Warden Changes Week 4 - Scorch and Cutting Dive, and a changing Warden.

ESO_Nightingale · August 2022

I'll try to keep this post as short as possible and to the point but unfortunately it's going to be another long one and i'll include TL:DRs for the long sections, but it'll be long because i need to explain my reasoning. i thought nothing would change originally given what happened last patch and so i was ready to make 1 post and then move on when nothing changed. but it did and this is a really important time to give feedback. I'll cover the changes for this week and what me and other wardens think, but then i really want to talk about what warden players have been echoing for a while now as well as going into class design. this post is once again intended for the developers @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler and i'll also add you as well. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Scorch

I tested this for about 40 minutes this morning, i think for pve encounters, the scorch change is fine, however subterranean assault doesn't feel all that impactful. the killer though is PvP encounters. the design just does not feel good there.

I'll address the developer comment. I think that these are incredibly important because it gives a lot of insight into why changes are made. so thanks for including one.

The changes to Scorch and their morphs were done in attempts to try and help the class feel less intensely focused on buff management and allow for other actions in combat.

"Less intensely focused on buff management" has been a big theme of this update, and i understand it's inclusion. it does significantly reduce the fast paced management style of the class which i know a lot of people weren't a fan of, but i've gotten used to it.

While still trying to retain their burst-oriented nature, to a more balanced degree when comparing them to other burst skills and taking their total time before impact better into account.

The problem with this is that scorch is warden's only delayed burst skill. classes like sorcerer. and skills like haunting curse which seem to be the comparison that's being made with are different in a couple of ways compared to warden. Scorch's nature as an area of effect skill means it's power is significantly impaired by major evasion, it's also counterable in ways that curse isn't. they're both blockable, however, scorch has to be aimed at a target which means line of sight, movement and cc effects can cause it to not even hit at all, on top of being the only burst skill we have. if it doesn't hit, this means that our burst window has entirely failed. these are 2 different classes. a 6 second window after the first tick to use other skills is fine in pve, but in pvp you have nothing else to use that's delayed. you really need to be able to hit the second tick as well, because it is where most of your kill potential is because the initial tick hits so much lower than it did on live.

The original PTS iteration was ultimately too disruptive to those who are familiar with the class, as it threw off the timing of the skill by a second, so we have brought it down back to the original duration while also keeping its overall timer divisible by 3s to help ensure a rhythm is felt with the class.

This is great, thank you for listening to us on this point and reverting it back to the 3 second increments.

By separating the damage, we can also better allow the skill to function as a burst skill or a sustained DPS skill, where recasting it earlier will result in more total DPS, whereas waiting for the bigger explosion will result in those dopamine printing burst combos.

I understand the idea behind this change, however, there's some massive issues with this design being implemented.

1: the lower initial damage feels awful. this does nearly 25% less damage than it currently does on live, where as our second hit hits 12% more than it does on live. this just does not mesh well with our kit and playstyle because other than spammables, we have no other big burst damage skill to combine this with, it mostly feels random and like an unnecessary delay in damage. The damage difference between ticks on deep fissure really should just be reverted entirely with both skills going back to either live values or the week 1 8% reduced values.
2: subterranean assault needs to gain this huge damage loss back. if both morphs want to be used, there has to be more balance between both of them. this seems like it'll be insanely difficult to achieve, but as long as subterranean assault isn't gaining 10% damage done from piercing cold, it's going to be significantly harder. this isn't a request to get deep fissure nerfed by 10%, not at all. this is a plea to have a significant look at warden's overall kit and go with a unified vision. i'll elaborate on what we've been collectively asking for as a community after i talk about cutting dive. however, for now, if the damage loss is reverted, this should be serviceable enough until looked at later.

TL:DR for Scorch:
After a lot of discussion this morning the frost discord really has had a pretty unanimous opinion. We appreciate the reversion to the 3 second intervals but the damage loss on the initial tick to gain it back on the 2nd for higher burst is completely unnecessary and it feels really bad. it'll be noticed in pvp environments.

Cutting Dive

This is a lot better than the change from week 1, it fits well into the idea of the bleeden archetype, as well as not being overly convoluted. from testing it can also be used as both a secondary off-stat spammable and a DoT for magicka builds too which gives it a pretty nice role.

A Changing Warden: Identity Crisis

Wardens have been steadily growing more and more vocal for the past few years about the design of our class. And I'm sure that you, as developers have noticed our increasing voice. I'm glad that it's not just me anymore. Over the years, our class's design from a damage dealer's point of view has changed significantly. key skills like scorch and dive have gone through a couple of iterations and our "unique" elemental class aspects have grown stronger. This is what I really want to talk about. Because of the introduction of bleed damage as it's own damage type and it's implementation onto growing swarm and dive, and now wild guardian, stamina warden has begun to thematically stand out as the bleed class. that is it's class identity. Magicka Warden on the other hand has received the implementation of glacial presence's crit damage buff, as well as arctic blast finally becoming a legitimate skill for damage this patch. it's been significantly helped by indirect buffs like minor brittle, frostbite and frost reach as a spammable.

