Healing should scale with max resources

MEBengalsFan2001 · October 2022

Healing should scale with either of the max resources. Even if you heal with a stamina ability, if you have more magika, your healing would be based on magika.

In addition to making resource the primary way to heal I would make additional base game changes based on the role selected. Below are examples for each role.

Max Health - When in Tanks role (for each 1K in health Healing In on tanks by 0.5%)
Max Resources - When in healer role for each 5K in your primary resource above 10K your recovery is increased by 1%
Max Spell / Damage - When in DPS role your base spell and weapon damage is increased by 1k

The 1K we all got for spell/weapon damage should be only applied when in DPS role. Healers would get a boost to their recovery but lose the 1K weapon/spell damage. And tanks would get a boost to healing in but would lose 1K weapon and spell damage.

This would make roles matter in the game.

I would include role specific adjustments with Battle Spirit as well to make roles matter again.

jcasini222ub17_ESO · October 2022

Even more of a super hot take- all heals scale directly from health pool. It’ll force some real choices in builds. Like how WW heal (hircine) is health based but costs mag. You can have a massive self heal above 40k health but the recovery and mag pool is low. It has to be used judiciously.

Amottica · October 2022

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MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Max Health - When in Tanks role (for each 1K in health Healing In on tanks by 0.5%)
Max Resources - When in healer role for each 5K in your primary resource above 10K your recovery is increased by 1%
Max Spell / Damage - When in DPS role your base spell and weapon damage is increased by 1k

By design, we do not have rigid designs for roles. In one of the early videos of devs playing ESO it was indicated that the trinity is blurred in ESO. I noted the earlier in this thread as it is a purposeful design which is why such changes as this and what is proposed in this thread are not likely to be considered anytime soon as the top people in Zenimax were part of creating this design.

OnGodiDoDis · October 2022

Amottica wrote: »

.

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Max Health - When in Tanks role (for each 1K in health Healing In on tanks by 0.5%)
Max Resources - When in healer role for each 5K in your primary resource above 10K your recovery is increased by 1%
Max Spell / Damage - When in DPS role your base spell and weapon damage is increased by 1k

By design, we do not have rigid designs for roles. In one of the early videos of devs playing ESO it was indicated that the trinity is blurred in ESO. I noted the earlier in this thread as it is a purposeful design which is why such changes as this and what is proposed in this thread are not likely to be considered anytime soon as the top people in Zenimax were part of creating this design.

Incorrect; the devs said during release that any player can be any role they desire on the same character without having their role locked. Meaning that they can switch between roles freely without having to make a new character. The trinity of roles clearly exists in the game, and some players in PvP are able to be all three, which is leading the game in the wrong direction. Remember when Ring of the Pale Order came out? It made healers useless in 4-man PvE content.

OBJnoob · October 2022

My back and fourth with you previously, Amottica, was kinda about whether or not the idea would have the intended effect. You seemed to think not and I was unable to persuade you. You had said that I ignored some of your points... Which I had, because I thought it was important to nail the first point down before discussing the second.

Point one we were discussing: will it work? I believe it will because in simple terms its easier to stack one thing to "max" than two. Adding more to one will force you to subtract some from the other. I'm not super interested in going over this again, just recapping. I think its pretty simple so, if you've got some knowledge I don't have I'm sorry its way way beyond me.

Point two I'd like to touch on now: SHOULD we?

I do understand that its a unique and likeable aspect of this game where any class and any race can perform any of the three classic mmo roles. But how well it performs any of those roles has always been based on player skill and character build. This will not change that, nor will it preclude any class or race from being viable at any of the three. What it will do is force the build to be more specific and I don't think that's not in keeping with the original intent that we both love. What it is, to me, is just another balance change that there's been so many of.

The problem, from a PvP perspective, is that the same statistic is the main governing force behind two very different purposes: healing and doing damage. The person who does the most damage also heals the most. Literally. And it has lead us into a meta where single players are so incredibly self sufficient that they almost never die.

Being able to perform all three roles and being able to perform all three roles, at the same time, wearing the same gear, are two different things. We're only trying to change the latter scenario.

Amottica · October 2022

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

.

