"We’ve heard your cries, Heavy Attack build lovers, and we want better for you"

Lalothen · September 2022

Having been able to properly test out HA builds on the PC Live servers - i.e. in actual solo & group content without a super-buffed dummy inflating the numbers - U35 has fallen appreciably short of the ostensible intention of this statement. It's clear that the following have fundamentally negated any "love" you have given to HA builds in U35:

1) Reduction of the Lightning staff HA channel from 3 tics to 2 - this is a significant DPS loss and we still haven't had any clarification of whether it's intended or a bug.

2) Changing Crushing Wall - this took away another flat damage buff that HA builds have always relied on to produce reasonable DPS. This has not been replaced by anything else.

3) Infallible Mage set - the HA-themed DPS trial set - has not received any love at all.

The result is that the bastardised semi-HA builds that were doing okay before U35 are no longer viable, and switching up sets to go all-out HA simply isn't producing enough DPS. LA builds, on the other hand, are hitting close to their pre-U35 numbers with a few minor tweaks. I'm even seeing people in my regular trial group hitting harder with their LA builds than before, which to me is like rubbing salt in the wound.

I said this back during the early stages of the U35 PTS: I'd be happy to see HA builds peaking at around 15% less than LA builds in actual content. The reality at the moment, is that they're peaking too low - and it's not only a worse situation for solo players, it's worse for any group with one or more HA build users contributing to DPS. You said you wanted better for us, yet currently you've left us in a worse state than before U35. The change to Empower, buffing the Weapons Expert constellation, returning numerous HA themed sets back to flat damage buffs & improving two of them (The changes to Noble Duelist's Silks & Sergeant's Mail put them both in a really good spot in my opinion) are good changes for the HA playstyle, but it's essentially wasted developer time if you're not going to adequately make up for losses accrued as a result of other changes that have been made.

All this said, it's not too hard to fix:

Clarify that the lightning staff channeled tic reduction is either intended or a bug - and if it's a bug, please fix it.
More of a micro-management thing, but please increase the duration of the Sergeant's Mail buff to 10s so it's more forgiving when it comes to the back bar portion of a rotation.
Make up the DPS lost with the change to Crushing Wall. You could do this in a variety of different ways actually, such as picking one from the following:

a) Increase the base damage of HAs by a percentage.

b) Change an under-utilised arena weapon - the Blackrose destruction staff, for example - to essentially provide the same flat buff. You could even keep it attached to Impulse:
Wild Impulse
LEVEL 50 champion CHAMPION 160
(2 items) Reduce the cost of Impulse by 10%. Impulse places a lingering weakness on all targets hit, increasing their damage taken from Heavy Attacks by 1000 for 15s.

c) Increase the flat damage buff provided by all HA-themed set 5-pieces by around 500 each (meaning an extra 1000 base utilising 2 HA-themed sets).

d) Make up the lost damage by giving some much-needed love to the Infallible Mage set:
Infallible Mage
LEVEL 50 champion CHAMPION 160
(2 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(3 items) Grants Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon Trial and Arena Monsters by 5%.
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) Your Heavy Attacks against monsters deal an additional 2000 damage.
(5 items) Grants Empower buff.

Buffing Infallible Mage this way would place it as the go-to "endgame" set for HA build players - especially if wearing 5 pieces granted the wearer Empower. It would also make it viable to wear with Oakensoul without necessarily making it the best option in that particular instance.

HA builds can fairly easily be shunted into that sweet spot where they're great as accessibility builds, adequately viable for endgame content, but are still peaking far enough behind more demanding LA builds - and just as importantly the time spent making changes specifically to HA builds to improve their output potential won't have been wasted.

Zodiarkslayer · September 2022

HA from Lightning Staffs went up in DPS , not down. Because one, they get the new empower bonus to the fully charged damage part; two, the length of the attack is shorter and three, the window for heavy attacking in a rotation is much bigger, because of longer duration DoTs.

While the damage per attack is admittedly lower, the resulting DPS is slightly higher. That is especially pronounced the longer the rotation is.

I think ZOS stated that the changes to all weapon's heavy attacks lenghts were to standardize (or harmonize) the overall damage per second, under the new conditions.

Lalothen · September 2022

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

HA from Lightning Staffs went up in DPS , not down. Because one, they get the new empower bonus to the fully charged damage part; two, the length of the attack is shorter and three, the window for heavy attacking in a rotation is much bigger, because of longer duration DoTs.

This isn't true in practice.

1) Whilst the Empower buff does work over the duration of the channel, the additional 40% buff does not:

a) compensate for the loss of a channeled lightning HA tic - which equates to approx. 16.7% DPS lost from the fully charged HA. Note this is base damage loss; when you start factoring in HA set buffs, Empower, etc, the overall percentage loss is higher.
b) compensate for the loss of additional base damage provided by the previous iteration of Crushing Wall.
c) on a lesser note, compensate for the loss of 40% from LAs & the lower stat scaling on LAs - and LAs do make up a part of two-bar HA build rotations.

2) Attack duration of the lightning staff channel is 1800ms, long enough to lock out 2 basic attack GCDs (plus the 1 skill GCD sacrificed during the staff channel). This, as far as I'm aware, is no different to pre-U35.

3) The window is not bigger unless you're using all sticky DoTs, and not only is that ill-advised from an optimium ST DPS standpoint, it also constitutes a significant loss of AoE cleave potential from lack of ground AoE DoTs - which is an important factor in a lot of encounters.

