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Ideas to improve Redguard passives
StarOfElyon
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Basically:
#1. Wayfarer passive should increase the stats of food or drink by x%
#2. Martial Training should boost weapon traits as suggested on the forums before.
3. Adrenaline Rush should give stamina when doing any type of damage, not just direct damage. It should also restore stamina when taking damage, reinforcing their reputation for endurance.
You should watch the video below to get a better feel for the reasoning behind my proposal.
https://youtu.be/VH34jFhLPHI
#1. Wayfarer passive should increase the stats of food or drink by x%
#2. Martial Training should boost weapon traits as suggested on the forums before.
3. Adrenaline Rush should give stamina when doing any type of damage, not just direct damage. It should also restore stamina when taking damage, reinforcing their reputation for endurance.
You should watch the video below to get a better feel for the reasoning behind my proposal.
https://youtu.be/VH34jFhLPHI 2
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BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I honestly think people are overthinking this. Martial training should increase weapon damage by 260 (or whatever racial standard is) while wielding a martial weapon (basically, sword, mace, axe, or 2 handed versions).
Just like I think woodelves should get a damage bonus while wielding a bow. Its the best way to make these two races competitive while fitting within the constructs of their lore.
Just IMO.2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I really like ideas #1 and #2, they are unique, impactful, and could be balanced fairly easily. I don't really think #3 is necessary, one tick of direct damage every 5s is already an easy proc condition.
Wayfarer could provide a 10% boost to food/drink stats. With a standard bistat food this would give about 500 stamina and health, or 500 stamina and 50 recovery. To avoid becoming too strong, the 2000 stamina passive could be reduced to 1500. This means Wayfarer would provide a choice of a small survivability boost or a small recovery boost, without increasing damage. To your point, either of these stats emphasizes their endurance. It would also allow some flexibility in the stat bonus if someone wanted to play a tank, healer or magicka DPS as redguard.
For weapon traits, a value of 50% for a standard DW front/2h back build:
- 100 Weapon Damage from Nirnhoned 1h
- 1.8% crit chance from Precise 1h
- 52 Weapon Damage from improved Infused Berserker 2h
Those 3 stats combined result in approx 3% DPS, which is very slightly lower than the boost from a standard 258 Weapon Damage racial bonus. I think Adrenaline Rush would need a nerf so the class didn't have both competitive damage and excellent sustain.
Improving weapon traits also helps other roles. A Redguard support would have a stronger Infused Crusher or Weakening Enchant, as well as generating slightly more ultimate with a buffed Decisive trait. A tank could get more armor from an increased Defending trait. A brittle build could see more uptime from an improved Charged trait. None of these are overpowered, but they provide unique benefits for various roles and allow the player to choose.
I would definitely support the Redguard passives becoming:
Wayfarer - Increases the effects of food and drinks by 10%
Martial Training - Increase the effect of weapon traits by 50%.
Conditioning - Increase maximum Stamina by 1500 and reduce the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%.
Adrenaline Rush - Restores 500 Stamina when you deal direct damage every 5s.4 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »I honestly think people are overthinking this. Martial training should increase weapon damage by 260 (or whatever racial standard is) while wielding a martial weapon (basically, sword, mace, axe, or 2 handed versions).
Just like I think woodelves should get a damage bonus while wielding a bow. Its the best way to make these two races competitive while fitting within the constructs of their lore.
Just IMO.
That sounds way more complicated than what I suggested. It also pigeon holes them into using certain weapon types. no thanksEdited by StarOfElyon on 5 August 2022 17:011 -
Kory✭✭✭✭Some ideas
-Reduce cost to all stamina abilities
- Increase the effect of weapon traits
- Resistance to poison and disease damage0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wayfarer is a flavor passive. It's not allowed to provide any real performance bonuses.
Look at the other first tier racial passives. They all increase the rate at which a skill levels up by 15% and provide a small bonus that's useless in combat. There's no way ZOS would break that pattern for Redguard.
Note: Someone could probably argue that the Argonian, Dunmer, and Bosmer passives have combat utility, but they all require extremely niche circumstances that don't really come up in practice.Edited by the1andonlyskwex on 6 August 2022 05:500 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Wayfarer is a flavor passive. It's not allowed to provide any real performance bonuses.
Look at the other first tier racial passives. They all increase the rate at which a skill levels up by 15% and provide a small bonus that's useless in combat. There's no way ZOS would break that pattern for Redguard.
