SilverIce58 wrote: »

Every time I read a post like this, I remember the post on Reddit titled "ZOS hates Bretons" and after this whole year with the writing and lack of interest in Bretons, it still feels true.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

BlissfulDeluge wrote: »

This is so infuriating to me, because it has never felt more true. I wanted to believe that ZOS and their writing team could do the Bretons justice, but this year has demonstrated that they really have no respect for the Bretons' lore, in my opinion.

I feel you, and I get it. I feel the same way about a lot of it.

I want to try and engage this discussion because this topic is close to my heart and I love discussing this stuff with you guys. I'll try very hard not to do it in a way that's disparaging to the writers. I honestly think they're doing their best, and they're passionate folk. I also think there's evidence that they try to take on board the thoughts of the community wherever there is room to do so. If I fail on this, I hope I can be forgiven.

I think part of the problem is everyone's hopes were up. Because "Legacy of the Bretons" was announced by addressing the lore community with a big "we hear ya!" The big pain points for the lore community in regards to Breton lore is that the base game seems to have run rough-shod over established lore, at best ignoring a lot of the nuance, at worst rendering a world that it was incompatible with. It did nothing to relieve the broader opinion in the community that "Bretons are boring." And worse still, it seems to have given more interesting aspects to others, like the Imperials. When Leamon said that this was the chapter for anyone who thought Bretons were boring, we thought that the problems we'd described, the lore we said had been ignored, was going to be addressed. I don't believe that the chapter managed to achieve that.

As I've expressed before, I think that shining some light on the Druids of Galen was an excellent idea. My problem is that the concept and story of who they are just reads as really really awkward. I played through the content with my partner, paid very close attention to everything we could find, read all the lorebooks, talked to the NPCs, and I still really don't get a good sense of who they are, and exactly how they relate to the Legacy of the Bretons, except for in the most nebulous, kinda-sorta, non-committal terms. I've read the fantastic article on UESP and honestly just came out more confused.

It honestly feels to me like the concept was committed to, but then as inconsistencies later became apparent it was back-tracked, convoluted, forced, and finally explained away by unreliable narration.

What exacerbates that, for me, is when, for example, you get the Graven Deep story, which doesn't feel like it has anything to do with the Druids at all. The story has been come up with, and connecting it into the framework of the year-long arc is just tacked on. It doesn't further the story in any meaningful way. It doesn't feel coherent or strongly integrated. Zelvarak is just a necromancer in a sunken dwarven ruin which doesn't seem to have anything to do with Druids or Galen, except for one or two lorebooks which feel like they're there to force a connection. Which highlights a problem with the Year-Long format: if you have to force "Druids of Galen" into something which is essentially its own story, with its own feel, and nothing really connecting it, why are we doing it?

So The Druids feel pretty much tangential to the Breton story. They may or may not be central to the Nedic aspects of Breton heritage, they may or may not define what was distinct about those Nedes who would later become Breton. The other aspects of Breton identity are not really touched on, but nothing to really lift them out of mundanity. I don't think that The Legacy of the Bretons has revolutionised how people think about Bretons.

I think that there's not enough writing space to do them justice or to properly undo the base-game boringness, though that's the impression we all got from the announcements. We should have been told to temper our expectations, perhaps- but that doesn't sell copies! I don't know if there could have been room for much of it- arguably, compared to, say, Elsweyr, which seemed to do a pretty comprehensive job for the Khajiit. I also think that having to tell a Breton story outside of the Breton Urheimat, which, when Tamriel is the main character, and High Rock is such a core part of the identity of the Bretons, is bound to make things harder to work with.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

What exacerbates that, for me, is when, for example, you get the Graven Deep story, which doesn't feel like it has anything to do with the Druids at all. The story has been come up with, and connecting it into the framework of the year-long arc is just tacked on. It doesn't further the story in any meaningful way. It doesn't feel coherent or strongly integrated. Zelvarak is just a necromancer in a sunken dwarven ruin which doesn't seem to have anything to do with Druids or Galen, except for one or two lorebooks which feel like they're there to force a connection. Which highlights a problem with the Year-Long format: if you have to force "Druids of Galen" into something which is essentially its own story, with its own feel, and nothing really connecting it, why are we doing it?

the Bretons ... are significantly more intriguing than people have been led to believe. Their society is a Thronesian one, where abrasiveness is eschewed for subterfuge and petty political squabbles are quickly elevated to full-fledged coups d’état.

