anything from pvp to pve.
That is not healthy. It is screaming for some sort of change.
Zos can say that all races are viable for everything, but we are talking about actual gameplay.
Doing basic vet content on a dps race boss, every point of damage counts. And I am not talking about chasing point scores, I am talking about simple completion. A 2% wipe is not a great feeling when you start thinking it would have been a better ending on an appropriate race for the role.
Telling a player you can’t be viable spell caster, for example, but you race is great for tanking, is far different than saying your characters race is not particularly good at anything.
What is that player supposed to do? Reroll when there is no option to be particularly good at anything? Will that player do that after spending all that time and gold leveling, or just get frustrated and leave the game.3 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
ZOS' goal is that every race is viable, but not necessarily optimal in every class/role. Are you saying they aren't even viable?
I'd sooner tell such a player to practice their rotation and weaving, because that's more likely to get them into the "viable" category. Like, sure, we all know people for whom its "meta or bust", but we also know that the threshold for "can viably complete the content" is a lot broader than the meta would suggest for skilled players. Most players who currently can't perform their role viably will improve more from practice than they will from a race swap token.
Now, if we're talking score-pushing, then I'm gonna be blunt and say that your chosen class makes a bigger difference in your ability to scorepush during a given update than race, which guess what, you can't change at all without making a new character.
ESO is not a particularly friendly game for players who want to only ever make one character AND be optimal at everything. Which makes sense for an MMORPG, rather than a single player game.
Here is a you tube video that just came out from a respected build channel.https://youtu.be/p8mS6ETxSC8
Some races made multiple “top three” picks for a particular role. While races like Bosmers (and others) don’t make top three lists for anything from pvp to pve.
That is not healthy. It is screaming for some sort of change.
Zos can say that all races are viable for everything, but we are talking about actual gameplay.
Doing basic vet content on a dps race boss, every point of damage counts. And I am not talking about chasing point scores, I am talking about simple completion. A 2% wipe is not a great feeling when you start thinking it would have been a better ending on an appropriate race for the role.
Telling a player you can’t be viable spell caster, for example, but you race is great for tanking, is far different than saying your characters race is not particularly good at anything.
What is that player supposed to do? Reroll when there is no option to be particularly good at anything? Will that player do that after spending all that time and gold leveling, or just get frustrated and leave the game.
Around the 3:44 mark he says "You as a player, need to get better. It's not your race holding you back."10 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Race only really matters if you going for high scores or sit and hit the dummy all day, besides that pick whatever you like.
Also if you could get any race passives on any race then they would be nothing different between the races besides its looks, also everyone would just pick the same passives as each other based upon there role. It would also be “unfair” to new players since they would have no clue what passives are most useful for what they are trying to do. It would be more impactful selecting the wrong passives then selecting the “wrong” race as they currently are.
Race matters in all content, as the passive stats you gain don’t deactivate anywhere.
New players would be punished a lot less only having to go to a shrine to select a different racial as compared to buying a race change token assuming they want to change their stats.
I agree about the “Race matters in all content, as the passive stats you gain don’t deactivate anywhere” part. I just think the races should be better balanced.
Apparently the power difference between best and worst race passives is 5%. If there was an item that passively increased all dps by 5% in game without taking up an item slot, players would be farming for it.
Yeah the difference in dps between the races are 3-8% depending on what you are playing and what your build is. For example if you are playing a stamina build as a Breton, a dunmer will be 8% ahead of you, but an imperial will be about 4%. Etc.
It’s definitely too large a gap for racials. Every other mmo I have played either has no power based racials or only like a 1% overall difference.2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
ZOS' goal is that every race is viable, but not necessarily optimal in every class/role. Are you saying they aren't even viable?
I'd sooner tell such a player to practice their rotation and weaving, because that's more likely to get them into the "viable" category. Like, sure, we all know people for whom its "meta or bust", but we also know that the threshold for "can viably complete the content" is a lot broader than the meta would suggest for skilled players. Most players who currently can't perform their role viably will improve more from practice than they will from a race swap token.
Now, if we're talking score-pushing, then I'm gonna be blunt and say that your chosen class makes a bigger difference in your ability to scorepush during a given update than race, which guess what, you can't change at all without making a new character.
ESO is not a particularly friendly game for players who want to only ever make one character AND be optimal at everything. Which makes sense for an MMORPG, rather than a single player game.
Here is a you tube video that just came out from a respected build channel.https://youtu.be/p8mS6ETxSC8
Some races made multiple “top three” picks for a particular role. While races like Bosmers (and others) don’t make top three lists for anything from pvp to pve.
That is not healthy. It is screaming for some sort of change.
Zos can say that all races are viable for everything, but we are talking about actual gameplay.
Doing basic vet content on a dps race boss, every point of damage counts. And I am not talking about chasing point scores, I am talking about simple completion. A 2% wipe is not a great feeling when you start thinking it would have been a better ending on an appropriate race for the role.
Telling a player you can’t be viable spell caster, for example, but you race is great for tanking, is far different than saying your characters race is not particularly good at anything.
What is that player supposed to do? Reroll when there is no option to be particularly good at anything? Will that player do that after spending all that time and gold leveling, or just get frustrated and leave the game.
Around the 3:44 mark he says "You as a player, need to get better. It's not your race holding you back."