Zodiarkslayer · September 2022

Not sure what to say here. Heavy attack playstyle is in the best spot since CP2.0 got introduced in U29. Well, in my opinion at least.

My MagSorc HA setup with Oakensoul, Undaunted Unweaver and Noble Duelist is producing almost 50k on the 6mil Dummy (self buffed and debuffed, because I play the setup solo). A friend talked on the guild discord about how easily he got to almost 70k on the Trial Dummy by holding down just one (!) button. There have been similar posts by other players here on the forum.

So maybe it is a matter of perspective. Sure, in comparison to U34 some parts of the heavy attack playstyle have been nerfed. No doubt.
I got the feeling, everything got nerfed. So why dwell on it?
Heavy attacks in general got restructured (Are you sure Lightning HA didn't get shorter? I could swear they were three GCDs long, when I last played HA setup actively, pre U29).
But there are buffs, too now! If we utilize them correctly, we can see the overall better results.

jaws343 · September 2022

Lalothen wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

HA from Lightning Staffs went up in DPS , not down. Because one, they get the new empower bonus to the fully charged damage part; two, the length of the attack is shorter and three, the window for heavy attacking in a rotation is much bigger, because of longer duration DoTs.

This isn't true in practice.

1) Whilst the Empower buff does work over the duration of the channel, the additional 40% buff does not:
a) compensate for the loss of a channeled lightning HA tic - which equates to approx. 16.7% DPS lost from the fully charged HA. Note this is base damage loss; when you start factoring in HA set buffs, Empower, etc, the overall percentage loss is higher.

b) compensate for the loss of additional base damage provided by the previous iteration of Crushing Wall.

c) on a lesser note, compensate for the loss of 40% from LAs & the lower stat scaling on LAs - and LAs do make up a part of two-bar HA build rotations.

2) Attack duration of the lightning staff channel is 1800ms, long enough to lock out 2 basic attack GCDs (plus the 1 skill GCD sacrificed during the staff channel). This, as far as I'm aware, is no different to pre-U35.

3) The window is not bigger unless you're using all sticky DoTs, and not only is that ill-advised from an optimium ST DPS standpoint, it also constitutes a significant loss of AoE cleave potential from lack of ground AoE DoTs - which is an important factor in a lot of encounters.

I am fairly certain the empower buff not working on channels is false.

"Note that this bonus does not apply to partially charged Heavy Attacks, only fully charged Heavy Attacks or channeled Heavy Attacks."

It applies to fully charged heavies and channeled heavies. Which, by it being intentionally separated, means that all ticks get the bonus damage through the channel, not just the fully charged portion.

Lalothen · September 2022

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

My MagSorc HA setup with Oakensoul, Undaunted Unweaver and Noble Duelist is producing almost 50k on the 6mil Dummy (self buffed and debuffed, because I play the setup solo). A friend talked on the guild discord about how easily he got to almost 70k on the Trial Dummy by holding down just one (!) button. There have been similar posts by other players here on the forum.

Two caveats there: Oakensoul and Sorc:

1) Expert Mage means you're sitting on +12% wpd/spd (assuming you're using a bar full of sorc skills)
2) Energized is increasing your base shock dmg by a further 5%.
3) You're likely to be using both pets for passive sticky DoT damage; Familiar's activation period has been doubled, and Tormentor only requires activation to 50%. Add the fact that Daedric Prey has been buffed by 125% compared to U34, and they're a significant source of DPS requiring significantly less activation management.

Sorc is essentially the optimum class for a one-bar Oakensoul setup involving "spending as much time HAing as possible". Step outside the OakenSorc box and it's a fairly different story though, and one would presume the HA style isn't supposed to be pigeonholed like that.

Sure, it's fun HA-spamming the dummy and seeing 70k DPS, but that's not really representative of anything realistic. The dummy presents a highly optimised trial scenario and for HA builds moreso than any other, standing there just parsing without having to worry about mechanics provides a false impression of what they are capable of in actual content. This is why I wrote "Having been able to properly test out HA builds on the PC Live servers - i.e. in actual solo & group content without a super-buffed dummy inflating the numbers" in my original post.

The way things have been reshuffled means the floor for HA builds has been raised because more of their DPS potential is loaded into the HAs themselves, which is a good thing. The ceiling, however, remains too far from the ceiling for LA builds - and from my perspective that's not a good thing.

I got the feeling, everything got nerfed. So why dwell on it?

I dwell on it because the style was supposed to see overall improvement, yet as I already pointed out above any improvements made that would've lifted the top end to within more reasonable range of top end LA build output, have essentially been negated by other changes.

Going back to optimised dummy parses, my ideal would be to see perfectly played, optimally-geared two-bar HA builds edging on the 100k ST mark. That's 20% less than what LA builds are currently capable of, which is reasonable. They're around 10k ST down from that, which means LA builds are peaking 30-35% higher as it stands - which is frankly too large a gap.

Heavy attacks in general got restructured (Are you sure Lightning HA didn't get shorter? I could swear they were three GCDs long, when I last played HA setup actively, pre U29).

Unless they were 3 GCDs in length before I started playing them in 2018, then not as far as I can recall. I remember testing HA Necro pre-U29 and being unable to seamlessly weave BB > HA > BB because of BB's "charge time". Had the lightning channel been 3 GCDs this wouldn't have been an issue.