There’s the whole neo-feudalism side of it, but there’s also the magical side of it. One of the things that often gets lost in the shuffle is that Bretons are one of the most magically adept races in Tamriel, from the king all the way down to the serfs... “Every Breton can boast some resistance to magic and some basic aptitude for learning it if given the opportunity. I mean, some of the greatest mages in Tamrielic history were Breton. Another aspect of society that we’re dealing with is Druidism. Early on in the Elder Scrolls releases, there was a reference to the Druids of Galen. It was kind of dropped and never really talked about that much. But we’re really getting into the history of the Bretons in terms of their relationship with the Direnni elves and how that all started, these basic kinds of early religion aspects with druids.”

BlissfulDeluge wrote: »

Introduction:
I played the content on the PTS before finishing it in the official release, but as most players have not yet played the content, I will avoid unreleased story spoilers. This thread is intended for discussing what the year did for the Bretons. I will source all of my own claims, and encourage everyone else to bring up their own thoughts as well. If I missed something, do let me know.

Following up on another thread I wrote, ‘High Isle - What Did it Do for the Bretons?’, I want to do a retrospective and full breakdown on what the Legacy of the Bretons did for the Bretons themselves. Mind that I am going to be thorough (like seven A4 pages), listing both what it accomplished and failed to do, including areas where I think it should have done more. Scroll down to the Closing Thoughts section if you just want the single-page TL;DR. As with the other thread, here is how the Bretons are described:

TES1’s Breton Description:
“Thy race is descended from the ancient Druids of Galen, quick witted and strong in the mystical arts. Thy folks are crafty and intelligent, a learned people who use their gifts to guide others to enlightenment…”

TES2’s Breton Description:
"Bretons hail from the province of High Rock. You are part of a tall, fair-skinned people, highly intelligent and willful. Magic seems to infuse the very being of the Breton people. As a race, they are more resistant to the effects of hostile magic than any other group, and thus are excellent in all arcane arts."

TES3’s Breton Description and In-Game Dialogue:
"Passionate and eccentric, poetic and flamboyant, intelligent and willful, Bretons feel an inborn, instinctive bond with the mercurial forces of magic and the supernatural. Many great sorcerers have come from their home province of High Rock, and in addition to their quick and perceptive grasp of spellcraft, enchantment, and alchemy, even the humblest of Bretons can boast a high resistance to destructive and dominating magical energies."

ESO’s pre-release Breton Description:
“The men and women of High Rock were once ruled by High Elf overlords. Some Elven blood still runs in their veins, giving Bretons an innate grasp of magic that distinguishes them from the other human races. Passionate and flamboyant, intelligent and resourceful, the Bretons are renowned and talented craftsmen, shrewd merchants, gallant cavaliers, and inventive wizards. They can also be proud and quarrelsome. Tales of warfare between the kingdoms of High Rock account for much of their history, but most revere the Eight Divines and value prosperity over glory.”

TES5’s Anton Virane:
“You think politics here are something? Well, we Bretons invented politics.”

Excerpt from ‘The Bretons: Mongrels or Paragons?’:
“The passionate race of Bretons embodies the strengths of both Men and Mer—as well as their flaws.”

Excerpt from ‘Orcs? Could Be Worse’:
“And if there's one thing Bretons know how to do, it's make money. Well, it's not the only thing we do, but you get the idea.”

ESO’s Breton Motif:
“How is this reflected in their arts and crafts? Let's look at Breton armor, for example. The gleaming heavy armor of a Breton knight is as tough and practical as that of a Nord housecarl, but its pleasing form exhibits a subtle sophistication that is reminiscent of Elven elegance. One sees the same influence in Breton weaponry, which is beautiful yet undeniably deadly.”