What were once niche builds have become exceedingly popular in our class. With every patch the frost discord grows with more people talking about making frost damage dealer builds. This is wonderful. we have come so far from where we once were years ago. This is what we want our class specialization to be and it is what really helps to differentiate it from other classes themes. However, they just aren't quite there yet. some older designs of the class are in the way of achieving this. There is no passive on our class that actually interacts with stamina warden's bleed builds, while at the same time, there are still very few frost damage skills in the class. Dragonknight shows that a design of flame damage for magicka and poison damage for stamina works. it's definitely not perfect ever since hybridization, but there feels like a solid enough line between stamina morphs having mostly poison damage (because stone giant had to ruin this) and magicka morphs having flame damage which works with their ardent flame passive effects, many of us feel that on warden, this idea should be followed. Magic damage having representation on our kit is now outdated. Frost Damage works far better with magicka warden's natural chilled application bonuses and the damage type isn't heavily reused on other classes like Magic is. it's what differentiates warden from other classes. as for lore reasoning and justification, wardens use frost magic, so they should be able to infuse their storytelling magic creations with it. necromancer already summons a giant frostbitten colossus with no backstory and sorcerer's pets deal shock damage when scamps you encounter always do fire damage, there's already many examples of damage types not following the norm or what is to be expected.

Class identity is incredibly important, and moving forward in future patches, i think there should be emphasis put into making each class feel unique. one way of doing this is to cut back on the amount of magic damage that has been spread into classes and to move into more unified damage types with supporting effects for certain specs. this means for sorcerers, gaining more shock damage on their skills like crystal shard and daedric curse and some additional bonuses based around that.

Going back to what i said before about scorch, it's going to be very hard to achieve legitimate balance between both morphs of scorch when 1 gains major and minor breach as well as benefitting from a +10% passive damage boost from it's own passives. both skills at base aren't incredibly unique either. it may be better to rework morph effects to each have a different focus and shift major breach to base.

There is no way that this can be done in a single week as this involves several overarching changes to warden. so instead, i think a damage per tick reversion back to week 1's values should be implemented for now and deep fissure's tick's damage difference removed before patch 35 launches. changing all, or most of warden's damage skills to frost and bleed damage can be rolled out over several patches if needed.

TL:DR for A Changing Warden:
The class needs to have certain aspects of it's kit redesigned around the theme of bleeds for stamina wardens and frost for magicka wardens. this involves changing all stamina costing damage skills to bleed damage, and all magicka costing damage skills, to frost damage, and adding bleed based bonuses to existing skills. the class is currently in a transitionary state between it's old and newer designs, so it's in a very awkward place at the moment.

MindOfTheSwarm · August 2022

I actually like how Frost and Magic is distinct. That being said, most Wardens want Animal Skills to be Frost so I’ll concede and support the change. With this change though they will need to modify the Winter’s Embrace passive that buffs Magic Damage and change it to Bleed.

I am personally more bothered about the Destro Staff being split up into separate elemental skill lines and maybe throw in an Arcane Staff as well for Magic Damage builds to thrive.

Klingenlied · August 2022

Warden all about bleed, frost and some heals? Well, fine with me.

But seriously? I really, really would love for Wardens to be strong in "real content" soon. The time we are bottom tier in PvP now not only feels like, but pretty much is a eternity by now. We could always parse decently, but I NEVER can translate parsing into PvE performance. And whenever I do Dungeon HM challenges (Corael Aerie final boss without buffs is a perfect example) it is so incredibly easy to see just where the Warden does lack even besides his class individualization: Warden is hard to play in movement heavy encounters, hard to attain 100% uptime on scorch hits, bear as a melee pet will always loose uptime when you needa refocus dps. If you directly compare to Necro, Warden is definitely the inferior class by a noticeable margin.

The currently planned iterations won't help with this but still generally make the situation slightly worse in PvE, though we might start to see better survival in PvP thanks to all the change.

Mr_Stach · August 2022

So really quick I want take us back to Murkmire, Zos Setout some goals to make Warden "better"

When this first happened I was excited, for a long time I wanted Northern Storm to be a nice Comparable Ultimate to the Bear and this was the Change we got:

Then in Scalebreaker, Advanced Species was reverted back to 2% but that loss of power never really shifted to anywhere else.

Northern Storm is Understandably a difficult ability to buff too much without it having a lot of consequences for PvP, but I really think we need to inject life back into it as a DPS Option for Warden.

Currently as it stands as Compared to DKs Standard of Might

Just by increasing the duration to 15s we get a lot closer to that value, but I also know that a 15s Northern Storm would be terrifying in PvP, which is why we would need to remove the Major Protection to make it more DPS Focused by Adding Major Brittle or something

But there's your trip down memory lane, let's hope we don't end up repeating ourselves again.

ESO_Nightingale · August 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So really quick I want take us back to Murkmire, Zos Setout some goals to make Warden "better"

When this first happened I was excited, for a long time I wanted Northern Storm to be a nice Comparable Ultimate to the Bear and this was the Change we got:

Then in Scalebreaker, Advanced Species was reverted back to 2% but that loss of power never really shifted to anywhere else.

Northern Storm is Understandably a difficult ability to buff too much without it having a lot of consequences for PvP, but I really think we need to inject life back into it as a DPS Option for Warden.

