Druids - not the story I was hoping for [HI spoilers]

RaddlemanNumber7 · July 2022

The Druids versus the Green - a story of violence and coersion.

I know we haven't had all of the year's storyline yet, but this is already very clear. I know we've only really seen the Stonelore Circle so far, but they're supposed to be the good guys as far as Druids are concerned.

We are told the Druids parted ways with the Wyrd in ancient times. The Druids chose to face up to nature in defence of civilisation, while the Wyrd face up to civilisation in defence of nature.

The Druids coerce nature spirits. The Evergrowth of Stonelore Grove was made a thrall by the first druid settlers on High Isle. Other nature spirits are manipulated, or even created, to serve the wants of the Druids. We are told that Stonelore druids work to suppress volcanic activity on High Isle, and we see that happening at the volcanic vents.

Druids are violent towards vegetation. They have vegetable gardens! The vegetables they grow include root crops, pulled from the ground before they can flower and seed - an egregious deviation from nature's own trajectory. This is in stark contrast to the Green keepers of the Valenwood.

The "Meet the Character" article for Druid Laurel mentions druids "weeding" their vegetable gardens, making it clear that this is just business as usual as far as Druids are concerned. We see them actually doing it in High Isle as well. "Weeding" is the vocabulary of genocide - any species deemed a "weed" faces merciless persecution if not outright extermination. I have pictures!

That Druid is actually raking the ground, breaking up the living earth...

This is not the story I was hoping for, but it is a coherent story, it is the story the devs have given us. It fits existing lore, creating a contrast with the Wyrd and the Green Pact.

The Druids are settlers in the Systres. They imposed themselves on that environment, and it shows. They remind me very much of the Pilgrim Fathers. Now, I can see who the Fauns represent.

I won't be RP'ing a Druid in this game.

Supreme_Atromancer · July 2022

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Druids are violent towards vegetation. They have vegetable gardens! The vegetables they grow include root crops, pulled from the ground before they can flower and seed - an egregious deviation from nature's own trajectory. This is in stark contrast to the Green keepers of the Valenwood.

Can a weed lifecycle really be considered as the "trajectory of nature"? They're only there because the land is cleared and the soil structure and chemistry has changed.

Do Green Pact Bosmer eat Mushrooms? They are more closely related to animals than plants, yet they are sessile and serve an important part of the nutrient cycle. And for that matter, so do animals. Why are they against forest fires? They're presumably bad for Mer, but they serve an essential part of the ecological processes that sustain communities.

Eporem · July 2022

I am hoping to meet others who wish to roleplay as Druids - forming another type of Circle similar to but not the same as the three that are there now.:) I hope they would fit within the lore - like the clans of the Reachmen or the Argonian tribes created by players.

Vevvev · July 2022

Seems like my kind of people!

Wait, you were expecting them to be at one with nature? In the base game we had the concept of a Druid in Bangkorai, the Viridian Sentinel.

Bends and shapes nature to protect the people of Bangkorai, but they're deeply hated by the Wyrd for that purpose. The Sentinel tames nature instead of letting it run amuck.

This story is exactly what I was coming to expect tbh.

RaddlemanNumber7 · July 2022

Vevvev wrote: »

Seems like my kind of people!

Wait, you were expecting them to be at one with nature? In the base game we had the concept of a Druid in Bangkorai, the Viridian Sentinel.

Bends and shapes nature to protect the people of Bangkorai, but they're deeply hated by the Wyrd for that purpose. The Sentinel tames nature instead of letting it run amuck.

This story is exactly what I was coming to expect tbh.

Yes, you're right. It's years since I did the Viridian Sentinel quest. I was hazy on the details, so I did it again.

Ouch. Not at all what I remembered.

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised by ESO's take on Druids, or hopeful really.

It's a pity that the need to create opportunities for combat is such an important factor in the game's development.

kaushad · July 2022

Do you really want them to have the same philosophy as Bosmer or the Wyrds? I'm grateful for the diversity.

Eporem · July 2022

Vevvev wrote: »

Seems like my kind of people!

Wait, you were expecting them to be at one with nature? In the base game we had the concept of a Druid in Bangkorai, the Viridian Sentinel.

Bends and shapes nature to protect the people of Bangkorai, but they're deeply hated by the Wyrd for that purpose. The Sentinel tames nature instead of letting it run amuck.

This story is exactly what I was coming to expect tbh.

I remember this quest, though didn't realize the Viridian Sentinel was a concept of a Druid. The character I was playing during this quest wanted to destroy the seed after listening to the Voice of the Forest, instead of saving who the Sentinel wanted as his successor. His successor thought the Spriggans animals whose opinion meant nothing, and I think the Wyrd in this forest thought he did not choose wisely, instead choose someone dear to him who was dying.

Just came across this - what the uesp tells of the lore of the Druids. Glad to have read this there:

As of 2E 282, aside from the three major druidic circles active in the Systres, there were also numerous smaller circles devoted to communing with nature.[

though think to see first now how the other two Druid circles are represented before deciding to play as one.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Druids

BlissfulDeluge · July 2022

On the contrary I feel like Druids are utterly unnecessary, as they are not unique, and take away from other nature-worshiping races. They feel like a weird fusion of Reach shamanism and Bosmeri Pact-adherence with the way the "Druids of Galen" were presented. Meanwhile the mainstream Bretons were largely boiled down to "kek generic medieval fantasy," which is an utter disservice to Breton fans.

