TOT Reaching Unfun & Canned Territory

Personofsecrets · September 2022

I think that we have reached the critical mass of players who are playing TOT daily and understand that an extremly small early advantage can be easily exploited into a hard winning position. There isn't enough counterplay to these small advantages and it feels like more than ever before that the first couple of tavern purchases are deciding games. Without counterplay, is there really a point of having PVP?

Rajhin is more unfun than ever. Yes, that class had some buffs, but I think that people just realized how easily the patron ability allows one to exploit an early advantage. I've played against several players that realize they can just spam the Rajhin patron button after getting even just one meaningful card, looking at you Pounce and Profit, and I've done the same.

I've noticed Delmene being a first pick more than ever. Perhaps because the first player getting a Luxury Exports first turn can more often than not be crippling.

Wasn't Orgnum going to be improved somehow? When one of my opponents happens to choose Orgnum, I find out that the Patron's press it and forget it style apparently is still a thing. I'm happy that people rarely choose this patron, but an archetypes use rate should never be a justification for that archetype not being well designed.

And even pushing Rally to 8 gold seems like it was a choice that inadvertantly pushed the game into this direction. Before, if the opponent picked up an early meaningful card, then maybe I could still hope to get 7 gold for the Rally in the Tavern, but now that can't really happen and that meaningful card means that they get the first chance to buy Rally. I wouldn't even ever design a card like Rally, but regardless, it could be healthier for the overall game if it cost 7.

I think a solution to the above issues is to make economy boosting cards cost more and increase the size of the tavern to 7 cards. As things are now, I can't help but to feel extremly little agency over game outcomes. I've concsiously not wanted to make a "TOT has many poor design aspects" since the first season. I've been pretty open minded with the game, but the current way of playing has made the games underlying problems, like not having enough relevant counterplay options or first player advantage, codify themselves as real and frequently ocurring.

Neoauspex · September 2022

I find that I can still overcome an opponent that gets an early advantage by either paring my deck better than them or putting pressure on them with Patrons. If my opponent takes luxury exports first turn but I can delete a gold and upgrade a gold, I consider that pretty close to a wash. If my opponent gets midnight raid/siege/etc first turn, that's a little harder to overcome in my opinion... But I had a game yesterday where a guy got 2 midnight raids before I got any meaningful power cards and all it took was a timely tithe.

El_Borracho · September 2022

@Neoauspex I have the same experience. I'm somewhat torn on what they did to Rally. While it removes the crap-shoot/race to 7 gold when it appears early, they just made Armory what Rally used to be. Midnight Raid, Luxury Exports, Pounce and Profit, Grand Larceny, and the beast, Currency Exchange, are still RNG killers when they show up early. Its got to the point where I prefer the Crow deck because at least it gives you a chance to go on a run and overcome an opponent who got Rally with Armory, Reinforcements, etc.

I don't know what the answer is. I don't want to make everything so expensive its just passing turns back and forth, nor do I want to make every deck the same. But some of these cards are very hard to overcome if you find yourself on the bad end of RNG. For example, why is Currency Exchange 7 when House Marketplace/Embassy is 8? Seems backwards.

Maybe more contact action cards so it lessens the impact? I know I am very hesitant to use leftover gold on a turn to flip a card like Ragpicker or Black Sacrament for fear of seeing something like Rally replace it.

ZOS_Kevin · September 2022

Thanks for the feedback here, all. Looking to get any other opinions around this issue as well. Happy to pass constructive feedback along to help the Tales of Tribute team.

spartaxoxo · September 2022

I agree that they really need to take a hard look at the early game cards in particular. As it stands now the first person to 7 coin or whoever gets an early game big deal card is going to have a massive advantage that can be truly difficult to overcome.

I don't know the solution, but late game cards almost don't feel like they matter because of how powerful some of the early coin cards are.

As for Hlallu, I usually pick it first because it's patron power feels like the only counter to something like someone getting Rally early.

Zyva · September 2022

I agree so much with the first post here.

It feels like whoever gets those first 'super' cards wins, unless they just don't understand the game. And when the only way to win is to trick them with a patron rush they don't see and a rng-tithe...

I just don't enjoy it. Once I understood what was going on, any like for it evaporated. I'm getting my achievements then getting out.

Rooatouille · September 2022

I agree with much of what the OP is saying and do think we're due for some changes. However, my guild of about 40 players at the moment has members from all levels of play and I do think we're still due for new players coming into the game.

We have to remember that the game is still only available to players who own the High Isle DLC and there's a good number of players out there that do not have it. As more players acquire the DLC, new players naturally come to ToT. New players would certainly help spice things up as we have more new, learning players as well as new thought processes coming to the game, but I do agree with the fundamental idea of the OP.

I would like to see how things would look with changes to economy-boosting cards, but I also worry about that slowing the game down more. There are already times where the game just turns into activating treasury and passing the turn back and forth waiting for whoever blinks first or whoever gets a good replacement card after their opponent finally makes a move. I love the game and want to see it reach a balanced state, and, while I have some ideas as to how things could be changed, I'm not 100% things were better before the patch changes.