Currently as it stands as Compared to DKs Standard of Might

Just by increasing the duration to 15s we get a lot closer to that value, but I also know that a 15s Northern Storm would be terrifying in PvP, which is why we would need to remove the Major Protection to make it more DPS Focused by Adding Major Brittle or something

But there's your trip down memory lane, let's hope we don't end up repeating ourselves again.

we don't know what zos's vision for warden is. we just don't. so by so many of us, and i stress this (because it's definitely not just me) collectively telling them that we really really want more representation of bleed and frost, they can maybe slowly work towards it patch by patch. there's no way in hell they'll get it done in one more week, even for 1 skill, but maybe in the future.

Mr_Stach · August 2022

Back when Wrobel was here, he talked a lot about this Idea with Warden being focused on Growth, hence the huge focus on delayed skills, this wait for a big payoff, which we see with Scorch, Budding Seeds, and birds.

The Issue with this gameplay is it's easily circumvented, you can easily dodge birds and scorch. We're now entering this point in time where not only is the growth portion working against us, but the Payoff is being reduced both by damage nerfs but also by things like Major Evasion reducing the damage of Scorch by 20%.

So there are a few things we need to make sure happens, Spammable attacks shouldn't really be delayed, it makes them feel very clunky, instead speed up the animation.

Scorch and Morphs is the ONLY Aimed Burst Attack in the Game, no other class needs to worry or maybe appreciates how difficult it can be to land this ability around terrain, buildings, LOS, while being Kited and Kiting.

Now I don't now about you but Scorch is probably the most telegraphed burst skill in the game. Juking people out for a 22% weaker "burst" doesn't feel impactful. Let our Delayed Burst...... Burst.

Next week we have supposedly more changes and I CANNOT stress this enough:

Revert Advanced Species Back to being a Damage Boost for ALL playstyles
Introduce Frost Damage into Animal Companion Magicka Morphs to make room for Bleed Passives, Warden does not have room to Focus on Frost Damage, Bleed Damage, and Magic Damage, we need to simplify to grow.
Look at underutilized Passives and Skills, Icy Aura needs to be reworked. Frozen Gate, Bursting Vines, Sleet Storm & Morphs.

Mr_Stach · August 2022

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So really quick I want take us back to Murkmire, Zos Setout some goals to make Warden "better"

When this first happened I was excited, for a long time I wanted Northern Storm to be a nice Comparable Ultimate to the Bear and this was the Change we got:

Then in Scalebreaker, Advanced Species was reverted back to 2% but that loss of power never really shifted to anywhere else.

Northern Storm is Understandably a difficult ability to buff too much without it having a lot of consequences for PvP, but I really think we need to inject life back into it as a DPS Option for Warden.

Currently as it stands as Compared to DKs Standard of Might

Just by increasing the duration to 15s we get a lot closer to that value, but I also know that a 15s Northern Storm would be terrifying in PvP, which is why we would need to remove the Major Protection to make it more DPS Focused by Adding Major Brittle or something

But there's your trip down memory lane, let's hope we don't end up repeating ourselves again.

we don't know what zos's vision for warden is. we just don't. so by so many of us, and i stress this (because it's definitely not just me) collectively telling them that we really really want more representation of bleed and frost, they can maybe slowly work towards it patch by patch. there's no way in hell they'll get it done in one more week, even for 1 skill, but maybe in the future.

Really we can only know what they share with us and I don't think we'll get many peeks behind the curtain

Feedback and what we want Ideally is the best we can do, I think this PTS is another one where people just aren't satisfied with the "Trust Us" Moniker. I think more and more people are accepting of "our vision" of a Better Warden, because what is being presented is just all over the place, there really hasn't been much pushback on it, because what is available isn't working.

TheGreatBlackBear · August 2022

I remember that bear nerf in Murkmire. It was hilarious. They basically said " yo you're using the bear a lot and we don't want you to feel like you're forced to do that. So we'll nerf the damage the bear does so you don't feel bad about using something else. But tough luck if you do like using the bear." KEKW. It's between that and the comment about DKs are meant to struggle with sustain for funniest dev insight.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So really quick I want take us back to Murkmire, Zos Setout some goals to make Warden "better"

When this first happened I was excited, for a long time I wanted Northern Storm to be a nice Comparable Ultimate to the Bear and this was the Change we got:

Then in Scalebreaker, Advanced Species was reverted back to 2% but that loss of power never really shifted to anywhere else.

Northern Storm is Understandably a difficult ability to buff too much without it having a lot of consequences for PvP, but I really think we need to inject life back into it as a DPS Option for Warden.

Currently as it stands as Compared to DKs Standard of Might

Just by increasing the duration to 15s we get a lot closer to that value, but I also know that a 15s Northern Storm would be terrifying in PvP, which is why we would need to remove the Major Protection to make it more DPS Focused by Adding Major Brittle or something

But there's your trip down memory lane, let's hope we don't end up repeating ourselves again.

Aldoss · August 2022

I want to be as calm as possible when writing posts like this, but I'm just really getting overwhelmed at how crazy these ideas are and how they're ever making their way out of the brainstorming sessions I assume ZOS has before implementing PTS changes.

The Dev Comments

While I'm thankful for the inclusion of these comments, the statements made within them are becoming increasingly insulting.

Warden is a "burst class" only because Wrobel said it was. That doesn't make us a burst class. Plars, Magdks, Sorcs, and Nightblades are burst classes by any definition. We all have access to delayed burst.

