Need help with a 'Heavy Support'-build

DogeRobert · April 2014

Greetings one and all. :-)

First of all, no I don't have a build yet. So I can't show you my ideas. This is a pre-build thread. ;-)

In other MMOs, I've always been the healer or ranged DPS for a variety of reasons, most dealing with the fact that by the time I entered the game, everyone knew the content and nobody was willing to teach the new guy. So I usually ended up in the back of the group, tagging along as best I could. Healing and ranged DPS are the only viable choices there.

However, I'd really like to try something new in ESO.

I really, really, REALLY like the idea of building a char based on group buffing and support. We seem to have plenty of pure DPS and various self-centered builds. (I realize this may sound affronting, but that is not my intent. Complete self-reliance is important in most content.)

I realize this might not be viable, especially if this is the only role said char performs, so I'm trying to figure out, if and how I can design a build around support/buff (and maybe a suitable secondary role) to be not only useful in endgame content, but someone people actually want to be in their groups. (The latter is also based on my skills as a player, I fully realize that.)

So far, it seems to me that a tankish oriented char may form the basis for the heavy support build better than a heal-oriented one. But I might be wrong. (I want to avoid DPS, as we have many, many DPS'ers already)
On the other hand I don't want to build a pure tank. First of all, they seem far less needed in ESO than in other MMOs (based purely on reading the forums) and secondly, I've never been much good at tanking. (Again, I never really had time to learn the content before either having to perform my role perfectly or be shouted out, so that is a heavy factor in this, I suspect.)

But I need to learn at some point and this is a good time, as most of us are still new.. and hopefully forgiving of a few initial mistakes. ;-)

In short, I want a group support build, able to make a positive difference in group content, who will be a desirable char to have in a group. (If at all possible)

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Anyways. It seems to me that there are certain base choices I need to get right, from the outset:

1) Templar or DragonKnight: Which is the better for group support? (I've left out Nightblade solely because I have absolutely no idea about their skills)
The templar has heals and the DK seems to have a few more control-options, but I am not convinced either way. What are your suggestions and why?
(Please be advised that I don't really care about my personal DPS, though personal survivability/damage mitigation is important. The point is to control the battlefield and add to the output/mitigation/power of everybody else, while staying alive and functional.)

2) Light, Medium or Heavy: Depending on the abilities needed, which armor type best compliments what I need and how can I make said type viable for my personal survival? (Eg. Does the mana-cost of using light armor with armor buffs outweigh the mana-regain in the short/long terms? Are there other factors to consider, etc.)

3) Race: While a minor choice, all things considered, as most bonuses can be counter-balanced with enchantments, there might still be some bonuses, that outweigh others. (And some races may be completely unviable for my purposes)

4) Weapons: Melee or ranged? Sword and board or something else.. (Personally I like the utilities of the 1H&Sh, but something else might work better for what I have in mind.)

5) Build: What powers would you advice for my hot bars and why? What morphs would work best (and why) and whatever else you can think of.

6) Viability: Honestly, while I believe a control/support build (tankish or otherwise) could be very viable, especially in a group with people willing to take advantage of it, I have nothing to base this belief on, other than the sheer amount of support-powers I see in the game. So please, don't hold back the constructive criticism, if needed.

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My initial idea is to make this char into some form of tank/support, based on the countless threads I see about how ordinary tanks (Taunt -> Turtle Up) are not quite as needed in ESO as in more standard MMOs. (This may very well be a completely wrong assumption, but for my purposes, I hope not, as I honestly love the idea of a viable buff-support tank (or offtank), controlling key aspects of the battlefield (and tanking where necessary), while strengthening the damage output and mitigating the damage of everyone else. But, as I've stated, I have no idea whether or not this is viable, desirable or how to go about designing it properly.

And yeah, I know I'm asking a lot. But there are so many experienced players out there and so much accumulated knowledge, even if the game is still new.. I'd really like to try and take advantage of it BEFORE I mess up too badly. ;-)

Thanks in Advance for your participation in the hopefully constructive discussion.

- Rob

jesterstear · April 2014

I think there's three kinds of tank in ESO, and your proposals include two of those.