Yet they still give top three picks towards the end.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
ZOS' goal is that every race is viable, but not necessarily optimal in every class/role. Are you saying they aren't even viable?
I'd sooner tell such a player to practice their rotation and weaving, because that's more likely to get them into the "viable" category. Like, sure, we all know people for whom its "meta or bust", but we also know that the threshold for "can viably complete the content" is a lot broader than the meta would suggest for skilled players. Most players who currently can't perform their role viably will improve more from practice than they will from a race swap token.
Now, if we're talking score-pushing, then I'm gonna be blunt and say that your chosen class makes a bigger difference in your ability to scorepush during a given update than race, which guess what, you can't change at all without making a new character.
ESO is not a particularly friendly game for players who want to only ever make one character AND be optimal at everything. Which makes sense for an MMORPG, rather than a single player game.
Here is a you tube video that just came out from a respected build channel.https://youtu.be/p8mS6ETxSC8
Some races made multiple “top three” picks for a particular role. While races like Bosmers (and others) don’t make top three lists for anything from pvp to pve.
That is not healthy. It is screaming for some sort of change.
Zos can say that all races are viable for everything, but we are talking about actual gameplay.
Doing basic vet content on a dps race boss, every point of damage counts. And I am not talking about chasing point scores, I am talking about simple completion. A 2% wipe is not a great feeling when you start thinking it would have been a better ending on an appropriate race for the role.
Telling a player you can’t be viable spell caster, for example, but you race is great for tanking, is far different than saying your characters race is not particularly good at anything.
What is that player supposed to do? Reroll when there is no option to be particularly good at anything? Will that player do that after spending all that time and gold leveling, or just get frustrated and leave the game.
Around the 3:44 mark he says "You as a player, need to get better. It's not your race holding you back."
Yet they still give top three picks towards the end.
I very clearly said "viable." I'm not sure why we're talking about the top 3 picks, because that's talking about "optimal", not viable.
Are you going to argue that the other 7 races are not viable in the hands of a player with sufficient practice and experience? That they cannot possibly manage even a simple completion?
Again, if you're wiping at 2%, I'd point to practice before I told someone to buy a race change or reroll their character to a different race/class.6 -
Tsar_Gekkou✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wish we could just get something that lets us take the appearance of another race. Let me keep my breton passives while looking like a khajiit.Xbox NA healer main
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
ZOS' goal is that every race is viable, but not necessarily optimal in every class/role. Are you saying they aren't even viable?
I'd sooner tell such a player to practice their rotation and weaving, because that's more likely to get them into the "viable" category. Like, sure, we all know people for whom its "meta or bust", but we also know that the threshold for "can viably complete the content" is a lot broader than the meta would suggest for skilled players. Most players who currently can't perform their role viably will improve more from practice than they will from a race swap token.
Now, if we're talking score-pushing, then I'm gonna be blunt and say that your chosen class makes a bigger difference in your ability to scorepush during a given update than race, which guess what, you can't change at all without making a new character.
ESO is not a particularly friendly game for players who want to only ever make one character AND be optimal at everything. Which makes sense for an MMORPG, rather than a single player game.
Here is a you tube video that just came out from a respected build channel.https://youtu.be/p8mS6ETxSC8
Some races made multiple “top three” picks for a particular role. While races like Bosmers (and others) don’t make top three lists for anything from pvp to pve.
That is not healthy. It is screaming for some sort of change.
Zos can say that all races are viable for everything, but we are talking about actual gameplay.
Doing basic vet content on a dps race boss, every point of damage counts. And I am not talking about chasing point scores, I am talking about simple completion. A 2% wipe is not a great feeling when you start thinking it would have been a better ending on an appropriate race for the role.
Telling a player you can’t be viable spell caster, for example, but you race is great for tanking, is far different than saying your characters race is not particularly good at anything.
What is that player supposed to do? Reroll when there is no option to be particularly good at anything? Will that player do that after spending all that time and gold leveling, or just get frustrated and leave the game.
Around the 3:44 mark he says "You as a player, need to get better. It's not your race holding you back."
Yet they still give top three picks towards the end.
I very clearly said "viable." I'm not sure why we're talking about the top 3 picks, because that's talking about "optimal", not viable.
Are you going to argue that the other 7 races are not viable in the hands of a player with sufficient practice and experience? That they cannot possibly manage even a simple completion?
Again, if you're wiping at 2%, I'd point to practice before I told someone to buy a race change or reroll their character to a different race/class.
"Are you going to argue that the other 7 races are not viable in the hands of a player with sufficient practice and experience?"
A pro race car driver is going to drive great even in an inferior car, but they will perform better if they are in a superior one.
A player "with sufficient practice and experience" is always going to perform better with one of the better races, than with a race that is not that great for the role.
A player with mediocre skills is always going to perform better with one of the better races, than with a race that is not that great for the role.
A player with bad skills is always going to perform better with one of the better races, than with a race that is not that great for the role.
So what is the point you are making exactly?
And quite frankly saying all the races are "viable", just not optimal sounds kinda shady. Viable is a pretty broad and generic term.
It sounds like a car salesman saying that a rear wheel drive sportscar is "viable but not optimal" for snow, when the customer is eyeing a 4 wheel drive off roader. Technically it's true, but we all know what the better choice would be.
"Are you going to argue that the sports car is not viable in snow in the hands of a driver with sufficient practice and experience?" It is viable, just NOT advisable is the answer.