I was hoping we'd get to see the Breton culture explored and expanded on. Instead Q4 looks to be set up as entirely devoted to this small group of Bretons who have nothing in common with the mainstream Breton culture. They don't even worship Y'ffre under the Altmeri/Bretonic name, Jephre.

Overall, I'm expecting Q4 to be a massive disappointment.

RaddlemanNumber7 · July 2022

I'm disappointed that the Druids turned out like this, but the story is well written. When it comes to the way a dodgy cult defines itself the writers certainly know their stuff. Druid Audrine on The True Way...

The "arbiters of Y'ffre's will" indeed, as if Yffre doesn't know their own mind.

Aliyavana · August 2022

We learn in the prologue that the Druids of Galen embraced civilization unlike their modern counterparts. They disliked the Wyrd due to their isolationism and their love for unmarred nature. The two hostile druidic circles, the Eldertide and Firesong, are a lot like the Wyrd in that regard. The Firesong especially, which seems to be the most feral of the three circles.

I'm hoping Q4 has drudism reintroduced to modern breton culture as a whole, and druids embrace civilization like the Druids of Galen once did.

Eporem · August 2022

I am hoping to see more of this type of spell casting..would it be Nedic in its origin? in that the symbol of the constellation of the Ritual is used for this spell of protection.

Gaebriel0410 · August 2022

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

On the contrary I feel like Druids are utterly unnecessary, as they are not unique, and take away from other nature-worshiping races. They feel like a weird fusion of Reach shamanism and Bosmeri Pact-adherence with the way the "Druids of Galen" were presented. Meanwhile the mainstream Bretons were largely boiled down to "kek generic medieval fantasy," which is an utter disservice to Breton fans.

I was hoping we'd get to see the Breton culture explored and expanded on. Instead Q4 looks to be set up as entirely devoted to this small group of Bretons who have nothing in common with the mainstream Breton culture. They don't even worship Y'ffre under the Altmeri/Bretonic name, Jephre.

Overall, I'm expecting Q4 to be a massive disappointment.

My feelings are mostly the exact opposite. I think the Druids, who are said to embrace civilization, fit perfectly as the "missing link" between the city folk and the Wyrd, "unifying" both groups as a coherent people in the process if that makes sense, as it makes the Wyrd less of an extreme outlier so to say. They don't remind me of the Green Pact or Reach shamans in the slightest, besides the general nature theme. In Bosmeri culture the (pretty extreme) Green Pact is basically their way of life, where amongst the Reach clans their shamans are pretty much universally respected as their clan's spiritual guide. Also I believe (not entirely sure) I read that their interaction with their spirits depends on bargaining with them, which is quite different to what we've seen of druids.

Though I especially disagree with the "generic medieval fantasy" part, since I think the Bretons always had that Arthurian questing knight vibe to them. It's one of the things that attracted me to the race since the start and one that I honestly haven't seen in fantasy settings often, oddly enough despite knights and medieval stuff being a long time staple of the genre. And I am happy we saw a lot more of that, since the base game zones didn't often touch on that aspect of their society, which was nonetheless always cited as being very prevalent.

I think the added High Isle lore is definitely applicable to all Bretons, references to the mainland are often given as well as the existence of smaller druidic circles besides the three main ones. In addition it is said there are still druids on the mainland as well, though to a much lesser extent than in the Systres since that is their home. And well since the druid lore is new, I can understand that approach. They sadly won't/can't change the base game zones to include more druid villages or something, but they have incorporated it into the lore which is good imo.

I think there was always gonna be a "divide" between the druids and city folk, since that is kind of a requirement when a group is nature oriented, while also being part of a race that traditionally lives in cities. But still High Isle shows they trade, integrate and interact, which is quite different to the Wyrd who are mostly surrounded by superstition and fear. It is mentioned that druids are respected in Breton society, yet we also see that not everyone trusts them, and how some think them strange or primitive. Which I think is a good thing, since that little detail in perception alone makes them already quite different to the other nature worshipping groups. We also learn that some druids have even taken squires, and some knightly orders integrate druidic teachings.

Though the squire part raises an additional question for me, since now I wonder if "squiring" in that context is used because it is such a common concept in Breton society, or if it is actually possible to be both a druid and a noble(wo)man, since squiring is usually done for a knight, and the latter belongs to the nobility. Especially since there's plenty of references to apprenticeships etc. for other professions, so the use of the word squire was very interesting to me. I hope we will learn more about that with the Druid King.

I would have preferred the name Jephre (or the more obscure Jeh Free) as well, though I can also imagine how the Bretons, who have always been fairly fractured as a people, might have variations or bastardizations of such things even within their own domain.

But all in all I think the vast majority of the added lore is super useful for all Bretons, especially in roleplay. We get to see non-conventional knightly orders such as the sailor bards of the Albatross, which by itself is already really nice new info, since it shows how different the concept of a knightly order can be in High Rock. We already saw a little of that with the Silver Rose dungeon as well, since I believe that was the first showcase of a knightly order which wasn't devoted to either the protection of a city/region, or a Divine.

