Speculation Is Banned?

kind_hero · November 2022

While I undestand this, targeting datamine info posts, the problem you don't consider is the state of communication of the dev team with the player base.

People go to other forums and datamine sites because they don't get what they are after here. They are not engaged enough by the devs or by the community managers.

There is so much silence on the forums regarding things that people expect from the game. It's this what drives me nuts, really. Like the housing forum, where there is no communication from the housing team, no road map, no goals, no comment on requests from the housing community, and so on! No wonder people are excited about the datamining sites, because they post more updates about the game than you do.

On the PTS forum, so much feedback is plainly ignored for reasons that are not communicated to us. It is your game, so you get to develop it as you want, but since we are the ones playing it, you might be more open in explaining the changes you do or don't.

And yeah, I can agree there are reasons and at times you can't be so open about what is in development. But simple feedback, like hey, we are working on that, or you will be surprised, thanks for your interest, that kind of things can mean a lot.

Tommy_The_Gun · November 2022

Maybe it will reach some dev, so here is um "a feedback" regarding recent forum update. I have read it all and it is written in a very um... "vague" way. So much so that I got the impression that it will allow for almost everything to be considered "an unofficial / unreleased" information. Simple example would be community theories regarding lore of stuff that we don't have in game (like Argonian's Black Marsh or Akavir) or even theories about what happens with certain characters (like Abnur Tharn for example). The paradox is that it may make ESO forums an "unsafe" space to talk about ESO world & lore.

Simple example of what I fear may happen:
1. There is a new content coming out, but no one knows what it will be. So people make forum threads with vote pool what that may be / what would they like to see. If by an accident people will vote right and "guess it" - it will be resulting in closing the thread.
2. People love to talk about ESO lore and try to come up with theories to fill in the gap about lore we are missing. Obviously, this means people will often talk about "gaps" on the map - the locations we don't have (yet) in ESO. But what if some of the lore is being worked on by the devs, because they are designing new content ? Technically that means for community theories to fall into "unofficial" & "unreleased" information, meaning that according to the new rule set - such thread, although harmless will violate those rules & will be closed.

Somehow I doubt devs will able to keep a "poker face" and ignore the discussions (like it used to be) about potential unreleased content. For us, players, there is no way of knowing what content is being worked on or was being worked on and it was scrapped. Even posting links to tes lore wikis & YouTube vids may result in those being removed as there will be no way of knowing what is an "official" and canon stuff and what is "unofficial heresy".

I can understand not allowing data mining being posted on forums, as it may be affecting purchase decisions. Even I remember at some point comparing current stuff in the crown store to the ones that were data minded and thinking to not to buy for example a mount, just because I liked more the one that was data-mined. But even if it will be prohibited to post data mine on forums - I will still look it up elsewhere. It is basically: tilting at windmills. People will just post links on other websites.

I do believe that, if possible, those new rules should be written more clearly: what is allowed & what is not (right now it is only what is not allowed.) I am telling you - it will create a lot of problems as eso forums won't be a "safe place" to discuss eso & other tes games.

Warwolf · November 2022

Sadly you make the problem worse imho.
When you have a concentrated problem you can contain it with facts .
This is how people gonna look for it else where where you have no way to stop it .

I understand this is an easy way but it might bite you in the behind one day as you have no influence out side this forum .

I in my many years on this planet have seen it to many times , silence is fuel for conspiracy thinking
People fill in the blanks with conspiracies ..its sad but its human behavior ..

I think the Mods here do a greed job , i have a tendency to speak out loud and rightful a Mod told me to behave .
That how things are done imho , when you cross the line you get a message explaining this a b or c is not acceptable here .
This is how i now watch my words more careful as i dont want to offend people and i have to keep in mind some peoples have a very low trashhold and i have to respect that .

James-Wayne · November 2022

You just need to put I think, or I believe in front of everything you say is all

ApoAlaia · November 2022

What happened with GTA6 probably had something to do with this change.

The leak occurred mostly in the official forum, and was arguably damaging to the reputation of both the company and the developers involved.