These descriptions speak of a race known to be intellectual, inventive, magically talented, mercantile, and resourceful. A politically savvy race that compromises the best of Elven and human influences to find a middle ground between both, or even make something entirely new and unique. Sounds pretty cool and interesting, right?

So what did Legacy of the Bretons (LotB) do for the Bretons?

What LotB Did for the Bretons:
LotB undid Greymoor’s Antiquities’ blunder claiming all Breton nobles reject their Elven heritage by giving us Count Damard Dufort, a Breton noble who openly embraces his ancestry.

LotB added explicit in-game statements that all Bretons have at least some magical talent.

LotB gave Bretons lorebooks arguing in favor of their Elven blood’s prominence, casting doubt on whether they are “just another human race.”

LotB justified the Bretons’ descriptions as flamboyant, passionate and eccentric by showing us individuals such as Sir Coliinean Maurard, Langley, Valentyn Dantaine, and Moric Guidroz.

LotB reaffirmed the base game’s Breton representation by showing that one can openly disparage the ruling class without legal consequence.

LotB reaffirmed the base game’s Breton representation by showing that criminal convictions in Breton lands require incriminating evidence, reinforcing that Bretons respect due process.

LotB finally gave Bretons their own unique dungeon tileset.

LotB gave Bretons multicultural influences with the Swedish key harp.

LotB made the Bretonic House Dufort the premier shipbuilders in Tamriel. Though it would have been neat to see the ships be outfitted with late medieval cannons, since cannons were mentioned in TES2 and because the Altmer got full-fledged clocks while the intelligent Bretons measure time with pitiful bucket sundials.

LotB gave Bretons Duchess Martine Guimard, whose shrewdness made the University of Gwylim describe her as the canniest ruler of her day.

LotB reaffirmed the base game’s lore that the Wyrd are Bretons, reemphasizing the distinction between Reachmen and Wyrd.

LotB revitalized the Bretonic moon names Mara’s Tear and Shandar’s Sorrow from TES2.

LotB reaffirmed the base game’s and PGE’s lore by showing that anyone can become nobility via upward mobility in Breton lands.

LotB reaffirmed the base game’s lore on the Bretons’ questing culture.

LotB covered unique knightly orders with different customs and de facto interpretations of chivalry that deviate from traditional depictions.

LotB showed us how squires can become knights at their knight masters’ whims, and explored knightly customs.

LotB introduced Lady Arabelle Davaux, and thankfully did not outright confirm or deny whether she actually was Investigator Vale.

LotB explored the Bretons' noble hierarchy.

LotB explored how ]the Breton nobility profiteer from circumstances.

LotB gave Bretons jousting.

LotB reaffirmed the base game’s Breton representation by showing that marriage between different classes in Breton society is taboo.

LotB reaffirmed the base game’s Breton representation by showing how prevalent scheming is in Breton society. Though in my opinion, none of the quests were on the same level as or better than swineherds accusing inn owners of pig theft in the base game.

LotB did a deep dive into the Breton subculture known as the Druids of Galen, and the Bretons’ cult worship of Y’ffre. That said, while historical druidism is great, I think they should have integrated contemporary druidism directly into the majority city Bretons’ culture instead of making druids a separate culture that rejects civilization as the Wyrd do, whom they are so similar to as to be arguably obsolete. More on that in the Closing Thoughts.

LotB gave the Bretons incest lore in the Q2 Loremaster Q&A, disregarding earlier mentions of a Law of Consanguinity. Now, maybe it is a little harsh to expect the loremaster to know every little obscure bit of lore, but at best, this was a ridiculous question to answer in an otherwise disappointing Q&A. At worst, it applied an IRL cultural stereotype to a fantasy race for laughs. Imagine if they had added IRL cultural stereotypes to the other races.

