Really annoyed with going second!

Disappearingone · January 2023

First of all I really enjoy ToT. That said I hate going second in play order. I believe you are at a huge strategic disadvantage to go second. One coin extra means that more than likely you're going to be sitting on five coin which is freaking worthless.

You either going to get four coin and two power or five coin and one power. Five coins are just shy of worthless.

And since you're going second odds are any good card worth coin that was turned up in the tavern has been taken or will be sabotaged by the person going first.

If you go first you have a strategic advantage allowing you to not only have first crack at whatever is turned over in the tavern but also sabotage the player after. This in itself is kind of the heart of tot strategy. But at the beginning of the game it your ability to completely handicap your opponent is unbalanced.

Here is an example and the reason I'm freaking here writing this post.

The other player gets to go first the patrons are: green, black, red and purple.

The person going first has two power The versatile green card and two coin cards

I'm sitting on a red and four coins. So, 5 coin and one power.

There's a one four coin Duke card, an armory, a shield bearer, the treasury car that allows you to get rid of a card and I forget what else.

The person going first taps Green, uses the tavern card to get rid of the Duke of crows card and into turn.

All I can with my five coins and one power is tap Treasury. But see the person going first knows that all his power cards are in the cooldown which means all five of his next cards will be coin. So on his next round he gets armory.... Overcoming an armory that early in the game is unlikely. Before I even will see six coin will be around four or five.. by that time he will have a power lead of probably in the range of 15 points or so.

This is one time out of many that this sort of thing happens I have done it other players and other players do it to me but it is very frustrating going second.

For going second you need to either get one extra coin and one power which will allow you to tap a patron or maybe give us a free reshuffle of the tavern cards.

I enjoy this game but it's about 40% or so RNG sometimes you can be screwed right out of the gate and you usually know it by about round three.

I said I like this game but it's really starting to grate on me.

rbfrgsp · January 2023

Sometimes, everything falls right and your six gold on the first turn provides a massive advantage. But it's rare.

Personally, I think a fairer balance would be if the second player gets no bonus gold, but starts with an additional Barter card in their hand. That gives you a way to wipe a card from the tavern and potentially access a fresh card that player one had no access to.

Disappearingone · January 2023

Yes, on a rare occasion you can get six gold. But even when that happens they're probably isn't anything in the tavern that you want to spend those six gold on. If you're lucky they'll be a barterer or a Black sacrament or some other two gold that won't add too much bloat (portcullis) that will allow you to hopefully turn over a four coin card that is useful.

But even if player 2 started the game with a barterer card in hand, which I don't think is a bad idea, I still don't think it outweighs the advantage that player 1 has.

Think of it this way: player one has basically 5 barterers. Being the first player to have access to the tavern in itself is super powerful. It allows you even with three coin and two power to to set the pace and undermine most plays for your opponent for the next two or three rounds at least.

Generally, unless you are strictly going after druid King you want a few cards in your hand as possible. We all have know that generally speaking there are three or four cards in the tavern nobody wants to take, take until late game or can't afford to take etc. Meaning that odds are your six coin are going to get turned into four and one writ and then you're going to end your turn sitting on four coin

I know this isn't always the case this is an RNG issue and sometimes the stars align but I am 100% sure that the odds of you winning the game are higher than when you play second by a good margin

WitchyKiki · January 2023

Every time I go second, I never have 6 gold. Unless we are playing pure money. Just the law of the world.

Necrotech_Master · January 2023

the 2nd player will always have 6 gold on the starting turn guaranteed if there is no pelin or reach deck in play, as all of the other starter cards give coin (or have the option to get coin in case of hunding)

i personally always prefer going 2nd, because then i can buy a 4 cost card from the tavern + convert a coin to a writ, instead of likely only converting a coin to a writ and not being able to buy anything (though if there is a good card in the tavern i will usually buy that over converting a coin to a writ if i cant do both in the same turn)

Grandma · January 2023

I had a game yesterday where the opening tavern was

1. destroy 1 tavern card
2. scratch
3. pools of shadows
4. ansei summoning ( the 2 refresh or 1 5 cos card)
5. midnight

and i was going turn 2.
yeah i was pissed. only reason i won was because they were a new player who didnt realize how to abuse this. they went ansei and then left scratch and pools for 2 turns so i could grab both, and then let me get 3 more crow cards uncontested. the only way you can win with opening taverns like that is your enemy throwing tbh.