Pre-alpha material, which was TBH something that despite not been entitled to watch I found very interesting, was being used to deride the skill of the developers and the capacity of the publisher to deliver quality, spiced up with a moderate dose of nontroversy.

Apparently for some it was difficult to comprehend the difference between 'snippets of early development system tests' and 'footage of the final product' and the rest... well, is history.

One of the things that compounded the 'damage' (so to speak) was the slow response of the forum in terms of removing material - and discussions of it - that, however interesting many of us found it to be, was definitely not meant 'for public consumption'.

I'd think that ZOS would like to have something concrete in place that allows for swift and ruthless removal of such content, or content that they deem might have the same detrimental effect, from their official forums if the situation arises.

Dr_Con · November 2022

ApoAlaia wrote: »

What happened with GTA6 probably had something to do with this change.

I edited my post above to detail a specific example that really aligns with the post they just released. I think this has more to do with crates than it has to do with hypothetical story spoilers or new additions to the game.

Hurbster · November 2022

SammyKhajit wrote: »

Sigh.

This one appreciates where ZOS is coming from, but it will potentially fuel the narrative for conspiracy theories even more. A better approach is to respond to rumours and datamining threads with “this is unsubstantiated gossip/rumour”.

“The absence of a thing does not equate to its non-existence.” Khajiti common sayings 😸

Note: Sammy loves reading on, and speculating about when and if datamined items will materialise. It’s harmless fun and we all know these objects may or may not show up. But you know, seeing Clanmother Tadali in one of the datamine as a house guest gave this one such a boost, it felt that ZOS listened to feedbacks about more alfiq houseguests.

It doesn’t matter if the house guest will happen this year, next, or never. It’s the thought that counted.

ZoS run by techno-necromancers, no doubt.

From Alpha Centauri.

ApoAlaia · November 2022

Dr_Con wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

What happened with GTA6 probably had something to do with this change.

I edited my post above to detail a specific example that really aligns with the post they just released. I think this has more to do with crates than it has to do with hypothetical story spoilers or new additions to the game.

Ah, that would make sense.

I think I put 2 and 2 together and got 76 here...

Oh well, someone has to be the clown I guess

Veinblood1965 · November 2022

Lebkuchen wrote: »

If you read their rules, you will notice that everything you write can be removed and you can be banned for it. It's just a question of interpretation. I honestly can not tell you how many rules i just broke by telling you that. I hope none, but i guess it's a lot.

I'm betting you broke at least five rules with this one.

OnnuK · November 2022

ohh nice! In Türkiye we have a new "Disinformation Law", on top of that we got one from ESO. I am not against punishment of false, out of scope rumors but who decides what is right what is wrong. You have to have clear rules which are not open to discussion if you want to apply this.

And also rumors happen because you do not have clear communication with your player base and insufficient road map.
just my 2c...

Tenthirty2 · November 2022

Posts of datamined CS items, new motifs, etc are some of the coolest things that show up on the forum.
I can see the view regarding potential spoilers, but that is going to happen through other media sources.
But for me it also motivates me to watch the CS for the new items\crates and plan $$$ accordingly.
Something to look forward to, previews of new cool items.
All I can see a policy like this doing is push me further away from the forum to Reddit, etc. Those items will still show up on other platforms. This new policy seems like an excessive knee jerk and rather unneeded IMO.
I can't be alone in this.

Ragnarok0130 · November 2022

I’m not even surprised anymore. The discussion of datamined content is germane to the game and this forum. It seems this is mostly a self protection mechanism against criticism from the community post U35.

SammyKhajit · November 2022

@Dr_Con

Dr_Con wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

What happened with GTA6 probably had something to do with this change.

I edited my post above to detail a specific example that really aligns with the post they just released. I think this has more to do with crates than it has to do with hypothetical story spoilers or new additions to the game.

Beluga whale, Blue whale, Humpback whale, Narwal, Minke whale, Orca, and many others 🐳

jaws343 · November 2022

Warwolf wrote: »

Sadly you make the problem worse imho.
When you have a concentrated problem you can contain it with facts .
This is how people gonna look for it else where where you have no way to stop it .

I understand this is an easy way but it might bite you in the behind one day as you have no influence out side this forum .