1) Dragonknight Tank with secondary crowd control, buff and debuff skills

2) Templar Tank with secondary healing skills

3) Tank with secondary dps role (two hander alternate weapon etc)

I guess that's because this game discourages the traditional taunt and tank everything single purpose tank, and also because the sword and shield skill Ransack is the only active tanking skill you really need. As you have another four active skill slots, and a so far unused Magika pool for your class skills, it is natural that you will have a secondary role. Also when you get the weapon and quickbar swap at 15 , many tanks swap to a 2 hander, mine swaps to a restoration staff.

In "heavy healer" mode, I have two restoration staff healing skills, two class healing skills, all using Magika, and the Heavy Armour ultimate skill Immovable, since I have nothing else to drain the copious stamina it uses.

I do have the turn undead skill too, from the fighter's guild, so am not entirely without buffs/cc of my own.

It all seems to work ok, I can tank bosses, on trash I can tank , cc and offheal, or start with the restoration staff, spam some heals, get agro, hit immovable , and if still agroed, swap to sword and board.

DPS is slow while levelling though at level 30 I finally had enough skill points to invest in a dps skill, which I can swap onto my hotbar while levelling.

Kayvee · April 2014

You should read the article they recently put out regarding Craglorn and the encounters they're designing for end-game group content.

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/04/23/creating-eso-trials?ref=home

In particular this section: "In Trials, all 12 players have to be flexible and agile. By the time you reach the Veteran Rank you’ll need to be ready, you’ll have access to a large number of abilities, and Trials expect you to be prepared to face a number of situations. You’ll need to know what skills to bring for each encounter and be able to adjust your strategy and loadout to react to boss abilities.

The flexibility of our skill system allows us to create plenty of interesting situations for Trial groups, and we can demand a high level of mechanical mastery. For instance, there may be encounters that require a heavy burn phase where everyone needs to contribute high damage in a short period of time. We can also force groups to deal with extreme incoming damage. In these situations, additional healing and damage reduction skills might be necessary for everyone.

The skill system also allows us to play with group fragmentation, both planned and spontaneous. There are times when you’ll need to coordinate to split up and accomplish two or more objectives at once, but there are other times when your group can be shattered unexpectedly. In those situations, every player on your team will need to be ready to react and forge ahead in the Trial. And, of course, everyone will be expected to avoid telegraphed damage, control enemies, and know their role thoroughly."

I understand what you're going for with your request, as is similar to my intentions at the onset as well (I decided to go with Dragon Knight) but with this information I have tweaked my character to be viable in any circumstance. She can pump out damage, when needed, crank out heals, when needed and take a decent amount of damage when necessary, even though she uses a full set of light armor.

It seems to me that the developers are really pushing us into making hybrid characters so they can create more interesting encounters, but I think that design choice undermines their other design choices that say "Make the character YOU want!"

Anywho that's my 2 cents. Sorry for not answering your request directly, but I'd hate for anyone to tailor a niche character that winds up not being viable due to encounter design.

DogeRobert · April 2014

First of all, thank you, both of you for replying. I appreciate it very much. :-)

Jesterstear: How 'needed' do you find your offhealing in group content? Is it needed most of the time, some of the time or not all that much? And would you venture a guess if the reason is content-based or due to the skill of the primary healer, if there is any? (Easy/hard content - skilled/unskilled healer, etc.)

On the same track, I'm assuming you're primarily a tank and not so much a controller, based on your post. Do other team-members handle the CC's, either a dedicated controller or free-for-all, or do you commonly run without? If so, how would a controller benefit you in groups, if at all? (Seeing as they would replace another char)

And how would you prioritize the skill-investiture, while leveling, based on your experience?

On the subject of tanks, would you consider one type more useful than another? Are there a significant number of one kind over the other in your experience? And would you venture an opinion on when one kind would be more useful than another? (I imagine pugging, as an example, must be a lot different than running with an experienced team)

Oh, and please feel free to add anything else, you think about :-)

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Kayvee: This is definitely something I have to consider and thank you for bringing it to my attention.. It does beg a few questions, which I hope you'll answer. :-)

How much of a hassle have you found it to 'level up' such a wide variety of skills? I'm guessing you have to pretty much reach the end-levels of all skill-lines to achieve a sufficiently wide range of skills, which must also demand a very heavy number of skill-points apart from simply gaining experience in the skill-line itself. Have you had any difficulties in this regard or is it easy enough to do?