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Max Health - When in Tanks role (for each 1K in health Healing In on tanks by 0.5%)
Max Resources - When in healer role for each 5K in your primary resource above 10K your recovery is increased by 1%
Max Spell / Damage - When in DPS role your base spell and weapon damage is increased by 1k

By design, we do not have rigid designs for roles. In one of the early videos of devs playing ESO it was indicated that the trinity is blurred in ESO. I noted the earlier in this thread as it is a purposeful design which is why such changes as this and what is proposed in this thread are not likely to be considered anytime soon as the top people in Zenimax were part of creating this design.

Incorrect; the devs said during release that any player can be any role they desire on the same character without having their role locked. Meaning that they can switch between roles freely without having to make a new character. The trinity of roles clearly exists in the game, and some players in PvP are able to be all three, which is leading the game in the wrong direction. Remember when Ring of the Pale Order came out? It made healers useless in 4-man PvE content.

I did not say the trinity of roles does not exist. We clearly have tanking, healing, and damage dealing going on in ESO.

What I did say, and is factually correct, is that the roles were not rigid. This is clear since one character can handle doing more than one role without changing their build. If that statement was not correct, then there would be no reason for the suggestion made in this thread.

BTW, I found pre-launch gameplay footage of three developers doing some of the gameplay footage. The first fight is a WB, and ironically, the healer was doing a lot of DPS. Dan Crenshaw (sorc healer) even comments at the start of the fight they started off with crystal shard (DPS ability), and he uses this skill regularly throughout the short fight. Near the end of the fight, the healer starts using mages wrath, which ofc is another damage ability.

In different fights, his mix of healing and damage differs, but they clearly demonstrated how one character can handle both roles with the same build. Granted, this does not mean the character is optimal in either role as they have to choose to not slow as many heal or damage abilities, but that is part of our choices in how we choose to play. So yea, I am correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZv9nRfa2Y

Oh, and one of the caveats of this game from the start is "play as you want". The suggestion in this thread is to limit that.

I am including an article from 2013 that talks about how the trinity is not rigid in ESO. "There will be groups with traditional healers, damage dealers, and tanks anyway. But there will also be groups where roles are not so obvious." This is discussing the core design of ESO from the start and it is exactly what I have said.

https://elderscrollsonline.info/news/holy-trinity-in-eso

I respect your opinion that you would like it to be different. I am merely pointing out that it is not how the devs envisioned this game from the start. It is not that type of game.

OnGodiDoDis · October 2022

Amottica wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

.

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Max Health - When in Tanks role (for each 1K in health Healing In on tanks by 0.5%)
Max Resources - When in healer role for each 5K in your primary resource above 10K your recovery is increased by 1%
Max Spell / Damage - When in DPS role your base spell and weapon damage is increased by 1k

By design, we do not have rigid designs for roles. In one of the early videos of devs playing ESO it was indicated that the trinity is blurred in ESO. I noted the earlier in this thread as it is a purposeful design which is why such changes as this and what is proposed in this thread are not likely to be considered anytime soon as the top people in Zenimax were part of creating this design.

Incorrect; the devs said during release that any player can be any role they desire on the same character without having their role locked. Meaning that they can switch between roles freely without having to make a new character. The trinity of roles clearly exists in the game, and some players in PvP are able to be all three, which is leading the game in the wrong direction. Remember when Ring of the Pale Order came out? It made healers useless in 4-man PvE content.

I did not say the trinity of roles does not exist. We clearly have tanking, healing, and damage dealing going on in ESO.

What I did say, and is factually correct, is that the roles were not rigid. This is clear since one character can handle doing more than one role without changing their build. If that statement was not correct, then there would be no reason for the suggestion made in this thread.

BTW, I found pre-launch gameplay footage of three developers doing some of the gameplay footage. The first fight is a WB, and ironically, the healer was doing a lot of DPS. Dan Crenshaw (sorc healer) even comments at the start of the fight they started off with crystal shard (DPS ability), and he uses this skill regularly throughout the short fight. Near the end of the fight, the healer starts using mages wrath, which ofc is another damage ability.

In different fights, his mix of healing and damage differs, but they clearly demonstrated how one character can handle both roles with the same build. Granted, this does not mean the character is optimal in either role as they have to choose to not slow as many heal or damage abilities, but that is part of our choices in how we choose to play. So yea, I am correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZv9nRfa2Y

Oh, and one of the caveats of this game from the start is "play as you want". The suggestion in this thread is to limit that.