What LotB Failed to Do for the Bretons:
LotB failed to deliver the Bretons’ unique perspective on the conflict between Men and Mer that @ZOS_LeamonTuttle explicitly promised us in the 2022 global reveal. If Wyrd and Druid was supposed to be the Bretons’ unique perspective, then that is only the druids’ beliefs accounted for, since the writers decided to make the druids an entirely different culture that rejects civilization and does not speak for the majority of Bretons. LotB also failed to explore the Bretons’ creation myth of The Light and the Dark, and their worship of Phynaster, Sheor, and Magnus. The Deadlands DLC touched on the Bretons’ worship of Magnus, and the base game briefly touched on Sheor, but we still have no clue how he became the Bad Man in Bretonic theology beyond a throwaway line, whereas early Nedic sculptures show him embracing an Elven Mara.

LotB failed to explore the history of knighthood and the relationship between Breton knights and Altmeri knights, Dunmeri knights, Imperial knights, and Redguard knights. Instead of perhaps exploring how the Bretons inspired these races to make knightly orders of their own, it remains a shared concept that is not even Bretonic in origin. The Welkynars’ lore claims that their knightly order spans nearly all of Summerset’s history, while Sir Cadwell who lived in the Merethic Era calls himself a “knight of Cyrod”, implying that knighthood originated either in Cyrodiil or Summerset. This means knighthood and knightly orders are not the “Legacy of the Bretons,” but rather the legacy of the Altmer and Imperials. LotB could have had Cadwell originally be from High Rock and had him travel to Cyrodiil, becoming the “knight of Cyrod” by aiding the Nedes against the Ayleids prior to joining Khunzar-ri in Elsweyr, and then had every other knightly order be inspired by and formed after the First Era knightly orders of High Rock, but it did not.

LotB failed to explore the class divisions and inequalities of the Bretons’ feudalism below the nobility, ignoring the lore stating that their feudal system had heavy class distinctions below the aristocracy. Because both Altmer and Imperials practice serfdom and monarchism, not even generic feudalism is unique to the Bretons, nevermind that writing Breton society off as archetypical feudalism with upward mobility ignores previously established lore, such as how serfs in Breton lands are free to travel and quest, unlike historical serfs who were bound to their lords’ land, and the fact that we see private citizens owning property and land in High Rock. Even the supposedly unique upward mobility does not make the Bretons stand out, as upward mobility exists both in Morrowind with meritocratic great house ranks and in Skyrim with thanedoms. Beyond this there is virtually nothing separating the classes below the nobility in Breton society besides the obvious wealth measuring stick found everywhere else. LotB could have taken the lore saying the Bretons’ feudalism is nearly the same as the Direnni’s, and explored how they improved on that system’s rights and privileges by granting different rights to the different classes of society based on how much they contribute in taxation, thereby making serfs a social class without rights and adding unique stratification encouraging upward mobility, but it did not.

LotB failed to do the Bretons’ descriptions as intelligent justice. It included zero magical advancements made by the Bretons, and no influential or powerful Breton sorcerers comparable to Vanus Galerion, Iachesis, Shalidor, or Divayth Fyr. It is tragic that Bretons have zero legendary or famous mages when they are regarded as one of the most magically inclined races, and no contributions to the advancement of magic when they are described as inventive mages and intelligent. LotB could have reintroduced Gyron Vardengroet or made Azra Nightwielder a Breton, but it did not. LotB could have added lore on how the Bretons built the Battlespire or what different spells and enchantments they have created and popularized, but it did not. The Bretons also got no philosophy this year, whereas Orcs got Sayings of the Wise as well as sayings about shields, and Redguards got the Book of Circles. LotB could have explored how the Bretons justify their scheming by integrating their justifications as a philosophy, but it did not. There was not a single respected Breton academy, university, research institute, or school present in LotB, whereas Altmer have gotten the Illumination Academy and College of Sapiarchs, Imperials have gotten the Arcane University and University of Gwylim (with its Antiquarian Circle), Dunmer have gotten Shad Astula, and Nords have gotten the Coterie of Organized Scholars, Bards College, and College of Winterhold. LotB could have illustrated the Bretons’ intelligence by giving them the Rights Charter, which could serve to explain why serfs are free and why they respect due process and upward mobility, as well as why they tolerate disparagement of the ruling class and benign Daedric cults like the Spirit Wardens and Weylin’s cult, but it did not.