So I expect Q4 to be great, as High Isle has basically given me about everything I love most about Bretons. And the whole deal with Galen and their druidic ancestry has always been the thing I wondered about, I thought it has been really well done so far. Not perfectly of course, but nothing is perfect.

Aliyavana · August 2022

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

On the contrary I feel like Druids are utterly unnecessary, as they are not unique, and take away from other nature-worshiping races. They feel like a weird fusion of Reach shamanism and Bosmeri Pact-adherence with the way the "Druids of Galen" were presented. Meanwhile the mainstream Bretons were largely boiled down to "kek generic medieval fantasy," which is an utter disservice to Breton fans.

I was hoping we'd get to see the Breton culture explored and expanded on. Instead Q4 looks to be set up as entirely devoted to this small group of Bretons who have nothing in common with the mainstream Breton culture. They don't even worship Y'ffre under the Altmeri/Bretonic name, Jephre.

Overall, I'm expecting Q4 to be a massive disappointment.

My feelings are mostly the exact opposite. I think the Druids, who are said to embrace civilization, fit perfectly as the "missing link" between the city folk and the Wyrd, "unifying" both groups as a coherent people in the process if that makes sense, as it makes the Wyrd less of an extreme outlier so to say. They don't remind me of the Green Pact or Reach shamans in the slightest, besides the general nature theme. In Bosmeri culture the (pretty extreme) Green Pact is basically their way of life, where amongst the Reach clans their shamans are pretty much universally respected as their clan's spiritual guide. Also I believe (not entirely sure) I read that their interaction with their spirits depends on bargaining with them, which is quite different to what we've seen of druids.

Though I especially disagree with the "generic medieval fantasy" part, since I think the Bretons always had that Arthurian questing knight vibe to them. It's one of the things that attracted me to the race since the start and one that I honestly haven't seen in fantasy settings often, oddly enough despite knights and medieval stuff being a long time staple of the genre. And I am happy we saw a lot more of that, since the base game zones didn't often touch on that aspect of their society, which was nonetheless always cited as being very prevalent.

I think the added High Isle lore is definitely applicable to all Bretons, references to the mainland are often given as well as the existence of smaller druidic circles besides the three main ones. In addition it is said there are still druids on the mainland as well, though to a much lesser extent than in the Systres since that is their home. And well since the druid lore is new, I can understand that approach. They sadly won't/can't change the base game zones to include more druid villages or something, but they have incorporated it into the lore which is good imo.

I think there was always gonna be a "divide" between the druids and city folk, since that is kind of a requirement when a group is nature oriented, while also being part of a race that traditionally lives in cities. But still High Isle shows they trade, integrate and interact, which is quite different to the Wyrd who are mostly surrounded by superstition and fear. It is mentioned that druids are respected in Breton society, yet we also see that not everyone trusts them, and how some think them strange or primitive. Which I think is a good thing, since that little detail in perception alone makes them already quite different to the other nature worshipping groups. We also learn that some druids have even taken squires, and some knightly orders integrate druidic teachings.

Though the squire part raises an additional question for me, since now I wonder if "squiring" in that context is used because it is such a common concept in Breton society, or if it is actually possible to be both a druid and a noble(wo)man, since squiring is usually done for a knight, and the latter belongs to the nobility. Especially since there's plenty of references to apprenticeships etc. for other professions, so the use of the word squire was very interesting to me. I hope we will learn more about that with the Druid King.

I would have preferred the name Jephre (or the more obscure Jeh Free) as well, though I can also imagine how the Bretons, who have always been fairly fractured as a people, might have variations or bastardizations of such things even within their own domain.

But all in all I think the vast majority of the added lore is super useful for all Bretons, especially in roleplay. We get to see non-conventional knightly orders such as the sailor bards of the Albatross, which by itself is already really nice new info, since it shows how different the concept of a knightly order can be in High Rock. We already saw a little of that with the Silver Rose dungeon as well, since I believe that was the first showcase of a knightly order which wasn't devoted to either the protection of a city/region, or a Divine.

So I expect Q4 to be great, as High Isle has basically given me about everything I love most about Bretons. And the whole deal with Galen and their druidic ancestry has always been the thing I wondered about, I thought it has been really well done so far. Not perfectly of course, but nothing is perfect.

the prologue says that the druids havnt been seen in High Rock for centuries, so something happened to the druids that stayed behind

And you didn't know the druids are divided into different circles?:
"No. To be honest, we hardly even think about druids. They've been absent from High Rock for centuries. Our stories talk about a singular entity, the Druids of Galen. I suppose I should have realized they'd form subgroups. The wyrds certainly have."

Supreme_Atromancer · August 2022

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

On the contrary I feel like Druids are utterly unnecessary, as they are not unique, and take away from other nature-worshiping races. They feel like a weird fusion of Reach shamanism and Bosmeri Pact-adherence with the way the "Druids of Galen" were presented. Meanwhile the mainstream Bretons were largely boiled down to "kek generic medieval fantasy," which is an utter disservice to Breton fans.