I am including an article from 2013 that talks about how the trinity is not rigid in ESO. "There will be groups with traditional healers, damage dealers, and tanks anyway. But there will also be groups where roles are not so obvious." This is discussing the core design of ESO from the start and it is exactly what I have said.

https://elderscrollsonline.info/news/holy-trinity-in-eso

I respect your opinion that you would like it to be different. I am merely pointing out that it is not how the devs envisioned this game from the start. It is not that type of game.

Those videos are demonstrating how a person can handle multiple roles at once. In what scenario will a multi-role player be allowed to participate in endgame content? This "blurring" of roles is clearly meant for more casual players that are not looking to seriously envelop themselves in the game. With time, those casual players will have to select their desired role and optimize it to the highest degree if they wish to be a part of the endgame community. This is why we have multiple character slots; people make role-specific characters. I don't know if you have realized this, but this is the PvP Combat and Skills section, not the PvE Combat and Skills section. Therefore you should probably consider that we may be referring to people in PvP when we say that multi-role builds are indeed a problem. It may not seem like a big issue in PvE. I understand that people like to solo some PvE content, but the fact is those builds have degraded the PvP experience for many years. Prime-time PvP used to have an hour+ queue on a regular weekend. Now the queue is only about 1 minute. Sometimes there is no queue at all. The Cyrodiil servers are dying. I know that PvE'rs don't care about Cyrodiil. They get new maps every three months. We've been playing on the same map for 7+ years. Believe me when I say that this is a necessary change for PvP.

chessalavakia_ESO · October 2022

Amottica wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

.

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Max Health - When in Tanks role (for each 1K in health Healing In on tanks by 0.5%)
Max Resources - When in healer role for each 5K in your primary resource above 10K your recovery is increased by 1%
Max Spell / Damage - When in DPS role your base spell and weapon damage is increased by 1k

By design, we do not have rigid designs for roles. In one of the early videos of devs playing ESO it was indicated that the trinity is blurred in ESO. I noted the earlier in this thread as it is a purposeful design which is why such changes as this and what is proposed in this thread are not likely to be considered anytime soon as the top people in Zenimax were part of creating this design.

Incorrect; the devs said during release that any player can be any role they desire on the same character without having their role locked. Meaning that they can switch between roles freely without having to make a new character. The trinity of roles clearly exists in the game, and some players in PvP are able to be all three, which is leading the game in the wrong direction. Remember when Ring of the Pale Order came out? It made healers useless in 4-man PvE content.

I did not say the trinity of roles does not exist. We clearly have tanking, healing, and damage dealing going on in ESO.

What I did say, and is factually correct, is that the roles were not rigid. This is clear since one character can handle doing more than one role without changing their build. If that statement was not correct, then there would be no reason for the suggestion made in this thread.

BTW, I found pre-launch gameplay footage of three developers doing some of the gameplay footage. The first fight is a WB, and ironically, the healer was doing a lot of DPS. Dan Crenshaw (sorc healer) even comments at the start of the fight they started off with crystal shard (DPS ability), and he uses this skill regularly throughout the short fight. Near the end of the fight, the healer starts using mages wrath, which ofc is another damage ability.

In different fights, his mix of healing and damage differs, but they clearly demonstrated how one character can handle both roles with the same build. Granted, this does not mean the character is optimal in either role as they have to choose to not slow as many heal or damage abilities, but that is part of our choices in how we choose to play. So yea, I am correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZv9nRfa2Y

Oh, and one of the caveats of this game from the start is "play as you want". The suggestion in this thread is to limit that.

I am including an article from 2013 that talks about how the trinity is not rigid in ESO. "There will be groups with traditional healers, damage dealers, and tanks anyway. But there will also be groups where roles are not so obvious." This is discussing the core design of ESO from the start and it is exactly what I have said.

https://elderscrollsonline.info/news/holy-trinity-in-eso

I respect your opinion that you would like it to be different. I am merely pointing out that it is not how the devs envisioned this game from the start. It is not that type of game.

The thing is, the current design of weapon/spell damage is not really making it much of a choice as it's better than max stat for both damage and healing.

This is kind of awkward when many of the games earlier sets didn't give weapon/spell damage and the healing sets that scale scale off of max stat.

Honestly, the difference between my healers and my dps in much of the games content is maybe an additional heal or two and being stuck wearing a boring set that buffs people on my healers.

IMHO, Max Resource builds should be doing the same damage they do now but, they should be doing healing that is slightly less than the amount that current weapon and spell damage builds.

Weapon/Spell damage builds should be doing a bit less healing than the current Max Resources builds do.