Maybe what we need is a combination of both balance changes and new decks altogether?

kevkj · September 2022

The one thing I can agree on is expanding the Tavern by at least one card, if not two. Games too often end up being a slow death as the person with the early advantage just stalls out the tavern (which is the correct/safe thing to do).

sekou_trayvond · September 2022

My take is of the more YMMV variety, I suppose, as I find the game quite engaging here in Season 3.

I have encountered the Rajiin strategy that OP notes- get an early power card and then bury your opponent in bewilderments. It's a riff on the *** spam, to be sure. Crows matches can also fall into this where everything becomes about obtaining Bird cards or denying your opponent bird cards.

That being said, I can bring Pelin to the table, as I often do, and win comfortably without so much as sniffing an Armory or Rally. Or lose horribly....but that's another story

For me, every match still feels different. Again, that may just be me and my approach to matches.

But OP does have a point about more counterplay. I'm obviously not going to turn away more options. New decks are probably needed at this point (fingers crossed for something in Firesong). Opening up ToT to everyone would be wise as well.

Enlarged tavern? Maybe. To me this just seems to guarantee that both players have adequate shiny cards, which is fine, in of itself, but I would caution against making changes that lengthen match time. If we're both tossing out power bombs every turn then it's just who ever gets to whatever score threshold first wins- not terribly different than current spam strategies. Or opposite, make the shinies notably expensive and it's a slog to get to them. Balance is tricky. And perhaps illusive.

Right now my ranked matches average ~10 minutes per match which feels about right. Quick, engaging and if you're experiencing a beat down, a short turnaround to get on to the next one. Even 15 minutes/match would be quite a swing. Beyond that is darn near interminable.

Lastly, shout out to Rooatouille and his ToT guild- very enjoyable way to engage with those who enjoy our funky, and unexpected, card game. Highly recommended to any interested on PC NA.

agelonestar · September 2022

If I’d wanted to play a card game, I’d have bought a card game.

It’s overly complex, it doesn’t fit the game, and it’s dull as anything.

BahometZ · September 2022

agelonestar wrote: »

If I’d wanted to play a card game, I’d have bought a card game.

It’s overly complex, it doesn’t fit the game, and it’s dull as anything.

Yeah, tbh, I wanted to give it a chance but I find myself agreeing with this. The only reason I've really persevered with it was to get achievements, and the PvP experience has been frustrating at best, even when winning most games.

It's also frustrating how many resources have been put into this, when so many things need attention in other aspects of the game. And how long before the card game becomes an untouched relic?

spartaxoxo · September 2022

https://youtu.be/VMv5zLvTB2M

I think this is a pretty good example of how someone who got a couple early game cards can end up with a hard winning position. The person in this video was already halfway to victory before I could really counter play it due to not getting an early hand of similar strength.

joergino · September 2022

BahometZ wrote: »

agelonestar wrote: »

If I’d wanted to play a card game, I’d have bought a card game.

It’s overly complex, it doesn’t fit the game, and it’s dull as anything.

Yeah, tbh, I wanted to give it a chance but I find myself agreeing with this. The only reason I've really persevered with it was to get achievements, and the PvP experience has been frustrating at best, even when winning most games.

It's also frustrating how many resources have been put into this, when so many things need attention in other aspects of the game. And how long before the card game becomes an untouched relic?

Same here. I got the last achievement yesterday and I am glad that this card game will no longer distract me from playing the actual game in my rather limited time. Getting the 100 PvP matches was very annoying to say the least. Playing against the NPCs wasn't always fun either, but at least these matches didn't take as much time as the PvP ones did.

Neoauspex · September 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

https://youtu.be/VMv5zLvTB2M

I think this is a pretty good example of how someone who got a couple early game cards can end up with a hard winning position. The person in this video was already halfway to victory before I could really counter play it due to not getting an early hand of similar strength.

Definitely bad luck that the second Midnight Raid came up after you took Prophecy. Without the Duke of Crows deck in the game there's very little chance of overcoming that. However, you converted your black 1 power card into 2g instead of the red one and consistently removed deck pruning black cards from the tavern. The Elder Witch card is more powerful than Midnight Raid, especially with the Hlaalu patron available for sacrifice. If you'd been able to prune coin cards out of your deck and convert/destroy the red 1 power card, the rally/dream cave would've been enough to overcome the midnight raids. You just have to make sure you get them more frequently. Deck pruning is king.

spartaxoxo · September 2022

Neoauspex wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

https://youtu.be/VMv5zLvTB2M

I think this is a pretty good example of how someone who got a couple early game cards can end up with a hard winning position. The person in this video was already halfway to victory before I could really counter play it due to not getting an early hand of similar strength.

Definitely bad luck that the second Midnight Raid came up after you took Prophecy. Without the Duke of Crows deck in the game there's very little chance of overcoming that. However, you converted your black 1 power card into 2g instead of the red one and consistently removed deck pruning black cards from the tavern. The Elder Witch card is more powerful than Midnight Raid, especially with the Hlaalu patron available for sacrifice. If you'd been able to prune coin cards out of your deck and convert/destroy the red 1 power card, the rally/dream cave would've been enough to overcome the midnight raids. You just have to make sure you get them more frequently. Deck pruning is king.

