Please don't nerf PvP

Kilandros · May 2014

I have never seen a game without incessant cries that something is "OP." Or that something else is "Broken." And issues that are "Game breaking." In every single game--EVERY game--there's always something that is "ruining" PvP and needs to be fixed before it "breaks" the game.

The problem, however, is not that these co-called game-breaking issues exist. The problem is that Developers tend to cave to these calls for nerfs.

Gamers, unfortunately, are largely unrealistic and generally dishonest with regard to their abilities and skill levels. In other words, nearly everyone thinks he or she is really good--but in fact, most people are just OK at whatever game they're playing. This becomes more apparent when you inject people into PvP where they are pitted directly against other players who are often more skilled than they are.

Some gamers adapt and learn to improve their gameplay. Others quit. Some however take to the forums with wounded egos and a bone to pick with the Developers. The latter, it seems, believe that but for some mechanic or skill or class they would be winning more fights. They are utterly convinced of this.

You don't need to go very far for evidence of this. Take the Vampire situation, for example. According to people posting here, Vampirism is akin to Godliness. Yet if you gave most of these posters a VR10 Dragonknight with Stage 4 Rank 10 Vampirism, I suspect that very few if any of them could actually pull off what a few very, very skilled players are able to do with Vampirism. I know I can't. And I know others who can't, too.

In every game there are always players who are superior and tend to dominate PvP, much to the chagrin of the rest of us. There are good players, and then there are the rest of us. It is a skill divide, plain and simple. And yet in every game players try to trivialize this skill element--they instead blame whatever class and mechanic they can. It's easy to blame something that is outside of your control. It's not so easy to accept the reality that you got outplayed.

ZOS, please take slow, measured steps when balancing your game. I counsel the Development team to avoid knee-jerk reactions for the sake of players today who will be gone tomorrow anyway. Balance should be a patient, thoughtful process designed to improve the game; it should not be something used to appease the vocal forum community.

frwinters_ESO · May 2014

im sure you don't need to tell the developers of the company to take slow calculating steps.

Reavan · May 2014

Hahhahaha ultimate troll when you said.VERY FEW SKILLED PLAYERS CAN USE.
Hahhaha seriously!
A good one but troll bait none the less, reported for making a thread about something that already has many topics and ofc the trolling. Good day.

Syndy · May 2014

Kilandros wrote: »

You don't need to go very far for evidence of this. Take the Vampire situation, for example. According to people posting here, Vampirism is akin to Godliness. Yet if you gave most of these posters a VR10 Dragonknight with Stage 4 Rank 10 Vampirism, I suspect that very few if any of them could actually pull off what a few very, very skilled players are able to do with Vampirism. I know I can't. And I know others who can't, too.

Using Ult Reduction gear (BoE) easily obtainable with the help of just a few friends, and spamming Bat-Swarm and Mist Form is hard yo...

More breaking news at 10...

savak · May 2014

Lol @ op... Obviously another vamp trying to defend the status quo. What a joke, even good pvpers see the problem. There is nothing skillfull about spamming one button.

Alexandrious · May 2014

You vamps seriously gotta stop trying to defend yourselves. I more or less dont care for vamps anymore, hell I like all the vamp bads, even the ones who people deem "Skilled" because with my Fire Caster NON VAMP dk, fighters guild passives, and Turn undead, I am a nightmare for even VR10 Former emp vamps, and some of em would even take off running while in the middle of their cheezy batswarm b.s the instant they see me.

So to all you lolvamps, please keep on vamping, so my fire + FG passives continue to wreck you.

Kilandros · May 2014

Reavan wrote: »

Hahhahaha ultimate troll when you said.VERY FEW SKILLED PLAYERS CAN USE.
Hahhaha seriously!
A good one but troll bait none the less, reported for making a thread about something that already has many topics and ofc the trolling. Good day.

Enjoy your ban after a Mod decides you're abusing the report function, I guess.

SuperScrubby · May 2014

This thread made me laugh. Yes because spamming standard at what like 10-30 ult cost while spamming mist form FOREVER is a lot of skill. Don't forget shield bashing takes a lot of skill too.

I don't know where the bar is set for you to consider someone skilled but it sure as hell is really low.

Kilandros · May 2014

savak wrote: »

Lol @ op... Obviously another vamp trying to defend the status quo. What a joke, even good pvpers see the problem. There is nothing skillfull about spamming one button.

SuperScrubby wrote: »

This thread made me laugh. Yes because spamming standard at what like 10-30 ult cost while spamming mist form FOREVER is a lot of skill. Don't forget shield bashing takes a lot of skill too.