Note: Someone could probably argue that the Argonian, Dunmer, and Bosmer passives have combat utility, but they all require extremely niche circumstances that don't really come up in practice.
Yeah, there's not really a hard line about combat effectiveness. I agree Argonian, Dunmer and Bosmer have niche combat bonuses, and that experience bonuses don't really help combat (assuming things are already leveled). Even current Redguard and Nord could fall on that side of the line, if it means your food/drink bonus does not run out in the middle of battle. Imperial's gold increase can indirectly help combat, whether it means better potions, gear upgrades, or repairs. I don't see any issue with any of these passives becoming more combat-effective.2 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Wayfarer is a flavor passive. It's not allowed to provide any real performance bonuses.
Look at the other first tier racial passives. They all increase the rate at which a skill levels up by 15% and provide a small bonus that's useless in combat. There's no way ZOS would break that pattern for Redguard.
Note: Someone could probably argue that the Argonian, Dunmer, and Bosmer passives have combat utility, but they all require extremely niche circumstances that don't really come up in practice.
Yeah, there's not really a hard line about combat effectiveness. I agree Argonian, Dunmer and Bosmer have niche combat bonuses, and that experience bonuses don't really help combat (assuming things are already leveled). Even current Redguard and Nord could fall on that side of the line, if it means your food/drink bonus does not run out in the middle of battle. Imperial's gold increase can indirectly help combat, whether it means better potions, gear upgrades, or repairs. I don't see any issue with any of these passives becoming more combat-effective.
Making food and drink stronger is way on the wrong side of the line. You'd have better chances asking for Conditioning to provide 4000 max stamina instead of 2000.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Wayfarer is a flavor passive. It's not allowed to provide any real performance bonuses.
Look at the other first tier racial passives. They all increase the rate at which a skill levels up by 15% and provide a small bonus that's useless in combat. There's no way ZOS would break that pattern for Redguard.
Note: Someone could probably argue that the Argonian, Dunmer, and Bosmer passives have combat utility, but they all require extremely niche circumstances that don't really come up in practice.
Yeah, there's not really a hard line about combat effectiveness. I agree Argonian, Dunmer and Bosmer have niche combat bonuses, and that experience bonuses don't really help combat (assuming things are already leveled). Even current Redguard and Nord could fall on that side of the line, if it means your food/drink bonus does not run out in the middle of battle. Imperial's gold increase can indirectly help combat, whether it means better potions, gear upgrades, or repairs. I don't see any issue with any of these passives becoming more combat-effective.
Making food and drink stronger is way on the wrong side of the line. You'd have better chances asking for Conditioning to provide 4000 max stamina instead of 2000.
I'm saying the line is so hazy I can't tell where it falls, or if it even exists. At least 6/10 races can perform better in combat due to their free flavor passive, even if the scenario is rare. The other 4 races also perform better in combat until maxing out their skills. I'm not convinced a combat bonus is off limits.1 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Wayfarer is a flavor passive. It's not allowed to provide any real performance bonuses.
Look at the other first tier racial passives. They all increase the rate at which a skill levels up by 15% and provide a small bonus that's useless in combat. There's no way ZOS would break that pattern for Redguard.
Note: Someone could probably argue that the Argonian, Dunmer, and Bosmer passives have combat utility, but they all require extremely niche circumstances that don't really come up in practice.
Yeah, there's not really a hard line about combat effectiveness. I agree Argonian, Dunmer and Bosmer have niche combat bonuses, and that experience bonuses don't really help combat (assuming things are already leveled). Even current Redguard and Nord could fall on that side of the line, if it means your food/drink bonus does not run out in the middle of battle. Imperial's gold increase can indirectly help combat, whether it means better potions, gear upgrades, or repairs. I don't see any issue with any of these passives becoming more combat-effective.
Making food and drink stronger is way on the wrong side of the line. You'd have better chances asking for Conditioning to provide 4000 max stamina instead of 2000.
I'm saying the line is so hazy I can't tell where it falls, or if it even exists. At least 6/10 races can perform better in combat due to their free flavor passive, even if the scenario is rare. The other 4 races also perform better in combat until maxing out their skills. I'm not convinced a combat bonus is off limits.
It sounds like you're being willfully obtuse. It's not hard to tell the difference between extremely situational bonuses that are only marginally useful even on the rare occasions that they come up, and a bonus that's pretty much always useful (and comparable to a 2-4 piece armor set bonus).0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Wayfarer is a flavor passive. It's not allowed to provide any real performance bonuses.
