if you want to close the gap, you have to do something about potions

Iron_Warrior · August 2022

Potions are one of the biggest factors to improve your dps. A lot of people in PUG groups don't even use them or simply use trash potions that they find in overland. In eso unlike other games potions are not just for emergency use, you have to use them on cooldown to keep up their buffs, so you spend your potions pretty quickly and have to spend a lot of gold or farm for materials to be able to get them, and for that reason a lot of people don't bother with them and use trash potions and lose a lot of dps. So if you want to make the game more accessible for these people you have to do something about potions and the buffs that they provide. I have 2 suggestions

1- add major savagery/prophecy to all abilities that give you major brutality/sorcery. This way people that are using trash pots are still at a disadvantage because they need to sacrifice a slot for an ability that gives them these buffs, but they wouldn't fall behind that much

2- make the bosses drop high quality potions. I think crafters would hate this but this is another way to do it

Parrot1986 · August 2022

Anyone who isn’t aware of the impact and importance of potions likely has way more issues with their performance than missing 20% SD/WD and some crit.

People already use heroism pots and this would just push more to do this.

Unless youre suggesting adding that effect to skills as well which is an even worse solution

Jaraal · August 2022

ZOS has indeed done something about potions. They are making them disappear with Nocturnal’s Ploy.

xaraan · August 2022

Everyone has access to potions. The gap there isn't due to potions, it's due to knowledge, which is what most of the complaints/suggestions have often been about when talking about closing the gap. Teaching players better in the game.

Iron_Warrior · August 2022

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Anyone who isn’t aware of the impact and importance of potions likely has way more issues with their performance than missing 20% SD/WD and some crit.

People already use heroism pots and this would just push more to do this.

Unless youre suggesting adding that effect to skills as well which is an even worse solution

Making those buffs more accessible would not suddenly close the gap but it's a small step. I much rather they take these small steps and make current available assets that help players more accessible instead of making sweeping changes in the name of accessiblity.

It's not only about being aware of the impact of potions, it's also about being able to afford them. A lot of the lower end people that ZOS is trying to cater to them right now just want to hop in to the game play a little and log out. By tieing the crit and wd/sd buffs in abilities you will help them. Yes their rotations would still be bad, yes their choice of skills are bad, and yes they would still struggle with weaving, but again it's a "small" step. These players would still be at a disadvantage because for example somebody that is using a 2h backbar and decides to slot rally for wd and crit buff, is still at a disadvantage because he is wasting 1 ability slot and 1 gcd for something that potions could've provided for him.

MashmalloMan · August 2022

xaraan wrote: »

Everyone has access to potions. The gap there isn't due to potions, it's due to knowledge, which is what most of the complaints/suggestions have often been about when talking about closing the gap. Teaching players better in the game.

How much hand holding needs to be done at this point? When was the last time you didn't press "skip skip skip" on a tutorial for a game?

They give a ton of help within the leveling process, you don't just get items for leveling, it comes with a big pop up stating how those items are beneficial to a build in ESO. I know they give food at one point and say to use it. I'm sure they give pots and tell people to use them too. They also slowly feed it to you over the 50 levels, it's virtually unskippable because you want the items and the skill points they give.

In my opinion, ZOS has done their job when it comes to that pretty well. I hear this statement all the time, but no one actually provides a solution. I'm not pretending to have one, but saying "teach players more" isn't very helpful and won't increase the floor for players that already exist.

There are some people with high cp, so they've been here a long time, and still don't understand basic mechanics or doing viable DPS. Making a better tutorial isn't going to do anything for them.

Some people are beyond help at this point to put it bluntly.

I think OP raises a good point even if I don't agree with their suggestions because it seems to kill some build variety present in the game. There is a lot of power behind things that feel gated to newer players. You can just look at ZOS's attempt at fixing this with the new Empower change and how Oakensoul functions. It provides potion buffs, trial gear buffs, some buffs from group play and some from unique sources like poisons. All the while reducing the need for complex rotations using 1 bar.

Thats about as good as it gets.

DrSlaughtr · August 2022

At a certain point players need to take responsibility for their own ignorance. I don't mean that as an insult. Every player of every game ever made started off with a lack of knowledge.

Yes this game could go a lot more in explaining things but to be honest, if you compare it to the popular fps PVP games, they drop you in the deep in as well. Actually even more so.

People have to be willing to learn. There are players who don't want to. You can't base the game around them because then everything is meaningless and there is no progression.

There are so many third party resources available for this game. Between player run websites and instructional videos, the knowledge is there. People have to want to listen.

