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The execution was wrong. What I would have pitched as an alternative patch 35.
MindOfTheSwarm
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I feel like targeting high end DPS was the right play but it was executed incorrectly. Probably due to depending too much on quantitive data instead of qualitative data. Some things did indeed need addressing such as the over reliance on weaving. I actually agree that the gap between weavers and non-weavers needed bridging a little. But the execution was not good. So here is the pitch I would have shared if I was working at ZoS if asked to meet the goals of the patch.
ALTERNATIVE UPDATE 35
General Goals:
1. Bring down top end DPS while raising the DPS levels of lower end players.
Strategy:
i. Reduce Light and Heavy Attack damage by 35% and primary DPS skill damage by 10%.
ii. Increase single target DoT tick damage by 5% and increase total duration by 6 seconds.
iii. Increase ground DoT tick damage by 30% and reduce total duration by 2 seconds depending on morph.
iv: Increase aura DoT tick damage by 10% and increase total duration by 10 seconds.
iv. Increase duration of self applied buffs to 20 seconds.
v. Increase value of Weapon's Expert CP passive to 70% at maximum stages to compensate for LA and HA nerfs.
vi. Increase value of Thaumaturge, Biting Aura, Deadly Aim and Master-At-Arms to 30%, but only allow a maximum of 1 to be slotted at a time. Stars recolored red to set them apart.
vii. Add a new slotted CP star in Warfare constellation called 'Lethal Affliction' that increases the damage of status effects by 4% per stage to a maximum of 5 stages.
Class Goals: Independent changes not included in above goals.
2. Nightblade Skills.
Strategy:
i. Increase potency of Assassination skill line abilities to help them compete with more favorable skills in 2 handed skill line.
ii. Adjust Grim Focus skill to allow for a smoother rotation and reduce or eliminate its clunky nature.
iii. Remove the cast time on Death Stroke and morphs.
iv. Remove the cast time on Teleport Strike and morphs.
3. Sorcerer Skills.
Strategy:
i. Reduce potency of Crystal Weapon, or adjust it to account for hybridization changes.
ii. Reduce damage of Bound Armaments by 20%.
iii. Increase skill cost of Streak morph.
iv. Adjust Lightning Splash to correctly deal damage on final tick.
v. Adjust Shattering Prison to instantly deal damage on CC immune targets and apply a DoT effect on targets it deals damage to.
vi. Increase the damage of Suppression Field tick damage by 50% to allow it to compete with other Ultimate abilities damage output. Remove its ability to silence enemy players. Instead all enemies in the area are afflicted with Major Maim.
vii. Absorption Field keeps silence as does base ability.
viii. Increase Greater Storm Atronach damage.
ix. Increase duration of Daedric Prey to 20 seconds, explosion occurs once at 10 seconds then again at 20 seconds. Reduce explosion damage by 15% on this morph.
4. Dragonknight Skills.
Strategy:
i. Reduce the Seething Fury buff to 10% per stack.
ii. Rework Flame Lash into Poison Lash. Remove heal. Add function that causes it to deal 20% more damage vs Poisoned targets.
iii. Fix Dragonleap lock bug that prevents players from moving during leap.
iv. Adjust Spiked Armor and morphs to deal Flame Damage.
v. Adjust Corrosive Armor resistance debuff to only apply to itself. Increase its damage by 200%.
vii. Adjust Combustion passive and give Execute modifier to Poisoned and Burning status effects.
5. Templar Skills.
Strategy:
i. Reduce damage of Puncturing Strikes and morphs.
ii. Change Blazing Shield to deal damage over time in an AoE over its duration.
iii. Increase Vampire's Bane tick damage by 20% vs Vampires.
iv. Change Solar Flare and morphs damage type to Flame.
v. Change Nova and morphs damage type to Flame.
vi. Change Radiant Destruction and morphs damage type to Flame.
6. Warden Skills.
i. Increase duration of Arctic Wind and morphs to 20 seconds.
ii. Adjust Arctic Blast heal to scale with highest stats.
iii. Rework Frozen Retreat as a combination of both morphs.
iv. Rework Frozen Device into a single 24 second trap that acts as a strong 50% snare and dealing bursts of Frost Damage every 4 seconds. Enemies in area afflicted with Major Breach.
v. Reduce Scorch and morphs damage by 15%.
vi. Rework Deep Fissure to give Minor Breach only, but deal an additional 5% damage vs Chilled targets.
vii. Increase Feral Guardian and morphs basic swipe damage by 30%.
viii. Rework Corrupting Pollen and rename to Poison Pollen and make it deal Poison Damage to enemies in its area of effect. No longer heals.
ix. Increase duration of Crystalized Slab by 5 seconds. Unreflected slabs will automatically fire at the nearest enemy within 28 meters.
x. Rework Dive and morphs to increase appeal.
xi. Create an on demand stun.