LotB failed to build on the Bretons’ claims that they “invented politics,” such as by exploring how they used politicking to resist the Alessians and the Direnni until they could overthrow them. LotB also failed to make the Bretons’ politics and scheming out to be any more complex than the house politics of Morrowind or the scheming of Imperials, who have a literal song about deception. Instead of exploring how the Bretons influenced the Empire politically, LotB reduced them to being Imperial lapdogs and laborers working for Colovian engineers. LotB could have added lore on foreign politicians like the Tharns having traveled to High Rock to learn how to use politics, which would have mirrored Third Era lore where Hlaalu Helseth was brought up with court intrigue in Wayrest before becoming the king of Mournhold, but it did not. LotB could have had Lord Bacaro Volorus be a Breton of the Empire-affiliated Motierres, but it did not.

LotB failed to make all Bretons regard themselves as Manmer, instead making it an exclusively druidic custom.

LotB failed to explore the Bretons’ modern relationship with the Direnni, and failed to provide the Direnni’s account on their own downfall and on the druids.

LotB failed to illustrate the Bretons’ magical resistance. At no point did we see any Bretons shrugging off powerful spells, or even see it referenced as in the base game. LotB also failed to explore Breton lifespans and their aging process, which should have been done to explain the quote, “Only half Elven, he aged like a Breton.” If it had said “aged like a human.” this would not matter. However it specifies the Breton race, indicating that Bretons and half-Elven offspring age differently from purely human races, whether for better or for worse.

LotB failed to have Tales of Tribute be made by any Bretons. I appreciate diversity in TESO, but it is ridiculous that a game made in a Breton land as part of a supposedly Breton-focused was actually made by an Altmer, a Bosmer, a Nord, an Orc, a Redguard, and not a single Breton,. Imagine if they had written a story called “The Redguard Heritage” where the renowned swordmasters rediscovering and teaching us the Yokudan Ansei traditions are an Altmer, an Imperial, an Argonian, and a Khajiit, and all the Redguards get painted as incompetent novices. The Q4 DLC included a Breton Tribute Master, but this comes across as tokenism when none of the game’s original creators are Bretons.

Closing Thoughts:
Do I think that the Legacy of the Bretons has redeemed the Bretons, or that it was better than the base game? No, and I cannot consider it a step in the right direction. I think it was good for reaffirming some of what we already know, but that the writers were more interested in exploring Imperials, Maormer, and contemporary druids than actually doing a deep dive into the Bretons as they claimed they would. While historical druidism is great and tells us about the Bretons’ past, contemporary druids are so similar to the Wyrd (and Bosmer) in terms of culture, religion, and overall theme as to be rendered obsolete. Even the druids’ architecture is stylistically similar to that of the Wyrd, which begs the question if the writers were only interested in rewriting Wyrd covens from the ground up. Furthermore, contemporary druidism was not made to have any bearing on the vast majority of Bretons in ESO’s time. This means contemporary druidism not only fails to give the Bretons anything unique and takes away resources which could be spent expanding on the city Breton majority, but also detracts from the uniqueness of the Bosmer and Wyrd’s culture (though Bosmer thankfully still retain some unique qualities).

So what could have been done better? I think the writers should have replaced the druids with Wyrd as "keepers of the old ways" and made druidism exclusively historical, then focused on exploring unique Breton customs, culture and religion influenced by both their druidic past and their time under Altmeri and Imperial colonialism. I think the idea of blending druidic and civilized Breton culture is incredibly cool (like giving them armor similar to Wayward Guardian and Black Fin Legion that mixes medieval/renaissance plate armor with natural ornaments), and that the writers should have integrated druidism directly into the city Breton majority’s culture, and given them their due with intellectualism, magical accomplishments, influential mages, a uniquely stratified feudal system as was described in the base game, and the political history and influence on the Empire that would give them grounds to brag that they “invented politics.”

