Limit card combos to once per turn

SilverBride · November 2022

One of the things that really ruins the experience for me are games where my opponent creates long combos that continue drawing cards for their entire turn. If a player has pared their deck down far enough it is possible to keep drawing the same Crow cards over and over in a single turn. I would like to see these cards restricted to the combo effect only activating once per turn to prevent this. This would make for a much more competitive game in my opinion.

Necrotech_Master · November 2022

technically speaking each card is only activating once

if you have 4 different cards that say have the effect to draw, your processing each effect separately

if you say limit the card draw effect to only happen once per turn, you would literally destroy the entire point of the crow deck

it just sounds to me that you basically want the entire crow deck removed (as this is the only one that that really can create huge card draw combos)

SilverBride · November 2022

Not removed, just tweaked. And something is happening when multiple cards continue to be drawn even after the combo effect has already been activated. If these additional cards aren't being generated by combos reactivating when the cards are played again then where are they coming from?

If the Crow cards aren't contributing to more combos when these same cards are played again in the same turn, then how are they able to keep drawing multiple cards repeatedly?

Necrotech_Master · November 2022

the player has all the cards in their deck

they dont even have to "generate" cards like some of the druid ones do

if you had a deck full of pilfers that do nothing but let you draw cards, your not creating any new cards just drawing through your deck (you will eventually run out of a deck as everything goes into your "discard" pile instead of the cooldown, when you end your turn all of those are put in the cooldown, and then it would reshuffle your deck)

so a long crow combo isnt "generating" cards, the player would have had to buy them from the tavern

i think if you picture, 2 pilfer cards, with base of draw 1 and then a combo 2 of draw 1, you play card 1 and draw 1, you play card 2 and draw 1, and then it draws 2 more for the combo effect of both cards, but your still just drawing existing cards from your own deck, not generating anything new

crows only becomes a problem against you when the opponent starts amassing the crow cards to be able to continue drawing (as some of the other crow cards also generate coin/power in addition to drawing cards)

using rahjin bewilders or other rahjin/crow cards that force the opponent to discard cards is a good way to counter a crow combo

SilverBride · November 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the player has all the cards in their deck

they dont even have to "generate" cards like some of the druid ones do...

...so a long crow combo isnt "generating" cards, the player would have had to buy them from the tavern...

I edited my post to clarify. Generating was a poor choice of words to use on my part. What I should have said was "If the Crow cards aren't contributing to more combos when these same cards are played again in the same turn, then how are they able to keep drawing multiple cards repeatedly?"

Necrotech_Master · November 2022

even if their deck is reshuffled, it does not shuffle in the cards that are in the "used/discard" pile (deck shuffling only uses what is in the cooldown pile, not the used/discard pile)

so even if they had all of the crow cards, they couldnt use more than 4 pilfers (for example) in a single turn as that is the max that exists with the crow deck

they still would eventually run out of cards in their deck and be forced to end their turn

now the amount of power/coin that was generated from being able to draw could potentially be huge

ive had those kind of crow combos where ive drawn my deck, shuffled in my cooldown, kept drawing, and eventually ran out of cards to play, or coin to buy more from the tavern

so with the way the game works, the same exact card can never be played more than once per turn (so if you played 1 pilfer, that pilfer will basically not be useable again until it gets in your cooldown pile to be reshuffled)

pilfer is the best example because it allows you to draw up to 2 cards for 1 play, as long as you have played another crow card in that same turn

when you add up all the crow cards that can draw, thats like 2/3 of the entire deck (including the contract cards that allow you to draw more too)

SilverBride · November 2022

Well something needs to be tweaked because this has turned into a deal breaker for me, and others have also mentioned how much this frustrates them, too.

Someone in this thread mentioned he counted 150+ combos played in one turn. This should not be possible.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/622601/pvp-150-combos-per-turn#latest

Lunatearz · November 2022

you can only play a card once per turn if you have two of the same cards then yes you play them twice if it happens so. but you do need to have two cards that are the same and you play each only once

SilverBride · November 2022

Then how do players end up with so many combos and card draws? It would not be possible to get 150 combos in one hand unless the deck was shuffling and drawing the same cards that then made another combo the next time it was played.

Lunatearz · November 2022

i dunno man lol maybe they high lol

Necrotech_Master · November 2022

im pretty sure 150+ combos in 1 turn is kind of a lucky outlier

druid king in particular i think is unusual how it decides a "combo" because many of the cards have a secondary effect that triggers passively, usually when adding cards to your cooldown (such as when buying) or when other things are activated like agents, and im not 100% sure cause i havent paid attention if these effects show up in the combo list

that other thread does not describe what kind of cards were in the combos, but any card that has say up to a combo 4 could show in the combo list 3x (for the combo 2, combo 3, and combo 4 effects)

jaws343 · November 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Then how do players end up with so many combos and card draws? It would not be possible to get 150 combos in one hand unless the deck was shuffling and drawing the same cards that then made another combo the next time it was played.