And that is the answer to your race question above. All the races are viable, just NOT advisable. Not a great answer for a game to be honest.
The 2% example is pointing towards how a player would feel in that situation. Yeah they could try and get better, but I am guessing they are also going to feel a bit ashamed and resentful about their race pick first. "That would not have happened if I rolled a dark elf or kahjit".
Races should be at MOST 1-2% of each other, 5% is a gigantic number. It's a pretty ridicules number really. And in a "top three pick" each race should at least show up for something, anything, at least once. But there are races that consistently show up in multiple lists, and others that never show up.
Why is that? Why is it good design to have races that are not a top three pick for anything, while others are a top three pick for multiple things?Edited by BlueRaven on 27 February 2023 03:325 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
ZOS' goal is that every race is viable, but not necessarily optimal in every class/role. Are you saying they aren't even viable?
I'd sooner tell such a player to practice their rotation and weaving, because that's more likely to get them into the "viable" category. Like, sure, we all know people for whom its "meta or bust", but we also know that the threshold for "can viably complete the content" is a lot broader than the meta would suggest for skilled players. Most players who currently can't perform their role viably will improve more from practice than they will from a race swap token.
Now, if we're talking score-pushing, then I'm gonna be blunt and say that your chosen class makes a bigger difference in your ability to scorepush during a given update than race, which guess what, you can't change at all without making a new character.
ESO is not a particularly friendly game for players who want to only ever make one character AND be optimal at everything. Which makes sense for an MMORPG, rather than a single player game.
Here is a you tube video that just came out from a respected build channel.https://youtu.be/p8mS6ETxSC8
Some races made multiple “top three” picks for a particular role. While races like Bosmers (and others) don’t make top three lists for anything from pvp to pve.
That is not healthy. It is screaming for some sort of change.
Zos can say that all races are viable for everything, but we are talking about actual gameplay.
Doing basic vet content on a dps race boss, every point of damage counts. And I am not talking about chasing point scores, I am talking about simple completion. A 2% wipe is not a great feeling when you start thinking it would have been a better ending on an appropriate race for the role.
Telling a player you can’t be viable spell caster, for example, but you race is great for tanking, is far different than saying your characters race is not particularly good at anything.
What is that player supposed to do? Reroll when there is no option to be particularly good at anything? Will that player do that after spending all that time and gold leveling, or just get frustrated and leave the game.
Around the 3:44 mark he says "You as a player, need to get better. It's not your race holding you back."
Yet they still give top three picks towards the end.
I very clearly said "viable." I'm not sure why we're talking about the top 3 picks, because that's talking about "optimal", not viable.
Are you going to argue that the other 7 races are not viable in the hands of a player with sufficient practice and experience? That they cannot possibly manage even a simple completion?
Again, if you're wiping at 2%, I'd point to practice before I told someone to buy a race change or reroll their character to a different race/class.
And that is the answer to your race question above. All the races are viable, just NOT advisable. Not a great answer for a game to be honest.
Thanks!
I think its a fine answer for an MMORPG based on the TES games where races have substantial differences. Its a solid balance between "you can play whatever race you like and still be able to complete all the content (assuming you have the baseline skill required to do so)" and "you can play a specific race and be optimal for the role you chose."
Its the sort of answer that's best summed up as "You can play whatever you want and still complete all the content, but if you want to be optimal for this role, you'll want to pick X, Y, or Z." And I think that's a fine piece of advice, especially for new players. It respects player freedom and gives some basic guidance.
Since all races are viable, i.e. they can complete the content, its up to the individual player to decide how much priority they want to put on "play the race I want" vs "play the optimal race." I don't have a problem with players needing to choose their priorities, since the very nature of the meta means there will always be a top three unless ZOS overhauls racial passives to be flavor-only/have no impact on gameplay.
I understand that you disagree about it being a fine answer, so perhaps we're better off agreeing to disagree, because I feel like I'm starting to circle around the same points or divert into talking about purely hypothetical overhauls.4 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
ZOS' goal is that every race is viable, but not necessarily optimal in every class/role. Are you saying they aren't even viable?
I'd sooner tell such a player to practice their rotation and weaving, because that's more likely to get them into the "viable" category. Like, sure, we all know people for whom its "meta or bust", but we also know that the threshold for "can viably complete the content" is a lot broader than the meta would suggest for skilled players. Most players who currently can't perform their role viably will improve more from practice than they will from a race swap token.
Now, if we're talking score-pushing, then I'm gonna be blunt and say that your chosen class makes a bigger difference in your ability to scorepush during a given update than race, which guess what, you can't change at all without making a new character.
ESO is not a particularly friendly game for players who want to only ever make one character AND be optimal at everything. Which makes sense for an MMORPG, rather than a single player game.
Here is a you tube video that just came out from a respected build channel.https://youtu.be/p8mS6ETxSC8
Some races made multiple “top three” picks for a particular role. While races like Bosmers (and others) don’t make top three lists for anything from pvp to pve.
That is not healthy. It is screaming for some sort of change.
Zos can say that all races are viable for everything, but we are talking about actual gameplay.
Doing basic vet content on a dps race boss, every point of damage counts. And I am not talking about chasing point scores, I am talking about simple completion. A 2% wipe is not a great feeling when you start thinking it would have been a better ending on an appropriate race for the role.