I was hoping we'd get to see the Breton culture explored and expanded on. Instead Q4 looks to be set up as entirely devoted to this small group of Bretons who have nothing in common with the mainstream Breton culture. They don't even worship Y'ffre under the Altmeri/Bretonic name, Jephre.

Overall, I'm expecting Q4 to be a massive disappointment.

My feelings are mostly the exact opposite. I think the Druids, who are said to embrace civilization, fit perfectly as the "missing link" between the city folk and the Wyrd, "unifying" both groups as a coherent people in the process if that makes sense, as it makes the Wyrd less of an extreme outlier so to say. They don't remind me of the Green Pact or Reach shamans in the slightest, besides the general nature theme. In Bosmeri culture the (pretty extreme) Green Pact is basically their way of life, where amongst the Reach clans their shamans are pretty much universally respected as their clan's spiritual guide. Also I believe (not entirely sure) I read that their interaction with their spirits depends on bargaining with them, which is quite different to what we've seen of druids.

Though I especially disagree with the "generic medieval fantasy" part, since I think the Bretons always had that Arthurian questing knight vibe to them. It's one of the things that attracted me to the race since the start and one that I honestly haven't seen in fantasy settings often, oddly enough despite knights and medieval stuff being a long time staple of the genre. And I am happy we saw a lot more of that, since the base game zones didn't often touch on that aspect of their society, which was nonetheless always cited as being very prevalent.

I think the added High Isle lore is definitely applicable to all Bretons, references to the mainland are often given as well as the existence of smaller druidic circles besides the three main ones. In addition it is said there are still druids on the mainland as well, though to a much lesser extent than in the Systres since that is their home. And well since the druid lore is new, I can understand that approach. They sadly won't/can't change the base game zones to include more druid villages or something, but they have incorporated it into the lore which is good imo.

I think there was always gonna be a "divide" between the druids and city folk, since that is kind of a requirement when a group is nature oriented, while also being part of a race that traditionally lives in cities. But still High Isle shows they trade, integrate and interact, which is quite different to the Wyrd who are mostly surrounded by superstition and fear. It is mentioned that druids are respected in Breton society, yet we also see that not everyone trusts them, and how some think them strange or primitive. Which I think is a good thing, since that little detail in perception alone makes them already quite different to the other nature worshipping groups. We also learn that some druids have even taken squires, and some knightly orders integrate druidic teachings.

Though the squire part raises an additional question for me, since now I wonder if "squiring" in that context is used because it is such a common concept in Breton society, or if it is actually possible to be both a druid and a noble(wo)man, since squiring is usually done for a knight, and the latter belongs to the nobility. Especially since there's plenty of references to apprenticeships etc. for other professions, so the use of the word squire was very interesting to me. I hope we will learn more about that with the Druid King.

I would have preferred the name Jephre (or the more obscure Jeh Free) as well, though I can also imagine how the Bretons, who have always been fairly fractured as a people, might have variations or bastardizations of such things even within their own domain.

But all in all I think the vast majority of the added lore is super useful for all Bretons, especially in roleplay. We get to see non-conventional knightly orders such as the sailor bards of the Albatross, which by itself is already really nice new info, since it shows how different the concept of a knightly order can be in High Rock. We already saw a little of that with the Silver Rose dungeon as well, since I believe that was the first showcase of a knightly order which wasn't devoted to either the protection of a city/region, or a Divine.

So I expect Q4 to be great, as High Isle has basically given me about everything I love most about Bretons. And the whole deal with Galen and their druidic ancestry has always been the thing I wondered about, I thought it has been really well done so far. Not perfectly of course, but nothing is perfect.

I like the idea of the Oaken Order representing the Celtic idea of the Green Knight. They're knightly in that they're martial, its just that their code and piety are oriented not to The Divines, but the druids and Nature. Squires are just part of a quintessentially Breton way of doing things, and there's nothing necessarily contradictory in the translation from "holy" knight to "green" knight. I don't know if that is how people feel that the Oaken Order plays out in game, or if that's the distinct feel that the writers were going for- I'll probably have to do another playthrough. I recognise there is some stuff in the chapter, but its a shame there's no space for really fleshing them out and exploring them more.

Conversely, I really didn't "get" the Albatross. I don't understand what niche they filled, or how they were "knights" at the end of the day. I understand its probably a matter of stripping down the meaning of what a knightly order is and building it back up into something contradictory to what most people would expect in order to tell us something about Breton society, but that framework didn't come through to me. Maybe I just need to read more, I don't know.

Is it fair to reframe the druids issue as a question of whether they fit organically into the scheme of Breton identity? I think there are historical inspirations in groups such as the sybils, or other ancient greek prhophet-y types who live remote, are misunderstood, feared and sometimes mistrusted, but fit within the framework of Greek society. Or for a more thematic analogue, the celtic Druids who belonged to no tribe nor city. At least in the classical imagination they lived in the wilderness, but were still considered part of the celtic caste system. Meanwhile, the Wyrd (an anglo-saxon word iirc) are pretty much hostile witch covens who are actively aggressive and would only work with cityfolk under extraordinary circumstances. The distinction is blurry because the situations in which you encounter them they *always* end up helping you anyway, so its kinda harder to get the feeling that they're distinct and unique.

Just spitballing, really.