I in my many years on this planet have seen it to many times , silence is fuel for conspiracy thinking
People fill in the blanks with conspiracies ..its sad but its human behavior ..

I think the Mods here do a greed job , i have a tendency to speak out loud and rightful a Mod told me to behave .
That how things are done imho , when you cross the line you get a message explaining this a b or c is not acceptable here .
This is how i now watch my words more careful as i dont want to offend people and i have to keep in mind some peoples have a very low trashhold and i have to respect that .

I think having to go somewhere else for datamine stuff is kind of the point though.

There is an implicit level of endorsement for anything that ZOS allows to remain on the forums. Which means, in the case of datamines or rumors, the forums act as a semi-official source of truth and lend credence to those things when they stay up. So, you get players, as in the example posted further up, that expect datamines to happens and throw fits when they don't.

Having to go elsewhere for that type of content is a very clear stance from ZOS of not endorsing it. Which means, they don't have to speak for or against it at all. It protects them from instance where datamines reveal something and they go a different route by release.

Destai · November 2022

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@HackTheMinotaur thanks for reaching out. Just to clarify your question, all of those would be fine. The purpose of this change is to stop rumors and spoiling of unreleased or unconfirmed content. And sometimes players note rumors as well that are harmful to the studio. For example, if someone is knowing sharing something like, “We datamined content for the next dlc. Here is the info and what you can expect”, that is an example of the content we are referencing to that is no longer welcome on the forum. No matter if the information is true or false, we will remove it. Speculation as you mentioned is perfectly fine and encouraged.

Also, we never noted that players would be banned outright. We will delete comments and reach out accordingly. When we note the going through the customer service process, it will be our normal process, where various criteria are evaluated as part of the process.

Thanks for additional info, but I think there’s only more questions. How will this be enforced against PTS feedback? Can only imagine how easy it’d be for a mod to interpret “this update will ruin my build” as spoiling unreleased content or spreading rumors. Hopefully you can revisit the thread and answer some follow up questions. @ZOS_Kevin

K9002 · November 2022

@ZOS_Kevin
Could you please also clarify the part about sourcing information from official social media channels? I assume this includes the corporate Twitter accounts such as Bethesda and TESOnline. But does it also include individual developer and community manager accounts, like GinaLBruno, mattfiror, SlashLurk and gilliamtherogue?

Cactus_Back · November 2022

Hey folks, not to worry, datamines will still be posted elsewhere as usual, and there is also a Discord server if you want to discuss them with other ESO players. I assume I'm no longer allowed to post any links but it shouldn't be hard to find.

While it is sad that we can no longer discuss datamines on these forums as it has been a tradition for many years, I personally understand where ZOS is coming from and I think the decision makes sense from their business perspective. I guess all we can do now is to thank them for allowing it for as long as they did and move on from this matter.

emilyhyoyeon · November 2022

I will admit, personally 99% of why I liked seeing datamines was to make it easier to budget for items I want to get since I refuse to support the crate gamble concept, and with endeavors/gems from free crates being so limited relative to item costs I have to be particular about my choices of what I buy and whether or not I want to pass on something to save for something else.

ArchangelIsraphel · November 2022

Dr_Con wrote: »

i think people complaining about something not being added was responsible for this change. there's like 20 posts of people saying they refuse to spend money on crates because a certain datamined mount wasn't being added

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/617639/official-discussion-thread-for-new-wraithtide-crown-crates/p1

not naming and shaming, but that topic is a prime example that displays specific examples of comments that ZOS specifically no longer allows. It may have an impact on the bottom line to allow discussion of it on their official forums. Reddit is still an option to discuss these sorts of things, as is player discords. They just don't want people discussing things on their forums.

Indeed, Reddit, Discord, and many other platforms exist for this.The funny thing about this is that the people who enjoy looking at datamines, are going to do it anyway, because the forums are not the only place they get posted. They do not need the forums to see the datamine, know what should/could have been in a crate season, and refuse to purchase crates because what they actually wanted is not in there. I'm not about to put on my earmuffs with a grin and pretend data mines don't exist so that I can be "Happy".

