Ravenwatch and the mess of a "feature" that is no procs

caserdar · September 2022

where is the update? it was said to stay until u34 and we are currently on u35, so really where is the update? i am not here to argue about if its good or not, you can check that by simply comparing the populations. it is just sad how bad this all situation is being handled. no proc is for better or worse the only "feature" we got in pvp for forever and zos simply forgot about its existance.

also even tho everyone knows the sets list sent by zos is quite outdated and not 100% true to begin with, at least check if new sets that you release that are obviously not a proc set (order's wrath) do work in the NO PROC campaign.

caserdar · September 2022

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom tagging in hopes of any kind of feedback

caserdar · September 2022

what do i need to do to get an answer around here? seriously should i instead go and tag zos staff on twitter? or maybe i should get a content creator that is wholesome enough to get a reaction out of zos to make a video about it. this is the second forum thread i made about zos' plans about ravenwatch and its getting ghosted again. this "feature" got released with false information on how it works and without even trying to actually ask how people feel about it, its killing the campaign(already did in most of the servers) and now you guys dont even want to talk about it. if you dont want to commit to it just end the no proc or end nocp campaign all together

Ominer · September 2022

The idea of no-proc is stale now and i'd be happy if they just reinstated the procs in noCP tbh.

I enjoyed noCP pvp much more than CP, CP lowers the skill ceiling of PvP a lot imo (spam burst heals, perma block etc) by making sustain too easy.

YandereGirlfriend · September 2022

Ominer wrote: »

The idea of no-proc is stale now and i'd be happy if they just reinstated the procs in noCP tbh.

I enjoyed noCP pvp much more than CP, CP lowers the skill ceiling of PvP a lot imo (spam burst heals, perma block etc) by making sustain too easy.

Absolutely! And there are tons of players currently playing in CP campaigns that also agree.

If they reverted the No-Proc ruleset the population of Raven would shoot back up to a healthy level.

kollege14a5 · September 2022

+1

ForumBully · September 2022

I don't think players mind procs as a rule, I think a lot of players mind the kind of procs this combat team comes up with.

xDeusEJRx · September 2022

ForumBully wrote: »

I don't think players mind procs as a rule, I think a lot of players mind the kind of procs this combat team comes up with.

The combat team has no intention to stop releasing these bad procs so that's just the state of procs nowadays, so I'd say it's just procs in general that are bad. We've dealt with bad procs for a full year now (from release of hrothgar, plaguebreak,DC back in waking flame up until now with Mara's Balm and Nocturnals Ploy)

The direction they have for procs are not a good one. Not sure why they never put a cap on outgoing proc damage/healing. But it's clear that they have no intention to stop releasing bad "play the game for you" and "make you unbelievably strong" procs.

J18696 · September 2022

Just delete the no proc ruleset the 10 players who enjoy it cries will be drowned out by the few 100 who are cheering for it being gone

caserdar · September 2022

ForumBully wrote: »

I don't think players mind procs as a rule, I think a lot of players mind the kind of procs this combat team comes up with.

that is the point, no proc is being handled incredibly bad. newer ppl that just pop in to nıcp campaign do it because they have low cp and dont want to be handicapped in cp, only after a while they realize their sets dont work because there is only a little passage in the campaign description stating it works with no proc rules and nobody looks there. oh and what do newer players do? they immediately leave because nobody has time to get another set of gear just to go in there. if there were a lot more sets viable, like if only the damage procs were prohibited it would be massively better. or maybe if they would make like 5-6 sets with various stats that people can purchase from alliance bases for free/low gold cost and only those work there that would still be better than this mess.

Starshadw · September 2022

Many of us were confused when they elected to add no proc to Ravenwatch instead of creating a new campaign that was CP and no proc. That was actually what the majority of us were asking for. Why they decided to tack it onto Ravenwatch remains a mystery.

YandereGirlfriend · September 2022

Starshadw wrote: »

Many of us were confused when they elected to add no proc to Ravenwatch instead of creating a new campaign that was CP and no proc. That was actually what the majority of us were asking for. Why they decided to tack it onto Ravenwatch remains a mystery.

Quite right.

Nobody in Raven was clamoring for No-Proc. But we ended up taking the 'L' anyway and the campaign is now a complete ghost town.

OBJnoob · September 2022

J18696 wrote: »

Just delete the no proc ruleset the 10 players who enjoy it cries will be drowned out by the few 100 who are cheering for it being gone

I admit I seem to be in the minority and you seem to be in the majority... But I'm not sure where you come up with a "few hundred." I see the same 5 people in the two current threads.