Telling a player you can’t be viable spell caster, for example, but you race is great for tanking, is far different than saying your characters race is not particularly good at anything.
What is that player supposed to do? Reroll when there is no option to be particularly good at anything? Will that player do that after spending all that time and gold leveling, or just get frustrated and leave the game.
Around the 3:44 mark he says "You as a player, need to get better. It's not your race holding you back."
Yet they still give top three picks towards the end.
I very clearly said "viable." I'm not sure why we're talking about the top 3 picks, because that's talking about "optimal", not viable.
Are you going to argue that the other 7 races are not viable in the hands of a player with sufficient practice and experience? That they cannot possibly manage even a simple completion?
Again, if you're wiping at 2%, I'd point to practice before I told someone to buy a race change or reroll their character to a different race/class.
And that is the answer to your race question above. All the races are viable, just NOT advisable. Not a great answer for a game to be honest.
Thanks!
I think its a fine answer for an MMORPG based on the TES games where races have substantial differences. Its a solid balance between "you can play whatever race you like and still be able to complete all the content (assuming you have the baseline skill required to do so)" and "you can play a specific race and be optimal for the role you chose."
Its the sort of answer that's best summed up as "You can play whatever you want and still complete all the content, but if you want to be optimal for this role, you'll want to pick X, Y, or Z." And I think that's a fine piece of advice, especially for new players. It respects player freedom and gives some basic guidance.
Since all races are viable, i.e. they can complete the content, its up to the individual player to decide how much priority they want to put on "play the race I want" vs "play the optimal race." I don't have a problem with players needing to choose their priorities, since the very nature of the meta means there will always be a top three unless ZOS overhauls racial passives to be flavor-only/have no impact on gameplay.
I understand that you disagree about it being a fine answer, so perhaps we're better off agreeing to disagree, because I feel like I'm starting to circle around the same points or divert into talking about purely hypothetical overhauls.
Having a few races that are not advisable for anything is a problem.
And I answered your question but you did not answer mine.
But whatever.
The races are poorly balanced that is the crux of this issue. And they are not even lore friendly, they give the impression that the passives are just lazily thought out.
If they were done better we would not be having a conservation like this.
3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
ZOS' goal is that every race is viable, but not necessarily optimal in every class/role. Are you saying they aren't even viable?
I'd sooner tell such a player to practice their rotation and weaving, because that's more likely to get them into the "viable" category. Like, sure, we all know people for whom its "meta or bust", but we also know that the threshold for "can viably complete the content" is a lot broader than the meta would suggest for skilled players. Most players who currently can't perform their role viably will improve more from practice than they will from a race swap token.
Now, if we're talking score-pushing, then I'm gonna be blunt and say that your chosen class makes a bigger difference in your ability to scorepush during a given update than race, which guess what, you can't change at all without making a new character.
ESO is not a particularly friendly game for players who want to only ever make one character AND be optimal at everything. Which makes sense for an MMORPG, rather than a single player game.
Here is a you tube video that just came out from a respected build channel.https://youtu.be/p8mS6ETxSC8
Some races made multiple “top three” picks for a particular role. While races like Bosmers (and others) don’t make top three lists for anything from pvp to pve.
That is not healthy. It is screaming for some sort of change.
Zos can say that all races are viable for everything, but we are talking about actual gameplay.
Doing basic vet content on a dps race boss, every point of damage counts. And I am not talking about chasing point scores, I am talking about simple completion. A 2% wipe is not a great feeling when you start thinking it would have been a better ending on an appropriate race for the role.
Telling a player you can’t be viable spell caster, for example, but you race is great for tanking, is far different than saying your characters race is not particularly good at anything.
What is that player supposed to do? Reroll when there is no option to be particularly good at anything? Will that player do that after spending all that time and gold leveling, or just get frustrated and leave the game.
Around the 3:44 mark he says "You as a player, need to get better. It's not your race holding you back."
Yet they still give top three picks towards the end.
I very clearly said "viable." I'm not sure why we're talking about the top 3 picks, because that's talking about "optimal", not viable.
Are you going to argue that the other 7 races are not viable in the hands of a player with sufficient practice and experience? That they cannot possibly manage even a simple completion?
Again, if you're wiping at 2%, I'd point to practice before I told someone to buy a race change or reroll their character to a different race/class.
And that is the answer to your race question above. All the races are viable, just NOT advisable. Not a great answer for a game to be honest.
Thanks!
I think its a fine answer for an MMORPG based on the TES games where races have substantial differences. Its a solid balance between "you can play whatever race you like and still be able to complete all the content (assuming you have the baseline skill required to do so)" and "you can play a specific race and be optimal for the role you chose."
Its the sort of answer that's best summed up as "You can play whatever you want and still complete all the content, but if you want to be optimal for this role, you'll want to pick X, Y, or Z." And I think that's a fine piece of advice, especially for new players. It respects player freedom and gives some basic guidance.
Since all races are viable, i.e. they can complete the content, its up to the individual player to decide how much priority they want to put on "play the race I want" vs "play the optimal race." I don't have a problem with players needing to choose their priorities, since the very nature of the meta means there will always be a top three unless ZOS overhauls racial passives to be flavor-only/have no impact on gameplay.