7. Necromancer Skills.
i. Rework Flame Skull and morphs to increase appeal.
ii. Adjust Boneyard to give Major Breach baseline.
iii. Rework Unnerving Boneyard and rename it to Rotten Boneyard and make it deal Disease Damage and apply Major Defile to enemies in the area.
iv. Increase damage of skeletal mage and morphs.
v. Remove Remote Totem morph from Bone Totem and make its remote nature function baseline.
vi. Adjust Agony Totem to deal Disease Damage every pulse instead and apply Minor Vulnerability to enemies hit. Remove synergy.
vi. Create a new morph for Bone Totem that has comparable value to Agony Totem.
vii. Increase the effect duration of Empowering Grasp by 15 seconds.
viii. Remove Intensive Mender.
ix. Create a new morph for Spirit Mender called Soul Stealing Mender that deals damage over time to a nearby enemy and transfers a portion of that damage to you or a nearby ally.
x. Remove Animate Blastbones.
xi. Create a new morph for Reanimate called Summon Skeletons that summons a skeleton warrior for up to 3 other corpses in the area consumed. Skeleton warriors last 10 seconds or until they die.
This is what I would have suggested to lower top end DPS while making things easier for lower end players.
ALTERNATIVE UPDATE 35
General Goals:
1. Bring down top end DPS while raising the DPS levels of lower end players.
Strategy:
i. Reduce Light and Heavy Attack damage by 35% and primary DPS skill damage by 10%.
ii. Increase single target DoT tick damage by 5% and increase total duration by 6 seconds.
iii. Increase ground DoT tick damage by 30% and reduce total duration by 2 seconds depending on morph.
iv: Increase aura DoT tick damage by 10% and increase total duration by 10 seconds.
iv. Increase duration of self applied buffs to 20 seconds.
v. Increase value of Weapon's Expert CP passive to 70% at maximum stages to compensate for LA and HA nerfs.
vi. Increase value of Thaumaturge, Biting Aura, Deadly Aim and Master-At-Arms to 30%, but only allow a maximum of 1 to be slotted at a time. Stars recolored red to set them apart.
vii. Add a new slotted CP star in Warfare constellation called 'Lethal Affliction' that increases the damage of status effects by 4% per stage to a maximum of 5 stages.
Class Goals: Independent changes not included in above goals.
2. Nightblade Skills.
Strategy:
i. Increase potency of Assassination skill line abilities to help them compete with more favorable skills in 2 handed skill line.
ii. Adjust Grim Focus skill to allow for a smoother rotation and reduce or eliminate its clunky nature.
iii. Remove the cast time on Death Stroke and morphs.
iv. Remove the cast time on Teleport Strike and morphs.
3. Sorcerer Skills.
Strategy:
i. Reduce potency of Crystal Weapon, or adjust it to account for hybridization changes.
ii. Reduce damage of Bound Armaments by 20%.
iii. Increase skill cost of Streak morph.
iv. Adjust Lightning Splash to correctly deal damage on final tick.
v. Adjust Shattering Prison to instantly deal damage on CC immune targets and apply a DoT effect on targets it deals damage to.
vi. Increase the damage of Suppression Field tick damage by 50% to allow it to compete with other Ultimate abilities damage output. Remove its ability to silence enemy players. Instead all enemies in the area are afflicted with Major Maim.
vii. Absorption Field keeps silence as does base ability.
viii. Increase Greater Storm Atronach damage.
ix. Increase duration of Daedric Prey to 20 seconds, explosion occurs once at 10 seconds then again at 20 seconds. Reduce explosion damage by 15% on this morph.
4. Dragonknight Skills.
Strategy:
i. Reduce the Seething Fury buff to 10% per stack.
ii. Rework Flame Lash into Poison Lash. Remove heal. Add function that causes it to deal 20% more damage vs Poisoned targets.
iii. Fix Dragonleap lock bug that prevents players from moving during leap.
iv. Adjust Spiked Armor and morphs to deal Flame Damage.
v. Adjust Corrosive Armor resistance debuff to only apply to itself. Increase its damage by 200%.
vii. Adjust Combustion passive and give Execute modifier to Poisoned and Burning status effects.