Stx · August 2022

I have always hated potions being used on cooldown for buffs in this game. Potions should be used when you need to restore resources, or other utility effects... speed, cc immunity, detection, etc.

They could remove buffs from potions and still keep them interesting.

(This is one more reason to increase buffs from skills to 1 minute!)

Jazraena · August 2022

I dare say there's also a hefty part of the player base that knowingly doesn't use potions because they're comparably high maintenance and they may not be willing to adjust build / potions with varying content. I certainly don't use crafted potions myself most of the time, simply because I'm doing more randoms than anything else, and the crown potions are more valuable as an emergency button for me there.

I'd switch depending on content I do myself, but many may well not.

WrathOfInnos · August 2022

I think the state of Major Prophecy and Savagery is ok. The buffs to Camo Hunter make it worth slotting on many builds, or Inner Light is a good option for some. The players that don't want to use potions can generally spare one bar slot for this. Maybe give some more options, such as the way Flames of Oblivion provides the buff passively and Green Lotus gives it while active.

Major Sorcery and Brutality could benefit from some improvements. IMO the easiest way is to make active buffs last longer. Crit Surge for example should last 60s, and Warden's Netch. Sap Essence should give the buff even if no enemy is hit, and needs to have it's buff duration extended as well. Igneous and Molten Weapons should both have 60s duration. And for classes without easy access to the buff, it should be added to Channeled Acceleration for 60s.

This is truly a way to raise the floor without affecting the ceiling.

Ranger209 · August 2022

The biggest thing I found with potions when I was starting out and trying to crack 30k on the 3 million dummy was the resource potions. I was always running out of resources, but I was broke and potions were spendy so I fought it. When I finally broke down and started using them they, in and of themselves, were the biggest contributor to getting from 15k dps to 30k.

MashmalloMan · August 2022

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think the state of Major Prophecy and Savagery is ok. The buffs to Camo Hunter make it worth slotting on many builds, or Inner Light is a good option for some. The players that don't want to use potions can generally spare one bar slot for this. Maybe give some more options, such as the way Flames of Oblivion provides the buff passively and Green Lotus gives it while active.

Major Sorcery and Brutality could benefit from some improvements. IMO the easiest way is to make active buffs last longer. Crit Surge for example should last 60s, and Warden's Netch. Sap Essence should give the buff even if no enemy is hit, and needs to have it's buff duration extended as well. Igneous and Molten Weapons should both have 60s duration. And for classes without easy access to the buff, it should be added to Channeled Acceleration for 60s.

This is truly a way to raise the floor without affecting the ceiling.

Facts. This is exactly what I suggested in my Sorc thread and what's being mentioned in the duration thread. 60s minimum should be applicable to self buffs for Major Armor, Damage and Crit options.

Edit: Also skills like Bound Armaments or Grim Focus.

FoO giving crit actively instead of passively would be huge.

What about Warden's Wing's giving Minor Berserk/Evasion for double the duration actively instead of passively. This whole passive slotting thing can be a bad thing sometimes.

We don't need to combine buffs on 1 skill, but they should be WAY easier to manage than 20-30s durations. Buff management is the number 1 cause of obesity in... wait sorry.. Buff management is the number 1 cause of frustration and failure for lower skill cap players. A lot of people entering PVP need to learn to keep up their defense 100% of the time or they will die.

xaraan · August 2022

MashmalloMan wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Everyone has access to potions. The gap there isn't due to potions, it's due to knowledge, which is what most of the complaints/suggestions have often been about when talking about closing the gap. Teaching players better in the game.

How much hand holding needs to be done at this point? When was the last time you didn't press "skip skip skip" on a tutorial for a game?

They give a ton of help within the leveling process, you don't just get items for leveling, it comes with a big pop up stating how those items are beneficial to a build in ESO. I know they give food at one point and say to use it. I'm sure they give pots and tell people to use them too. They also slowly feed it to you over the 50 levels, it's virtually unskippable because you want the items and the skill points they give.

In my opinion, ZOS has done their job when it comes to that pretty well. I hear this statement all the time, but no one actually provides a solution. I'm not pretending to have one, but saying "teach players more" isn't very helpful and won't increase the floor for players that already exist.

There are some people with high cp, so they've been here a long time, and still don't understand basic mechanics or doing viable DPS. Making a better tutorial isn't going to do anything for them.

Some people are beyond help at this point to put it bluntly.