Look at the other first tier racial passives. They all increase the rate at which a skill levels up by 15% and provide a small bonus that's useless in combat. There's no way ZOS would break that pattern for Redguard.
Note: Someone could probably argue that the Argonian, Dunmer, and Bosmer passives have combat utility, but they all require extremely niche circumstances that don't really come up in practice.
Yeah, there's not really a hard line about combat effectiveness. I agree Argonian, Dunmer and Bosmer have niche combat bonuses, and that experience bonuses don't really help combat (assuming things are already leveled). Even current Redguard and Nord could fall on that side of the line, if it means your food/drink bonus does not run out in the middle of battle. Imperial's gold increase can indirectly help combat, whether it means better potions, gear upgrades, or repairs. I don't see any issue with any of these passives becoming more combat-effective.
Making food and drink stronger is way on the wrong side of the line. You'd have better chances asking for Conditioning to provide 4000 max stamina instead of 2000.
I'm saying the line is so hazy I can't tell where it falls, or if it even exists. At least 6/10 races can perform better in combat due to their free flavor passive, even if the scenario is rare. The other 4 races also perform better in combat until maxing out their skills. I'm not convinced a combat bonus is off limits.
It sounds like you're being willfully obtuse. It's not hard to tell the difference between extremely situational bonuses that are only marginally useful even on the rare occasions that they come up, and a bonus that's pretty much always useful (and comparable to a 2-4 piece armor set bonus).
As far as I know, there's no hard rule against this idea. So, I don't see a point in being certain that it can't/won't happen.
Anyway, the Redguards need some serious help. This is by far my most frustrating race to build with. As it is, that Adrenaline Rush passive is only good for target dummy humping. It does no good in a PVP environment.1 -
Stncold✭✭✭I will never understand why ORCS have move speed stuff when nothing in the lore has ever pointed to them being fast. Hell they were even the slowest race in Morrowind. The race often described as the most athletic should have gotten that instead. My best theory is whomever came up with that binged the LOTR trilogy the night before and took inspiration from the Uruk-Hai.
Anyway rant over. Change martial training to stam abilities instead. Weapons is just outdated in a time when most class spammables are great and it's not uncommon to see builds of all class abilities. The snare needs to be changed to something useful. I pretty much never actually notice it. Either dodge reduction or a free dodge every x seconds sounds much better.
Conditioning could stand to gain another 1k stam seeing as dunmer are allowed to have 1.9k both mag and stam.
Adrenaline rush is actually good so it doesn't really need changing imo, but something like disease/poison resistance could be nice instead.1 -
Kory✭✭✭✭Adrenaline Rush could be buffed to give weapon damage as well. Being one of the races that absolutely should have it anyway. *Looking at high elves and dark elves......Orcs were giving spell damage too in the hybridization updates.1
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Suligost✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »Basically:
#1. Wayfarer passive should increase the stats of food or drink by x%
#2. Martial Training should boost weapon traits as suggested on the forums before.
3. Adrenaline Rush should give stamina when doing any type of damage, not just direct damage. It should also restore stamina when taking damage, reinforcing their reputation for endurance.
You should watch the video below to get a better feel for the reasoning behind my proposal.https://youtu.be/VH34jFhLPHI
If that would pass then I want Orc berserker rage like in lore; dmg boost + dmg mitigation xD0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Adrenaline Rush could be buffed to give weapon damage as well. Being one of the races that absolutely should have it anyway. *Looking at high elves and dark elves......Orcs were giving spell damage too in the hybridization updates.
I'm fine with them getting damage in other ways. I'd take a crit chance bonus.
There have been a lot of threads on improving the Redguard race. I hope ZOS finally listens.
Edited by StarOfElyon on 7 August 2022 14:301 -
AndreNoir✭✭✭IMO just make them more opposite to nords: add penetration/damage done and ult gain on dealing damage
Also base combat skill (sprint/block/etc) discount would be cool too and fit battle theme1 -
TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.Edited by TheGreatBlackBear on 8 August 2022 20:281 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Like you said, for tanking... depending on the fight.2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Nord says hello. It's hard to beat more ultimates, whether it's higher Warhorn uptime or more frequent Magma Shells.3 -
TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Nord says hello. It's hard to beat more ultimates, whether it's higher Warhorn uptime or more frequent Magma Shells.
Please educate yourself. Nord was a strong choice several patches ago to help you meet the resistance cap. Nowadays it’s much less useful. The reality is
Nord’s ultigen is irrelevant.