Dive is not delayed burst. It's just bad.

Scorch is the definition of delayed burst, but it's no different from every other class' delayed burst tool.

The developer comments are really important opportunities for us wardens to actually understand how ZOS sees us, and unfortunately, the recent comments have proven to us that no one at ZOS knows what a warden is, let alone what it needs to stop being the worst PvP DD in the game.

Delayed Burst

While I'm appreciate that scorch was looked at this week, the idea implemented is just absolutely poorly thought out. It's an idea that makes you go "oh man, what if we did this... " and it sounds so cool, but then you step back and think about all angles and perspectives and realize that it can never work, and then you scrap the idea.

How did it ever make it out of the brainstorming session that warden's burst should be locked behind a 9 second window?! If the ability were targetable, and only guaranteed if not purged, then you might have something there.

As is, this is an awful burden to put onto the already worst performing PvP DD in the game. Aiming any shalk hit is a challenge, but forcing us to now operate on the single longest delayed burst window in the game for a payout that barely competes with Purifying Light, Molten Whip, Haunting Curse, or Assassin's Will is disappointing, to say it as politely as I can.

As a NB, nothing is more infuriating than watching your target roll dodge that bow proc, but as infuriating as that is, it's a scenario that can be planned around, and still does absurd amounts of damage for the time cost that goes into it.

Watching my 9sec shalk miss is now the most devastating experience of any class. Watching it hit feels like winning the jackpot on a scratch off, but only to learn that the jackpot winnings is $20. The damage just isn't there.

This skill needs a complete rework, and that's unfortunately not possible now that you have no time to properly implement it. Give us the Falcon's Swiftness and Arctic change, do what you're intent on doing with ground and sticky dots, perpetuate the status quo of magden being bottom tier in PvP for yet another 3 month cycle, and call it a day.

I frankly have no interest in relearning this skill when it still means that magden is bottom tier. Go back to the drawing board. I'll go play some other games while you figure this out. From my discussions with other magdens, I'm not alone in this thinking.

Nightingale's Propositions

These are level headed, well thought out changes that should have been implemented years ago. It has continuously made 0 sense that stamdens gain no benefit from their skill morphs from class passives. It makes 0 sense that the "Masters of ice" have barely any frost damage skills.

Warden is a frost caster/bleed bruiser. That identity gives the class purpose and uniformity moving forward to better help balance its skills.

Scorch

Deep Fissure needs to deal ice damage and Sub Assault needs to deal bleed. This has to be done.

Major Breach has to be removed from DF and needs to be added to the base skill. There's no reason for it to exist on the one that already does more damage because it is the "chosen one" by our passives while the other isn't. Put Major Breach on the base and give DF the Minor buff. Stamdens can already rely on sundered to give them decent uptime on Minor.

Deep Fissure 100% CAN NOT become a 9 second burst window without being altered to become essentially the most overpowered, juiced skill in the game.

ZOS says they want numbers, not anecdotes. Here you go:

Assassin's Will has a power/sec of 1585.2, making it the single most hard hitting skill in the game that isn't an ultimate. It takes 5 seconds to charge, but can be withheld and used "at will" by the caster for when that player decides to expel it.

If you want to talk about DF being standardized against Haunting Curse, there you go. Haunting Curse now has a power/sec value TWICE that of the 9 second DF hit AND IT CANNOT MISS. Technically this also hits multiple targets, but I'm considering the application of the skill and not the bonus damage that the skill provides as its special characteristic.

I just honestly don't understand what's happening at ZOS HQ anymore. Everyone is saying that they're guilty of balancing these skills based on a spreadsheet. So I just quantified them in a spreadsheet and I'm left totally lost at how anyone could look at this and say "yeah, that'll totally solve the warden problem!".

We need a miracle next Monday and I have no faith that we'll get it. Magden will remain as the meme that it is for yet another 3 month cycle.

EDIT - I guess I should give a proposal...

Revert DF back to 3 seconds and drop its power budget back to the same value that Haunting Curse has, 4906. That gives us a power/sec that puts it at the top of the charts for power/sec (1635.3), but is balanced around all the drawbacks that the skill currently suffers from (Major Evasion, missing, locked in timer).

Magdens are already used to casting this skill every 3 seconds. Why change it? We like this play style. Don't change it, just make it worth the struggle to actually make it land.

This change does not make magden okay. We are still far from okay, but this PTS patch has done something so defeating that no one in their right mind will ever consider playing magden DD again. You are killing this class. Please stop.

Urzigurumash · August 2022

@Aldoss

Again you're focusing on these Single Target skills and paying no attention to whether Shalks can be adjusted to give Warden some of the power that Necro finds in the combination of Blastbones, Avid Boneyard, and Colossus. Avid Boneyard is limited by the global synergy cooldown which is much longer than 9 seconds.

AoEs have more potential than Single Target skills.

Deep Fissure alone will never make MagDen a competitive duelist and it shouldn't.

Your comparison of Deep Fissure to these Single Target skills is, like I said before, probably being made because Deep Fissure is Warden's only real Direct Damage skill in PvP. So if you want to talk about how MagDen lacks what Plar, NB, and DK have in terms of Single Target burst, Deep Fissure should not be the object of your attention.