I understand that you disagree about it being a fine answer, so perhaps we're better off agreeing to disagree, because I feel like I'm starting to circle around the same points or divert into talking about purely hypothetical overhauls.
Having a few races that are not advisable for anything is a problem.
And I answered your question but you did not answer mine.
But whatever.
The races are poorly balanced that is the crux of this issue. And they are not even lore friendly, they give the impression that the passives are just lazily thought out.
If they were done better we would not be having a conservation like this.
This question? "Why is it good design to have races that are not a top three pick for anything, while others are a top three pick for multiple things?"
You're the one who's been bringing up the top three. I've been focused on viability because that's ZOS' goal. The Devs have never guaranteed that every race will be in the top three at something. The Devs have made it their goal that all specs should be viable, but not optimal.
You can disagree with their goal. I think its a fine goal because it means that whatever race players pick, they'll be able to viably complete ESO's content without going "Oh no, I doomed my character at character creation because I picked the wrong race!"
To address your question directly, I'm fine with certain races not being in the top three for any roles so long as they remain viable in those roles. Again, players can choose their priorities: play the race they want vs play the optimal/advisable race.
Would it be nice if the racial top three were a little more evenly spread out? See, I sort of remember it starting out that way the last time ZOS changed all the passives. One of the quirks of ESO is that as the game's combat changes, different traits become more and less important to the meta, which means the "top three" shifts even without ZOS making direct changes to racial passives. Like, I remember when High Elf vs Breton was the big debate for Mag DDs depending on whether you wanted pure DPS or extra sustain. I remember when Redguards and Orcs were the top Stam DDs above Dark Elves. I remember Khajiit leaping to the top of a lot of categories when ZOS changed their passives and crit chance/damage combat around Elsweyr. Dark Elves always floated around the top four for DDs depending on the quirks of the particular update - right now, hybridization really plays to their strengths. The racial passives don't exist in a vaccuum but synergize with the other aspects of combat to determine the meta, which only highlights why ZOS makes sure the races stay viable, rather than trying to meet your benchmark of being in the top three.
However, I'm just going to note that even from your own video, eight out of the ten races are listed somewhere in the top threes. Seven out of the ten races have two roles where they are in the top three. That's actually a fairly large spread in the top threes. Plus, you've already said that Bosmer and Redguard are still viable, even if you personally wouldn't advise players to pick them.
Of course, I'm sure Bosmer would love, love, love their stealth passives back, which would give them a genuine PVP niche. Redguard is a pretty good example of how ZOS changing combat away from pure stamina stacking knocked them out of the top three even though they remain a fine choice for stamina focused roles.
Your video's tier lists, for easier reference:Stam DD
Dark Elf
Khajiit
Orc
Mag DD
High Elf
Dark Elf
Khajiit
PVE Healer
Breton
Argonian
Khajiit
PVE Tank
Nord
Imperial
Argonian
PVP Stamina
Khajiit
Imperial
Orc
PVP Magicka
Khajiit
Dark Elf
Breton
I hope that answered your question. If there's more to be discussed, great! Otherwise, I fully realize we're not going to change each other's minds, so I'm happy to leave it if you are.5 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
ZOS' goal is that every race is viable, but not necessarily optimal in every class/role. Are you saying they aren't even viable?
I'd sooner tell such a player to practice their rotation and weaving, because that's more likely to get them into the "viable" category. Like, sure, we all know people for whom its "meta or bust", but we also know that the threshold for "can viably complete the content" is a lot broader than the meta would suggest for skilled players. Most players who currently can't perform their role viably will improve more from practice than they will from a race swap token.
Now, if we're talking score-pushing, then I'm gonna be blunt and say that your chosen class makes a bigger difference in your ability to scorepush during a given update than race, which guess what, you can't change at all without making a new character.
ESO is not a particularly friendly game for players who want to only ever make one character AND be optimal at everything. Which makes sense for an MMORPG, rather than a single player game.
Here is a you tube video that just came out from a respected build channel.https://youtu.be/p8mS6ETxSC8
Some races made multiple “top three” picks for a particular role. While races like Bosmers (and others) don’t make top three lists for anything from pvp to pve.
That is not healthy. It is screaming for some sort of change.
Zos can say that all races are viable for everything, but we are talking about actual gameplay.
Doing basic vet content on a dps race boss, every point of damage counts. And I am not talking about chasing point scores, I am talking about simple completion. A 2% wipe is not a great feeling when you start thinking it would have been a better ending on an appropriate race for the role.
Telling a player you can’t be viable spell caster, for example, but you race is great for tanking, is far different than saying your characters race is not particularly good at anything.
What is that player supposed to do? Reroll when there is no option to be particularly good at anything? Will that player do that after spending all that time and gold leveling, or just get frustrated and leave the game.
Around the 3:44 mark he says "You as a player, need to get better. It's not your race holding you back."
Yet they still give top three picks towards the end.
I very clearly said "viable." I'm not sure why we're talking about the top 3 picks, because that's talking about "optimal", not viable.
Are you going to argue that the other 7 races are not viable in the hands of a player with sufficient practice and experience? That they cannot possibly manage even a simple completion?
Again, if you're wiping at 2%, I'd point to practice before I told someone to buy a race change or reroll their character to a different race/class.
And that is the answer to your race question above. All the races are viable, just NOT advisable. Not a great answer for a game to be honest.
Thanks!