I don't know where the bar is set for you to consider someone skilled but it sure as hell is really low.

Yes because spamming the skill just, you know, FORCES all other players to get in/stay in melee range so Bats are effective. Are those the players by whom you measure skill?

roflcopter · May 2014

Kilandros wrote: »

savak wrote: »

Lol @ op... Obviously another vamp trying to defend the status quo. What a joke, even good pvpers see the problem. There is nothing skillfull about spamming one button.

SuperScrubby wrote: »

This thread made me laugh. Yes because spamming standard at what like 10-30 ult cost while spamming mist form FOREVER is a lot of skill. Don't forget shield bashing takes a lot of skill too.

I don't know where the bar is set for you to consider someone skilled but it sure as hell is really low.

Yes because spamming the skill just, you know, FORCES all other players to get in/stay in melee range so Bats are effective. Are those the players by whom you measure skill?

In your personal opinion are the vampire builds balanced in PVP and are people overreacting and why?

If there is no reason to tweak the class at least let us know.

Kilandros · May 2014

roflcopter wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

savak wrote: »

Lol @ op... Obviously another vamp trying to defend the status quo. What a joke, even good pvpers see the problem. There is nothing skillfull about spamming one button.

SuperScrubby wrote: »

This thread made me laugh. Yes because spamming standard at what like 10-30 ult cost while spamming mist form FOREVER is a lot of skill. Don't forget shield bashing takes a lot of skill too.

I don't know where the bar is set for you to consider someone skilled but it sure as hell is really low.

Yes because spamming the skill just, you know, FORCES all other players to get in/stay in melee range so Bats are effective. Are those the players by whom you measure skill?

In your personal opinion are the vampire builds balanced in PVP and are people overreacting and why?

If there is no reason to tweak the class at least let us know.

I think people are largely overreacting. I think Vampires are too powerful, yes, but people are GROSSLY underestimating the skill needed to pull off what those Vampires are doing. Most Vampires are regular PvPers and are just OK. A handful of very skilled players are effectively Godmoding with Vampirism (it doesn't hurt that they fight very bad players who stand in CC without breaking and facetank Bats).

It's not like every John Smith is getting Vampirism and is all of a sudden tearing it up in Cyrodil. But some posters would believe that's exactly what's happening. One poster above indicated that it's simply a matter of getting Ultimate cost reduction gear. That's BS. There's a reason there's only a handful of players who can pull this off.

So yes, please "balance" Vampires but do it in a measured fashion. Otherwise it will just nuke the skill line for everybody else. Thus why my post was all about ZOS taking slow, measured steps. I clearly indicate that balance is an ongoing thing--I only ask it not be handled in a knee-jerk reaction.

Syndy · May 2014

Kilandros wrote: »

It's not like every John Smith is getting Vampirism and is all of a sudden tearing it up in Cyrodil. But some posters would believe that's exactly what's happening. One poster above indicated that it's simply a matter of getting Ultimate cost reduction gear. That's BS. There's a reason there's only a handful of players who can pull this off.

Handful?

I have seen more than I can count, and my initial post (the one you reference) is spot on. That is all you have to do, there is nothing skillful about pressing one button or two buttons to pwn everything around you.

They don't even have to worry about dodge rolling, which is kinda skillful (not really), just stand there and spam 2 buttons while everything around them dies.

Kilandros · May 2014

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

It's not like every John Smith is getting Vampirism and is all of a sudden tearing it up in Cyrodil. But some posters would believe that's exactly what's happening. One poster above indicated that it's simply a matter of getting Ultimate cost reduction gear. That's BS. There's a reason there's only a handful of players who can pull this off.

Handful?

I have seen more than I can count, and my initial post (the one you reference) is spot on. That is all you have to do, there is nothing skillful about pressing one button or two buttons to pwn everything around you.

They don't even have to worry about blocking or dodge rolling, which is kinda skillful (not really), just stand there and spam 2 buttons while everything around them dies.

Then please post a video of yourself doing what those other PvPers have been doing. I suspect that in truth you actually have no idea whether it's easy or difficult.

Kypho · May 2014

Trollolol. OP or broken abilities, whatever you say, facts wont change. Only who abusing em, and the pve-ers saying its not OP/broken.

Kypho · May 2014

You know what? The issue is forwarded to Zenimax. if they say its fine, its fine. If not then just buy a tissue box

Syndy · May 2014

I'm not going to post a video of me doing anything that cheesey... Everyone is my guild is not allowed to do it. Also I refuse to be a vampire.

I KNOW it is that easy.

Anyway

Keep Calm Troll On.

AshTal · May 2014

OP made me laugh I even thought it was serious when I started reading it, then released its basically saying leave Vamps as god like beings and hope everyone else continues to pay.