I think OP raises a good point even if I don't agree with their suggestions because it seems to kill some build variety present in the game. There is a lot of power behind things that feel gated to newer players. You can just look at ZOS's attempt at fixing this with the new Empower change and how Oakensoul functions. It provides potion buffs, trial gear buffs, some buffs from group play and some from unique sources like poisons. All the while reducing the need for complex rotations using 1 bar.

Thats about as good as it gets.

A flawed question to ask someone about skipping a tutorial that knows how to play the game and already understood a good bit. But excluding the stuff I knew: If I don't know how to do something, then sure, I'd watch a tutorial ... assuming it adequately explained it.

Frankly, the ones in the game are very very basic and really don't get into explaining much about truly playing the game. There have been a million ideas floated already about various training tutorials that could be added to the game. Especially more focused, optional NPCs that you can go to to learn specific things instead of just having a bunch of info dumped in your lap all at once. One big issue is sometimes just going through the steps with someone on fifty different things when they make their character isn't really going to sink it, which is why I like the idea of training NPCs that you can go to for further education on something (weaving, interupts, buffs, whatever) when you are ready to focus on that - players are much more likely to learn.

If players choose to ignore it, it's on them. Giving them freebies to make up for their own lack of education about the game isn't what's best. And there is no power gating for new players potion wise.

I'm not saying I'm against something like making sure everyone has access to a class skill that grants common buffs (that would be uniform since many classes already can), but just tacking it onto stuff like trash pots is a "gimme gimme".

MashmalloMan · August 2022

xaraan wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Everyone has access to potions. The gap there isn't due to potions, it's due to knowledge, which is what most of the complaints/suggestions have often been about when talking about closing the gap. Teaching players better in the game.

How much hand holding needs to be done at this point? When was the last time you didn't press "skip skip skip" on a tutorial for a game?

They give a ton of help within the leveling process, you don't just get items for leveling, it comes with a big pop up stating how those items are beneficial to a build in ESO. I know they give food at one point and say to use it. I'm sure they give pots and tell people to use them too. They also slowly feed it to you over the 50 levels, it's virtually unskippable because you want the items and the skill points they give.

In my opinion, ZOS has done their job when it comes to that pretty well. I hear this statement all the time, but no one actually provides a solution. I'm not pretending to have one, but saying "teach players more" isn't very helpful and won't increase the floor for players that already exist.

There are some people with high cp, so they've been here a long time, and still don't understand basic mechanics or doing viable DPS. Making a better tutorial isn't going to do anything for them.

Some people are beyond help at this point to put it bluntly.

I think OP raises a good point even if I don't agree with their suggestions because it seems to kill some build variety present in the game. There is a lot of power behind things that feel gated to newer players. You can just look at ZOS's attempt at fixing this with the new Empower change and how Oakensoul functions. It provides potion buffs, trial gear buffs, some buffs from group play and some from unique sources like poisons. All the while reducing the need for complex rotations using 1 bar.

Thats about as good as it gets.

A flawed question to ask someone about skipping a tutorial that knows how to play the game and already understood a good bit. But excluding the stuff I knew: If I don't know how to do something, then sure, I'd watch a tutorial ... assuming it adequately explained it.

Frankly, the ones in the game are very very basic and really don't get into explaining much about truly playing the game. There have been a million ideas floated already about various training tutorials that could be added to the game. Especially more focused, optional NPCs that you can go to to learn specific things instead of just having a bunch of info dumped in your lap all at once. One big issue is sometimes just going through the steps with someone on fifty different things when they make their character isn't really going to sink it, which is why I like the idea of training NPCs that you can go to for further education on something (weaving, interupts, buffs, whatever) when you are ready to focus on that - players are much more likely to learn.

If players choose to ignore it, it's on them. Giving them freebies to make up for their own lack of education about the game isn't what's best. And there is no power gating for new players potion wise.

I'm not saying I'm against something like making sure everyone has access to a class skill that grants common buffs (that would be uniform since many classes already can), but just tacking it onto stuff like trash pots is a "gimme gimme".

Okay, now that is an excellent idea, thank you for sharing. I've played other MMO's that do that specific thing and they even allow you to revisit those NPC's if you want to for whatever reason later.

Another thing, this game doesn't have job advancements that give you new skills or augments, but I played a few games that did where when you went to complete the quest, they gave you the skills you'd later be unlocking so that you could test them and figure out how they work together.

Actually, as I type this, just realized ZOS made a pretty good tutorial in that context for Vampirism... they really need to find a way to apply that logic to other portions of the game.