Lalothen · September 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

I am fairly certain the empower buff not working on channels is false.

"Note that this bonus does not apply to partially charged Heavy Attacks, only fully charged Heavy Attacks or channeled Heavy Attacks."

It applies to fully charged heavies and channeled heavies. Which, by it being intentionally separated, means that all ticks get the bonus damage through the channel, not just the fully charged portion.

I'm talking about the additional 40% to HAs added to Empower not compensating for all the other nerfs that I then listed. I'm not saying it doesn't work on channeled heavies.

ManM · September 2022

I just wanted to add a couple data points from a filthy casual magblade heavy attacker:

Here is my u35 nDSR log, from a run with equally casual players.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/pRZF1trDHGJ64anA#boss=-3&difficulty=0&type=damage-done
TLDR: Magblade heavy attack DPS was 23k, top in the trial, with second place being 18k.

Here is an u35 vDSR log for a team with a bunch of first clears (it only took 4 and a half hours with 24 wipes)
https://www.esologs.com/reports/X8bGYtx3nLf6dPpN#boss=-3&difficulty=0&type=damage-done
TLDR: Magblade heavy attack DPS was 25k, which was 3rd highest in the trial, but significantly behind the top performers.

And here is a heavy attack log nDSR log from before u35:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/Mpg2wQXbmKaHxvcq#boss=-3&difficulty=0&type=damage-done
TLDR: 18k DPS, 2nd highest in the trial.

So in my experience, my heavy attack build, tweaked for u35, is hitting a bit harder than it was before. However, there isn't much (if any) room to actually grow the DPS. Still, that's good enough for clears, just not for the top tier content. As a filthy casual, that's okay for me. I won't even bother trying harder runs, because I know there is nothing I can do to get my heavy attack DPS high enough to be anything more than a drag on the team.

Zodiarkslayer · September 2022

ManM wrote: »

I just wanted to add a couple data points from a filthy casual magblade heavy attacker:

Here is my u35 nDSR log, from a run with equally casual players.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/pRZF1trDHGJ64anA#boss=-3&difficulty=0&type=damage-done
TLDR: Magblade heavy attack DPS was 23k, top in the trial, with second place being 18k.

Here is an u35 vDSR log for a team with a bunch of first clears (it only took 4 and a half hours with 24 wipes)
https://www.esologs.com/reports/X8bGYtx3nLf6dPpN#boss=-3&difficulty=0&type=damage-done
TLDR: Magblade heavy attack DPS was 25k, which was 3rd highest in the trial, but significantly behind the top performers.

And here is a heavy attack log nDSR log from before u35:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/Mpg2wQXbmKaHxvcq#boss=-3&difficulty=0&type=damage-done
TLDR: 18k DPS, 2nd highest in the trial.

So in my experience, my heavy attack build, tweaked for u35, is hitting a bit harder than it was before. However, there isn't much (if any) room to actually grow the DPS. Still, that's good enough for clears, just not for the top tier content. As a filthy casual, that's okay for me. I won't even bother trying harder runs, because I know there is nothing I can do to get my heavy attack DPS high enough to be anything more than a drag on the team.

I appreciate the effort of searching for logs with heavy attackers in it. Thank you. 👍

Artim_X · September 2022

Once I incorporated empower into my setup, my damage returned to what it was before the patch with some tweaks to my rotation. Both my setups can get more than 50k + on the trial dummy, but for consistency with previous patches I used the 3 million dummy where my usual goal is 30k on a DPS build.
Magsorc Parse live:

Should become a bit higher once the maelstrom staff bug is fixed.
Rotation: Buff up with Boundless Storm and Crit Surge with Twilight Tormentor activated, weapon swap immediately after casting the previous skill, maintain elemental susceptibility throughout fight, drop Thunderous Rage Ultimate whenever it is active, then Shock Reach, Unstable Wall of Storms, quickly weapon swap, Lightning Flood, three heavy attacks, activate either Surge or Boundless, cancel the animation of the buff used with a weapon swap, and repeat rotation without activating Reach (activated every other rotation). During the execute phase (around 20% health) replace the second heavy attack with about 4 Mages' Wrath, but if boss is melting quickly just keep spamming Wrath (1 heavy, 4 wraths, 1 heavy).
Gear: 5 Infallible Mage (Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Rage of the Ursauk's jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/weapon damage enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers (Divines with Max Mag Enchant).

I absolutely love Infallible Mage and will still rock it on my mag sorc no matter what. Although buffs to it would be greatly appreciated. I use Rage of the Ursauk to get empower active throughout my rotation without having to incorporate a skill that grants empower. Before switching to Ursauk I was rocking 5 piece Kinras's.

Magplar Parse PTS:

A very casual one-bar aedric spear heavy attack meme build that I'm currently recreating on live with a new character.
Rotation: Maintain elemental susceptibility throughout fight, Crescent Sweep at start of fight then on cooldown right after a heavy attack, Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweep, Heavy Attack, Puncturing Sweep, Heavy Attack, Puncturing Sweep Heavy Attack, Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweep, etc. etc. till enemy dead.
Gear: I messed around with different heavy attacks sets, but the only combination that consistently gave me the results I wanted was my absolute favorite Infallible Mage and Sergeant's Mail.
5 Infallible Mage (Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Oakensoul Ring (arcane with spell damage enchant), Sergeant's Mail chest (Divines with Max Mag Enchants), and Sergeant's Mail's ring + necklace (arcane with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/shock enchant).