How have you designed your Dragon Knight around the concept of being an adequate all-rounder? What are your primary setups for healing, tanking, DPS and CC? Do you have a bit of everything on the bars or do you swap around, as you see the need? (I imagine this can be tough in situations where you have to react quickly.)

How does it affect your damage mitigation to wear full light? Can you act as primary tank or do you feel under-armored in such situations? (And what skill(s) do you use to assuage the lack of passive armor? I know the DK has plenty to choose from, so I'm trying to figure out which one is the best in group content.

And of course, feel free to add anything else. ;-)

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And for both of you: Since I cannot level up in everything at the same time, what suggestions would you give for progression? Focus on tanking first or mixing it up from the get-go? (I know I need some survivability and being able to kill stuff solo, but apart from that.)

And if anyone else have something to add, please do so. :-)

jesterstear · April 2014

DogeRobert wrote: »

How 'needed' do you find your offhealing in group content? Is it needed most of the time, some of the time or not all that much? And would you venture a guess if the reason is content-based or due to the skill of the primary healer, if there is any? (Easy/hard content - skilled/unskilled healer, etc.)

On the same track, I'm assuming you're primarily a tank and not so much a controller, based on your post. Do other team-members handle the CC's, either a dedicated controller or free-for-all, or do you commonly run without? If so, how would a controller benefit you in groups, if at all? (Seeing as they would replace another char)

And how would you prioritize the skill-investiture, while leveling, based on your experience?

On the subject of tanks, would you consider one type more useful than another? Are there a significant number of one kind over the other in your experience? And would you venture an opinion on when one kind would be more useful than another? (I imagine pugging, as an example, must be a lot different than running with an experienced team)

Bear in mind i'm only level 31, I've done all the dungeons up to that point, but that's not saying much. Also I've only ever run PUGs , so a guild run might be different.

1. Offhealing - It depends on the level of the group ofc. If we all significantly outlevel the instance, not much. On level, I feel my insta-cast, single target heal prevents a lot of deaths and wipes when a damage spike occurs. It's extra burst healing capability, even though a cloth wearing, mana hogging healbot may be able to heal twice as long as I am before going out of power.

2. CC isn't necessary to complete any of the dungeons I've run so far. I don't think I've grouped with a CC yet. I occasionally get to use my CC when a trash pull consists of the Undead/Daedra mob type. Trash pulls look pretty chaotic and are generally a free-for-all, but I do my best to help with CC, tanking and heals. If I didn't have my healing capability, and if we weren't overlevel, then someone with buffs/cc would be needed or you'd have some deaths.

4. The majority of tanks seem to have a dps secondary role. I've seen quite a few dragonknight ones, who can conjure a cloud of rocks around themselves and their team-mates (buffs their armour). I've not seen another tank/healer other than myself in-game.

Levelling build -

Honestly my only regrets are wasting skill points on things I never use. If I had to start over i'd still get my tank/heal abilities up first because it lets me get used to supporting people early on out on the landscape, and the combination of having a 15 second force taunt with an instant cast heal allows you to save people very efficiently. It works for soloing too ofc, most of the time you're hard to beat, if a little slow. Waste less skill points and you can get a dps ability earlier.

Sword and Shield Skills

Ransack

15 sec forcetaunt - the rest in this line are situational at best, a waste of stamina at worst

Templar Class Skill Heals

Rushed Ceremony ->Honour the Dead (upgrade ASAP!)

The instant cast heal that doesn't require me to have a staff equipped. The upgrade version gives a 66% power rebate if the target is below 50% health.

The rest in this line take too long to cast to use when fighting in melee, I've not really used any of the others.

Restoration Staff Skills

Regeneration - my most used skill, because I put this heal over time on before pulling.

Grand Healing - an area effect heal over time, can be used in the trash pulls if you wanna go heal mode.

I've not used the rest, they are mostly about healing the people in front of you however as a tank-heal i'll be at the front!

DPS

Sun Fire (Templar class skill)

When soloing difficult content , my magika pool is entirely used for healing. But in easier situations, there is no need, and the magika goes unused while you drain stamina with attacks. This is a DOT spell cast from magika pool, makes things less tedious and gives me a ranged attack option. As a tank, fights last a long time, so DoTs to wear an opponent down are more effective than they are for a glass cannon, kill it before it kills me character.