Imagine at the start of a new character, you get to choose a class AFTER you create the look of your character. You enter the tutorial area and are given the class choices with a more detailed description of their defining characteristics and passives from NPC's that represent those classes... instead of some vague blurb about what the power fantasy of the class is suppose to be. Maybe go 1 step further, ask the player if they want to be a Stam DD, Mag DD, Healer or Tank, then task the player to complete some tasks with the most popular skills from a given class on their bar like Vampirism, just so they can feel what a class really plays like.

Like for Mag DD Sorc, I'd put Tormentor, Crit Surge, Streak, Crystal Frag and Daedric Prey. Don't overwhelm them with 2 bars, but give them enough to understand what a class represents with their most popular skills.

Rado98 · August 2022

Making them cheaper by increasing the number of potions made with the alchemy passive would go a long way.

Personally I avoid using spell/weapon power pots as much a possible. I don't have the time to farm/do lots of money making activities to have enough gold to support a potion addiction.

Any player with a lower amount of gold would probably avoid them too.

boi_anachronism_ · August 2022

Anyone can craft at any level. Jeez that's not a level thing you can get to lvl 50 alchemy at lvl 10 if you want.

Sluggy · August 2022

They literally already have an item that gives almost every important buff you could need. And if things stay the way they are on the PTS as of week 4, it's literally just two skills and a channeled heavy attack to get 90k dps on a trial dummy. I don't think they could lower the gap any more at this point. Mission accomplished. Hurray. *Slow clap*

Soarora · August 2022

I don't think this is the case. I actually stopped using expensive potions because I realized I already have both buffs on my bars. Sure, one could replace those buff spots with different abilities but how much of an important difference would it really make?

Rimskjegg · August 2022

I agree with everyone saying just give longer durations to Major Sorcery/Brutality buffs from skills. And if you remember, the Combat Preview promised exactly that, longer buff durations, but we've seen precious few examples of that. Were there so many changes there even the devs were too swamped to remember to implement them all? Were they scrapped because if we got another spammable in every 30 seconds it wouldn't lower our DPS quite as much? Anyone's guess.

Remathilis · August 2022

Rimskjegg wrote: »

I agree with everyone saying just give longer durations to Major Sorcery/Brutality buffs from skills. And if you remember, the Combat Preview promised exactly that, longer buff durations, but we've seen precious few examples of that. Were there so many changes there even the devs were too swamped to remember to implement them all? Were they scrapped because if we got another spammable in every 30 seconds it wouldn't lower our DPS quite as much? Anyone's guess.

Truth. I'd care less about my 10/15/20 dots if I don't have to fit in 6/12/27 buffs in their too. The biggest selling point of Oakensoul was not worrying about reapplying buffs and chugging potions.

Ksariyu · August 2022

Personally, I'd say potions should just be reworked to not be another mid-duration buff like everything else. Potions in every game are used for resource management and/or engagement buffs. Like several other things with ESO's combat, they decided to make the optimal-use of potions go against the intuitive design that most players are going to be used to coming into the game. I can't think of any other game where potions are just another "use on cooldown" effect, which is both boring and adds (minimally) to the difficulty of rotations.

I'd also argue against increasing buff uptimes. If a skill truly needs to have a 100% uptime, just make it a passive. We only have ten slots here, so there's very little reason to further mitigate their value by reducing them to essentially clunkier passive effects (See Inner Light, Expert Hunter, FoO, etc.). Action games with legit action combat never expect the players to have 100% uptime on an active effect. It's on the player to know when it's important to have that effect active and on their opponent to predict or react to effects.

francesinhalover · August 2022

I wish i could use potions, especially mag ones, but they are so so sooo expensive.

The ap ones are less expensive, but still expensive.

It's like every time i need to do a trial i go more and more poor to the point where after failing vmol 7x i just stoped using potions for the remaining 50 times i failed it.

some classes are lucky and have access to potion buffs, other's no.

Luke_Flamesword · August 2022

I agree, personally I hate potions micromanagment so for most of time I use crown potions as help when I'm low with resources and that's it. I have bunch of "meta potions" for higher difficulty content but for most of time I forget to use them

I can imagine that really a lot of players don't use them because don't know it's important or they just don't care enough. It's just bad design and it's not fun to use them all the time, when you think how big gold sink it is for you.

Reworking that area should be one of first steps to close the gap...

boi_anachronism_ · August 2022

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

I agree, personally I hate potions micromanagment so for most of time I use crown potions as help when I'm low with resources and that's it. I have bunch of "meta potions" for higher difficulty content but for most of time I forget to use them

I can imagine that really a lot of players don't use them because don't know it's important or they just don't care enough. It's just bad design and it's not fun to use them all the time, when you think how big gold sink it is for you.