Warden doesn't necessarily need a Class Single Target Direct Damage skill - if Warden can make the best use of some Non-Class skill. This was clearly evident during the 2020 D Swing meta when StamDen was pretty well at the top, or near it.

Doesn't that make sense?

Urzigurumash · August 2022

Let me add:

MagDen is obviously never going to gain Power by leaving everything exactly the way it is

"Revert DF to its prior power budget": No increase in Power

"Increase the 2nd DF to hit as hard as Blastbones+Graverobber": Big increase in Power

Aldoss · August 2022

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Aldoss

Again you're focusing on these Single Target skills and paying no attention to whether Shalks can be adjusted to give Warden some of the power that Necro finds in the combination of Blastbones, Avid Boneyard, and Colossus. Avid Boneyard is limited by the global synergy cooldown which is much longer than 9 seconds.

AoEs have more potential than Single Target skills.

Deep Fissure alone will never make MagDen a competitive duelist and it shouldn't.

Your comparison of Deep Fissure to these Single Target skills is, like I said before, probably being made because Deep Fissure is Warden's only real Direct Damage skill in PvP. So if you want to talk about how MagDen lacks what Plar, NB, and DK have in terms of Single Target burst, Deep Fissure should not be the object of your attention.

Warden doesn't necessarily need a Class Single Target Direct Damage skill - if Warden can make the best use of some Non-Class skill. This was clearly evident during the 2020 D Swing meta when StamDen was pretty well at the top, or near it.

Doesn't that make sense?

I disagree with your assertion that comparing these skills to single target variations is flawed because the single biggest factor in all of this comes via the premise that DF can MISS its target entirely and do nothing for the time invested in it.

However, let's go for it.

Stalking Blastbones has a power/sec of 2401.6. This is absolutely massive, but comes with a few unique drawbacks, the primary one being that BB is notorious for hitting random targets and not necessarily the one you wanted it to hit. It can be mitigated via Major Evasion, but cannot be dodged and cannot miss (so long as you are the intended target of the caster).

Grave Robber has a power/sec of 281.35 because the synergy is a 20 second cooldown. If you remove that cooldown and assume its power as instant on the first cast, then it has a power/sec of its base as 5627. That's not fair to use though because no one in their right mind would use GR without first casting a BB, so the delay needs to be 2.5 at minimum, but realistically is 3.5 seconds. That makes BB + GR have a power/sec value of 3323.14. That seems high, but again, that combo can only be done every 20 seconds. This is why I'm not spending time on it (although I guess I just did). That synergy is extremely unique to Necro and deserves to be unique.

I'm all for asking for Scorch to gain the same power/sec value as BB. I just don't think the devs will agree. To have DF gain a power/sec value of 2400, Scorch would have to deal 7204 dmg at base and be on its original 3 second timer.

Lughlongarm · August 2022

I have done some additional testing to Deep Fissure and this skill is better than implied. At first I thought that the skill's base damage was nerfed by 14% and the second tick just brings the damage back to what it was during week 1-3 of the PTS. But no, there is an hidden damage value - let's call it "X" If your base hidden value for this skill is 10k, the first blast will do - 8.6k and the second will do 12k damage(almost40% difference). The second tick is the real burst. Moreover, many players don't even realize that the penetration debuff does not apply to the damage proc itself. When you first cast deep Fissure, the skill will first apply the damage and only after the debuff, so it means you basically lose some damage. With this double proc combo, the big burst will have a good chance to land while the debuff already been applied(and for one cast).

Regarding Sub Assault - I reviewed the the PTS notes again and realized that the skill is completely bugged right now. Not only it procs at 3/8 sec(and not 3/6), its damage is also based on X*0.86 and not X. I believe they massed up somewhere along the way. If X is not part to the skill's core damage measurement, why everything is being calculated around it?(I don't think any other skill works like that).

I think the Core skill(Scorch) suppose to have the base damage of X with 3/9 cast time.

Sub Assault will also have the X damage value with 3/6 cast time.
Deep Fissure - will have X*0.86/X*1.2 damage values with 3/9 cast time.

SO overall, if this is how it was intended, I can stand behind these changes.

Urzigurumash · August 2022

Aldoss wrote: »

I disagree with your assertion that comparing these skills to single target variations is flawed because the single biggest factor in all of this comes via the premise that DF can MISS its target entirely and do nothing for the time invested in it.

Yes exactly like Graverobber and Colossus. They can miss, they're "skill shots", they have a long cooldown, and the big thing, opposed to Whip, or Curse, or Purifying Light, they can hit multiple targets at once.

I'm not on PTS so I have no idea how strong this 2nd hit of DF is. I trust your math there.

My point is simply that if the 2nd hit of DF were stronger than it is on live (relative to other skills), then the 9 second timer makes sense and this change might be an increase in Power for MagDen in XvX.

Of all the changes in these patch notes for the classes I play, this was the one I thought might be the best improvement if the damage is there to justify the timer. I'm surprised to see so many unhappy with it so quickly.

Urzigurumash · August 2022

@Lughlongarm

Good feedback.

About the Breach, it's a little tough to estimate just from reading the notes and not actually testing. On Live, since the Breach lasts 10 seconds and we re-cast every 3, it's no problem at all to keep Breach up 100% with no drop off.