Eporem · August 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

On the contrary I feel like Druids are utterly unnecessary, as they are not unique, and take away from other nature-worshiping races. They feel like a weird fusion of Reach shamanism and Bosmeri Pact-adherence with the way the "Druids of Galen" were presented. Meanwhile the mainstream Bretons were largely boiled down to "kek generic medieval fantasy," which is an utter disservice to Breton fans.

I was hoping we'd get to see the Breton culture explored and expanded on. Instead Q4 looks to be set up as entirely devoted to this small group of Bretons who have nothing in common with the mainstream Breton culture. They don't even worship Y'ffre under the Altmeri/Bretonic name, Jephre.

Overall, I'm expecting Q4 to be a massive disappointment.

My feelings are mostly the exact opposite. I think the Druids, who are said to embrace civilization, fit perfectly as the "missing link" between the city folk and the Wyrd, "unifying" both groups as a coherent people in the process if that makes sense, as it makes the Wyrd less of an extreme outlier so to say. They don't remind me of the Green Pact or Reach shamans in the slightest, besides the general nature theme. In Bosmeri culture the (pretty extreme) Green Pact is basically their way of life, where amongst the Reach clans their shamans are pretty much universally respected as their clan's spiritual guide. Also I believe (not entirely sure) I read that their interaction with their spirits depends on bargaining with them, which is quite different to what we've seen of druids.

Though I especially disagree with the "generic medieval fantasy" part, since I think the Bretons always had that Arthurian questing knight vibe to them. It's one of the things that attracted me to the race since the start and one that I honestly haven't seen in fantasy settings often, oddly enough despite knights and medieval stuff being a long time staple of the genre. And I am happy we saw a lot more of that, since the base game zones didn't often touch on that aspect of their society, which was nonetheless always cited as being very prevalent.

I think the added High Isle lore is definitely applicable to all Bretons, references to the mainland are often given as well as the existence of smaller druidic circles besides the three main ones. In addition it is said there are still druids on the mainland as well, though to a much lesser extent than in the Systres since that is their home. And well since the druid lore is new, I can understand that approach. They sadly won't/can't change the base game zones to include more druid villages or something, but they have incorporated it into the lore which is good imo.

I think there was always gonna be a "divide" between the druids and city folk, since that is kind of a requirement when a group is nature oriented, while also being part of a race that traditionally lives in cities. But still High Isle shows they trade, integrate and interact, which is quite different to the Wyrd who are mostly surrounded by superstition and fear. It is mentioned that druids are respected in Breton society, yet we also see that not everyone trusts them, and how some think them strange or primitive. Which I think is a good thing, since that little detail in perception alone makes them already quite different to the other nature worshipping groups. We also learn that some druids have even taken squires, and some knightly orders integrate druidic teachings.

Though the squire part raises an additional question for me, since now I wonder if "squiring" in that context is used because it is such a common concept in Breton society, or if it is actually possible to be both a druid and a noble(wo)man, since squiring is usually done for a knight, and the latter belongs to the nobility. Especially since there's plenty of references to apprenticeships etc. for other professions, so the use of the word squire was very interesting to me. I hope we will learn more about that with the Druid King.

I would have preferred the name Jephre (or the more obscure Jeh Free) as well, though I can also imagine how the Bretons, who have always been fairly fractured as a people, might have variations or bastardizations of such things even within their own domain.

But all in all I think the vast majority of the added lore is super useful for all Bretons, especially in roleplay. We get to see non-conventional knightly orders such as the sailor bards of the Albatross, which by itself is already really nice new info, since it shows how different the concept of a knightly order can be in High Rock. We already saw a little of that with the Silver Rose dungeon as well, since I believe that was the first showcase of a knightly order which wasn't devoted to either the protection of a city/region, or a Divine.

So I expect Q4 to be great, as High Isle has basically given me about everything I love most about Bretons. And the whole deal with Galen and their druidic ancestry has always been the thing I wondered about, I thought it has been really well done so far. Not perfectly of course, but nothing is perfect.

I like the idea of the Oaken Order representing the Celtic idea of the Green Knight. They're knightly in that they're martial, its just that their code and piety are oriented not to The Divines, but the druids and Nature. Squires are just part of a quintessentially Breton way of doing things, and there's nothing necessarily contradictory in the translation from "holy" knight to "green" knight. I don't know if that is how people feel that the Oaken Order plays out in game, or if that's the distinct feel that the writers were going for- I'll probably have to do another playthrough. I recognise there is some stuff in the chapter, but its a shame there's no space for really fleshing them out and exploring them more.

Conversely, I really didn't "get" the Albatross. I don't understand what niche they filled, or how they were "knights" at the end of the day. I understand its probably a matter of stripping down the meaning of what a knightly order is and building it back up into something contradictory to what most people would expect in order to tell us something about Breton society, but that framework didn't come through to me. Maybe I just need to read more, I don't know.