1)it’s already easy to get 100% major force uptime in a coordinated group between four supports with Sax
2) the ultigen is tied to being hit which doesn’t always happen on the CD.
3) the amount of ultimate generated is small. Working out to needing be hit 50 times over 500 seconds on CD to get 1 horn. Most fights don’t last that long.
4) there is a horn rotation so even if you get your ultimate up faster you still stick timelines and horn rotations.
0 -
Kory✭✭✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Imperial, Nord, Argonian and then there is everyone one else as far as tanking. "Best in slot" You are exaggerating for some reason.0 -
TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Imperial, Nord, Argonian and then there is everyone one else as far as tanking. "Best in slot" You are exaggerating for some reason.
Get with the times. Imperial edges out Reguards in fights where you need mag sustain more like cloudrest or where you cannot hit something to proc Redguard's passive. Otherwise they're very close to each other. Nord is not that highly rated as it once was for the reasons I outlined above and agonians have fallen out of favour because the potion passive is too situational and ends up being easily wasted. [snip]
[Edited for Baiting]Edited by Psiion on 12 August 2022 03:481 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Imperial, Nord, Argonian and then there is everyone one else as far as tanking. "Best in slot" You are exaggerating for some reason.
Get with the times. Imperial edges out Reguards in fights where you need mag sustain more like cloudrest or where you cannot hit something to proc Redguard's passive. Otherwise they're very close to each other. Nord is not that highly rated as it once was for the reasons I outlined above and agonians have fallen out of favour because the potion passive is too situational and ends up being easily wasted. [snip]
[Edited for Baiting]
Still having Redguards be good thanks doesn't mean they don't need help with being viable for other roles, especially in PVP. I rarely ever see a build where Redguard is a top three choice for a damage dealer or in a pvp build. I don't remember seeing one at all, really. Maybe you just don't want to see them be on par with other races but I do.Edited by Psiion on 12 August 2022 03:482 -
TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭StarOfElyon wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Imperial, Nord, Argonian and then there is everyone one else as far as tanking. "Best in slot" You are exaggerating for some reason.
Get with the times. Imperial edges out Reguards in fights where you need mag sustain more like cloudrest or where you cannot hit something to proc Redguard's passive. Otherwise they're very close to each other. Nord is not that highly rated as it once was for the reasons I outlined above and agonians have fallen out of favour because the potion passive is too situational and ends up being easily wasted. [snip]
[Edited for Baiting]
Still having Redguards be good thanks doesn't mean they don't need help with being viable for other roles, especially in PVP. I rarely ever see a build where Redguard is a top three choice for a damage dealer or in a pvp build. I don't remember seeing one at all, really. Maybe you just don't want to see them be on par with other races but I do.
Redguards are very strong but you are willfully ignoring the role that they are strongest in. [snip] It would be like if I did a whole buff Breton write-up because they're way down the pecking order for DPS and tanks.
Redguards restore in excess of 12k stamina per minute in most PVE combat situations. That is disgusting. Just not for damage dealers in the current meta that revolves around having low stamina, or having your healers provide extra sources of sustain.
[Edited for Baiting]Edited by Psiion on 12 August 2022 03:491 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Imperial, Nord, Argonian and then there is everyone one else as far as tanking. "Best in slot" You are exaggerating for some reason.
Get with the times. Imperial edges out Reguards in fights where you need mag sustain more like cloudrest or where you cannot hit something to proc Redguard's passive. Otherwise they're very close to each other. Nord is not that highly rated as it once was for the reasons I outlined above and agonians have fallen out of favour because the potion passive is too situational and ends up being easily wasted. [snip]
[Edited for Baiting]
Still having Redguards be good thanks doesn't mean they don't need help with being viable for other roles, especially in PVP. I rarely ever see a build where Redguard is a top three choice for a damage dealer or in a pvp build. I don't remember seeing one at all, really. Maybe you just don't want to see them be on par with other races but I do.
Redguards are very strong but you are willfully ignoring the role that they are strongest in. [snip] It would be like if I did a whole buff Breton write-up because they're way down the pecking order for DPS and tanks.
Redguards restore in excess of 12k stamina per minute in most PVE combat situations. That is disgusting. Just not for damage dealers in the current meta that revolves around having low stamina, or having your healers provide extra sources of sustain.