Is that still the case with the current PTS timers for DF, you don't lose any uptime on Breach?

Mr_Stach · August 2022

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I have done some additional testing to Deep Fissure and this skill is better than implied. At first I thought that the skill's base damage was nerfed by 14% and the second tick just brings the damage back to what it was during week 1-3 of the PTS. But no, there is an hidden damage value - let's call it "X" If your base hidden value for this skill is 10k, the first blast will do - 8.6k and the second will do 12k damage(almost40% difference). The second tick is the real burst. Moreover, many players don't even realize that the penetration debuff does not apply to the damage proc itself. When you first cast deep Fissure, the skill will first apply the damage and only after the debuff, so it means you basically lose some damage. With this double proc combo, the big burst will have a good chance to land while the debuff already been applied(and for one cast).

Regarding Sub Assault - I reviewed the the PTS notes again and realized that the skill is completely bugged right now. Not only it procs at 3/8 sec(and not 3/6), its damage is also based on X*0.86 and not X. I believe they massed up somewhere along the way. If X is not part to the skill's core damage measurement, why everything is being calculated around it?(I don't think any other skill works like that).

I think the Core skill(Scorch) suppose to have the base damage of X with 3/9 cast time.

Sub Assault will also have the X damage value with 3/6 cast time.
Deep Fissure - will have X*0.86/X*1.2 damage values with 3/9 cast time.

SO overall, if this is how it was intended, I can stand behind these changes.

The issue is they are trying to make something looking interesting without changing it. It's the old, "Trim the Bushes so the Tree Stands Taller"

Moving Goal Posts is annoying.

If they want to make the 2nd burst do more damage, fine. But don't lessen the effect be making the first hit be worthless. Also don't talk about recasting the first hit the fake people out.

It's very apparent through a lot of the Dev Comments that the Devs do not see Eye to Eye with People that Play Warden at a High Level, because these types of changes wouldn't happen.

Ratzkifal · August 2022

Aldoss wrote: »

I want to be as calm as possible when writing posts like this, but I'm just really getting overwhelmed at how crazy these ideas are and how they're ever making their way out of the brainstorming sessions I assume ZOS has before implementing PTS changes.

The Dev Comments

While I'm thankful for the inclusion of these comments, the statements made within them are becoming increasingly insulting.

Warden is a "burst class" only because Wrobel said it was. That doesn't make us a burst class. Plars, Magdks, Sorcs, and Nightblades are burst classes by any definition. We all have access to delayed burst.

Dive is not delayed burst. It's just bad.

Scorch is the definition of delayed burst, but it's no different from every other class' delayed burst tool.

The developer comments are really important opportunities for us wardens to actually understand how ZOS sees us, and unfortunately, the recent comments have proven to us that no one at ZOS knows what a warden is, let alone what it needs to stop being the worst PvP DD in the game.

Delayed Burst

While I'm appreciate that scorch was looked at this week, the idea implemented is just absolutely poorly thought out. It's an idea that makes you go "oh man, what if we did this... " and it sounds so cool, but then you step back and think about all angles and perspectives and realize that it can never work, and then you scrap the idea.

How did it ever make it out of the brainstorming session that warden's burst should be locked behind a 9 second window?! If the ability were undodgeable, targetable, and only guaranteed if not purged, then you might have something there.

As is, this is an awful burden to put onto the already worst performing PvP DD in the game. Aiming any shalk hit is a challenge, but forcing us to now operate on the single longest delayed burst window in the game for a payout that barely competes with Purifying Light, Molten Whip, Haunting Curse, or Assassin's Will is disappointing, to say it as politely as I can.

As a NB, nothing is more infuriating than watching your target roll dodge that bow proc, but as infuriating as that is, it's a scenario that can be planned around, and still does absurd amounts of damage for the time cost that goes into it.

Watching my 9sec shalk miss is now the most devastating experience of any class. Watching it hit feels like winning the jackpot on a scratch off, but only to learn that the jackpot winnings is $20. The damage just isn't there.

This skill needs a complete rework, and that's unfortunately not possible now that you have no time to properly implement it. Give us the Falcon's Swiftness and Arctic change, do what you're intent on doing with ground and sticky dots, perpetuate the status quo of magden being bottom tier in PvP for yet another 3 month cycle, and call it a day.

I frankly have no interest in relearning this skill when it still means that magden is bottom tier. Go back to the drawing board. I'll go play some other games while you figure this out. From my discussions with other magdens, I'm not alone in this thinking.

Nightingale's Propositions

These are level headed, well thought out changes that should have been implemented years ago. It has continuously made 0 sense that stamdens gain no benefit from their skill morphs from class passives. It makes 0 sense that the "Masters of ice" have barely any frost damage skills.

Warden is a frost caster/bleed bruiser. That identity gives the class purpose and uniformity moving forward to better help balance its skills.

Scorch

Deep Fissure needs to deal ice damage and Sub Assault needs to deal bleed. This has to be done.

Major Breach has to be removed from DF and needs to be added to the base skill. There's no reason for it to exist on the one that already does more damage because it is the "chosen one" by our passives while the other isn't. Put Major Breach on the base and give DF the Minor buff. Stamdens can already rely on sundered to give them decent uptime on Minor.