I think its a fine answer for an MMORPG based on the TES games where races have substantial differences. Its a solid balance between "you can play whatever race you like and still be able to complete all the content (assuming you have the baseline skill required to do so)" and "you can play a specific race and be optimal for the role you chose."
Its the sort of answer that's best summed up as "You can play whatever you want and still complete all the content, but if you want to be optimal for this role, you'll want to pick X, Y, or Z." And I think that's a fine piece of advice, especially for new players. It respects player freedom and gives some basic guidance.
Since all races are viable, i.e. they can complete the content, its up to the individual player to decide how much priority they want to put on "play the race I want" vs "play the optimal race." I don't have a problem with players needing to choose their priorities, since the very nature of the meta means there will always be a top three unless ZOS overhauls racial passives to be flavor-only/have no impact on gameplay.
I understand that you disagree about it being a fine answer, so perhaps we're better off agreeing to disagree, because I feel like I'm starting to circle around the same points or divert into talking about purely hypothetical overhauls.
Having a few races that are not advisable for anything is a problem.
And I answered your question but you did not answer mine.
But whatever.
The races are poorly balanced that is the crux of this issue. And they are not even lore friendly, they give the impression that the passives are just lazily thought out.
If they were done better we would not be having a conservation like this.
This question? "Why is it good design to have races that are not a top three pick for anything, while others are a top three pick for multiple things?"
You're the one who's been bringing up the top three. I've been focused on viability because that's ZOS' goal. The Devs have never guaranteed that every race will be in the top three at something. The Devs have made it their goal that all specs should be viable, but not optimal.
You can disagree with their goal. I think its a fine goal because it means that whatever race players pick, they'll be able to viably complete ESO's content without going "Oh no, I doomed my character at character creation because I picked the wrong race!"
To address your question directly, I'm fine with certain races not being in the top three for any roles so long as they remain viable in those roles. Again, players can choose their priorities: play the race they want vs play the optimal/advisable race.
Would it be nice if the racial top three were a little more evenly spread out? See, I sort of remember it starting out that way the last time ZOS changed all the passives. One of the quirks of ESO is that as the game's combat changes, different traits become more and less important to the meta, which means the "top three" shifts even without ZOS making direct changes to racial passives. Like, I remember when High Elf vs Breton was the big debate for Mag DDs depending on whether you wanted pure DPS or extra sustain. I remember when Redguards and Orcs were the top Stam DDs above Dark Elves. I remember Khajiit leaping to the top of a lot of categories when ZOS changed their passives and crit chance/damage combat around Elsweyr. Dark Elves always floated around the top four for DDs depending on the quirks of the particular update - right now, hybridization really plays to their strengths. The racial passives don't exist in a vaccuum but synergize with the other aspects of combat to determine the meta, which only highlights why ZOS makes sure the races stay viable, rather than trying to meet your benchmark of being in the top three.
However, I'm just going to note that even from your own video, eight out of the ten races are listed somewhere in the top threes. Seven out of the ten races have two roles where they are in the top three. That's actually a fairly large spread in the top threes. Plus, you've already said that Bosmer and Redguard are still viable, even if you personally wouldn't advise players to pick them.
Of course, I'm sure Bosmer would love, love, love their stealth passives back, which would give them a genuine PVP niche. Redguard is a pretty good example of how ZOS changing combat away from pure stamina stacking knocked them out of the top three even though they remain a fine choice for stamina focused roles.
Your video's tier lists, for easier reference:Stam DD
Dark Elf
Khajiit
Orc
Mag DD
High Elf
Dark Elf
Khajiit
PVE Healer
Breton
Argonian
Khajiit
PVE Tank
Nord
Imperial
Argonian
PVP Stamina
Khajiit
Imperial
Orc
PVP Magicka
Khajiit
Dark Elf
Breton
I hope that answered your question. If there's more to be discussed, great! Otherwise, I fully realize we're not going to change each other's minds, so I'm happy to leave it if you are.
No you didn’t. But I don’t care anymore. Actually you danced around the subject. That is because there are definite “winners and losers” when picking race passives.
I noticed in the lists two races were absent. Why is that? Answer: The racials are imbalanced.
I noticed that kahjit is listed in all but one list? Why is that? Answer: The racials are imbalanced.
All classes are viable for anything? Is that why we have so many players playing bosmer or Redguard healers? If we don’t have a lot of bosmer healers, why? There are plenty of bosmer healer npcs. The race is not incapable or anti healing. So how come they are not so prevalent with players? Answer: The racials are imbalanced and ill thought out.
Claiming something is “viable” is a weak and vague term. It’s the equivalent of saying “I got a passing grade” in school. I could have gotten top marks or I could have barely passed.
“It’s viable to hammer nails with a book or screwdriver.” Great. I guess actual hammers are overrated.
“It’s viable to walk the five miles to work everyday.” Great. I guess there is barely a difference in the commute between the guy walking and the guy in the car or on the bike.
Viable or “possible” is a low hurdle to cross over.
And this part…
“One of the quirks of ESO is that as the game's combat changes, different traits become more and less important to the meta, which means the "top three" shifts even without ZOS making direct changes to racial passives”
The people who do the combat changes and the people who did the racial passives are the same people. You know that right?
So the wide 5%+ disparity is not a “quirk”, it’s their design.
And we are not talking “meta” here. It’s simply turning on the racial passives. The design was not the product of something unforeseen or out of their control.