DrSlaughtr · October 2022

It doesn't matter what was intended in development. What matters is what's happening right now in game and how it affects the desire of players to log in and commit time (and $) when there are a million other things in life competing for our attention.

Players can build to be a great tank, healer and DD right now in pvp and it needs to be addressed. They've continually kicked the can down the road for the better part of the year since they buffed healing and mitigation in BS, as well as introducing several problematic sets along the way.

StShoot · October 2022

That wouldnt change a thing, we had a max res meta years before and it was the same as now players neglected their wp/sp in order to gain higher max stats. As long as a stat boosts both (dmg and healing) nothing will change because players will always just stack the stat that is more effective.
If zos wanted to change stat stacking they had to assign each stat a specific role (max mag/stam for deffensive and wp/sp for offensive abilitys) but that would probably leave PvE in shambles.

endgamesmug · October 2022

What i can remember was at one stage Dark elf had the biggest mag pool, i think i had close to 60k mag before shields were adjusted many times and i remember them being super effective. I hadnt moved on to stam at that stage but i do remember Hulking draugr was popular.

DrSlaughtr · October 2022

StShoot wrote: »

That wouldnt change a thing, we had a max res meta years before and it was the same as now players neglected their wp/sp in order to gain higher max stats. As long as a stat boosts both (dmg and healing) nothing will change because players will always just stack the stat that is more effective.
If zos wanted to change stat stacking they had to assign each stat a specific role (max mag/stam for deffensive and wp/sp for offensive abilitys) but that would probably leave PvE in shambles.

As of today it is very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve the same level of damage from max resource than damage. It doesn't scale as well and damage buffs will not affect healing. There's also really only set that gives a lot of resources with a decent amount of w/s damage and it would have to be double barred to work. Point being you would do less damage on all skills.

If it was as effective as you let on, players would already be doing it.

Not saying it's a perfect idea. I just don't see many others.

Amottica · October 2022

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

.

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Max Health - When in Tanks role (for each 1K in health Healing In on tanks by 0.5%)
Max Resources - When in healer role for each 5K in your primary resource above 10K your recovery is increased by 1%
Max Spell / Damage - When in DPS role your base spell and weapon damage is increased by 1k

By design, we do not have rigid designs for roles. In one of the early videos of devs playing ESO it was indicated that the trinity is blurred in ESO. I noted the earlier in this thread as it is a purposeful design which is why such changes as this and what is proposed in this thread are not likely to be considered anytime soon as the top people in Zenimax were part of creating this design.

Incorrect; the devs said during release that any player can be any role they desire on the same character without having their role locked. Meaning that they can switch between roles freely without having to make a new character. The trinity of roles clearly exists in the game, and some players in PvP are able to be all three, which is leading the game in the wrong direction. Remember when Ring of the Pale Order came out? It made healers useless in 4-man PvE content.

I did not say the trinity of roles does not exist. We clearly have tanking, healing, and damage dealing going on in ESO.

What I did say, and is factually correct, is that the roles were not rigid. This is clear since one character can handle doing more than one role without changing their build. If that statement was not correct, then there would be no reason for the suggestion made in this thread.

BTW, I found pre-launch gameplay footage of three developers doing some of the gameplay footage. The first fight is a WB, and ironically, the healer was doing a lot of DPS. Dan Crenshaw (sorc healer) even comments at the start of the fight they started off with crystal shard (DPS ability), and he uses this skill regularly throughout the short fight. Near the end of the fight, the healer starts using mages wrath, which ofc is another damage ability.

In different fights, his mix of healing and damage differs, but they clearly demonstrated how one character can handle both roles with the same build. Granted, this does not mean the character is optimal in either role as they have to choose to not slow as many heal or damage abilities, but that is part of our choices in how we choose to play. So yea, I am correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZv9nRfa2Y

Oh, and one of the caveats of this game from the start is "play as you want". The suggestion in this thread is to limit that.

I am including an article from 2013 that talks about how the trinity is not rigid in ESO. "There will be groups with traditional healers, damage dealers, and tanks anyway. But there will also be groups where roles are not so obvious." This is discussing the core design of ESO from the start and it is exactly what I have said.

https://elderscrollsonline.info/news/holy-trinity-in-eso

I respect your opinion that you would like it to be different. I am merely pointing out that it is not how the devs envisioned this game from the start. It is not that type of game.

Those videos are demonstrating how a person can handle multiple roles at once. In what scenario will a multi-role player be allowed to participate in endgame content?