5. Templar Skills.
Strategy:
i. Reduce damage of Puncturing Strikes and morphs.
ii. Change Blazing Shield to deal damage over time in an AoE over its duration.
iii. Increase Vampire's Bane tick damage by 20% vs Vampires.
iv. Change Solar Flare and morphs damage type to Flame.
v. Change Nova and morphs damage type to Flame.
vi. Change Radiant Destruction and morphs damage type to Flame.
6. Warden Skills.
i. Increase duration of Arctic Wind and morphs to 20 seconds.
ii. Adjust Arctic Blast heal to scale with highest stats.
iii. Rework Frozen Retreat as a combination of both morphs.
iv. Rework Frozen Device into a single 24 second trap that acts as a strong 50% snare and dealing bursts of Frost Damage every 4 seconds. Enemies in area afflicted with Major Breach.
v. Reduce Scorch and morphs damage by 15%.
vi. Rework Deep Fissure to give Minor Breach only, but deal an additional 5% damage vs Chilled targets.
vii. Increase Feral Guardian and morphs basic swipe damage by 30%.
viii. Rework Corrupting Pollen and rename to Poison Pollen and make it deal Poison Damage to enemies in its area of effect. No longer heals.
ix. Increase duration of Crystalized Slab by 5 seconds. Unreflected slabs will automatically fire at the nearest enemy within 28 meters.
x. Rework Dive and morphs to increase appeal.
xi. Create an on demand stun.
7. Necromancer Skills.
i. Rework Flame Skull and morphs to increase appeal.
ii. Adjust Boneyard to give Major Breach baseline.
iii. Rework Unnerving Boneyard and rename it to Rotten Boneyard and make it deal Disease Damage and apply Major Defile to enemies in the area.
iv. Increase damage of skeletal mage and morphs.
v. Remove Remote Totem morph from Bone Totem and make its remote nature function baseline.
vi. Adjust Agony Totem to deal Disease Damage every pulse instead and apply Minor Vulnerability to enemies hit. Remove synergy.
vi. Create a new morph for Bone Totem that has comparable value to Agony Totem.
vii. Increase the effect duration of Empowering Grasp by 15 seconds.
viii. Remove Intensive Mender.
ix. Create a new morph for Spirit Mender called Soul Stealing Mender that deals damage over time to a nearby enemy and transfers a portion of that damage to you or a nearby ally.
x. Remove Animate Blastbones.
xi. Create a new morph for Reanimate called Summon Skeletons that summons a skeleton warrior for up to 3 other corpses in the area consumed. Skeleton warriors last 10 seconds or until they die.
This is what I would have suggested to lower top end DPS while making things easier for lower end players.
1
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Mr_Stach✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This still doesn't address one of the largest sources of powercreep:
SETS
Zos badly needs to do another large balance pass of Sets to rein in a lot of power the introduce patch to patch.
Also..... just a side note. Scorch 15% nerf? Why? What did it ever do to you?Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main
Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup9 -
Matthew_Galvanus✭✭✭✭✭
✭This still doesn't address one of the largest sources of powercreep:
SETS
Zos badly needs to do another large balance pass of Sets to rein in a lot of power the introduce patch to patch.
Also..... just a side note. Scorch 15% nerf? Why? What did it ever do to you?
even then, you're still only addressing the symptoms of power creep instead of fixing it. Horizontal progression systems have ALWAYS been plagued by powercreep and it's made infinitely worse by the fact they keep trying to balance PvE and PvP side-by-side instead of individually.2 -
Mr_Stach✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »This still doesn't address one of the largest sources of powercreep:
SETS
Zos badly needs to do another large balance pass of Sets to rein in a lot of power the introduce patch to patch.
Also..... just a side note. Scorch 15% nerf? Why? What did it ever do to you?
even then, you're still only addressing the symptoms of power creep instead of fixing it. Horizontal progression systems have ALWAYS been plagued by powercreep and it's made infinitely worse by the fact they keep trying to balance PvE and PvP side-by-side instead of individually.
Well yes, Ideally they should separate PvE & PvP Balance which would fix a ton of issues as well, also maybe have a Combat Team that Understands the Classes and Combat outside of a Dummy Parse and Spreadsheet. Maybe having a Pve & PvP Combat Lead so it's not just one person making all the choices.Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main
Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup3 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭This still doesn't address one of the largest sources of powercreep:
SETS
Zos badly needs to do another large balance pass of Sets to rein in a lot of power the introduce patch to patch.
Also..... just a side note. Scorch 15% nerf? Why? What did it ever do to you?