Is it fair to reframe the druids issue as a question of whether they fit organically into the scheme of Breton identity? I think there are historical inspirations in groups such as the sybils, or other ancient greek prhophet-y types who live remote, are misunderstood, feared and sometimes mistrusted, but fit within the framework of Greek society. Or for a more thematic analogue, the celtic Druids who belonged to no tribe nor city. At least in the classical imagination they lived in the wilderness, but were still considered part of the celtic caste system. Meanwhile, the Wyrd (an anglo-saxon word iirc) are pretty much hostile witch covens who are actively aggressive and would only work with cityfolk under extraordinary circumstances. The distinction is blurry because the situations in which you encounter them they *always* end up helping you anyway, so its kinda harder to get the feeling that they're distinct and unique.

Just spitballing, really.

My thoughts on the Albatross Order was that they are a knightly order that take on quests not necessarily for Glory but moreso for Legacy, what that individual knight may have accomplished in their life and the impact he or she may have had on people and places. Or so it seems from what little Dame Madach said - hopefully the Squire, now Knight Rayan, will be met again.

As far as the Wyrd, the Beldama Wyrd are known to still venerate the ancient forest and commune with the Forest God of the Bretons, Jephre, the Storyteller, and its nature spirits, so maybe the Druids or some at least still do. The Beldama Wyrd are different I believe than the Glenmoril Wyrd, who call upon the Daedra for their spells - though not sure of this as I havent really read much lore of the Glenmoril Wyrd but I do not think the Beldama Wyrd are as hostile and actively aggressive as the Glenmoril Wyrd - I think them more defensive and protective in their actions. And maybe even the Glenmoril Wyrd have just spread rumors of their hostile and aggressive ways in order to scare ones away from them since they do always end up helping:)

I do like this meaning of Wyrd, and how it might relate to the Bretons, though not sure if this meaning of the Wyrd is the same as that of the Wyrd of ESO.
....

Wyrd is a noun formed from the Old English verb weorþan, meaning 'to come to pass, to become'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyrd#Etymology

Edit:

and just came across this of the Albatross Order from here: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Systres_Knightly_Orders_Vol_1

ORDER OF THE ALBATROSS
First, we make our way to the Order of the Albatross, chief among all the knightly orders and twice as brave. Their first knight took flight early in the Second Era, establishing their order on High Isle. It has remained active ever since.

If you would be so kind as to pardon the metaphor, the Order of the Albatross prides itself on its massive wingspan. Their numbers, both in active knights and percentage of Nirn explored, greatly exceeds that of other knightly orders based in the archipelago. This is made possible by the order's focus on adventure, discovery, and daring feats, which draws initiates from the mainland. Dame Josseline Dalot, the order's current knight commander, claims to have discovered more islands in the Abecean than there are stars in the sky. Having spent the greater part of my childhood under her care, I can confirm this fact. Though I have yet to count either the stars or her discoveries, they are certainly comparable.

Fontenot Leila founded the order to give those children of nobility who could not look forward to their parent's inheritance a means of securing their own legacies. A fourth son himself, Fontenot refused recognition for any of his deeds and lived out his days in humility. Legend has it that he even requested his fellow knights leave the title from his name. Truly, Fontenot Leila is a knight that all the aspirants in the Order of the Albatross can look up to.

Gaebriel0410 · August 2022

Aliyavana wrote: »

the prologue says that the druids havnt been seen in High Rock for centuries, so something happened to the druids that stayed behind

And you didn't know the druids are divided into different circles?:
"No. To be honest, we hardly even think about druids. They've been absent from High Rock for centuries. Our stories talk about a singular entity, the Druids of Galen. I suppose I should have realized they'd form subgroups. The wyrds certainly have."

Oh yeah and I love that, since it's a direct contradiction to other characters that either speak about druids living on the mainland, and about High Isle druids travelling the mainland. It shows that NPC's are not all knowing, as either of the opposing statements could be true. So for me that only makes them more mysterious. It makes sense to me that they are more rare or at least not commonly known about like they are in High Isle, which ties in to them not being present in the vanilla zones for obvious reasons. So it's all good to me!

Gaebriel0410 · August 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

I like the idea of the Oaken Order representing the Celtic idea of the Green Knight. They're knightly in that they're martial, its just that their code and piety are oriented not to The Divines, but the druids and Nature. Squires are just part of a quintessentially Breton way of doing things, and there's nothing necessarily contradictory in the translation from "holy" knight to "green" knight. I don't know if that is how people feel that the Oaken Order plays out in game, or if that's the distinct feel that the writers were going for- I'll probably have to do another playthrough. I recognise there is some stuff in the chapter, but its a shame there's no space for really fleshing them out and exploring them more.

I haven't seen much about the Oaken Order yet so I am not entirely sure what they do besides incorporating druidic teachings.

But yes I think I agree, I would say that piety is not restricted to solely the Divines, because the Breton pantheon is larger than only the Eight. So I think that technically a knight who reveres Jephre should be considered equally pious as one who reveres Stendarr for example, since both are prominent deities in their pantheon. Of course not all deities are likely equal to everyone so that varies in practicality, but yeah.

What I mainly wondered about was the nobility and prestige aspect, since if druids take squires, would it be considered equally prestigious as squiring for a knight? Could someone be a druid and a nobleman at the same time? Since it didn't sound like being a squire was the "standard" way to become a druid, at least not in the same manner as the squire to knight relationship.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Conversely, I really didn't "get" the Albatross. I don't understand what niche they filled, or how they were "knights" at the end of the day. I understand its probably a matter of stripping down the meaning of what a knightly order is and building it back up into something contradictory to what most people would expect in order to tell us something about Breton society, but that framework didn't come through to me. Maybe I just need to read more, I don't know.