We were promised a deep dive into Breton culture, but ZOS has seemingly decided to renege on that promise, as they barely expanded on the city Breton majority and wrongfully brushed their society off as regular feudalism with upward mobility so they could do a deep dive into a small Breton subculture that doesn’t even exist in High Rock. Will Druidism return to the mainland? There are implications it will, but again, contemporary druidism is irrelevant to the city Breton majority in ESO’s time, and it will apparently stay that way until some point in the late Third Era (TES1’s setting). Unless ZOS plans to make ESO 2 or BGS plans to explore the Iliac Bay in TES6, I can only consider its inclusion a redundant decision. Again, historical druidism is fine, but contemporary druids were made obsolete from the offset.

LotB has done nothing to make the Bretons stand out, as nearly all their cultural qualities are shared with other races. Their class divisions below the nobility were ignored, their intellectualism was cast aside, their religious lore was thrown in the trash, they were scarcely shown to be the political masterminds of Tamriel, contemporary druidism was made irrelevant to their mainstream culture, they were given zero historically influential or legendary mages to boast of, and they were given zero contributions to the advancement of magic. Their magical talent is inherited from the Altmer, Altmer also have due process, both Altmer and Imperials practice feudalism, upward mobility exists both in Morrowind and in Skyrim, Dunmer also have a subculture that rejects the mainstream civilization, knighthood is not a Breton concept, and other races are known for house politics and scheming. All of the Bretons’ unique qualities existed prior to this year, including their magical resistance (which is rarely acknowledged, never explained, and never shown), their questing culture (which feels inconsequential because a staple of TES is adventuring and questing), and their mixed human and Elven ancestry (but again, it doesn’t affect them beyond having the same magical foundation as other Elven races have, while also having no magical advancements, famous mages, or unique customs to show for it).

ZOS said they would prove that Bretons were interesting, claiming that those who wanted more Breton lore would not be disappointed. As someone who was hyped for this year and wanted to see the Bretons get some much-needed love, I am immensely disappointed, and think the only thing ZOS has proven is that their writers have no regard for the Bretons’ lore, and are either unwilling or unable to expand on them and make them interesting. They have frankly homogenized the Bretons with Imperials to the point where they might as well merge the two and make them into an Imperial subrace, like Colovians and Nibenese.

The irony revealed by the so-called "Legacy of the Bretons" is that the Bretons really have no legacy to call their own, as ZOS has applied nearly all their unique qualities to other races, ultimately making them feel as boring and generic as they are reputed to be. While the medieval aesthetic itself is thematically Breton and arguably unique in TES, the writers’ insistence on only relying on Medieval cultural influences this year was a disservice that not only ignored previously established lore, but also failed to make the Breton majority stand out, because as already noted those influences are also found in other parts of Tamriel. ZOS could potentially address the criticisms brought up here in future lorebooks or in the Western Reach’s Jehanna, but as they failed to expand on the Breton majority to make it stand out in a year they claimed would prove they were not boring, I have lost all confidence in the game’s writing team, and will cut my ESO expenditures accordingly until they take the time to give them a deep dive like they promised they would. This is not a quitting thread, as I will continue playing on the off-chance that they actually listen, but I have no confidence they will.

But what are other people’s thoughts on what this year has done for the Bretons? Am I alone in this sentiment?

• The 'peace treaty on a land well known as the start of the All-Flags navy' plot was already used for the Main Quest, with the advantage there that Stirk is actually neutral whereas High Isle is definitively Breton
• We only got two of the three leaders, and the third got "he was with a woman" as an excuse reason. No way any of the other leaders would have gone if that were the case, and no way Jorunn, even if he were an idiot, would pass it up. If they couldn't get the VA, they could have made a better reason (like "he caught the Knahaten flu")
• Once again, Queen Ayrenn was shown to be the only reasonable leader, which made Emeric into an obstinate bull. I'm still waiting for the storyline where any of her character flaws (which are usually not even shown...) end up creating conflict—or even consequences—for her. Otherwise, it ended up that the Bretons got upstaged in their own chapter.