I didn’t want overload the reasoning for every single change I think needed to happen. But since you asked.
Basically Scorch is overloaded as an ability. It is basically a “run this skill or go home” ability. Too much damage and utility in one skill especially Deep Fissure. But to not be too heavy handed, I shifted some of that lost damage into the Bear basic attacks and also the proposed Frozen Device rework as well as shifting Major Breach into it too. However, I gave a bit back to Fissure with 5% vs Chilled targets. In a nutshell, I think it’s too crutch. A similar argument could be made for Blastbones, but you can still play Necro without BB and still do well.0 -
Mr_Stach✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »This still doesn't address one of the largest sources of powercreep:
SETS
Zos badly needs to do another large balance pass of Sets to rein in a lot of power the introduce patch to patch.
Also..... just a side note. Scorch 15% nerf? Why? What did it ever do to you?
I didn’t want overload the reasoning for every single change I think needed to happen. But since you asked.
Basically Scorch is overloaded as an ability. It is basically a “run this skill or go home” ability. Too much damage and utility in one skill especially Deep Fissure. But to not be too heavy handed, I shifted some of that lost damage into the Bear basic attacks and also the proposed Frozen Device rework as well as shifting Major Breach into it too. However, I gave a bit back to Fissure with 5% vs Chilled targets. In a nutshell, I think it’s too crutch. A similar argument could be made for Blastbones, but you can still play Necro without BB and still do well.
So Balancing Shalks is weird you need to look how it compares to similar skills. Deep Fissure more or less correlates with BB sure, but Sub Assault lines up with Haunting Curse. as it currently stands on Live Servers. Now if we make both of them launch like Sub on live with a 3 & 6 second interval Deep Fissure will out damage Sub Assault just by itself due to wardens having 10% increased Magic Damage. If anything Sub Assault would need a little something to stay afloat.
To continue my mini rant, if you want to make Shalks Roughly the same damage as Haunting Curse, and make it more balanced, I would nerf it by 8% to bring it closer to the 5998 damage provided below. I also think Haunting Curse's Timing and Damage is what they based the Nerfs on for U35 Shalks on in the first place.
Also making Bear even more powerful isn't a great Idea, since it's already a huge portion of Wardens Damage, making it do even more would make it straight up mandatory which it basically already is. Just sayin.
U33 Numbers for Comparison (Damage difference between U33 & U44 is almost nonexistent)
Blighted Blastbones 3600 (2.5 sec + leap)
Deep Fissure 3564 (3s)
Haunting Curse 5998 (2758 AoE) (first explosion 3.5s second after 8.5s)
Subterranean Assault 3240 + 3240 = 6480 (first burst 3s second at 6s)
These numbers are curtesy of Skinny Cheeks by the way, he was super cool and did some sharing.Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main
Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup2 -
Vahndamme✭✭✭✭I read this post and I think no, just no. Especially the templar bit, like why would you change a holy character into some fire spewing god. Holy / Radiant damage is more appropriate. Aka just magic damage whatever. The "you have to choose" cp node thingy also brings it's issues.
Like I love you putting input and the effort you probably put into it but yikes no.
Ps. Power creep is definitely okay, like how else do you want the masses to ever see a HM. If ZoS keeps tuning for the 0,01% then huge power creep is required. In this MMO trials/raids remain relevant entire time but for example WoW they killed all their old raids by making huge power leaps with the lvl cap increase. I'm not saying they should make trials solo-able like in WoW but heck, you can make them easier and just adjust the achievements like they did. Ahead/On/Behind the curve whatever. Like giving you a different variant of an achievement when you clear stuff on the chapter it came out or something like that.
Oh well, enough forum for me.1 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭I read this post and I think no, just no. Especially the templar bit, like why would you change a holy character into some fire spewing god. Holy / Radiant damage is more appropriate. Aka just magic damage whatever. The "you have to choose" cp node thingy also brings it's issues.
Like I love you putting input and the effort you probably put into it but yikes no.
Ps. Power creep is definitely okay, like how else do you want the masses to ever see a HM. If ZoS keeps tuning for the 0,01% then huge power creep is required. In this MMO trials/raids remain relevant entire time but for example WoW they killed all their old raids by making huge power leaps with the lvl cap increase. I'm not saying they should make trials solo-able like in WoW but heck, you can make them easier and just adjust the achievements like they did. Ahead/On/Behind the curve whatever. Like giving you a different variant of an achievement when you clear stuff on the chapter it came out or something like that.
Oh well, enough forum for me.