I'm aware of the strength of pruning. Elder Witch does not give power. I'd have gotten an 9 additional power if I could have done another Rally and Cove. Which would not have been enough to win.

On the turn I removed the black power card, my choices were to convert a coin or the black card. The black card was the better choice, to ensure that I didn't get another two 1 power card turn. Even if somehow the game had continued past this turn, I'd not have gotten additional uses out of Rally as I would have had to sacrifice to stay in the match.

Neoauspex · September 2022

@spartaxoxo sorry I should have said "might have" been able to overpower because, yes if you got them really late then it wouldn't matter. And again, without the purple deck two early Midnight Raids is pretty unlikely to be beaten. But to my point, whenever I see my opponent pass up deck pruning cards early, I know I'm gonna win. The tough question, had you grabbed Elder Witch as soon as possible, is if you prune one card and immediately Hlaalu it for prestige or if you risk leaving it to prune more cards in subsequent turns. If I'm playing early in a season I usually risk it, if I'm ranked in top 100 or know the opponent is good I'll sacrifice it because my opponent will (and should) prioritize killing it.

Neoauspex · September 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

On the turn I removed the black power card, my choices were to convert a coin or the black card. The black card was the better choice, to ensure that I didn't get another two 1 power card turn. Even if somehow the game had continued past this turn, I'd not have gotten additional uses out of Rally as I would have had to sacrifice to stay in the match.

Meant to add: The reason I don't ever convert the black 1 power card is because it makes the black archer cards extremely powerful (power and pruning). Also provides draw 1 card synergy for Blood Offering (or the other instant prune black card can't remember which). But I still agree with you, it probably wouldn't matter against two Midnight Raids in two turns.

spartaxoxo · September 2022

Neoauspex wrote: »

l sorry I should have said "might have" been able to overpower because, yes if you got them really late then it wouldn't matter. And again, without the purple deck two early Midnight Raids is pretty unlikely to be beaten. But to my point, whenever I see my opponent pass up deck pruning cards early, I know I'm gonna win. The tough question, had you grabbed Elder Witch as soon as possible, is if you prune one card and immediately Hlaalu it for prestige or if you risk leaving it to prune more cards in subsequent turns. If I'm playing early in a season I usually risk it, if I'm ranked in top 100 or know the opponent is good I'll sacrifice it because my opponent will (and should) prioritize killing it.

Oh. That's understandable. I usually go for them myself for the exact reasons you mentioned. The reason I didn't in this particular game is because I realized my only chance of winning was getting my coins up to 7 as fast as possible and churning as much as I could in the hopes of getting some kind of power cards (while sacrificing contract agents on turns I couldn't). If I had gotten Rally earlier, I most definitely would have been all over the deck pruning. But in this particular game, it wouldn't have mattered as the total power still would have been below the amount I needed since despite my churning I didn't get power cards until it was already over.

The opponent was also basically not churning the tavern at all, instead choosing to hold onto their big early turn advantage since crows weren't out. In fact, I don't think they bought a single non-contract card after those two at all, so as not to clutter their deck. Which, they could have won more easily had they been pruning their deck. When I chose to buy cove, they should have bought Witch, really. But the early card advantage was so strong this didn't matter, and I am left scrambling to makeup a massive disadvantage on my second chance to play.

spartaxoxo · September 2022

Neoauspex wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

On the turn I removed the black power card, my choices were to convert a coin or the black card. The black card was the better choice, to ensure that I didn't get another two 1 power card turn. Even if somehow the game had continued past this turn, I'd not have gotten additional uses out of Rally as I would have had to sacrifice to stay in the match.

Meant to add: The reason I don't ever convert the black 1 power card is because it makes the black archer cards extremely powerful (power and pruning). Also provides draw 1 card synergy for Blood Offering (or the other instant prune black card can't remember which). But I still agree with you, it probably wouldn't matter against two Midnight Raids in two turns.

I'm actually usually the same way! I have the video sped up 2x but there was a pause there while I considered whether I risked keeping it to combo later, or destroy it to ensure I can buy cards. In the end I decided since Midnight Raid combos were likely off the table, and pruning was too great a risk since the Tavern was not giving me anything useful it was better to sacrifice it. But, my favorite part of Red Eagle is generally how powerful the pruning technique is. You're 100% correct it was a risky move and that card is great for combos.

Neoauspex · September 2022

They just announced a new deck on ESO Live so get ready to rebalance everything we just discussed haha.

CaptainVenom · September 2022

agelonestar wrote: »

If I’d wanted to play a card game, I’d have bought a card game.

It’s overly complex, it doesn’t fit the game, and it’s dull as anything.

Forgot to mention "luck based". The whole ToT concept is poorly designed, actually. Here I though we could customize and use our own decks like Magic at very least. Instead, the matches are extremely luck based, where it should have been skill.