Kayvee · April 2014

So I'm only level 35 thus far.

I've put all of my attribute points in Magicka.

The two weapons I used/use are a destruction staff and a restoration staff. I started the game doing destro staff because I thought I was going to be a pyromancer/off-healer but after looking more into the restoration tree, after a sorc friend told me about Cycle of Life, I switched over to that. With Cycle of Life and Inner Light from the Mages Guild skill line the damage I can put out is insane.

My damage abilities are all from the Ardent Flame tree, I use:
Standard of Might for my Ultimate
Englufing Flames as my opener
Burning Embers as my second attack (unless it's a large pack then I activate Inferno - not sure which morph to go with yet - and BE mobs individually)
Lava Whip - probably going to go with Molten Whip for morph - until EF needs to be reapplied.
Inner Light is always on.

Since I went with DK instead of Templar all of my healing abilities have to come from the resto staff skill line.
Standard of Might is still my Ultimate
Keep Rapid Regeneration ticking on everyone basically always, it helps build ultimate quickly.
Blessing of Protection to increase Armor and Spell Res for everyone plus get off a decent, quick heal. Really stumped on the morph for this one, increased healing and a bigger AoE with Blessing of Restoration is a nice quality of life improvement but Combat Prayer increases the damage of everyone you hit with it which can be astounding.
Grand Healing for quick health regen after damage spikes (you can cast it like 3 times in a row and it does INSANE amounts of healing.) Not sure what to do for the morph here either, but leaning toward Healing Springs.
Steadfast Ward is good to pop on someone when they're close to dying to give you a couple second buffer to top them off. Leaning toward Healing Ward morph for mana efficiency.
I don't have Force Siphon unlocked yet, but it sounds awesome! Planning on going with Siphon Spirit morph when available. Until then, I have been using Annulment which is the Light Armor ability that gives you a damage absorption shield that also decreases spell damage taken. Unsure of how to morph this one right now too, and not sure I'll continue using it in the future. The lack of this ability may make me choose to go with Ward Ally morph instead of Healing Ward, but probably not as the ability will default to you if there isn't another ally available anyway.

While I never intended to be a damage-taker it has seemed to me that healing generates the most aggro. So Rapid Regeneration constantly ticking and the mitigation from Annulment and Blessing of Protection do help quite a bit.

While healing, when I'm ready to drop my ultimate I will swap over to my dps skillset, pop Inner Light, use Engulfing Flames and then drop it for maximum effect.

When I was catching the resto staff up I would slot as many resto abilities as I could and have the resto staff with the training trait equipped when I turned quests in to get it leveled nice and quick. Now that they're roughly equal I alternate when turning in quests.

When I fly solo, I blend the two builds together and I keep Rapid Regeneration, Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers and Inner Light and then swap the 5th ability around between Lava Whip, Blessing of Protection and Annulment.

Hope that helps!

AlienPrimate · April 2014

If you are going for a pure support build, I can help there. A pure healer is all I have played as in ESO and every group I have been in for dungeons say that I am the best healer they have ever had. This is not because I'm all that good at it, it is just because I focus my build on only healing rather than using points elsewhere. I have a templar with restoration staff and light armor with points put into magicka at every level up except for when it is overcharged. I put all of my skill points into restoring light, restoration staff, light armor, and crafting.

My primary skill set with reasoning:

1. Cleansing ritual => Purifying Ritual: Allows you to remove all debuffs from your whole party for little cost and heals for a decent amount per 2 seconds. You should always have this up in fights. It allows your allies to use their own discretion on the synergy called purify which heals for quite a bit and removes debuffs. I like it because your allies can heal themselves without you having to expend more magicka to try to target a single ally.

2. Greater ward => Healing ward: This is the most important ability for any healer to have on their bar in my opinion. Most of the healing skills in ESO are either channeled and take to affect an ally or have over time healing. While these skills are very valuable, they can't save someone who is very near death. The healing ward will heal then a small amount and put a massive shield on them for 6 seconds. By the end of the 6 seconds, if they got out of the enemy aggro and still have the shield, it heals them for the amount of the shield remaining plus what ever healing they received during the 6 seconds. It would just be stupid to not use ward as a healer when it can save allies from certain death when no other skill could do that except rushed ceremony. Rushed ceremony is way to costly to use over a long fight though.