On Xbox na ravenwatch was in a very similar state before the change. Some very prominent guilds that I either was a part of or knew well changed alliances for a while to try and create balance and a challenge for themselves. For a few months it worked. Then the same alliance that they'd left had a resurgence... Started kicking their butts every night, and they left completely.

I happen to play for the winning alliance but please believe me I'm.not bragging... I hate the state we're in, its no fun. But how can you honestly say adding procs would help? Is it not true that a lopsided population (rather than a truly dead one,) is what ruined the PvP? And if everything else remains the same but procs are added, don't you know the same players will come out ahead? And the same ones will leave.

Starshadw · September 2022

J18696 wrote: »

Just delete the no proc ruleset the 10 players who enjoy it cries will be drowned out by the few 100 who are cheering for it being gone

For those of us on PCNA Gray Host, the time we had no procs made a HUGE difference in terms of overall enjoyment for a significant percentage of people. It was simply a lot more fun to play when the proc sets were disabled - which is why we asked for a CP/no proc campaign. Again, why they tacked it onto Ravenwatch (which isn't at all what we asked for) is beyond me.

Kartalin · September 2022

As I mentioned in another thread it's the implementation of no proc that most people have a problem with. Essentially there are no tools from a gear perspective that help us deal with massive population imbalances -- not to mention most players with half a brain can see a proxy bomb coming from a mile away. The fact that campaigns cannot self-adjust to significant population differences is another factor.

No one really wanted the free damage procs in the no proc campaign, or sets like dark convergence, plaguebreak, and mara's balm, but the sets that were ultimately allowed ended up too limiting for the unbalanced scenario that resulted.

J18696 · September 2022

This ruleset has actually had a negative impact on the overall gameplay experience it has devolved into at least on pc na massive AD stacks with 0 counter to fight back because all the large group counters are tied directly to sets that are banned and proxy is to easy to avoid

Another reason is also the defensive set options massively outperform the aloud damage sets that follow the rulesets

Tberg725 · September 2022

I personally love the No proc it makes the game fun not have less skilled players blowing you up from overload and VD and I would prefer a No Proc with CP and alliance lock 👌 campaigns without alliance lock are just lame and is part of the reason GH is the place to be people faction hoping when they start losing turns the game into a snooze fest

Metemsycosis · September 2022

J18696 wrote: »

This ruleset has actually had a negative impact on the overall gameplay experience it has devolved into at least on pc na massive AD stacks with 0 counter to fight back because all the large group counters are tied directly to sets that are banned and proxy is to easy to avoid

Another reason is also the defensive set options massively outperform the aloud damage sets that follow the rulesets

I don't mean to direct this towards you in particular but there's no gear that would help a massively imbalanced population. I've seen this argument here and there and never understood it.

I guess if our zerg is larger than your small scale then our proc sets don't work ?

WaywardArgonian · September 2022

The idea could've worked and I believe there is still a place for a campaign that is less affected by the onslaught of unbalanced proc sets that's unleashed onto the regular campaigns every 3 months. But as it stands the way the ruleset works is nonsensical and the way it's communicated to players in-game is even worse. Really shows that this was just an afterthought and that there was little in the way of a vision behind the call to turn Ravenwatch into a non-proc campaign.

YandereGirlfriend · September 2022

Metemsycosis wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

This ruleset has actually had a negative impact on the overall gameplay experience it has devolved into at least on pc na massive AD stacks with 0 counter to fight back because all the large group counters are tied directly to sets that are banned and proxy is to easy to avoid

Another reason is also the defensive set options massively outperform the aloud damage sets that follow the rulesets

I don't mean to direct this towards you in particular but there's no gear that would help a massively imbalanced population. I've seen this argument here and there and never understood it.

I guess if our zerg is larger than your small scale then our proc sets don't work ?

Giant population imbalances are always going to be a problem but with proc sets the opposition at least has a fighting chance when outnumbered 3, 4, 5 to 1.

For example, the hardest-hitting bombs will always be Crits with pumped up Crit Dam and high Penetration due to the way that the damage formula works. If you're running in a group, then you can narrow that down to Harmony Crit with more or less full Penetration.

In current Ravenwatch, you just can't get that since so many of the best offensive sets are banned. If you build for Pen, then you're going to be super low in Crit Chance and Crit Dam; if you build for Crit Chance then you're going to be low on Crit Dam and Pen, etc. There's no Balorgh to bail you out on Pen or Mech Acuity to juice your Crit Chance while you make the rest of your damage investments elsewhere. And this doesn't even address the absence of things like Vicious Death, which allows you to kill many enemies quickly (and perhaps make a bombing build like high Crit Dam and Pen, low Crit Chance viable).