End-game content is what someone makes of it. They may be more into questing or be active in PvP at end-game and in those scenarios being able to handle multiple roles is great. Even in many dungeons some groups do not run a pure healer which leads to having a multi-role character ideal.

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

.

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Max Health - When in Tanks role (for each 1K in health Healing In on tanks by 0.5%)
Max Resources - When in healer role for each 5K in your primary resource above 10K your recovery is increased by 1%
Max Spell / Damage - When in DPS role your base spell and weapon damage is increased by 1k

By design, we do not have rigid designs for roles. In one of the early videos of devs playing ESO it was indicated that the trinity is blurred in ESO. I noted the earlier in this thread as it is a purposeful design which is why such changes as this and what is proposed in this thread are not likely to be considered anytime soon as the top people in Zenimax were part of creating this design.

Incorrect; the devs said during release that any player can be any role they desire on the same character without having their role locked. Meaning that they can switch between roles freely without having to make a new character. The trinity of roles clearly exists in the game, and some players in PvP are able to be all three, which is leading the game in the wrong direction. Remember when Ring of the Pale Order came out? It made healers useless in 4-man PvE content.

I did not say the trinity of roles does not exist. We clearly have tanking, healing, and damage dealing going on in ESO.

What I did say, and is factually correct, is that the roles were not rigid. This is clear since one character can handle doing more than one role without changing their build. If that statement was not correct, then there would be no reason for the suggestion made in this thread.

BTW, I found pre-launch gameplay footage of three developers doing some of the gameplay footage. The first fight is a WB, and ironically, the healer was doing a lot of DPS. Dan Crenshaw (sorc healer) even comments at the start of the fight they started off with crystal shard (DPS ability), and he uses this skill regularly throughout the short fight. Near the end of the fight, the healer starts using mages wrath, which ofc is another damage ability.

In different fights, his mix of healing and damage differs, but they clearly demonstrated how one character can handle both roles with the same build. Granted, this does not mean the character is optimal in either role as they have to choose to not slow as many heal or damage abilities, but that is part of our choices in how we choose to play. So yea, I am correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZv9nRfa2Y

Oh, and one of the caveats of this game from the start is "play as you want". The suggestion in this thread is to limit that.

I am including an article from 2013 that talks about how the trinity is not rigid in ESO. "There will be groups with traditional healers, damage dealers, and tanks anyway. But there will also be groups where roles are not so obvious." This is discussing the core design of ESO from the start and it is exactly what I have said.

https://elderscrollsonline.info/news/holy-trinity-in-eso

I respect your opinion that you would like it to be different. I am merely pointing out that it is not how the devs envisioned this game from the start. It is not that type of game.

This "blurring" of roles is clearly meant for more casual players that are not looking to seriously envelop themselves in the game. With time, those casual players will have to select their desired role and optimize it to the highest degree if they wish to be a part of the endgame community. This is why we have multiple character slots; people make role-specific characters. I

Blurring the roles is clearly meant for the game as part of "Play as you want". And yes. this game has a lot of casual players and many who I know who play the game fairly seriously for years have builds that can handle multiple roles. I even know players who raid competitively and have builds that allow them to play multiple roles because the devs chose to design the game to permit this. It works well since we can change builds on the fly for the task at hand.

OnGodiDoDis · October 2022

StShoot wrote: »

That wouldnt change a thing, we had a max res meta years before and it was the same as now players neglected their wp/sp in order to gain higher max stats. As long as a stat boosts both (dmg and healing) nothing will change because players will always just stack the stat that is more effective.
If zos wanted to change stat stacking they had to assign each stat a specific role (max mag/stam for deffensive and wp/sp for offensive abilitys) but that would probably leave PvE in shambles.

That was the proposed change. I apologize for not making it clear. Max resources should scale healing higher than damage, and S/W damage should scale damage higher than healing. This will prevent a shift from stacking S/W damage to stacking max resources, and will create the contrast we yearn for.

DrSlaughtr · October 2022

"Play as you want" always seems to end up being a shield for broken mechanics and imbalances. No one is saying you can't be a little tanky, a little damage dealing and a little bit of a healer. We're saying you shouldn't be able to bury the needle on all three.

Lughlongarm · October 2022

Heals scales out of max stats is not not a bad idea actually. It will make healing more inline with the shields mechanic. However, in order for this to work, lots of changes will be required and players will probably hate it.