[Edited for Baiting]
Again, I said outside of target dummy [snip], in environments such as PVP, there is room for improvement. I gave my reasons. [snip] It must be that you don't want the status quo, or the meta, changed. I don't care about your meta. My point still stands, I want to enjoy my Redguard more but there are lacking areas that I believe need to adjusted. It can come in the way resources are restored or in other passives.
[Edited for Inappropriate Language and Response to removed content]Edited by Psiion on 12 August 2022 03:511 -
Kory✭✭✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Imperial, Nord, Argonian and then there is everyone one else as far as tanking. "Best in slot" You are exaggerating for some reason.
Get with the times. Imperial edges out Reguards in fights where you need mag sustain more like cloudrest or where you cannot hit something to proc Redguard's passive. Otherwise they're very close to each other. Nord is not that highly rated as it once was for the reasons I outlined above and agonians have fallen out of favour because the potion passive is too situational and ends up being easily wasted. [snip]
[Edited for Baiting]
[snip]I've viewed dozens of Meta tank builds, and Nord, Imperial, and Argonian were always top recommended. Any race can Tank effectively, and Redguard was always recommended as an "other" or "you can if you want too" (Just like Orcs or Bretons as far as tanking). It's not the best Tank ever as you really want people to believe.
Also you haven't mentioned PvP or other aspects of PVE. You just seem to want to talk about PVE tanking....
[Edited to remove response to removed content]
Edited by Psiion on 12 August 2022 03:520 -
Kory✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Imperial, Nord, Argonian and then there is everyone one else as far as tanking. "Best in slot" You are exaggerating for some reason.
Get with the times. Imperial edges out Reguards in fights where you need mag sustain more like cloudrest or where you cannot hit something to proc Redguard's passive. Otherwise they're very close to each other. Nord is not that highly rated as it once was for the reasons I outlined above and agonians have fallen out of favour because the potion passive is too situational and ends up being easily wasted. [snip]
[Edited for Baiting]
Still having Redguards be good thanks doesn't mean they don't need help with being viable for other roles, especially in PVP. I rarely ever see a build where Redguard is a top three choice for a damage dealer or in a pvp build. I don't remember seeing one at all, really. Maybe you just don't want to see them be on par with other races but I do.
Redguards are very strong but you are willfully ignoring the role that they are strongest in. Do you understand how silly you appear? It would be like if I did a whole buff Breton write-up because they're way down the pecking order for DPS and tanks.
Redguards restore in excess of 12k stamina per minute in most PVE combat situations. That is disgusting. Just not for damage dealers in the current meta that revolves around having low stamina, or having your healers provide extra sources of sustain.
Again, I said outside of target dummy [snip], in environments such as PVP, there is room for improvement. I gave my reasons. [snip] It must be that you don't want the status quo, or the meta, changed. I don't care about your meta. My point still stands, I want to enjoy my Redguard more but there are lacking areas that I believe need to adjusted. It can come in the way resources are restored or in other passives.
[Edited for Inappropriate Language and Response to removed content]
I have a Nord Warden tank, and stamina sustain isn't an issue. Go figure.
I had a Redguard nightblade when I first started playing 2 years ago before I knew how to make a build....Learned more about builds, got better more competent of a player, and now my Nightblade is a Dunmer(dark elf) and it's better than ever. I can't go wrong with Khajjit either. Orc or High elf even. But my old redguard unfortunately wasn't as effective (from a pvp perspective).
Thing is.....I want to play my Redguard. That's just my perspective.Edited by Psiion on 12 August 2022 03:530 -
Kory✭✭✭✭to add to that ^^Honestly being a Redguard nightblade for so long helped me get better at the game. You don't get the useful damage modifiers, speed, or resistances, but you get a unique static stamina sustain passive that can't be buffed by other modifiers like other races.
For example, wood elf players can build into Stamina recovery because they actually have the stamina recovery modifier. I've seen arguments that Wood elf stam sustain is better than redguards simply because of that (in another thread about buffing redguards). It's a good point to me. That's how "builds" work, you build into modifiers to get better numbers for more effective gameplay.0 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭
Thing You forget here is that there are also enchantments like crusher or weakening which buffs whole group.WrathOfInnos wrote: »For weapon traits, a value of 50% for a standard DW front/2h back build:
- 100 Weapon Damage from Nirnhoned 1h
- 1.8% crit chance from Precise 1h
- 52 Weapon Damage from improved Infused Berserker 2h
0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Nord says hello. It's hard to beat more ultimates, whether it's higher Warhorn uptime or more frequent Magma Shells.