And without the ability to "have it all" in your bomb, you simply can't clear the giant cumulative reserves of enemy HP that is present in the enemy server-stack - or at least you will not be able to clear it in any efficient amount of time. This allows for the stack to get off manual rez's during your maneuvering phase and basically ensure that you never (or only excruciatingly slowly) change the map. And if you never change the map and the enemy begins the night with all Scrolls, keeps, and Emp (which they will), then the deck is even more stacked against you (and it's awful for morale since you can fight hard all night and kill every member of the server-stack dozens of times but three hours later the map is identical to when you started).

Of course, proc sets would aid the server-stacking side as well, but the sets would, in all probability, raise the damage and survival ceiling of the tighter groups more than the server-stacking side.

OBJnoob · September 2022

No offense but just speaking honestly... No cp is dead. That's what half of this thread is talking about-- whether or not adding proc sets would bring more people.

Now you're talking about a "tight" group killing server stacks. Listen if your guild group can't kill the zergs then procs won't help you. You're talking about server stacks like its greyhost or something. What's a server stack in rw? 20 people?

YandereGirlfriend · September 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

No offense but just speaking honestly... No cp is dead. That's what half of this thread is talking about-- whether or not adding proc sets would bring more people.

Now you're talking about a "tight" group killing server stacks. Listen if your guild group can't kill the zergs then procs won't help you. You're talking about server stacks like its greyhost or something. What's a server stack in rw? 20 people?

I haven't played in Ravenwatch since like June and I'm describing the situation that existed 3-6 months ago when AD would be locked every night and zerging everyone else off the map.

Definitely agree that the campaign is completely dead. What I'm trying to point out is that the No-Proc condition greatly assisted in killing it since it took away any realistic chance to fight back for the other two factions.

OBJnoob · September 2022

When I read the threads about how to improve greyhost or how to hurt ball groups all the people that sound like they really know what they're talking about seem to say that the problem with "zergbusting" sets and procs is that ball groups themselves can use it better.

In my own limited experience this is true. I am very sorry to disagree with you because I badly want a healthy population to fight against. But what I don't want is procs and, more to the point, I don't want procs that don't even have the intended result.

On my server AD "zergs" the entire map but somehow never has a bar themselves. We're talking less than 30 (being very generous with 30,) people. 15 of whom are randoms and are only there because the map is yellow... And the other 15, my guild and I, who I suppose are responsible for this catastrophe.

But the real problem? Even when they get 15 people together we still tend to win.

So. I don't know what the answer is, and I'm not trying to sound arrogant because in the grand scheme of things I'm a B+ player at best. But if you give them plaguebreak and vicious death... Yeah, okay, one individual might blow 3 of us up. But don't you think we have someone in our guild that'll just bomb you right back? It isn't as though we're going to not alter our builds.

Its like saying you can't beat somebody at checkers so you challenge them to a game of chess. Sorry but it isn't going to change a thing. Except now we deal with all the bullcrap busted sets that everybody else complains about.

Metemsycosis · September 2022

Or the idea that there are no tight groups on the server stacked side. At best you're locked into a tight group vs tight group except one side has a 20-40 more pugs on their side.

caserdar · October 2022

i am once again asking for an update. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

Elendir2am · October 2022

When I visit no-proc, no-CP server, It is because no-proc, not because no-CP.

When I visit PvP, it is Grey Host with DK tank mostly. But sometime, I want to do some shooting myself. I have mag-sorc for that purpose. But It isnt wise to take magsorc with matriarch into proc server. So I go to no-proc server.

Tommy_The_Gun · October 2022

I think that "no-proc" rule set should be re-done, so that we could use more sets, but the ones that are "problematic" (or unbalanced) should be not allowed. For starters, I would allow all "non-burst" sets. So if a set has burst damage proc or burst healing proc it would not work, but the ones with dot or hot would work.

Example:
- Almalexia's Mercy has hot (heal over time) - so it would work.
- Aspect of Mazzatun has burst heal (all healing is provided in one proc) - so it would not work.
- Viper's Sting has dot (damage over time) so it would work.
- Caluurion's Legacy has burst damage (all damage is provided in one proc) - so it would not proc.

If a set has both dot & burst damage (like Plaguebreak or Dark Convergence) it would not work. If a set has other effects - those effects would not work as long as set has burst dmg/healing aspect. Faun's Lark Cladding for instance has CC, but it also has burst sustain & healing - although small, but it is there - so it would not work.