3. Blessing of Protection => Combat Prayer: Now comes your buff. Combat prayer heals all allies standing in front of you as well as massively boosting their spell resistance and armor. In all light armor, my armor and magic resistance are both over charged after using combat prayer. Their attack damage is also boosted by 10% for 8 seconds. In a tough fight, you should be using this on your team every 8 seconds for obvious reasons.

4. Regeneration => Rapid Regeneration: Regeneration heals your allies over time and should always be kept on all of your allies. At the rank I am at now, my hp regeneration is 16 and rapid regeneration boosts that to 69.8. For very little cost, you can add great amounts to your health regeneration, saving you magicka from expensive heals in the long run.

5. Healing Ritual => Lingering Ritual: This is the spell that I always follow up on the ward. It heals for a large amount on all of your nearby allies and costs very little to use. It also heals you for a massive amount. The lingering on it is sometimes useless, but it saves magicka in the long run when you get a small free heal after 8 seconds.

6. Rite of Passage => Practiced Incantation: This is a great thing to have when it is needed, but I rarely have use for it because the skill bar set up keeps my allies alive pretty easy as is. The only time that I use my ultimate is when I am out of magicka, or when I was just revived by an ally and have no magicka or health (you rarely die as a healer). It easily allows you to keep your whole party alive while you regenerate magicka for 6 seconds. It practically makes your whole party invincible while you are channeling unless anyone can be instakilled by some enemy's ability.

The secondary weapon and skill set is up to you, because if you plan on supporting, this primary set is all you should ever need.

Ask me if you want more information, because it is well past when I should be sleeping right now and I'm not adding any more to it.

DogeRobert · May 2014

Oops, sorry for not getting the replies in earlier. And thank you for replying and joining. :-)

Jesterstear and Kayvee:

Again, thank you both for replying. :-)

It seems to me that both of you favor healing as a secondary powerset rather than CC'ing and that group content, as far as you describe it, needs healing and damage mitigation far more than actively controlling the battlefield.

What I seem to glean from you are, that a five-man team with a tank/offhealer, 3 damage-dealers (with whatever secondaries they bring to the table) and a primary healer would be the best basic setup for the group content you have experienced. Of course bearing in mind that later content may require a higher focus on CC and that I should keep it in mind, though maybe not in my hotbars.

I really appreciate your thoughts on setup and improvement and I'm going to keep both of them in mind, when I design my char.

At the moment, I've been leveling up both a templar and DK to level 16-17, though the lack of dedicated healers seem to be a detriment to running dungeons at the time being. (Surprise, surprise ;-) ) The experiences are different, but I haven't exactly figured out yet, what strengths each class brings to the battlefield.

What would be your respective thoughts on the different strengths of the Templar versus the DK, seeing as you have differing experiences and far more than me?

So far, from what I read here, it seems that the Templar has an edge in healing because of the insta-heals, though that may merely be a question of style. The DK seems to have more options for CC, but if that is not needed as much at this time, are there other things, apart from personal preference, that gives the DK an edge in a given area? Kay focuses more on damage than Jester does, as far as I can see, but is that symptomatic of the class or merely a style of play?

I am not trying to start a what-class-is-best discussion. But I'm trying to figure out where the strengths of each class lie, so I have an easier time figuring out, which class I should choose to focus on. :-)

Honestly, with what I have in mind, I can't continue running on of each (fool as I am, I made them both in the same alliance), without soon getting extremely disheartened by the similarities in both game content and overall play-style. So I really appreciate you helping me out here. :-)

AlienPrimate:

First of all, welcome to the discussion and I apologize for not replying for a few days. :-)

I really appreciate you posting, as you add something entirely different than what we're already discussing, which is always welcome.

I do have some questions though. :-)

1) As a dedicated healer, how much support/offhealing do you see from other groupmembers and how much of a difference does it make, if/when someone uses it actively, versus when nobody does? (I know this depends on the skilllevel of the group, but I'd like an opinion)

2) Do you ever feel able /the need to swap to control or damage or does your setup allow the remaining group to focus enough on that to allow you not to?

3) How is your experience leveling up your char, when your primary focus is healing? It seems group-content is far between, when leveling, and I cannot see running a full heal-setup is viable when soloing. So what kind of solo-setup do you run with?