Deep Fissure 100% CAN NOT become a 9 second burst window without being altered to become essentially the most overpowered, juiced skill in the game.

ZOS says they want numbers, not anecdotes. Here you go:

Assassin's Will has a power/sec of 1585.2, making it the single most hard hitting skill in the game that isn't an ultimate. It takes 5 seconds to charge, but can be withheld and used "at will" by the caster for when that player decides to expel it.

If you want to talk about DF being standardized against Haunting Curse, there you go. Haunting Curse now has a power/sec value TWICE that of the 9 second DF hit AND IT CANNOT BE DODGED OR MISSED. Technically this also hits multiple targets, but I'm considering the application of the skill and not the bonus damage that the skill provides as its special characteristic.

I just honestly don't understand what's happening at ZOS HQ anymore. Everyone is saying that they're guilty of balancing these skills based on a spreadsheet. So I just quantified them in a spreadsheet and I'm left totally lost at how anyone could look at this and say "yeah, that'll totally solve the warden problem!".

We need a miracle next Monday and I have no faith that we'll get it. Magden will remain as the meme that it is for yet another 3 month cycle.

EDIT - I guess I should give a proposal...

Revert DF back to 3 seconds and drop its power budget back to the same value that Haunting Curse has, 4906. That gives us a power/sec that puts it at the top of the charts for power/sec (1635.3), but is balanced around all the drawbacks that the skill currently suffers from (Major Evasion, dodge rolling, missing, locked in timer).

Magdens are already used to casting this skill every 3 seconds. Why change it? We like this play style. Don't change it, just make it worth the struggle to actually make it land.

This change does not make magden okay. We are still far from okay, but this PTS patch has done something so defeating that no one in their right mind will ever consider playing magden DD again. You are killing this class. Please stop.

I'm pretty sure Deep Fissure cannot be dodged. It's an AOE skill after all, so why would you be able to dodge it?
I also want to add that in PvP it's also a matter of how telegraphed the skill is. Deep Fissure is highly telegraphed yet you never know how many stacks a NB has on Assassin's Will and they can even activate the buff from stealth/invisibility so while you can expect the NB to have it active, it's not like you can always see "ah, he used that skill, so in 3s from now there will be a projectile fired at me", like you can with the Warden. I think Assassin's Will even has variable travel time, unlike some other abilities, so you don't even always have the same time to react to it. Btw, this has always been the reason why the stun on Sorc frags was fine, because you could see whenever your opponent had a frags proc ready from the crystals around their hands. I'm not saying Assassin's Will is overpowered but Scorch and morphs certainly fall flat in comparison in my opinion.

I don't think the damage should be buffed, but I think a slow could be pretty neat on it, just to make it easier to follow up on landing your ability when you did manage to land it. Oh also you completely forgot to talk about whether the skill can be blocked or not. Can Scorch be blocked even though it's technically a ground based ability? Curse was unblockable for a time but I think you can block it now. Assassin's Will can also be blocked. If Scorch is indeed dodgeable, maybe make it unblockable? It's highly telegraphed already anyway.

Personally, I dislike using the skill and the same goes for Assassin's Will. I guess it's a matter of preference, but the play patterns these skills create are just not for me. Power of the Light, Curse and Blastbones I like because those always hits their intended targets when I want them to without weird LA counting mechanics. I am playing my Stamden as a bow/bow where the short range from subassault isn't optimal and I don't play NB at all and that's mainly due to my dislike of how these skills work.

LeHarrt91 · August 2022

Good write up, i agree that like DK, the warden should specialize in damage types (and so should Sorc). I was glad to see an adjustment to Scorch, but i still dont think the class is where it needs to be. Hopefully we get more adjustments next week.
Cutting Dive and Screaming Cliff Racer need complete overhauls which isnt likely to happen this patch, and Winters Revenge needs some damage back (hopefully next week).

In terms of the Deep Fissure discussion, in PvP its burst potential with other skills was amazing add major and minor breach to that and its a deadly combo so i understand their want to reduce its burst potential but keep its overall damage, hence the 2nd proc. If you still want the 3s burst you can recast it after the first proc.

MindOfTheSwarm · August 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So really quick I want take us back to Murkmire, Zos Setout some goals to make Warden "better"

When this first happened I was excited, for a long time I wanted Northern Storm to be a nice Comparable Ultimate to the Bear and this was the Change we got:

Then in Scalebreaker, Advanced Species was reverted back to 2% but that loss of power never really shifted to anywhere else.

Northern Storm is Understandably a difficult ability to buff too much without it having a lot of consequences for PvP, but I really think we need to inject life back into it as a DPS Option for Warden.

Currently as it stands as Compared to DKs Standard of Might

Just by increasing the duration to 15s we get a lot closer to that value, but I also know that a 15s Northern Storm would be terrifying in PvP, which is why we would need to remove the Major Protection to make it more DPS Focused by Adding Major Brittle or something

But there's your trip down memory lane, let's hope we don't end up repeating ourselves again.

Duration increases do not increase DPS.

MindOfTheSwarm · August 2022

I HATE scorch. Really HATE it. It is clunky as hell to use and its damage is too important to give up. You basically MUST run the skill to get good DPS. That is bad design from the get go. This is further exacerbated by it having a critical debuff attached to one of its morphs. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't "attached" to the Warden and simply targeted an area acting like a timed mine of sorts (or even a triggered mine). It's the whole thing of it being attached to the Warden that feels so off-putting. I have tried running it and I can't bring myself to use it.