Oh I didn't even like them that much by themselves haha, I mainly really liked the example it gave of something quite unconventional being a legit knightly order in Breton society. Since besides the added lore, that also gives a bit of a framework on the possibilities of playing lore-appropriate characters that serve in less traditional knightly orders, which is great for roleplay imo.

psychotrip · August 2022

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

the prologue says that the druids havnt been seen in High Rock for centuries, so something happened to the druids that stayed behind

And you didn't know the druids are divided into different circles?:
"No. To be honest, we hardly even think about druids. They've been absent from High Rock for centuries. Our stories talk about a singular entity, the Druids of Galen. I suppose I should have realized they'd form subgroups. The wyrds certainly have."

It shows that NPC's are not all knowing, as either of the opposing statements could be true.

Wellp, I guess its not an eldee scrolls thread without someone using the unreliable narrator to explain away plot holes and retcons.

ES has exhausted this writing technique to the point of absurdity. It's devolved to the point where even the fanbase is gaslighting itself.

Eporem · August 2022

so a question of the Druids of Galen - from reading a bit of them here:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Druids_of_Galen#:~:text=The Druids of Galen (also,by the early First Era.

The Druids of Galen (also known as the descendants of Galen[1] and the druids of old)[2] were the Nedic[3] ancestors of the Bretons[4] that survived in ancient High Rock by tapping into, nurturing, and terraforming nature.[1] Due to intermingling with the Aldmer, they later transitioned into becoming Bretons by the early First Era.[nb 1] The druids of old were led by a line of ancient kings,[2] and the last Druid King led them to their final voyage to the the Systres, where they split into various druidic circles.[1] The isle of Galen may be named for them.

were the very first Druids, the Druids of Galen, of the Nedic race?

Aliyavana · August 2022

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

the prologue says that the druids havnt been seen in High Rock for centuries, so something happened to the druids that stayed behind

And you didn't know the druids are divided into different circles?:
"No. To be honest, we hardly even think about druids. They've been absent from High Rock for centuries. Our stories talk about a singular entity, the Druids of Galen. I suppose I should have realized they'd form subgroups. The wyrds certainly have."

Oh yeah and I love that, since it's a direct contradiction to other characters that either speak about druids living on the mainland, and about High Isle druids travelling the mainland. It shows that NPC's are not all knowing, as either of the opposing statements could be true. So for me that only makes them more mysterious. It makes sense to me that they are more rare or at least not commonly known about like they are in High Isle, which ties in to them not being present in the vanilla zones for obvious reasons. So it's all good to me!

keep in mind that the high isle druids are pretty isolated. it may have been true when they departed, but something happened to the mainlanders after.

Supreme_Atromancer · August 2022

Eporem wrote: »

so a question of the Druids of Galen - from reading a bit of them here:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Druids_of_Galen#:~:text=The Druids of Galen (also,by the early First Era.

The Druids of Galen (also known as the descendants of Galen[1] and the druids of old)[2] were the Nedic[3] ancestors of the Bretons[4] that survived in ancient High Rock by tapping into, nurturing, and terraforming nature.[1] Due to intermingling with the Aldmer, they later transitioned into becoming Bretons by the early First Era.[nb 1] The druids of old were led by a line of ancient kings,[2] and the last Druid King led them to their final voyage to the the Systres, where they split into various druidic circles.[1] The isle of Galen may be named for them.

were the very first Druids, the Druids of Galen, of the Nedic race?

Its uncertain. Several sources describe Druidic practise as Breton.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Druid_Ryvana#:~:text=Druid Ryvana is a Breton,her hut outside Gonfalon Bay.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Wyrd_and_Druid

The source for Nedic origins quoted in that article you've quoted doesn't actually directly support the statement, so it probably represents original research. UESP used to be really strictly against original research, but these days some of that community don't really recognise its importance, so how much weight you give something will depend on your stance.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if Druidry was intended to be a Nedic tradition, and a source doesn't yet exist (or- I just haven't found one yet!). It would make a lot of sense for that to be so.

TinyDragon · August 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

[quote="The source for Nedic origins quoted in that article you've quoted doesn't actually directly support the statement, so it probably represents original research. UESP used to be really strictly against original research, but these days some of that community don't really recognise its importance, so how much weight you give something will depend on your stance.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if Druidry was intended to be a Nedic tradition, and a source doesn't yet exist (or- I just haven't found one yet!). It would make a lot of sense for that to be so.

Yes, the UESP article has a reference for the Nedic part which has no mention of the Druids- it's referring to the origin of the Bretons.

I think it's unknown if the Druids of Galen were Nedic or Breton- there isn't any lore that I know of to do more than speculate with.

RaddlemanNumber7 · August 2022

I think the Druids were influenced far more by their High Elven teachers than they were by their primitive Nedic ancestors. That's why Druids call the god Y'ffre, not Jephre like other Bretons do.