The whole point of powering up those nodes but limiting to one is to create more build style. Right now CP is a mess as there is no choice. Everyone just takes the meta nodes and as a result every build basically does the same thing. You should have to choose between investing in damage types. Having all available is why they nerfed them to a measly 6% in the first place.
Put it this way 6% only really benefits hard hitting skills. This is my Thaumaturge is more or less worthless now.
Here is some math to illustrate. Just example:
1 LA and DPS Spammable = 10000 DPS
Assuming you take 2 nodes that benefit this would be 12% more damage so;
11200 DPS
But let’s take a DoT that deals 1000 damage per second and say you stack 3 of them. So 3000 DPS:
3360 DPS
There is a clear winner here. There is no comparison in which is more valuable. By buffing them massively but limiting them to one bridges the discrepancy of value. This change alone wouldn’t account for what is the real issue though which is that primary DPS skills are the core of every toon. I think it would be better to ditch primary DPS skills altogether and instead have a system where people invest into what skills they want to use as their main damage source.Edited by MindOfTheSwarm on 27 July 2022 00:590 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just no. This line of thinking is what made this horrendous update possible. Aiming at the top end to fix lower end players problem composed of bow light attacks with willy nilly setup never ever works. It always hurt mid-tier the most.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel2 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭while i think some of the warden changes were well intentioned, i don't think that they'd really be good for balance. crys slab is way too powerful like that. i messed around with that type of idea but quickly realised it's impact would be insane for survivability. scorch seems pretty weird. is it still magic damage? removing more of it's damage is really painful in pvp. i'm confused on frozen device's rework, if it's a trap then why does it act like an aoe? does the dot apply to the target even if they're out of it?. poison damage is mostly dk's thing now that stamdens's damage types are moving towards bleed. if anything this should have something to do with thorns, and deal bleed damage. bear really doesn't need to deal more damage.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Frostingale
Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/eso_nightingale0 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »while i think some of the warden changes were well intentioned, i don't think that they'd really be good for balance. crys slab is way too powerful like that. i messed around with that type of idea but quickly realised it's impact would be insane for survivability. scorch seems pretty weird. is it still magic damage? removing more of it's damage is really painful in pvp. i'm confused on frozen device's rework, if it's a trap then why does it act like an aoe? does the dot apply to the target even if they're out of it?. poison damage is mostly dk's thing now that stamdens's damage types are moving towards bleed. if anything this should have something to do with thorns, and deal bleed damage. bear really doesn't need to deal more damage.
Think of the Frozen Device as like a mine that goes off periodically. Not a DoT. Thorns is not a bad idea as an alternative.0 -
Mr_Stach✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »while i think some of the warden changes were well intentioned, i don't think that they'd really be good for balance. crys slab is way too powerful like that. i messed around with that type of idea but quickly realised it's impact would be insane for survivability. scorch seems pretty weird. is it still magic damage? removing more of it's damage is really painful in pvp. i'm confused on frozen device's rework, if it's a trap then why does it act like an aoe? does the dot apply to the target even if they're out of it?. poison damage is mostly dk's thing now that stamdens's damage types are moving towards bleed. if anything this should have something to do with thorns, and deal bleed damage. bear really doesn't need to deal more damage.
Think of the Frozen Device as like a mine that goes off periodically. Not a DoT. Thorns is not a bad idea as an alternative.
Periodic damage = Damage over Time = DoTAltoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main
Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup0 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just no. This line of thinking is what made this horrendous update possible. Aiming at the top end to fix lower end players problem composed of bow light attacks with willy nilly setup never ever works. It always hurt mid-tier the most.
I’m not sure what you mean by this? Can you give further details?
If you mean Light Attacks didn’t need nerfing, I’m afraid I don’t agree. It’s responsible for most of the power creep. Weaving is not a bad thing for those that like to do it, but having weaving as an absolute requirement to even have a hope of getting into veteran content is unhealthy for the game.
Nerfing LA was the right move. They defo hit them too hard mind and having them not scaling with stats was a bad move. But they defo needed nerfing, which is why I think a percentage hit was a far wiser course of action. Making them all flat damage was a poor decision.
As for CP bonuses, everything is being flattened out. This is bad, really bad. But it was necessary if all CP nodes are available. There is no cost benefit when choosing between them. Every other mmo or rpg style game has definitive choices that push you towards a certain style but at the cost of losing things elsewhere.