They designed (or at least in my impression “barely” designed) this disparity and basically planted a “we meant for some races to be only viable” flag on it and walked away.
Are we supposed to applaud them for their effort? Are we supposed to be ok with it?
Yeah let’s just end it here. Because the arguments that passing grade and best in role are “barely different” is going nowhere.3 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
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A pro race car driver is going to drive great even in an inferior car, but they will perform better if they are in a superior one.
A player "with sufficient practice and experience" is always going to perform better with one of the better races, than with a race that is not that great for the role.
A player with mediocre skills is always going to perform better with one of the better races, than with a race that is not that great for the role.
A player with bad skills is always going to perform better with one of the better races, than with a race that is not that great for the role.
And if the pro race car driver is trying to get 1st place against other pros, the superior car will matter. If he's just trying to get a lap under 5m, and he can get 3m with the inferior car and 2m with the superior one, it literally means nothing to drive the inferior one.
A player with mediocre or bad skills is always going to be mediocre or bad, even if they slavishly follow some 'content creator's' "perfect" build guide.
That "best" race is only "5% better" in the hands of a top player with 95%+ efficiency in their skill use. In the hands of a noob, it's nothing.
(disclaimer - I don't care about DPS, and I pick races for my characters based on their visuals or theme.)Edited by Kiralyn2000 on 27 February 2023 17:424 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the best race is not only (3-8%) better in the hands of a top player.
A mid tier or low skilled player will also see a performance increase by switching to a better performing race.3 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Look, I'm totally one of those people who will pick a race first (and then class, and then hairstyle, and then costume, and then birthsign, and then...). Their 'efficacy' in endgame is literally my last concern. I only have one character I play endgame content on - one who's not got one of the 'top 3' races for his role - and then every other character is specifically for storytelling.
I get it that some racials have buffs for specific areas. I don't personally see a problem with some races being naturally inclined for certain tasks. It feels like there are a lot of people here who are of two mindsets: "I can barely complete random normals on my Breton stamblade, but if only I had the Khajiit passives instead I could get Godslayer!" and "I only run Godslayers and will not allow anyone into my runs unless they are literally BiS in every possible way so get out of here with your non-Khajiit non-DK DPS!" Besides, class will have much more of an effect than race will (ask on the PTS forums about how they feel about class balance, which you can't change with a token). Even Mundus has a huge effect greater than a racial bonus, especially if you're in Divines gear.
Yes, having an 'appropriate' race is better than not. When all other things are equal, someone will parse higher with a Khajiit than with a Redguard. But this requires every other condition to be equal. Racials are essentially the lowest separation between characters, beneath class, skills, gear, mundus, food, etc. And really, if we're talking about 5% DPS, that's something that will have diminishing returns as a player gets less skilled. Simple math tells me that 5% of a 100k DPS parse brings it up to 105k. And if you're parsing 25k, race changing could bring you all the way up to... 26.25k. But there are also times that it doesn't hugely matter. Who cares if you got a Godslayer in 26.2 minutes versus in 27.9 minutes? Yes, if your group is managing a 30.2 minute run, then swapping races may push out that little bit of DPS to get under 30. But that's not the only thing to try - there are groups who can use non-meta races and get fast Godslayers, so that means anyone should be able to, right?
It sounds like some people are trying to claim that it's literally impossible to get a high-level complete without using 100% the meta race. And I don't think that's true. Granted, I'm not trial trifecta level, but I don't think it's a requirement that you need to play one of those 'top 3' races for those roles if you're good enough. But I can say that it's totally possible to get vKA HM where 6 of the 12 characters, including all four supports, are not one of the "top 3 races" from that video. Yes, the top parser had a meta race. They also didn't ever stop to res a single person during the fight, so that inflated their numbers compared to everyone else (they were also a fill from a much higher-level group, and they were also the only one in the top meta class, so it makes sense that they parsed highest). I'm sure it wasn't just the race that made the difference.
There's also the slippery slope version of this: Ok, lets assume that racials were balanced in a way that every race was in the top 3. Then this thread would be "My race pick is 3rd place, so I'm still unbalanced with respect to the 1st place! We should all just have the same race bonuses!" This also isn't assuming that ZOS never changes combat behind the scenes - remember that Dark Elves weren't nearly as favored before hybridization since they were hybrid before hybridization was cool. Redguards used to be StamDPS kings before some of the skill changes pushed them down the list. The Khajiit crit bonus got very important as crit got bigger, but then with the crit cap that was introduced, that actually makes Khajiit less useful in a well-stacked group that keeps everyone at crit cap with warhorns/Brittle/etc.
I'd also offer that the 'simple racial flavor' things could start showing their unbalance as well. Again, assuming racial bonuses were the same, I'd bet we'd start to see Swashbuckler Supreme runs asking everyone to raceswap to Argonian (you can go a hair faster before the first add pull and get out of Deluge faster with a faster swim speed). Planesbreakers may request all-Dunmer groups (there's a lot of lava and fire damage going on for Xalvakka). And then we'd end up with Orcs on the bottom of the list (who cares about an Inspiration boost when your crafter is already levelled up?) based on their non-combat passive only.