4) What are your thoughts on a dedicated healer build based on the templar versus the other classes? (Class healing versus relying on the resto staff for the heals themselves) I don't want to focus this thread solely around healing, but I've been a healer before (other games) and likely will again.

5) What kind of tank/controller do you prefer in a group, where you run as the dedicated healer? and most importantly, why? ;-)

And feel free to add anything that comes to mind. :-)

AlienPrimate · May 2014

1) The only heal that has ever been effective with me in a group is if there are 2 or 3 melee's on the team with one of them being a templar. Having 3 melee allies is just foolish though, so this group probably won't work that great anyways. If you have a templar tank and a melee dps, the healing the tank can do can be helpful. However, most of the time added heals are just a waste of a skill slot for allies.

2) This setup allows my allies to focus on damage without worrying about their own health. You should only be focusing on hitting priority targets with your heavy attack when in a team situation to restore your magicka for more heals.

3) I only make 2 changes to my build when I solo. I trade Cleansing ritual and healing ritual for restoring aura and rushed ceremony.
Restoring aura gives you a massive boost to stamina and health regeneration. I like to always have it on while exploring because you can sprint about twice as long. It also helps in fights by raising your health regeneration by 80%
Note: do not waste skill point to upgrade this ability
Rushed ceremony is better in a solo situation because using ward and then healing ritual is more expensive than just using rushed ceremony, but I will still use ward and rushed ceremony to get almost full health from very little health.

I will occasionally trade regeneration for trapping webs. This is only when I am facing mobs that are quick and deal massive amounts of burst damage. I thought to try this after the first mob that I ever had trouble with killed me by itself. This was a troll. After looking through my skills, I thought that a snare would be worth a try and it was very effective. The snare makes it so they can't stay within range for you to have need for regeneration.

Most people think that you can't solo as a pure healer because they "deal no damage." I beg to differ. If you focus on woodworking and spend the majority of your money on crafting staffs, you will find that a restoration staff can have the most damage output out of any weapon. You have to remember that they deal the same amount of damage as two handed swords and bows do. All you need to do is get the cycle of life passive to rank 2 and frequently use combat prayer to increase your weapon damage by 20%. This is something that no other weapon can have when soloing. Basically, for every 5 attacks you do, you get a free hit in. You also have to remember that with a good damaging enchantment on your staff, you will deal damage faster by using normal attacks rather than heavy attacks.

A little tip for free experience and loot when soloing: If you are in an area with a lot of people and feel that you are missing out on some of the experience or loot, you can just cast regeneration on a few people. Anything they kill will count as a kill for you while they are being affected by regeneration.

Another thing I thought I should mention about soloing is that there are many quests that people in my guild complain about being too hard that I thought were extremely easy. A couple examples are killing Doshia for the fighter's guild and the two bosses for the veil falls in the Aldmiri Dominion quest line. Nearly all of the bosses have been really easy as a healer. The only downfall is that it does take a little more time to kill bosses using only basic attacks.

4) I would say that if you are going for a dedicated healer, not a hybrid healer, than the only choice would be templar. The abilities that restoring light gives you far out way any benefits that the other classes can give you as a dedicated healer. The biggest benefit from being a templar healer is that with cleansing ritual active, all of your heals including your restoration staff skills heal for 30% more to all allies standing within cleansing ritual.

5) I prefer to have a dragon knight with sword and board for a tank. I like them because their snares and ability to taunt bosses. With them keeping the bosses attention on themselves, the dps's and myself can switch focus between the adds and the boss freely without fear of the boss coming for us. This being said, some of my most effective groups have been to just have 3 dps's. With a dedicated healer build and a massive armor/spell resist boost for my whole group, often times a tank is not necessary. The best group for anyone following this build is probably a sorcerer, archer of any class, and duel wield nightblade. If they all stick close to you, they should have no problems staying alive.

I forgot to mention this earlier. Be sure to get activate ritual stone as a healer. It will increase the amount of healing you do.

One more thing to add: Against bosses, using force siphon on the secondary bar can be very helpful as it lasts for a long time and works like regeneration (lowering magicka cost in the long run by providing sustained healing). If you put another restoration staff in your secondary bar, you can switch to it to use force siphon and quickly switch back after targeting the boss with it.