Lalothen wrote: »

1) Reduction of the Lightning staff HA channel from 3 tics to 2 - this is a significant DPS loss and we still haven't had any clarification of whether it's intended or a bug.

2) Changing Crushing Wall - this took away another flat damage buff that HA builds have always relied on to produce reasonable DPS. This has not been replaced by anything else.

3) Infallible Mage set - the HA-themed DPS trial set - has not received any love at all.

1) I would love to get that missing tick back, then maybe my DPS will actually go higher than how it was before the patch dropped. It definitely needs to be addressed officially though so that the players are not left in the dark on the stealth nerf.

2) Definitely an annoying loss. My DPS was quite nice on the PTS when the original effect was in place before they changed it. Although I'd settle for just a fix to the bug that prevents the new effect from working at all times regardless of what bar you're on.

3) I'm always terrified that a buff to Infallible Mage would be followed up with a nerf, but the set could definitely use some love (increasing the amount of damage added to heavy attacks).

malistorr · September 2022

I've been using a lightning staff heavy attack mag sorc build for PVE for years. Like a lot of you I've had to adjust the build over time to account for gear set changes etc. I've been using Noble Duelist Silks and Undaunted Infiltrator with the back-barred Maelstrom staff lately. The big buffs to heavy attacks were from:

1. NDS set
2. UI set
3. Causing concussed/off-balance with back-barred Maelstrom lightning staff with shock glyph and infused w/ Elemental Blockade

Now with the change to Wall of Elements I was thinking the best way to get max damage from the same play style would be using the same sets (except Maelstrom staff). However I'd also replace my monster set with the Oakensoul ring to get empowered. That means a 1-bar build so I was thinking for my skills I'd have: (I don't want to use pets)

1. Crit Surge
2. Boundless Storm
3. Elemental Blockade
4. Inner light (passive for buffs)
5. Bound Aegis (passive for buffs)

The only staff would be the Undaunted Infiltrator lightning staff w/ shock glyph so I was thinking the best trait would be charged to maximize the chance of concussion/off-balance with Elemental Blockade. Instead of casting that skill on back-bar with the maelstrom staff and then quickly swapping to the front bar to heavy attack, Blockade would be cast on the front/only bar and then you would just heavy attack. With Oakensoul you'd have empower, you'd have the 2 set buffs still to heavy attacking, and you'd hopefully get concussion/off-balance still. Based on my knowledge of how heavy attacks work and how you proc concussion/off-balance I thought this above build would be about the best anyone could do to buff up their lightning staff heavy attacks as much as possible using Oakensoul and a 1-bar accessibility build.

Do you agree, disagree? Am I missing something here like a way to change/improve the build to milk out even more damage to lightning staff heavy attacks? If you have both set buffs, concussion/off-balance, and empower, that to me seems like it should be stronger lightning staff heavy attacks than were possible before. I need to test.

ManM · September 2022

Since the heavy attack +bonus damage sets were nerfed to the point where they only applied their bonus on the final tick, I've had much better luck running raw % damage boosting sets, bringing as many buffs/debuffs as I can. I tend to use bahsei's mania at all times, kinras on the front bar, and malestrom on the back bar. Dump magicka on the back bar applying dots and buffs, then swap and heavy attack weave with a spammable about three times. Swap back to reapply back bar things, repeat.

Make sure you are getting major sorcery/force, and imposing breach/vulnerability as you are able.

ManM · September 2022

Also, be absolutely sure you are keeping empower up at all times you are on the front bar spamming.

malistorr · September 2022

ManM are you talking to me?

jaws343 · September 2022

The build I am swapping to for heavy attacks, and general dungeon/arena solo and 4 man content, is:

Oaken
5 Grave Inevitability
2 Maw
2 Trainee
Lightning Maelstrom

Lightning Maelstrom will be a single target DPS loss, compared to running a second 5 piece set, but in solo play or even group add pulls, the added aoe maelstrom damage is noticeable.

Oaken is just too buff heavy to ignore for heavy attack builds now with 100% empower.

Maw is really solid and is pretty much up 100% of the time with a heavy attack spammable build.

Trainee is just decently stat dense for running 2 pieces. Not really many other options to round out the build with a 5 piece, weapon, and 2 piece setup alongside oakensoul.

To give some comparison to this build, compared to my pre U35 solo two bar build.

Pre U35: 20K self buffed on the 6M. This was a two bar build running no added penetration, two shields, boundless storm, and selfish passives, alongside Occult Overload, a passive that doesn't work on a dummy.

Post U35: With a heavy attack spam setup, 23K one bar on the 6M. I was still running False God from my 2 bar setup since I don't have Grave Inevitability yet. (Yesterday was patch day 1 for Xbox, so not much opportunity to farm the set yet). So I expect the damage to increase rather significantly once I get Major Force uptime from the set. I also parsed running a charged setup (thought I might get more out of Occult Overload) but switched over to infused, so I expect that to increase the damage a bit, but I didn't reparse it.

I also ran through a handful of dungeons solo to test out how the build felt in content. I'm still running crit surge for the heal only, since the major buff is redundant with oaken, but not running any shields on the build. Pretty much a cake walk for every dungeon I did, including a solo run of White Gold Tower this morning. Felt a lot more forgiving than the two bar build pre-patch, due to not ever having any resource issues.