MashmalloMan · August 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So really quick I want take us back to Murkmire, Zos Setout some goals to make Warden "better"

When this first happened I was excited, for a long time I wanted Northern Storm to be a nice Comparable Ultimate to the Bear and this was the Change we got:

Then in Scalebreaker, Advanced Species was reverted back to 2% but that loss of power never really shifted to anywhere else.

Northern Storm is Understandably a difficult ability to buff too much without it having a lot of consequences for PvP, but I really think we need to inject life back into it as a DPS Option for Warden.

Currently as it stands as Compared to DKs Standard of Might

Just by increasing the duration to 15s we get a lot closer to that value, but I also know that a 15s Northern Storm would be terrifying in PvP, which is why we would need to remove the Major Protection to make it more DPS Focused by Adding Major Brittle or something

But there's your trip down memory lane, let's hope we don't end up repeating ourselves again.

Duration increases do not increase DPS.

I believe they're referring to PVE DPS which is just an average over time. Increasing the duration would technically increase how much DPS it gives over a parse, but not while it is active.

IAVITNI · August 2022

@ESO_Nightingale Amazing write-up.

Hopefully, ZoS listens. 100% with you on identity crisis and think that making all magicka morphs Frost at this point is simply a no brainer at this point.

I think Scorch needs a lot of attention though. The current proposal is just horrendous. So much can happen in 9 seconds.

This design works for curse because Curse is a "sticky" ability and the rest of the sorc kit has great synergy with delayed burst (even if a third of it isn't used).

Warden on the other hand has only ever really had Scorch. The damage needs to be there every 3 seconds or the class simply won't have pressure in PvP.

Wolfchild07 · August 2022

Remove the ugly cockroaches and bring back the haj mota.

Mr_Stach · August 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So really quick I want take us back to Murkmire, Zos Setout some goals to make Warden "better"

When this first happened I was excited, for a long time I wanted Northern Storm to be a nice Comparable Ultimate to the Bear and this was the Change we got:

Then in Scalebreaker, Advanced Species was reverted back to 2% but that loss of power never really shifted to anywhere else.

Northern Storm is Understandably a difficult ability to buff too much without it having a lot of consequences for PvP, but I really think we need to inject life back into it as a DPS Option for Warden.

Currently as it stands as Compared to DKs Standard of Might

Just by increasing the duration to 15s we get a lot closer to that value, but I also know that a 15s Northern Storm would be terrifying in PvP, which is why we would need to remove the Major Protection to make it more DPS Focused by Adding Major Brittle or something

But there's your trip down memory lane, let's hope we don't end up repeating ourselves again.

Duration increases do not increase DPS.

Would it not increase the overall DPS? A longer Duration would give you more Bang for your 200 Ultimate Buck. Bear currently is constantly out providing DPS, as well as having a small Ult Cost of 75, allowing you to have those Ult Bursts more often. While Northern Storm has no Passive Gain and the time that it is effective is relatively short.

Increasing the duration slightly would increase the Damage per activation.

Another solution could be to add a burst of upfront damage at activation before the DoT starts, which many of these Area Ultimates do.

The issue would always be pvp balance since a 15s Roaming Ult would be too strong probably.

Aldoss · August 2022

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Lughlongarm · August 2022

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

ESO_Nightingale · August 2022

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

they're roughly the same dps in pve. deep fissure is defacto better.

Lughlongarm · August 2022

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

they're roughly the same dps in pve. deep fissure is defacto better.

Yes, because based on my assumption which I explained, SA is bugged ATM so its roughly the same DPS as DF. After fix its should take the lead for consistent damage.

ESO_Nightingale · August 2022

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

they're roughly the same dps in pve. deep fissure is defacto better.

Yes, because based on my assumption which I explained, SA is bugged ATM so its roughly the same DPS as DF. After fix its should take the lead for consistent damage.

sub assault still got nerfed from live when it's not even making the class overperform, so not sure what that's about.

Lughlongarm · August 2022

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

they're roughly the same dps in pve. deep fissure is defacto better.

Yes, because based on my assumption which I explained, SA is bugged ATM so its roughly the same DPS as DF. After fix its should take the lead for consistent damage.

sub assault still got nerfed from live when it's not even making the class overperform, so not sure what that's about.

Neither do I, the 8% damage nerf to core skill was presented during week one, I mostly analyze week 4 changes.

ESO_Nightingale · August 2022

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

they're roughly the same dps in pve. deep fissure is defacto better.

Yes, because based on my assumption which I explained, SA is bugged ATM so its roughly the same DPS as DF. After fix its should take the lead for consistent damage.

sub assault still got nerfed from live when it's not even making the class overperform, so not sure what that's about.

Neither do I, the 8% damage nerf to core skill was presented during week one, I mostly analyze week 4 changes.

i don't think anyone knows. they even said that they knew that our damage was lacking, and yet they nerfed nearly every single part of our damage kit but piercing cold and dive lol

bear, advanced species, cutting dive, scorch and it's morphs, fetcher infection and winter's revenge. oh but they added arctic blast which is not unusable anymore so that totally makes up for it