As for the rest of my opinion concerning how I feel about their decision, I will refrain from giving it, as I wouldn't want to speculate.

All I can say is, I'm only encouraged to look at datamines more now and to seek them out regularly, because I want to see what they don't want me to see.

ZOS_Kevin · November 2022

barney2525 wrote: »

Well who is leaking the information? Plug the leaks and there is no issue. Punish the Leaker, not the readers.

IMHO

This would be the ideal, however, there are a multitude of factors that go into how info in leaked. Many of which we cannot control. The intention of this is not to punish readers and to aid in plugging leaks. In fact, we've heard from many that they do not want to be spoiled on content from unofficial sources on our channels, which has happened various times. Hence the evaluation and push for the changing in posting.

Lastly, as mentioned before, this is also to protect our work. Many of us work on projects for months and years. To have their work spoiled by someone on the internet is disheartening enough. We will not encourage that on our forum.

ZOS_Kevin · November 2022

Dr_Con wrote: »

i think people complaining about something not being added was responsible for this change. there's like 20 posts of people saying they refuse to spend money on crates because a certain datamined mount wasn't being added

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/617639/official-discussion-thread-for-new-wraithtide-crown-crates/p1

not naming and shaming, but that topic is a prime example that displays specific examples of comments that ZOS specifically no longer allows. It may have an impact on the bottom line to allow discussion of it on their official forums. Reddit is still an option to discuss these sorts of things, as is player discords. They just don't want people discussing things on their forums.

While this example is not specifically responsible for the change, this is an example of something else we would like to avoid. The confusion around a mount that did not end up ship is a direct result of a datamine.

This has nothing to do with money or the bottom line, but avoiding player confusion is paramount. Things can shift in game development and relying on datamining does not account for the changes we make during development.

SPR_of_HA_community · November 2022

Dr_Con wrote: »

i think people complaining about something not being added was responsible for this change. there's like 20 posts of people saying they refuse to spend money on crates because a certain datamined mount wasn't being added

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/617639/official-discussion-thread-for-new-wraithtide-crown-crates/p1

not naming and shaming, but that topic is a prime example that displays specific examples of comments that ZOS specifically no longer allows. It may have an impact on the bottom line to allow discussion of it on their official forums. Reddit is still an option to discuss these sorts of things, as is player discords. They just don't want people discussing things on their forums.

People may be was only interested in that mount. May be other content in that crates is not interesting for them.

Why is it a problem ?

virtus753 · November 2022

@ZOS_Kevin

Thank you for responding quickly to people’s questions for clarification here.

Since ZOS has posted official information regarding the specific dates for the rest of the quarter’s events, are we allowed to mention those here? I ask because they weren’t directly mentioned as part of official event announcements on news pages (which haven’t gone up yet, as far as I’m aware), but they were included in a link from such a page to official documentation released to the public as part of a promotion. Are those dates something ZOS is ok with being advertised now that they’ve been mentioned that way?

ArchangelIsraphel · November 2022

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

i think people complaining about something not being added was responsible for this change. there's like 20 posts of people saying they refuse to spend money on crates because a certain datamined mount wasn't being added

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/617639/official-discussion-thread-for-new-wraithtide-crown-crates/p1

not naming and shaming, but that topic is a prime example that displays specific examples of comments that ZOS specifically no longer allows. It may have an impact on the bottom line to allow discussion of it on their official forums. Reddit is still an option to discuss these sorts of things, as is player discords. They just don't want people discussing things on their forums.

While this example is not specifically responsible for the change, this is an example of something else we would like to avoid. The confusion around a mount that did not end up ship is a direct result of a datamine.

This has nothing to do with money or the bottom line, but avoiding player confusion is paramount. Things can shift in game development and relying on datamining does not account for the changes we make during development.

May I ask you a genuine question @ZOS_Kevin ? I promise I am not doing so to be confrontational. I'm genuinely curious.

Do the DEVs ever see outcry like this over unreleased content and think that it was a mistake not to release it or regret a choice made to not include something players are hyped over because they saw it in a data mine?

What honestly perplexed me about that crate season and particular instance of data mining was that I couldn't wrap my head around why the devs would withdraw one of the coolest apex mounts I've ever seen- namely, the horse version of this seasons mounts. Many people thought that mount was really cool, and would very much appreciate a way to obtain it.