Because they build out their decks really well.

But also, as was mentioned in that other thread, combos often happen passively. And especially with the Druid deck, you get a ton of combos.

There are cards in the druid deck that have 5 combo actions and cards in Rajihn that have more than that. So, just playing 2-3 of them already generates you 15+ combos. Druid deck plays fast with combos, including passive ones, like gaining gold/power when things are played by your opponent or yourself or discarded.

A good example is the druid card that gives you gold when something goes into your discard. Every time you buy a card, something goes into your discard and you activate the combo. Have more than one of these, or buy cheap cards, you activate combos.

jaws343 · November 2022

Legitimately, maybe you need to play against the novice NPC a bit to learn how the combos play out. You can successfully practice things like massive crow combos, without time limits and without worrying about the NPC really doing anything to foil what you are doing.

Just do that, and you can see how you are incorrect that you can replay cards on the same turn.

At best, you can play cards you just purchased, but that requires you deck shuffling through (which doesn't shuffle in anything in your cooldown) or requires you to use a power or combo to pull something from your discard back to the top of the deck.

Often, what you think are duplicate cards, are just players using their decks properly, like using Psijic cards to discard non crow cards from the top of their deck.

For example, if I have a card that lets me discard 4, and I have a crow card that lets me draw a card. I play the discard first, then I remove anything from the top of my deck that isn't going to combo with the crow card. Then I play the crow card, draw the next card I setup, which is often a crow card, and then play that and likely draw another card due to the second cards combo.

SilverBride · November 2022

Well watching an opponent draw card after card with the constant "bump" sound is the biggest thing that drove me away from playing other players. A few combos is fine but I will not sit and watch this go on for an entire 90 second turn. This is why I only play NPCs now.

Stinkyremy · November 2022

Only thing that needs to be changed is when a new card is drawn, we as the player should still be able to move and play other cards because the massive combos and with the timer, you don't have enough time to play everything.
Too many times with crow and druid agents I have been running out of time because of massive combo pops.
It's unfair because I am only limited by the in game cooldown/animation of the cards proccing, not by my lack or ability to play fast.

I have had it before with the black king deck, druid and crow, I managed to thin my deck down to only agents and draw cards where I seemingly had an infinite loot of redrawing crow cards that redraw crow cards. i ran out of time.
I guess this type of thing is what OP is unhappy about.
Still it is a part of the game, you can counter it by not allowing it to happen by buying and discarding crows, draw cards and the blue cooldown sorting cards yourself.
Though as well all know, it is RNG as some times you just get a bad deal.

jaws343 · November 2022

Stinkyremy wrote: »

Only thing that needs to be changed is when a new card is drawn, we as the player should still be able to move and play other cards because the massive combos and with the timer, you don't have enough time to play everything.
Too many times with crow and druid agents I have been running out of time because of massive combo pops.
It's unfair because I am only limited by the in game cooldown/animation of the cards proccing, not by my lack or ability to play fast.

Absolutely. Every card draw or purchase, should add like 2 seconds to the timer. I've timed out of winning rounds due to the timer.

SilverBride · November 2022

It's bad enough as it is without giving players even more time to play even more combos. If they do this there will be even less players in the queues then there is now.

Necrotech_Master · November 2022

one of the reasons why i dont participate in the queue is because of the turn time limit lol, generally speaking i dont ever need that much time to take my turn, but the fact that its there is annoying, i hate being timed on things

im going to have to at some point just to finish the tribute achievements, because i have basically all of the tribute stuff done now except for 3 RNG clues, and the pvp achievements

spartaxoxo · November 2022

A good way to stop these combos is to buy up the crows from your opponent. If they would clog up your preferred strategy, get rid of them using Hlallu (sacrifice to patron), Eagle (buy and destroy), or Druid King (clear using patron power).

Sometimes, your opponent is just gonna have great luck and win regardless, but you'd be surprised how much you can cripple this strategy just taking some cards for yourself.

Crow deck needs these long combos because it does NOT generate power or coins in large quantities when not combo'ed. It's not like say Pelin or Orgnum, where it's generating a lot throughout the match. Instead it slowly builds to a large burst. It would have to be entirely reworked because Crow is not competitive with other decks without its combos.

SilverBride · November 2022

I just don't play other players any more and won't unless some of this is fixed. It just isn't enjoyable any more the way things are.

spartaxoxo · November 2022

I like Crows personally. I usually beat the people who rely on them, and I feel like it's a more strategic deck than say Pelin.

But I feel that way about Druid and Rahjiin's bewilderment spam, so I get why some decks are just unfun to play against. For me, Bewilderment and the Druid agents are the most unfun thing to play against. I leave a lot of Rahjiin matches.