Being allowed to create a character that can do maximum burst damage AND maximum DoT damage, is bad for the game. It’s just purely one dimensional and boring. When players invest in something they should lose out elsewhere. This is why I firmly believe that CP passives that boost specific damage types need a significant boost, but allowing them all to be chosen simply creates a new meta where everyone picks the same nodes. It’s extremely dull.
It’s the same with buffs, people cried over not having the same buffs available on all classes. So now what do we end up with?
All classes have access to all buffs, all have one ground DoT, all have one single target DoT, all have one direct damage spammable, all have one AoE spammable. So where is class identity? Then people wonder why everything is being standardised. Truth is we asked for this and now we are paying the price in having all classes pretty much feel the same and a singular play style (put down a bunch of DoT and then spam). Seriously boring after a while. And it makes me sad because it never used to be like this.
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MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »while i think some of the warden changes were well intentioned, i don't think that they'd really be good for balance. crys slab is way too powerful like that. i messed around with that type of idea but quickly realised it's impact would be insane for survivability. scorch seems pretty weird. is it still magic damage? removing more of it's damage is really painful in pvp. i'm confused on frozen device's rework, if it's a trap then why does it act like an aoe? does the dot apply to the target even if they're out of it?. poison damage is mostly dk's thing now that stamdens's damage types are moving towards bleed. if anything this should have something to do with thorns, and deal bleed damage. bear really doesn't need to deal more damage.
Think of the Frozen Device as like a mine that goes off periodically. Not a DoT. Thorns is not a bad idea as an alternative.
Periodic damage = Damage over Time = DoT
So I guess that makes Sub Assault a DoT. Only it isn’t in the context of this game. In ESO damage which shows orange number are DoT’s. White numbers or yellow numbers are direct damage. This is why Thaumaturge does not affect Sub Assault, despite it dealing ‘periodic damage.’ Although, recently in PTS they applied a ‘fix’ to Flurry where it does not benefit from things that buff DoT’s when it literally is a DoT as it shows orange numbers.Edited by MindOfTheSwarm on 27 July 2022 04:200 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sure I guess nerf LA, but "sticky" DoT attacks, ranged attacks, lightning staff attacks, HA, healing, resource return, every class ability, and even for god's sake restoration staff attack? Overkill doesn't even cover it.
PS5/NA1 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »Sure I guess nerf LA, but "sticky" DoT attacks, ranged attacks, lightning staff attacks, HA, healing, resource return, every class ability, and even for god's sake restoration staff attack? Overkill doesn't even cover it.
Yes, they went overboard. My suggestion was an attempt to actually bridge the gap. By buffing DoT’s and bringing down LA you make it easier for lower end players. Offering a slower paced style is the only solution, but that should not come at the expense of more active play styles which unfortunately is what this patch has done.0 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭This still doesn't address one of the largest sources of powercreep:
SETS
Zos badly needs to do another large balance pass of Sets to rein in a lot of power the introduce patch to patch.
Also..... just a side note. Scorch 15% nerf? Why? What did it ever do to you?
You’re right about Sets, this is an issue0 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just no. This line of thinking is what made this horrendous update possible. Aiming at the top end to fix lower end players problem composed of bow light attacks with willy nilly setup never ever works. It always hurt mid-tier the most.
Also, this suggestion would have be like I said. A pitch, not an absolute solution. Problem is that things get put through and nothing is tweaked to what players want or need. Correct way to do a PTS is to put forward your proposed changes and then listen to player feedback properly which I don’t think ZoS does enough of. At the same time though, you do unfortunately have to ‘vet’ certain feedback if it does not go into detail on ‘why?’ Like it or not, devs have no choice but to ignore rants if the reasoning is flimsy or purely based on emotion. However, if feedback is constructive then it should be taken to heart. Which it isn’t for the most part, which is what ultimately leads to player frustration.0 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also, let’s hypothetically say I was working as a combat dev at ZoS.
I would push for Animal Companions to have Frost Damage morphs. Now please understand, I am 100% against this move. I always have been. However, I would still try push it through.
Why? Because the majority of Warden players want this change.
It’s not up to me or a small number of devs to resist it. It’s just not. As a dev, I would swallow my pride and personal prejudice and listen to the market. Because it would be my job. That’s that. Same goes for other classes.