Reworking that area should be one of first steps to close the gap...

Leveling alchemy is easy and cheap, probably the easiest skill to level. With passives you can make 4 per. 50 of each item is 200 pots. I haven't spent more then 5k to make pots and that's if I was too lazy to farm for mats. On top of that if you have the alchemy helper they send you mats every 12hrs. I really do not understand this issue.

Ishtarknows · August 2022

Iron_Warrior wrote: »

Potions are one of the biggest factors to improve your dps. A lot of people in PUG groups don't even use them or simply use trash potions that they find in overland. In eso unlike other games potions are not just for emergency use, you have to use them on cooldown to keep up their buffs, so you spend your potions pretty quickly and have to spend a lot of gold or farm for materials to be able to get them, and for that reason a lot of people don't bother with them and use trash potions and lose a lot of dps. So if you want to make the game more accessible for these people you have to do something about potions and the buffs that they provide. I have 2 suggestions

1- add major savagery/prophecy to all abilities that give you major brutality/sorcery. This way people that are using trash pots are still at a disadvantage because they need to sacrifice a slot for an ability that gives them these buffs, but they wouldn't fall behind that much

2- make the bosses drop high quality potions. I think crafters would hate this but this is another way to do it

This is just going to make things worse.

As others have said, the gap is more about knowledge than anything else. Never using potions but suddenly having buffs added which increase your output without even knowing why makes the skill (knowledge) gap even wider.

BronzeCaiman · August 2022

They could also start giving out the crown store versions of DPS oriented potions in daily rewards, how many people actually need all the Tri potions they give out.

Amottica · August 2022

Potions are not the problem with the gap between high and low damage in ESO. The suggestion would even begin to solve the issue. Adding those buffs to someone who struggles to do 20k DPS will not magically have them doing 80k DPS.

Iron_Warrior · August 2022

There are multiple comments about this change not closing the gap. I've already explained it to another person but i'm just going to explain it again.

A lot of people here say they hate sweeping changes that turns the game upside down. So let's suggest small changes. If you expect the gap to get completely closed in a single patch, then you are asking for sweeping changes. Making potions or their buffs more accessible is a small steps. "Small steps" are what this game needs.

Potions ARE important for your performance, saying they don't is just a lie. In my eyes there are three factors for the solo difference of 1 low end and 1 high end player. 1-consumables 2- gear 3- knowledge. Knowledge is the biggest part nobody is denying that. Gear is an one time farm so that's fair. But consumables is something that you have to afford. Foods are already pretty accessible with their long duration. So we are left with potions that you have to use on cooldown, and they are not really affordable for a lot of people, you can even see a few people in this thread that are having problems. So these potions or the buffs that they provide should become more accesible if we want to take step towards closing the gap. There are multiple suggestions for it, bosses droping high quality potions or buffing chemistry passive so you can make more extra pots or make the buffs that they provide more accessible. New players should be able to stop worrying about the consumables part that much and move on to the knowledge part

Jeezye · August 2022

TBH there was a time that potions grated a unique restore buff that grated X magicka over Y seconds. You still had to source your major buffs from other skills.

I always found it super dumb to simply provide such hugley powerful buffs to something as (un)accessible as potions. Green dragon blood back then was actually super strong on stamDKs because they got access to major endurance and fortitude.

Major buffs back then were hard to come by and provided lots of impact on builds, now they just come for free. Well, at the cost of farm time and gold - forcing users to spend time in the game to do other content.

Guess that's where the decision came from...

Quethrosar · August 2022

you all seem to overlook something important.
We can't make potions that heal AND do spell damage increase.
I need the potions for self healing so i can't get rid of things like surge and inner light.
so i use essence of health with magica regen.
Very often i am only allive because of a potion healing me.

Dawnblade · August 2022

Potions are not THE reason for the gap, but they do contribute.

Buffs, in general, are too prevalent and too powerful, though not always accessible, straightforward, or manageable for newer / casual players to understand, acquire, and use.

Unless and until there are changes to address the number and potency of available buffs, their stacking nature along with their sources and buff management, the floor and ceiling will always be far apart.

There should be buffs that can be used to improve performance, and there should be an overlay for skill that allows better players to perform higher still, but the difference between a player stacking all the buffs (including all the passive buffs) and a player getting a few here and there is too large and shows a game with poor design.