Why is pvp so beginner-unfriendly?

Flangdoodle · August 2022

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

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Is it always supposed to be like this? Beginners just get their ass kicked constantly until maybe they get better after a long time? I wish there was a place or mode where I could fight players in my own skill level, not be put against pvp gods and go 0-10 at the end of most matches. How are you supposed to learn anything when you die under 5 seconds no matter what you do or how much you try?

Just to be clear and summarize, I dont mind dying and losing, I know it's part of the process. It's constantly being put against groups and players that are waay better than me that makes it unfair, unfun and frustrating. I feel like I'm wasting my time trying to get into Eso's pvp when almost every match is frustarting and unrewarding like this..

There are two questions here:
1) is dying all the time in pvp normal?

2) is it normal that beginners get their asses handed to them all the time?

The answer to both is YES.

Everyone dies in pvp. A lot. All the time. In pve when you die, it's feels like a failure on your part to do the mechanics right. In pvp, you can do the mechanics perfectly and still die. Everyone dies all the time in pvp. Good players, the best players crappy players - everyone. Anyone who says they don't is FOS. You need to wrap your head around that and not let dying bother you. Once that happens, it's as though a weight is lifted and you can start to get better. Use each death as a lesson.

Beginners will always have their asses handed to them. Its the nature of any game. Take it from me - a mediocre player on my best day even after several years in - you will get better. Just keep at it.

Cheers.

OBJnoob · August 2022

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Maintaining buffs, keeping your health up (yourself) and doing damage at the same time is extremely unintuitive without practice, and you can't get much practice when you're getting one shot.

I think the best things a new pvper can do for themselves, that took me hundreds of deaths to figure out are:

-One bar should be for defense, healing and utility, the other should be for doing damage with any utility you need to deliver your damage, and you should balance pool stats/health on both
-get at least four pieces of impen. It makes it feel like a different game, and you're going to get hit at some point. It's one of the defense boosts that costs the least damage.
-Buff before every fight, refresh your buffs when you can. I have best results when I try to keep around 10 seconds on each of my buffs. That way I don't have to buff if someone gets the jump on me. This mechanic might be going away soon
-you should have a focused offense. One spammable attack, a super attack and an execute is a good template. The rest of your slots should be for supporting that approach to offense, or flexing into a secondary role for your team (beware the latter)
-slot every defensive buff you can that won't cut into that focused offense. The more focused your offense is, the tankier you can be without investing in tank stats.
-get the full undaunted bonuses. 6% extra pool stats and health is the most affordable damage/defense/utility trade off on the table. 3/1/3, 2/3/2, and 1/5/1 are great armor loadouts for pvp listed from tankiest to damage dealiest.
-If you can afford them or have a bunch from logging in, use tri stat pots.
-if the set has the word "stack" in it, it's probably bad for pvp.
-And last of all, ain't none of us Superman. If you fight outnumbered against people that are around your skill level you will lose. Succesful 1vXing doesn't usually happen between one good player and x equally good players.

Yup pretty much all that. And uh here’s a totally random tip that I taught myself after hybridization happened that I find extremely helpful: Use a weapon that heavy attacks for stamina on one bar and a weapon for magicka on the other. Front bar back bar doesn’t matter which. The point is, like the person I quoted was talking about being tanky without being a tank or sacrificing too much damage… you can keep more damage if you don’t need as much sustain. Being able to sustain both resources with the occasional heavy attack is pretty OP.

I’ve got a no cloak magblade brawler I use in the no cp campaign that has 700 stam and mag recovery. 700. Never run out of resources.

Dojohoda · August 2022

PvP isn't beginner friendly to all beginners. Worse, Battlegrounds team matching seems off. Time spent in ESO PvE land will not prepare anyone for ESO PvP. There are mechanics that you will need to learn. You know YOUR most played class, but do you know the mechanics of the other classes? You will need to learn some about that because they will use everything they have to destroy you. Melee's favorite way to kill is to lock down the opponent first then damage until dead. Bowman can nuke you from a distance if you are not paying attention, you have 3 seconds maybe. Nightblade like to sneak up behind you and slice 'n' dice. Magsorcs like to blow you up with magical explosions.

Avoiding damage is number one: Use rocks, trees, structures, etc. to use line of sight so your opponents can't hit you while they waste their resources trying to hit you.

Next learn to be evasive by roll dodging at the correct time. You can watch damage causing stuff fly right past you.

Don't forget that sometimes you will need to block. Blocking cuts down on the damage you receive and, in some cases, prevents you from being stunned.