As someone else pointed out. I want Templar morphs on holy fire spells to deal fire, but say this went through on PTS and most of the community said ‘no’. I as a dev would revert the change immediately. As far as I am concerned, the market dictates the product direction and vision.1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »while i think some of the warden changes were well intentioned, i don't think that they'd really be good for balance. crys slab is way too powerful like that. i messed around with that type of idea but quickly realised it's impact would be insane for survivability. scorch seems pretty weird. is it still magic damage? removing more of it's damage is really painful in pvp. i'm confused on frozen device's rework, if it's a trap then why does it act like an aoe? does the dot apply to the target even if they're out of it?. poison damage is mostly dk's thing now that stamdens's damage types are moving towards bleed. if anything this should have something to do with thorns, and deal bleed damage. bear really doesn't need to deal more damage.
Think of the Frozen Device as like a mine that goes off periodically. Not a DoT. Thorns is not a bad idea as an alternative.
seems like it'd be insanely inconsistent unless the boss is sitting still for 39 years. sounds like it'd be rather bad. all traps once activated, expire instantly. are you able to come up with an effect that works with that line of logic? it just doesn't seem like a trap since it doesn't expire. it's basically just a very delayed AoE DoT.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on 27 July 2022 05:56PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Frostingale
Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/eso_nightingale0 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »while i think some of the warden changes were well intentioned, i don't think that they'd really be good for balance. crys slab is way too powerful like that. i messed around with that type of idea but quickly realised it's impact would be insane for survivability. scorch seems pretty weird. is it still magic damage? removing more of it's damage is really painful in pvp. i'm confused on frozen device's rework, if it's a trap then why does it act like an aoe? does the dot apply to the target even if they're out of it?. poison damage is mostly dk's thing now that stamdens's damage types are moving towards bleed. if anything this should have something to do with thorns, and deal bleed damage. bear really doesn't need to deal more damage.
Think of the Frozen Device as like a mine that goes off periodically. Not a DoT. Thorns is not a bad idea as an alternative.
seems like it'd be insanely inconsistent unless the boss is sitting still for 39 years. sounds like it'd be rather bad. all traps once activated, expire instantly. are you able to come up with an effect that works with that line of logic? it just doesn't seem like a trap since it doesn't expire. it's basically just a very delayed AoE DoT.
How about if it detonated instantly. Like a Mine that rearms itself over and over its duration. Maybe for a total 15 seconds instead. Like once every 5 seconds. A bit like an Unstable Wall that goes off a few times, but without the DoT component. No orange numbers, bursty explosions. Say 8000 damage every 5 seconds on an optimal character. That would result in 4 explosions total.
What would you suggest as alternative?Edited by MindOfTheSwarm on 27 July 2022 08:150 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »while i think some of the warden changes were well intentioned, i don't think that they'd really be good for balance. crys slab is way too powerful like that. i messed around with that type of idea but quickly realised it's impact would be insane for survivability. scorch seems pretty weird. is it still magic damage? removing more of it's damage is really painful in pvp. i'm confused on frozen device's rework, if it's a trap then why does it act like an aoe? does the dot apply to the target even if they're out of it?. poison damage is mostly dk's thing now that stamdens's damage types are moving towards bleed. if anything this should have something to do with thorns, and deal bleed damage. bear really doesn't need to deal more damage.
Think of the Frozen Device as like a mine that goes off periodically. Not a DoT. Thorns is not a bad idea as an alternative.
seems like it'd be insanely inconsistent unless the boss is sitting still for 39 years. sounds like it'd be rather bad. all traps once activated, expire instantly. are you able to come up with an effect that works with that line of logic? it just doesn't seem like a trap since it doesn't expire. it's basically just a very delayed AoE DoT.
How about if it detonated instantly. Like a Mine that rearms itself over and over its duration. Maybe for a total 15 seconds instead. Like once every 5 seconds. A bit like an Unstable Wall that goes off a few times, but without the DoT component. No orange numbers, bursty explosions. Say 8000 damage every 5 seconds on an optimal character. That would result in 4 explosions total.
What would you suggest as alternative?
it still sounds pretty meh. you'd never use this in pvp. and in pve if nothing is standing still, then you're kinda out of luck.
i'd personally rework it. i mean off the top of my head, what if it was a skill like sorc curse, elemental drain or templar's power of the light?
you throw a curse type- effect on them, only 1 can be active at a time, and while it's active, maybe it does a small damage over time to them, but it increases your overall potentcy of frost damage skills against them while active. i don't mean specifically +10% frost damage, but more along the lines of doing some powerful effect when hit by chilled, or a frost damage effect, or maybe it makes frost dots always crit that single enemy or something unique. it could even be chilled execute. but it'd be a unique debuff that only frost dps would use but it'd make them viable.
probably a bad idea. but this skill is such a question mark that i think you could do just about anything to it.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on 27 July 2022 09:36PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Frostingale
Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/eso_nightingale0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just no. This line of thinking is what made this horrendous update possible. Aiming at the top end to fix lower end players problem composed of bow light attacks with willy nilly setup never ever works. It always hurt mid-tier the most.