I look at data mines personally, because it increases my hype for the game.

ZOS_Kevin · November 2022

Destai wrote: »

Thanks for additional info, but I think there’s only more questions. How will this be enforced against PTS feedback? Can only imagine how easy it’d be for a mod to interpret “this update will ruin my build” as spoiling unreleased content or spreading rumors. Hopefully you can revisit the thread and answer some follow up questions. @ZOS_Kevin

PTS feedback will be fine as it always has. It's commentary on content we are putting out on PTS. If there is content on something "ruining a build" then we want to know what it is and how it is. Let's clarify unreleased content as as that may help. If ZOS hasn't talked about specific content on our forum by official staff/dev, social channels, livestreams, website, PTS or Live game in any capacity, then it should be known that the information falls in the unreleased bucket.

Tandor · November 2022

Whilst I have never complained to ZOS about datamining, I may well have argued against it occasionally on the forum simply because of the unconcealed spoilers it generates which have on occasion spoilt aspects of the game for me. So personally I'm delighted that datamining results won't be permitted on this forum from hereon. There are plenty of other places people can go to if they want that sort of information.

While I realise it's impossible to achieve, it would also be great if PTS feedback could be confined to the PTS forum. Some players don't want to know anything at all about new content until it drops on the Live servers, and I've heard before of players taking a complete break from this forum during the run-up to a new release for just that reason.

SeaGtGruff · November 2022

Katheriah wrote: »

The datamined content will just move somewhere else.

Wasn't it already appearing elsewhere first, anyway, then somebody would repost it here or link to it? So in that sense it won't be "moving" anywhere, just not getting airtime here.

VaranisArano · November 2022

Honestly, I'm a little surprised that we haven't had some sort of policy like this since the 2019 incident with Scalebreaker when a Class Representative leaked the PTS Patch Notes early.

There are situations where it's completely reasonable for the Mods to scrub the forums and prevent discussion of material that absolutely wasn't supposed to be released early while they prepare a response. Such things take time. 0In the case of Scalebreaker, the Devs chose to release the PTS notes early after internal steps were taken to deal with the leak, as detailed here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483597/pts-patch-notes-v5-1-0

ZOS_Kevin · November 2022

K9002 wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin
Could you please also clarify the part about sourcing information from official social media channels? I assume this includes the corporate Twitter accounts such as Bethesda and TESOnline. But does it also include individual developer and community manager accounts, like GinaLBruno, mattfiror, SlashLurk and gilliamtherogue?

Sure, this is a fair question. When we talk about official channels in the rules change, we are talking about corporate accounts specifically. While you are fine to note developer accounts, please note that these are their personal accounts and not official channels, despite being employees. So if they are posting anything, it most likely will be on our official channels as well. But we understand there could be outliers in this. These will have to be taken case by case, but with the understanding that one of our employees shared information that they probably shouldn't have.

We'll also add the caveat that if they are expanding on something that has been released in some capacity, then that should be fine. So for example, if a dev on Twitter gives additional insight to the dev process for making Mirri, one of our companions, then that's fine. Mirri is released has been on official channels. No spoiling of content has occurred.

Unfortunately, it's not a completely black and white process, but we hope this helps to clarify. Just remember a good rule of thumb is to check official corporate channels first before posting.

Destai · November 2022

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

Thanks for additional info, but I think there’s only more questions. How will this be enforced against PTS feedback? Can only imagine how easy it’d be for a mod to interpret “this update will ruin my build” as spoiling unreleased content or spreading rumors. Hopefully you can revisit the thread and answer some follow up questions. @ZOS_Kevin

PTS feedback will be fine as it always has. It's commentary on content we are putting out on PTS. If there is content on something "ruining a build" then we want to know what it is and how it is. Let's clarify unreleased content as as that may help. If ZOS hasn't talked about specific content on our forum by official staff/dev, social channels, livestreams, website, PTS or Live game in any capacity, then it should be known that the information falls in the unreleased bucket.

Thanks for the clarification and follow up, appreciate it!