Being fast is useful. Stay alert

Deltia gaming has some resources for beginning PVP, two are mentioned below.
https://deltiasgaming.com/the-reasons-youre-dying-too-much-in-eso-pvp/ This page has a video about surviving.
Deltia has a new youtube video about how to build for pvp as a beginner. If you want to watch it go to youtube and search with the title which is "Stop DYING Watch This! How to Setup Your Build for PvP in ESO"

Austacker · August 2022

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

I'm a pvE vet, made a pvp build recently (magDK, Trickery, BSW, Magma, trainee chest+Markyn) to finally get into pvp and have some fun and maybe do some fun stuff in the upcoming event... and it's just constant ass whooping. Every battleground match, there's a full group of organized strong players going around killing everything in sight. I can't even when make a dent on them 1v1, let alone if they're more. And believe me I'm not exaggerating, out of every 5 matches, 4 were like this, it's so frequent and unrewarding. There was only 1 match which was better balanced and half fun.

Is it always supposed to be like this? Beginners just get their ass kicked constantly until maybe they get better after a long time? I wish there was a place or mode where I could fight players in my own skill level, not be put against pvp gods and go 0-10 at the end of most matches. How are you supposed to learn anything when you die under 5 seconds no matter what you do or how much you try?

Just to be clear and summarize, I dont mind dying and losing, I know it's part of the process. It's constantly being put against groups and players that are waay better than me that makes it unfair, unfun and frustrating. I feel like I'm wasting my time trying to get into Eso's pvp when almost every match is frustarting and unrewarding like this..

I've played many MMOs over the years, but none of them have a PvP game quite as frustrating and unfun as ESO has for me.

It's neither fun or engaging. It's just the same trash of stun - burst - dead rubbish meta from sweaties all day hurling their usual toxic abuse and laughing at the 'PvE scrubs'

Sure as hell, if there wasn't appealing content for me as a PvE player constantly gated behind PvP content walls (like this stupid event), I wouldn't touch PvP in this game with a 20 foot barge pole...

For those of you who will retort with 'the PvP zones are PACKED so clearly everyone else is loving it!'

Let's see what those same zones look like in 2 weeks from now, eh?

Zama666 · August 2022

"players that are waay better than me that makes it unfair, unfun and frustrating"

I think this is the issue....

PvP is a different game that PVE.
Being good at PVE means NOTHING in PvP

PvP means collaboration. The best PvP player in the world dies...much more in PvP than they would in PVE.

People are different than NPC. The gankers are not in the same spot. The mechanics differ from player to player.

FYI - I SUCK at PvP after two year.

Where I am failing - not working with others to learn how.

But little by little, it am coming along.

Get the Combat Plugins add on - see what is killing you.

Dying is good - learn from your mistakes.

Trust me Dood - I am rootin' for you! Get back in there!

Jeezye · August 2022

If you want to learn pvp, you need to understand the underlying mechanics. CC CDs, cycling defensive buffs, burst opportunities, situational awareness.

All of this you won't learn in open world because time for reaction is just too small und toany external factors. Start with duels, understand how to play against each class individually, get thought by other exp pvp/duellers, then progressto more open content like cyro or bgs.

Also beware of current meta, the sets and setups used and how to counter/ avoid thrm

ATomiX69 · August 2022

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

How are you supposed to learn anything when you die under 5 seconds no matter what you do or how much you try?

Duel other people, a 1v1 environment is probably the best way to learn how to play defensive (from scratch), and adapt for multiple people from there.
Dont panic when pvping, when you start panicing and spam dodge rolls or some defensive skills that dont really do anything besides draining your ressources, thats the fastest way to die.
Learn when to use your CC, part of playing defensive is CCing the opponent even when they are completely all over you.
Make a more tank focused setup until you feel comfortable, then swap a defensive set for an offensive one and try to adapt to it.
If you dont know how to build, look up builds online, make sure the builds are for current patch, they arent perfect most of the time but they can give you a good reference point to start from.

And just as a side note: every mmorpg with pvp has a steep learning curve, its not just ESO.

Lebkuchen · August 2022

@Sleeping_OwI "Why is pvp so beginner-unfriendly?"

Because PvP is endgame and you have to know a lot about the game to be a good player. And ESO does not have a good ranking system like other games. It would be so easy to do for BGs, but no. So noobs have to fight veterans and get farmed until they get good enough to run away from better players

kapachia · August 2022

PvP is similar to endgame PvE contents in sense that you need to invest time and resources. You have to invest PvP specific gears and skills. You have to change your mindset from a stationary high DPS parse over a longer period of time in PvE trial to a mobile short burst damage and damage mitigation in PvP.

It is similar to jumping into vet trial with a new toons in PvE. Start with BG and Cyrodiil. Join a PvP guild and run with group until you get more comfortable.

etchedpixels · August 2022

Also group. There's lots of stuff about being good at PvP, but the most important thing is having lots more of you than them. In IC especially you'll hear all sorts about elite 1 v x meta and the rest of it, but if there are 12 of you and 1 of them firstly they'll usually go look for a solo fool and secondly you ought to beat them.