"Eventually, the daughters and sons of the one called Anuiel gave us the words: Y'ffre, the Green-King, the Slumbering Father of Nirn. We took succor from the soil, from the stones, and from the beasts of the forests." Wyrd and Druid, Transcribed from Archdruid Barnabe's Discourse with Mainlanders, 2E 553 - on the druidic origins of the Bretons

The Druids got their understanding of Y'ffre from the High Elves. They bought into the High Elves dogma and called it "The True Way".

As far as the High Elves, the children of Anuiel, are concerned Y'ffre is a lesser god. That attitude is adopted by the Druids.

Hence the Druids domineering attitude towards nature spirits, and their prioritisation of their own "civilisation" over the natural world. That is what we see in the game - domination of, and violence towards nature.

Notice the language used in the above quote from Wyrd and Druid - it says, "We took from the soil, etc" - that does not describe a transaction, but an exaction.

Eporem · August 2022

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I think the Druids were influenced far more by their High Elven teachers than they were by their primitive Nedic ancestors. That's why Druids call the god Y'ffre, not Jephre like other Bretons do.

"Eventually, the daughters and sons of the one called Anuiel gave us the words: Y'ffre, the Green-King, the Slumbering Father of Nirn. We took succor from the soil, from the stones, and from the beasts of the forests." Wyrd and Druid, Transcribed from Archdruid Barnabe's Discourse with Mainlanders, 2E 553 - on the druidic origins of the Bretons

The Druids got their understanding of Y'ffre from the High Elves. They bought into the High Elves dogma and called it "The True Way".

As far as the High Elves, the children of Anuiel, are concerned Y'ffre is a lesser god. That attitude is adopted by the Druids.

Hence the Druids domineering attitude towards nature spirits, and their prioritisation of their own "civilisation" over the natural world. That is what we see in the game - domination of, and violence towards nature.

Notice the language used in the above quote from Wyrd and Druid - it says, "We took from the soil, etc" - that does not describe a transaction, but an exaction.

The Druids that believe that a Nature God and its spirits are lesser might be in for a surprise then. I think it is not all one sided.

RaddlemanNumber7 · August 2022

Eporem wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I think the Druids were influenced far more by their High Elven teachers than they were by their primitive Nedic ancestors. That's why Druids call the god Y'ffre, not Jephre like other Bretons do.

"Eventually, the daughters and sons of the one called Anuiel gave us the words: Y'ffre, the Green-King, the Slumbering Father of Nirn. We took succor from the soil, from the stones, and from the beasts of the forests." Wyrd and Druid, Transcribed from Archdruid Barnabe's Discourse with Mainlanders, 2E 553 - on the druidic origins of the Bretons

The Druids got their understanding of Y'ffre from the High Elves. They bought into the High Elves dogma and called it "The True Way".

As far as the High Elves, the children of Anuiel, are concerned Y'ffre is a lesser god. That attitude is adopted by the Druids.

Hence the Druids domineering attitude towards nature spirits, and their prioritisation of their own "civilisation" over the natural world. That is what we see in the game - domination of, and violence towards nature.

Notice the language used in the above quote from Wyrd and Druid - it says, "We took from the soil, etc" - that does not describe a transaction, but an exaction.

The Druids that believe that a Nature God and its spirits are lesser might be in for a surprise then. I think it is not all one sided.

Let's hope!

NotaDaedraWorshipper · August 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Do Green Pact Bosmer eat Mushrooms? They are more closely related to animals than plants, yet they are sessile and serve an important part of the nutrient cycle. And for that matter, so do animals. Why are they against forest fires? They're presumably bad for Mer, but they serve an essential part of the ecological processes that sustain communities.

Yes they do. Mushrooms are fine to eat according to the Green Pact, even confirmed by the Green Lady.

BlissfulDeluge · August 2022

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

On the contrary I feel like Druids are utterly unnecessary, as they are not unique, and take away from other nature-worshiping races. They feel like a weird fusion of Reach shamanism and Bosmeri Pact-adherence with the way the "Druids of Galen" were presented. Meanwhile the mainstream Bretons were largely boiled down to "kek generic medieval fantasy," which is an utter disservice to Breton fans.

I was hoping we'd get to see the Breton culture explored and expanded on. Instead Q4 looks to be set up as entirely devoted to this small group of Bretons who have nothing in common with the mainstream Breton culture. They don't even worship Y'ffre under the Altmeri/Bretonic name, Jephre.

Overall, I'm expecting Q4 to be a massive disappointment.

TL/DR

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. They utterly ignored any Elven influences, ignored the Bretons' reputation as intelligent, showed no true distinction between the classes or what supposedly makes Bretonic classism different from other hierarchies in Tamriel, ignored the Bretons' reputation as inventive, and disregarded anything that could make Bretons unique. Druidism's niche of nature worship is already filled by Bosmer, Reachmen and Wyrd. The Altmer, Dunmer and Imperials all have knights. Upward mobility exists both in Dunmeri society with house ranks and Nordic society with thanedoms. Imperials and Dunmer are both known for plots and intrigues. All the Elven races are inherently talented with magic.

Q4 is set up to be focused on Druidism, and sure, Druids of Galen might make for a cool "civilized druid" vibe, but overall? I don't have high hopes at all. I'd argue base game did a better job portraying the Bretons, but I already wrote an essay of a thread here.