Planning on trying it out in a VSO run this weekend, probably a vet Arena run of some sort as well.

Stx · September 2022

Does deadly strike set buff channeled heavy attacks? That could be an option

Artim_X · September 2022

My Magsorc parse increased after the maelstrom staff fix.

Lalothen · September 2022

malistorr wrote: »

I've been using a lightning staff heavy attack mag sorc build for PVE for years. Like a lot of you I've had to adjust the build over time to account for gear set changes etc. I've been using Noble Duelist Silks and Undaunted Infiltrator with the back-barred Maelstrom staff lately. The big buffs to heavy attacks were from:

1. NDS set
2. UI set
3. Causing concussed/off-balance with back-barred Maelstrom lightning staff with shock glyph and infused w/ Elemental Blockade

Now with the change to Wall of Elements I was thinking the best way to get max damage from the same play style would be using the same sets (except Maelstrom staff). However I'd also replace my monster set with the Oakensoul ring to get empowered. That means a 1-bar build so I was thinking for my skills I'd have: (I don't want to use pets)

1. Crit Surge
2. Boundless Storm
3. Elemental Blockade
4. Inner light (passive for buffs)
5. Bound Aegis (passive for buffs)

The only staff would be the Undaunted Infiltrator lightning staff w/ shock glyph so I was thinking the best trait would be charged to maximize the chance of concussion/off-balance with Elemental Blockade. Instead of casting that skill on back-bar with the maelstrom staff and then quickly swapping to the front bar to heavy attack, Blockade would be cast on the front/only bar and then you would just heavy attack. With Oakensoul you'd have empower, you'd have the 2 set buffs still to heavy attacking, and you'd hopefully get concussion/off-balance still. Based on my knowledge of how heavy attacks work and how you proc concussion/off-balance I thought this above build would be about the best anyone could do to buff up their lightning staff heavy attacks as much as possible using Oakensoul and a 1-bar accessibility build.

Do you agree, disagree? Am I missing something here like a way to change/improve the build to milk out even more damage to lightning staff heavy attacks? If you have both set buffs, concussion/off-balance, and empower, that to me seems like it should be stronger lightning staff heavy attacks than were possible before. I need to test
.

You don't really need to worry much about off-balance procs using Blockade & a Shock glyph; they happen more or less on cooldown already using that setup (I provide off-balance in my vDSR prog because I'm running a HA MagDK, and that's my experience anyway). That 7% extra crit from Precise however is likely to have more of a positive impact on your overall DPS, since you're going to be sitting in the low 40s for crit % wearing those two sets, even with the Thief mundus. I'd suggest making your lone additional gear item either Slimecraw Light or Medium (dependant upon how you feel about your penetration) as well for maximum crit rate.

Are you using Crit Surge for healing? If so I'd suggest Reaving Blows in the Warfare tree instead, since I personally find it provides enough healing. I also tend to re-kit my companion in situations where more healing is necessary, rather than sacrificing skill slots for it (then again my one-bar sorc uses both pets, so I have to be more choosy).

Inner Light isn't really doing that much for you because of the way Magicka scales into damage (and Oakensoul already provides major Prophecy), plus you really need a spammable to utilise between HA channels (which also helps ensure the Infiltrator proc remains up). Frags works fine as a spammable between HAs whilst giving you extra spell damage from the Expert Mage passive, or alternatively there's Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, and for AoE I would consider Shock Clench or Elemental Ring.

Bound Aegis again isn't doing a lot for you but it does at least benefit from Expert Mage - and the activation can be a life-saver in certain circumstances. I'd personally replace it with either Haunting Curse or Mage's Wrath for more DPS though, but obviously it depends how simple you want to keep things.

Lalothen · September 2022

Stx wrote: »

Does deadly strike set buff channeled heavy attacks? That could be an option

It does, but due to the way ESO calculates damage it's actually better to utilise the sets adding flate base damage to heavy attacks. That said, if you're less concerned about maximising HA damage and instead want to run a DoT-heavy setup, Deadly Strike may yield similar overall DPS results. It's been a long time since I tried Deadly Strike on any build outside of a Templar, to be honest, so I'll run a few tests on either DK or Necro (since they're the DoTtiest classes) when I can.

malistorr · September 2022

I won't be using any skills other than Elemental Blockade (to trigger concussed/off-balance) for damage really other than Boundless Storm. I use that for all 3-reasons. Speed/protection/damage. I do use crit surge for some self-healing but since most fights are short I mainly cast crit surge and boundless storm while running up to a fight, I lay down blockade, and then just heavy attack until the add and smaller bosses are dead. Most fights are quick which is why I figured it's better to go charged on the staff to give the max change of the status effect for the +70% HA damage instead of infused which I figured would only be better for longer fights where cooldowns on enchants matter etc.

I'm also most concerned with solo play. When I do dungeons it's mostly PUG so I don't assume I'll have any buffs that groups SHOULD be giving a DPS. I assume I'll need to provide concussed/off-balance and empowered.

Lalothen · September 2022

Artim_X wrote: »

My Magsorc parse increased after the maelstrom staff fix.

Nice to see that it's fixed!