Whether it's imperial city or cyrodiil run with the crowd, especially initially. Also for Cyrodiil noCP can be a good learning space because it hasn't got the totally broken current meta (dark convergence necromancer with goliath, rinse repeat yawn) and gives you a lot more time to think and react as you get up to speed.

CharlieFreak · August 2022

Supershutze wrote: »

Heal meta.

Heal meta turns what should be a fun game into some of the most cancerous experiences a new player could ever have.

I *like* pvp, and I'm not new to it, but heal meta has gotten so ridiculously, horrendously bad that for the first time ever I'm not taking part in the event: I get my tickets and then leave.

The problem new players face isn't losing; I imagine most new players expect to lose. That's normal.

The problem is that new players are thrust into situations where they feel like they have no chance, where they could never have a chance.

It's not that their best efforts wasn't enough; it's that their best efforts had no effect **WHATSOEVER**.

I don't think I need to explain just how incredibly unfun this is.

Heal meta is also the root cause of the 1vX conga lines, the tank metas, and the unkillable sweaty cheese builds, and the ball group cross-healing.

So what exactly is heal meta, and how do we fix it?

Heal meta is the result of two major problems.

Problem 1: Healing scales off the same stats that damage does, meaning that if you build for damage, you get healing for free.

Now, I really hope I don't have to explain why in a game with tank/dps/healer roles having heals and dps rely on the same stats is problematic; this is a problem is pve as well; healers are essentially unneeded in all but the hardest content.

Problem 2: There is no real counter for healing.

There are a bunch of ways to reduce incoming damage; blocking, buffs, sets, and straightforward armour, but there's only 3 ways to reduce healing; major defile, which is really weak, minor defile, which is even weaker, and a single set that is so incredibly useless it might as well not exist(I have never once seen anyone using it).

So how do we fix heal meta?

Problem 1 would be fixed if players building for damage didn't get heals as a consequence of that. I don't exactly know how we could go about doing this without completely rebuilding the relevant systems.

Problem 2 would be fixed if we got some actual counters for heals.

In fact, a lot of the balance problems would either go away or be reduced if we got some real hard counters, a hard counter being any counter that is so powerful that no amount of skill can overcome it.

Too much healing going on? What about a set that applies a status effect that prevents healing entirely? Or reverses the effects...

Too many gankers? Improve the effectiveness of anti-stealth skills. Add sets that prevent stealth within a certain radius.

Too many tanks? Hrothgar says hi.

I could not agree more with this post. It's a completely demoralizing experience for new players. You'll be locked down, stunned, whipped, bombed, jabbed and killed before you can even take a SINGLE action with your character. After that happens a few thousand times, they just quit. A tiny percent will persevere and pvp regularly.

I've tried to get many friends to pvp with me, and after a couple days they're done - vowing to never return. Endless hordes of Nightblades that do INSANE damage. MagDK - apparently designed to give players a taste of what it might be like to solo a veteran raid boss. And finally BombCro - the entire game revolves around this now. Don't ever dare to enter a building to chase someone, or any kind of chokepoint. You'll have zero counterplay and will be sucked into DC and hit with 70k worth of damage. Please don't inform me about blocking. Of course I block, but someone near me will be low health and end up dying, and then the viscious death, occult overlord chain hits and no amount of health, healing, or blocking will save you.

The_Lex · August 2022

If you’re honest about learning PvP with a friendly, experienced group of people, then let me extend a guild invite:

Grimsforge Gaming and Icyfire Gaming are recruiting for their newly formed PVP Guild - Forged for War. Just getting into pvp? Long time pvper looking for a home? We welcome all skill levels. We just ask that you be kind, have fun, and want to learn! BGs, Cyrodiil, Imperial City, Dueling, Guild War Games. CP and NO CP!

https://discord.gg/Pkz8xYF3By

Palumtra · August 2022

Practically every MMO's PvP is beginer unfriendly, so no wonder ESO is not an exception, the learning curve is a bit steep but isn't rocket science either, plus the game is quite old, thus there are tons of guides out there that at the very least help folks to point in the right direction.

Baconlad · August 2022

So I got into PvP through cyrodiil organized ball groups. On off nights, the guild would have multiple groups of small four man teams running around, that's where you learn the most. From there I got into running two man groups. Then I left the guild and ran solo 1vX for a few years before zeni really started targeting the solo playstyle.

As for BGs if you just stick to other players you'll leach heals, use teammates to body block from ranged single target users, and learn to step away from team mates when an AoE melee user hits you.

It's a game of fast paced chess...you'll learn how to defend against certain playstyles.

I am a ranged nuker glass canon, one of my matches just last night had 45 killing blows and 3 deaths to my name. I've been playing PvP for seven years and still am not capable of effectively soloing like the eso greats. I'm a force to be reckoned with for sure. So don't feel bad. You'll figure it out. Just keep it up