I see it as a reasonable thing to include. Do you want to min/max? Then pick a proper race (and hope the meta doesn't change). Do you want to roleplay? Then choose the race you want (but be aware that you may have to work harder than others if you want to take that character into high-level content). And again, in many fantasy worlds, there are just races built for some things better than others. And so many of those stories are about overcoming odds and doing it anyway.
However, I do still think they swapped the Bosmer and Khajiit passives. Bosmer are supposed to be stealthy, and Khajiit as the ones who can sniff out people stealthing around them makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't mind them just switching Bosmer detect to radius decrease and Khajiit vice versa.3 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the best race is not only (3-8%) better in the hands of a top player.
A mid tier or low skilled player will also see a performance increase by switching to a better performing race.
But to what effect? Will it actually make a routinely significant difference? I think that's the point that is typically made.4 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the best race is not only (3-8%) better in the hands of a top player.
A mid tier or low skilled player will also see a performance increase by switching to a better performing race.
But to what effect? Will it actually make a routinely significant difference? I think that's the point that is typically made.
I don’t know what you mean by significant. I listed the factual difference.
3-8% is a pretty big penalty just for wanting to play the race you prefer. The other MMOs I have played have either no combat enhancing racials at all, or the racials are literally a 1% difference.
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BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the best race is not only (3-8%) better in the hands of a top player.
A mid tier or low skilled player will also see a performance increase by switching to a better performing race.
But to what effect? Will it actually make a routinely significant difference? I think that's the point that is typically made.
Well it depends on what you call “routine”.
I have done trials that many would consider difficult, but mostly I just do dailies and light housing. Is that considered routine?
Would 5% make a difference for a player doing a solo normal arena? Is that considered routine?
Would 5% difference help a player doing a vet version of the more recent vet dungeons? Is that considered routine?
Would an extra 5% have saved a player in a PvP fight? Is that considered routine?
I kind of get the feeling reading this thread that every player doing something even remotely difficult is doing endgame material and should “know better” or “it’s on them” that they are using a “bad” race.
Like redguard and bosmer are only intended for “casual play” by design.
Because it seems like the posters here think that since all races can do overland content. All races are basically fine. And the 5% difference is only seen in this hidden netherworld of super high end point/time pushers.
But all of us have experienced deaths in this game when the boss or other player was close to death. Would an extra 5% have helped?Edited by BlueRaven on 27 February 2023 21:381 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the best race is not only (3-8%) better in the hands of a top player.
A mid tier or low skilled player will also see a performance increase by switching to a better performing race.
But to what effect? Will it actually make a routinely significant difference? I think that's the point that is typically made.
I don’t know what you mean by significant. I listed the factual difference.
3-8% is a pretty big penalty just for wanting to play the race you prefer. The other MMOs I have played have either no combat enhancing racials at all, or the racials are literally a 1% difference.
8% is the extreme side of it and applies to the 21M or trial conditions very similar to it. It doesn't translate in content the same way.
The reason why that steamer chose Khajiit as a favorite, and they state as much in the video, is because while Khajiit mathematically is behind Dunmer or Altmer on the 21M, in actual content outside of optimized trial groups the difference is much less.
Argonians are the only race that I can think with no damage modifying passives. All of the others do have them in some form.
Races like Khajiit and Bosmer close that gap in 4 person, solo, pvp, and trial groups that arent optimized to their full potential.
Bosmer, for example, get 2k max stam (Redguard, Bretons, and Nord also get 2k). At one point each 1k attribute translated to roughly 110 SD/WD. With the changes to light attack scaling and hybridization it seems a bit muddy now, but, I tested it yesterday. 1998 magicka translates to roughly 3.4% damage on the tooltips. In addition, the penetration from Bosmer gets them another 1.9% (500 pen = 1% damage). So anytime a Bosmer isnt in a trial group that optimized to the point that the bonus is wasted, that difference in the racial passives is smaller. Hence why people suggest that it matters most to score pushing groups. That and the 21M are where the difference in the racial passives are at their most.
Racial passives that focus on sustain are a bit of a waste in the current meta and IMO could afford to be looked at and adjusted/changed. Argonians got screwed. The rest really aren't as bad.0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The greatest imbalances are from a group pve dps perspective. In PvP, or while playing solo, the sustain racials have a bigger impact, and so do some of the tank racials.
Part of the problem is that the current racials are just outdated and are from pre hybridization and also pre CP 2.0 if I’m not mistaken.
You can’t have Dark elf, which is the ‘hybrid’ race, also be the best at stamina damage and also tied for best at magicka damage. And then all other races are basically just niche. Khajiit are like diet dark elves. They are also hybrid, but are better than all pure races except high elf.
There just needs to be better balance. Preferably less overall stats coming from racials.2 -
adyreonb14_ESO✭✭✭I'd say just remove the racial traits and let the race just be cosmetic and roleplay.1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I mean I get that some need to be reworked and I actually like the morph idea but doing away with them is counter to elder scrolls in just about every sense. Any race with any class can still crack 100k factually. Anyone worried about numbers beyond that and swapping races for meta are interested in high end content which the vast vast majority of the community doesn't care about. The only time I've seen people not accept someone into a group based on race is for trial achievements like trifectas and I'm in guilds that run hight level content. I've never been asked what race my blade is to get into a vas2 even. Additionally they typically worry more about class and skills then race, most people just choose one that is conducive at that level of play but I rarely see requirements. I certainly don't have one for my DD prog.5