I'll need to re-test my prog setup now to see if I'll actually be dropping the Maelstrom 2H back-bar for Staff again (though I'll miss Stampeding into a fight every time XD).

jaws343 · September 2022

Lalothen wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Does deadly strike set buff channeled heavy attacks? That could be an option

It does, but due to the way ESO calculates damage it's actually better to utilise the sets adding flate base damage to heavy attacks. That said, if you're less concerned about maximising HA damage and instead want to run a DoT-heavy setup, Deadly Strike may yield similar overall DPS results. It's been a long time since I tried Deadly Strike on any build outside of a Templar, to be honest, so I'll run a few tests on either DK or Necro (since they're the DoTtiest classes) when I can.

I actually decided to go with Deadly in place of False God on the one bar heavy attack build I put together. At least in the interim while I farm out Grave Inevitability.

Results were fairly significant. Went up like 2K on the 3 and 6M dummy. But most importantly, went up 10K on the Trial dummy. From 49K to 61K DPS just changing from FG to Deadly. Still running Occult Overload and Crit surge on the bar with oaken soul.

So, I think deadly can be a solid heavy attack option, but you also have to not have any non-dot damage skills for it to be worth it. Since the set buffs every skill I have on my bar (excluding Prey) + lightning heavies, I am almost wondering if it would outperform having major force up as well.

BXR_Lonestar · September 2022

Lalothen wrote: »

Having been able to properly test out HA builds on the PC Live servers - i.e. in actual solo & group content without a super-buffed dummy inflating the numbers - U35 has fallen appreciably short of the ostensible intention of this statement. It's clear that the following have fundamentally negated any "love" you have given to HA builds in U35:

1) Reduction of the Lightning staff HA channel from 3 tics to 2 - this is a significant DPS loss and we still haven't had any clarification of whether it's intended or a bug.

2) Changing Crushing Wall - this took away another flat damage buff that HA builds have always relied on to produce reasonable DPS. This has not been replaced by anything else.

3) Infallible Mage set - the HA-themed DPS trial set - has not received any love at all.

The result is that the bastardised semi-HA builds that were doing okay before U35 are no longer viable, and switching up sets to go all-out HA simply isn't producing enough DPS. LA builds, on the other hand, are hitting close to their pre-U35 numbers with a few minor tweaks. I'm even seeing people in my regular trial group hitting harder with their LA builds than before, which to me is like rubbing salt in the wound.

I said this back during the early stages of the U35 PTS: I'd be happy to see HA builds peaking at around 15% less than LA builds in actual content. The reality at the moment, is that they're peaking too low - and it's not only a worse situation for solo players, it's worse for any group with one or more HA build users contributing to DPS. You said you wanted better for us, yet currently you've left us in a worse state than before U35. The change to Empower, buffing the Weapons Expert constellation, returning numerous HA themed sets back to flat damage buffs & improving two of them (The changes to Noble Duelist's Silks & Sergeant's Mail put them both in a really good spot in my opinion) are good changes for the HA playstyle, but it's essentially wasted developer time if you're not going to adequately make up for losses accrued as a result of other changes that have been made.

All this said, it's not too hard to fix:
Clarify that the lightning staff channeled tic reduction is either intended or a bug - and if it's a bug, please fix it.

More of a micro-management thing, but please increase the duration of the Sergeant's Mail buff to 10s so it's more forgiving when it comes to the back bar portion of a rotation.

Make up the DPS lost with the change to Crushing Wall. You could do this in a variety of different ways actually, such as picking one from the following:

a) Increase the base damage of HAs by a percentage.

b) Change an under-utilised arena weapon - the Blackrose destruction staff, for example - to essentially provide the same flat buff. You could even keep it attached to Impulse:
Wild Impulse
LEVEL 50 champion CHAMPION 160
(2 items) Reduce the cost of Impulse by 10%. Impulse places a lingering weakness on all targets hit, increasing their damage taken from Heavy Attacks by 1000 for 15s.

c) Increase the flat damage buff provided by all HA-themed set 5-pieces by around 500 each (meaning an extra 1000 base utilising 2 HA-themed sets).

d) Make up the lost damage by giving some much-needed love to the Infallible Mage set:
Infallible Mage
LEVEL 50 champion CHAMPION 160
(2 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(3 items) Grants Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon Trial and Arena Monsters by 5%.
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) Your Heavy Attacks against monsters deal an additional 2000 damage.
(5 items) Grants Empower buff.

Buffing Infallible Mage this way would place it as the go-to "endgame" set for HA build players - especially if wearing 5 pieces granted the wearer Empower. It would also make it viable to wear with Oakensoul without necessarily making it the best option in that particular instance.

HA builds can fairly easily be shunted into that sweet spot where they're great as accessibility builds, adequately viable for endgame content, but are still peaking far enough behind more demanding LA builds - and just as importantly the time spent making changes specifically to HA builds to improve their output potential won't have been wasted.

Honestly, I think changing the 5th piece bonus of Infal is going to result in a net nerf, not a net buff. Minor vulnerability was a good buff that offered a 5% damage increase. Empower bonus is nice, increasing the damage per tick is nice, but they've made empower so widely available that it is not necessarily needed as a stagnate bonus, and in fact, there is a new set from one of the dungeons (Ursauk's rage I think) that proc's empower for your group just based off your heavy attack, and it provides other stuff that HA builds need - penetration and crit chance.

Personally, I'd prefer Infal stay as is, and they just buff the damage per tick by 2K, or alternatively, guarantee that it will proc off balance with every lightning staff HA in addition to giving minor vulnerability. That would actually save you a champion point perk (exploiter perk) while basically giving you a net 15% damage increase, while also preserving its group utility (minor vulnerability).