Please educate yourself. Nord was a strong choice several patches ago to help you meet the resistance cap. Nowadays it’s much less useful. The reality is
Nord’s ultigen is irrelevant.
1)it’s already easy to get 100% major force uptime in a coordinated group between four supports with Sax
2) the ultigen is tied to being hit which doesn’t always happen on the CD.
3) the amount of ultimate generated is small. Working out to needing be hit 50 times over 500 seconds on CD to get 1 horn. Most fights don’t last that long.
4) there is a horn rotation so even if you get your ultimate up faster you still stick timelines and horn rotations.
Four supports with Sax??? Yeah that would give some nice uptimes, but you'd be giving up a lot of other support sets.
The Nord ult gen passive turns a 63s Warhorn cooldown into 56s. Getting Major Force 7s sooner can absolutely make a difference in uptimes, and you don't necessarily care if it aligns with healer horn timing (the fight or phase may end before that point, or maybe one support is a Necro in the colossus rotation). For reference, Imperial would be 59s with the ult cost reduction, so a clear 2nd best IMO.
Redguard, Argonian and to a lesser extent Breton make decent tanks because they are easier to play and sustain, but they bring nothing tangible to a group and cannot be considered meta. Calling any of these better than Nord is like saying Engine Guardian is a better monster set than Nazaray (easier to play, but doesn't help the group uptimes).Edited by WrathOfInnos on 11 August 2022 23:082 -
Kory✭✭✭✭
[snip]TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Imperial, Nord, Argonian and then there is everyone one else as far as tanking. "Best in slot" You are exaggerating for some reason.
Get with the times. Imperial edges out Reguards in fights where you need mag sustain more like cloudrest or where you cannot hit something to proc Redguard's passive. Otherwise they're very close to each other. Nord is not that highly rated as it once was for the reasons I outlined above and agonians have fallen out of favour because the potion passive is too situational and ends up being easily wasted. [snip]
[Edited for Baiting]
[snip] I've viewed dozens of Meta tank builds, and Nord, Imperial, and Argonian were always top recommended. Any race can Tank effectively, and Redguard was always recommended as an "other" or "you can if you want too" (Just like Orcs or Bretons as far as tanking). It's not the best Tank ever as you really want people to believe.
Also you haven't mentioned PvP or other aspects of PVE. You just seem to want to talk about PVE tanking....
[Edited to remove response to removed content]
[Quoted Post Removed]WrathOfInnos wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »Redguard is literally BIS or second BIS behind Imperial for tanking depending on the fight. The race is in a very good place.
Nord says hello. It's hard to beat more ultimates, whether it's higher Warhorn uptime or more frequent Magma Shells.
Please educate yourself. Nord was a strong choice several patches ago to help you meet the resistance cap. Nowadays it’s much less useful. The reality is
Nord’s ultigen is irrelevant.
1)it’s already easy to get 100% major force uptime in a coordinated group between four supports with Sax
2) the ultigen is tied to being hit which doesn’t always happen on the CD.
3) the amount of ultimate generated is small. Working out to needing be hit 50 times over 500 seconds on CD to get 1 horn. Most fights don’t last that long.
4) there is a horn rotation so even if you get your ultimate up faster you still stick timelines and horn rotations.
Four supports with Sax??? Yeah that would give some nice uptimes, but you'd be giving up a lot of other support sets.
The Nord ult gen passive turns a 63s Warhorn cooldown into 56s. Getting Major Force 7s sooner can absolutely make a difference in uptimes, and you don't necessarily care if it aligns with healer horn timing (the fight or phase may end before that point, or maybe one support is a Necro in the colossus rotation). For reference, Imperial would be 59s with the ult cost reduction, so a clear 2nd best IMO.
Redguard, Argonian and to a lesser extent Breton make decent tanks because they are easier to play and sustain, but they bring nothing tangible to a group and cannot be considered meta. Calling any of these better than Nord is like saying Engine Guardian is a better monster set than Nazaray (easier to play, but doesn't help the group uptimes).
Which is why something like reducing cost to all stamina abilities would be good and have greater implications even outside of all this tanking we love talking about lol, instead of the weapon abilities cost reduction limit...and I call it a limit because Breton, Nord, and Imperial have no such skill-line exclusivity in their cost reduction passives (Ultgen for nord). Benefiting from passives that's obviously more flexible to build with.
So it's just similar but opposite of the Breton.
Edited by Psiion on 12 August 2022 03:550