I’m not sure what you mean by this? Can you give further details?
If you mean Light Attacks didn’t need nerfing, I’m afraid I don’t agree. It’s responsible for most of the power creep. Weaving is not a bad thing for those that like to do it, but having weaving as an absolute requirement to even have a hope of getting into veteran content is unhealthy for the game.
Nerfing LA was the right move. They defo hit them too hard mind and having them not scaling with stats was a bad move. But they defo needed nerfing, which is why I think a percentage hit was a far wiser course of action. Making them all flat damage was a poor decision.
As for CP bonuses, everything is being flattened out. This is bad, really bad. But it was necessary if all CP nodes are available. There is no cost benefit when choosing between them. Every other mmo or rpg style game has definitive choices that push you towards a certain style but at the cost of losing things elsewhere.
Being allowed to create a character that can do maximum burst damage AND maximum DoT damage, is bad for the game. It’s just purely one dimensional and boring. When players invest in something they should lose out elsewhere. This is why I firmly believe that CP passives that boost specific damage types need a significant boost, but allowing them all to be chosen simply creates a new meta where everyone picks the same nodes. It’s extremely dull.
It’s the same with buffs, people cried over not having the same buffs available on all classes. So now what do we end up with?
All classes have access to all buffs, all have one ground DoT, all have one single target DoT, all have one direct damage spammable, all have one AoE spammable. So where is class identity? Then people wonder why everything is being standardised. Truth is we asked for this and now we are paying the price in having all classes pretty much feel the same and a singular play style (put down a bunch of DoT and then spam). Seriously boring after a while. And it makes me sad because it never used to be like this.
Just the entire concept of 'target the top end'. It does not work. Period. It never have and never will. Something like Oakensoul was the right thing for raising the floor and close the gap.
Morrowind also was their attempt at 'closing the gap' but it also turned out to be doing the exact opposite. They should concentrate their effort more to help those at the floor by adding stuffs for them instead of wasting time trying to press down the ceiling.Edited by IZZEFlameLash on 27 July 2022 09:53Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just no. This line of thinking is what made this horrendous update possible. Aiming at the top end to fix lower end players problem composed of bow light attacks with willy nilly setup never ever works. It always hurt mid-tier the most.
I’m not sure what you mean by this? Can you give further details?
If you mean Light Attacks didn’t need nerfing, I’m afraid I don’t agree. It’s responsible for most of the power creep. Weaving is not a bad thing for those that like to do it, but having weaving as an absolute requirement to even have a hope of getting into veteran content is unhealthy for the game.
Nerfing LA was the right move. They defo hit them too hard mind and having them not scaling with stats was a bad move. But they defo needed nerfing, which is why I think a percentage hit was a far wiser course of action. Making them all flat damage was a poor decision.
As for CP bonuses, everything is being flattened out. This is bad, really bad. But it was necessary if all CP nodes are available. There is no cost benefit when choosing between them. Every other mmo or rpg style game has definitive choices that push you towards a certain style but at the cost of losing things elsewhere.
Being allowed to create a character that can do maximum burst damage AND maximum DoT damage, is bad for the game. It’s just purely one dimensional and boring. When players invest in something they should lose out elsewhere. This is why I firmly believe that CP passives that boost specific damage types need a significant boost, but allowing them all to be chosen simply creates a new meta where everyone picks the same nodes. It’s extremely dull.
It’s the same with buffs, people cried over not having the same buffs available on all classes. So now what do we end up with?
All classes have access to all buffs, all have one ground DoT, all have one single target DoT, all have one direct damage spammable, all have one AoE spammable. So where is class identity? Then people wonder why everything is being standardised. Truth is we asked for this and now we are paying the price in having all classes pretty much feel the same and a singular play style (put down a bunch of DoT and then spam). Seriously boring after a while. And it makes me sad because it never used to be like this.
Just the entire concept of 'target the top end'. It does not work. Period. It never have and never will. Something like Oakensoul was the right thing for raising the floor and close the gap.
Morrowind also was their attempt at 'closing the gap' but it also turned out to be doing the exact opposite. They should concentrate their effort more to help those at the floor by adding stuffs for them instead of wasting time trying to press down the ceiling.
Interesting. I guess power creep is inevitable. Maybe, they should add Very Hard modes to content for top end.0