Lalothen · September 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

I actually decided to go with Deadly in place of False God on the one bar heavy attack build I put together. At least in the interim while I farm out Grave Inevitability.

Results were fairly significant. Went up like 2K on the 3 and 6M dummy. But most importantly, went up 10K on the Trial dummy. From 49K to 61K DPS just changing from FG to Deadly. Still running Occult Overload and Crit surge on the bar with oaken soul.

So, I think deadly can be a solid heavy attack option, but you also have to not have any non-dot damage skills for it to be worth it. Since the set buffs every skill I have on my bar (excluding Prey) + lightning heavies, I am almost wondering if it would outperform having major force up as well.

I'd say potentially yes, since you're getting 15% on both crits and non-crits, whilst Major Force is only giving you 20% on crits. However you're also getting 20% on non DoT crits, which include the final pulse of the lightning heavy and any DD components associated with your DoTs.

jaws343 · September 2022

Lalothen wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I actually decided to go with Deadly in place of False God on the one bar heavy attack build I put together. At least in the interim while I farm out Grave Inevitability.

Results were fairly significant. Went up like 2K on the 3 and 6M dummy. But most importantly, went up 10K on the Trial dummy. From 49K to 61K DPS just changing from FG to Deadly. Still running Occult Overload and Crit surge on the bar with oaken soul.

So, I think deadly can be a solid heavy attack option, but you also have to not have any non-dot damage skills for it to be worth it. Since the set buffs every skill I have on my bar (excluding Prey) + lightning heavies, I am almost wondering if it would outperform having major force up as well.

I'd say potentially yes, since you're getting 15% on both crits and non-crits, whilst Major Force is only giving you 20% on crits. However you're also getting 20% on non DoT crits, which include the final pulse of the lightning heavy and any DD components associated with your DoTs.

Yeah, I wonder if the splash damage gets the Deadly buff.

I think I am still planning on using Deadly as just a placeholder for the build. But, if I decide to drop both Maw and the maelstrom staff, I might go for a 5 Deadly, 5 Grave Inevitability setup.

Stx · September 2022

Lalothen wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Does deadly strike set buff channeled heavy attacks? That could be an option

It does, but due to the way ESO calculates damage it's actually better to utilise the sets adding flate base damage to heavy attacks. That said, if you're less concerned about maximising HA damage and instead want to run a DoT-heavy setup, Deadly Strike may yield similar overall DPS results. It's been a long time since I tried Deadly Strike on any build outside of a Templar, to be honest, so I'll run a few tests on either DK or Necro (since they're the DoTtiest classes) when I can.

Something I have never tried is deadly on a sorc. Crystal blast is channeled right? I wonder if deadly buffs it, and if it does.. I wonder if instant procs keep the damage buff from deadly or if it loses it lol, that would be an interesting interaction.

WinterHeart626 · September 2022

I hear you on that, but when you pug a cradle and have 1 reliable tank, a good warden dps werewolf, a healer who’s learning the ropes whos yet to lose players to actual death and not one shots (me) and the rando you get in the pug is running a sorc with clannefear, lightning staff, lightning aura and THATS ALL they’re spamming, you’re not doing it right. I was punching more damage as a healer. I could swap heal negate for overload and burn trash mobs faster than he was tickling them for. Not what you want in a vet cradle of shadows. Oh, we didn’t have any deaths till veledrith, deaths in the maze. Deaths to don’t move a muscle (that one I struggle with on the roll to avoid impale).

Edit: clarification, if the sorc had run anything other than the clannefear, and showed more than hold zappy, then stand and look stupid, he would have been kept on as an ablative meatshield.

jaws343 · September 2022

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I hear you on that, but when you pug a cradle and have 1 reliable tank, a good warden dps werewolf, a healer who’s learning the ropes whos yet to lose players to actual death and not one shots (me) and the rando you get in the pug is running a sorc with clannefear, lightning staff, lightning aura and THATS ALL they’re spamming, you’re not doing it right. I was punching more damage as a healer. I could swap heal negate for overload and burn trash mobs faster than he was tickling them for. Not what you want in a vet cradle of shadows. Oh, we didn’t have any deaths till veledrith, deaths in the maze. Deaths to don’t move a muscle (that one I struggle with on the roll to avoid impale).

Edit: clarification, if the sorc had run anything other than the clannefear, and showed more than hold zappy, then stand and look stupid, he would have been kept on as an ablative meatshield.

I just soloed normal cradle on my sorc heavy attack setup.

The build pushes out more DPS than the two bar build I ran in ALL content before the patch. Now, I am running the right morph of the scamp lol. But I don't think a player should be judged on their choice of spammable, whether it is using heavies or using a skill, as long as they are being useful. Holding heavy attack isn't inherently a bad choice if built right.

WinterHeart626 · September 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I hear you on that, but when you pug a cradle and have 1 reliable tank, a good warden dps werewolf, a healer who’s learning the ropes whos yet to lose players to actual death and not one shots (me) and the rando you get in the pug is running a sorc with clannefear, lightning staff, lightning aura and THATS ALL they’re spamming, you’re not doing it right. I was punching more damage as a healer. I could swap heal negate for overload and burn trash mobs faster than he was tickling them for. Not what you want in a vet cradle of shadows. Oh, we didn’t have any deaths till veledrith, deaths in the maze. Deaths to don’t move a muscle (that one I struggle with on the roll to avoid impale).

Edit: clarification, if the sorc had run anything other than the clannefear, and showed more than hold zappy, then stand and look stupid, he would have been kept on as an ablative meatshield.

I just soloed normal cradle on my sorc heavy attack setup.

The build pushes out more DPS than the two bar build I ran in ALL content before the patch. Now, I am running the right morph of the scamp lol. But I don't think a player should be judged on their choice of spammable, whether it is using heavies or using a skill, as long as they are being useful. Holding heavy attack isn't inherently a bad choice if built right.

I’m in agreement there, but when you got the goober doing a heavy attack and then standing, literally, standing doing nothing for 3 seconds after animation? In vet cradle. That’s a bad sign.
Like I said, I ran sorc, I’ve run the lightning heavy attacker build myself, but when you’re in vet, and just not continuing attacks and just going “oh look at the pretty fire” that’s not something that endears me to someone who’s popped up as a random pug 😜
I sound bad for saying that, but it is what it is.
Hopefully they’re more proactive with it in future.

FrancisCrawford · September 2022

Lalothen wrote: »

malistorr wrote: »

I've been using a lightning staff heavy attack mag sorc build for PVE for years. Like a lot of you I've had to adjust the build over time to account for gear set changes etc. I've been using Noble Duelist Silks and Undaunted Infiltrator with the back-barred Maelstrom staff lately. The big buffs to heavy attacks were from:

1. NDS set
2. UI set
3. Causing concussed/off-balance with back-barred Maelstrom lightning staff with shock glyph and infused w/ Elemental Blockade

Now with the change to Wall of Elements I was thinking the best way to get max damage from the same play style would be using the same sets (except Maelstrom staff). However I'd also replace my monster set with the Oakensoul ring to get empowered. That means a 1-bar build so I was thinking for my skills I'd have: (I don't want to use pets)

1. Crit Surge
2. Boundless Storm
3. Elemental Blockade
4. Inner light (passive for buffs)
5. Bound Aegis (passive for buffs)

The only staff would be the Undaunted Infiltrator lightning staff w/ shock glyph so I was thinking the best trait would be charged to maximize the chance of concussion/off-balance with Elemental Blockade. Instead of casting that skill on back-bar with the maelstrom staff and then quickly swapping to the front bar to heavy attack, Blockade would be cast on the front/only bar and then you would just heavy attack. With Oakensoul you'd have empower, you'd have the 2 set buffs still to heavy attacking, and you'd hopefully get concussion/off-balance still. Based on my knowledge of how heavy attacks work and how you proc concussion/off-balance I thought this above build would be about the best anyone could do to buff up their lightning staff heavy attacks as much as possible using Oakensoul and a 1-bar accessibility build.

Do you agree, disagree? Am I missing something here like a way to change/improve the build to milk out even more damage to lightning staff heavy attacks? If you have both set buffs, concussion/off-balance, and empower, that to me seems like it should be stronger lightning staff heavy attacks than were possible before. I need to test
.

You don't really need to worry much about off-balance procs using Blockade & a Shock glyph; they happen more or less on cooldown already using that setup (I provide off-balance in my vDSR prog because I'm running a HA MagDK, and that's my experience anyway). That 7% extra crit from Precise however is likely to have more of a positive impact on your overall DPS, since you're going to be sitting in the low 40s for crit % wearing those two sets, even with the Thief mundus. I'd suggest making your lone additional gear item either Slimecraw Light or Medium (dependant upon how you feel about your penetration) as well for maximum crit rate.

Are you using Crit Surge for healing? If so I'd suggest Reaving Blows in the Warfare tree instead, since I personally find it provides enough healing. I also tend to re-kit my companion in situations where more healing is necessary, rather than sacrificing skill slots for it (then again my one-bar sorc uses both pets, so I have to be more choosy).

Inner Light isn't really doing that much for you because of the way Magicka scales into damage (and Oakensoul already provides major Prophecy), plus you really need a spammable to utilise between HA channels (which also helps ensure the Infiltrator proc remains up). Frags works fine as a spammable between HAs whilst giving you extra spell damage from the Expert Mage passive, or alternatively there's Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, and for AoE I would consider Shock Clench or Elemental Ring.

Bound Aegis again isn't doing a lot for you but it does at least benefit from Expert Mage - and the activation can be a life-saver in certain circumstances. I'd personally replace it with either Haunting Curse or Mage's Wrath for more DPS though, but obviously it depends how simple you want to keep things.

Shouldn't there be a bias to running a Dark Magic skill, at least in a group, for the Minor Prophecy? (6% to crit chance) Frags, Crystal Weapon, and Daedric Tomb would seem to be the obvious candidates.

FrancisCrawford · September 2022

ManM wrote: »

Since the heavy attack +bonus damage sets were nerfed to the point where they only applied their bonus on the final tick, I've had much better luck running raw % damage boosting sets, bringing as many buffs/debuffs as I can. I tend to use bahsei's mania at all times, kinras on the front bar, and malestrom on the back bar. Dump magicka on the back bar applying dots and buffs, then swap and heavy attack weave with a spammable about three times. Swap back to reapply back bar things, repeat.

Make sure you are getting major sorcery/force, and imposing breach/vulnerability as you are able.

Wait -- only the final tick is buffed?? I'd forgotten that.