Kilandros · May 2014

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm not going to post a video of me doing anything that cheesey... Everyone is my guild is not allowed to do it. Also I refuse to be a vampire.

I KNOW it is that easy.

Anyway

Keep Calm Troll On.

You in fact don't know because you've never done it. Call me a troll all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that when you were asked to put your money where your mouth is, you backed of saying you have nothing to prove and that you just KNOW.

Wow, truly persuasive!

Kilandros · May 2014

AshTal wrote: »

OP made me laugh I even thought it was serious when I started reading it, then released its basically saying leave Vamps as god like beings and hope everyone else continues to pay.

Balance cautiously /= leave Vamps as Gods. But nuance tends to be lost on the internet, so I don't hold it against you.

The problem with these forums is that they have become so anti-Vampires that anything resembling reason is viewed as intrinsically pro-Vampire.

I'm not pro-Vampire. But I'm also not convinced than any of you claiming Vampires are "lol smash button repeatedly" easy have any clue what you're talking about. And you don't. Nearly none of you have any idea whether it's actually easy or hard--you don't bother to try. You watch a video, you form a conclusion, then you come here to post vitriol.

Try be reasonable for once. Read my OP carefully. My post wasn't exclusive to Vampires which I indicate are merely an example. It's about balance in general and how easily Devs can overcompensate what are perceived as bigger problems then they actually are.

Syndy · May 2014

Kilandros wrote: »

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm not going to post a video of me doing anything that cheesey... Everyone is my guild is not allowed to do it. Also I refuse to be a vampire.

I KNOW it is that easy.

Anyway

Keep Calm Troll On.

You in fact don't know because you've never done it. Call me a troll all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that when you were asked to put your money where your mouth is, you backed of saying you have nothing to prove and that you just KNOW.

Wow, truly persuasive!

Um, But I do know, I know someone personally who does it... SO, yes, I KNOW...

Keep Calm and Troll On

Kilandros · May 2014

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm not going to post a video of me doing anything that cheesey... Everyone is my guild is not allowed to do it. Also I refuse to be a vampire.

I KNOW it is that easy.

Anyway

Keep Calm Troll On.

You in fact don't know because you've never done it. Call me a troll all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that when you were asked to put your money where your mouth is, you backed of saying you have nothing to prove and that you just KNOW.

Wow, truly persuasive!

Um, But I do know, I know someone personally who does it... SO, yes, I KNOW...

Keep Calm and Troll On

Ah yes I'm sure you do are "personally" acquainted with someone who "knows" how to do it. Sorry anonymous internet guy, but you don't know. You don't know anything about this mechanic.

I can't even count anymore how many times someone has posted on some forum how even though they can't back up their statements, they just KNOW them to be true. Like them, you're absolutely full of it, dude. You might be getting a pass on it right now because the consensus is to agree that Vampires are outrageously OP, but you're still full of it, and you got called out on being full of it.

So please keep dazzling us with, like, all the stuff that you KNOW but are too busy to prove but it's, like, cool because you know all the other people are who are, like, totally reliable and stuff.

Syndy · May 2014

I got called out? I must have missed something?

Where/when did this happen, I told you what you needed to do to take advantage of the exploit. Yet you called me out? And I don't know what I am talking about?

You have yet to post ANY information saying it is NOT that easy...

Edit: Granted it is not that simple as just stacking Ult Reduction gear. (My original post was a troll, go figure)
- Roll a Sorc or DK - Use Ult Reduction passive
- Stage 4 Vamp
- Ult Reduction Gear
- Equip Sword and Board for extra LoLs

Kilandros · May 2014

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

I got called out? I must have missed something?

Where/when did this happen, I told you what you needed to do to take full advantage of the exploit. Yet you called me out? And I don't know what I am talking about?

You have yet to post ANY information saying it is NOT that easy...

I've actually tried. Have you? Oh right, you haven't. Based only on that information alone, I'm more equipped to have an intelligent discussion on the matter.

You literally said it was so easy it was simply a matter of reducing Ultimate cost. I asked you to post a video proving it was in fact simply a matter of reducing Ultimate cost and nothing else. So yes, you got called out. Once that happened you basically said "Nah, I don't actually know for a fact--but I know because I think I know, and that's good enough for me." Well, it isn't good enough for me.

Perhaps you should have toned down your initial response to my OP. I actually put a lot of effort into making my OP mature and reasonable. You didn't. You couldn't be bothered to engage me as a contemporary; you decided to try your hand at insulting me and hoped to leave it at that. You decided instead to call me a troll based only on the fact that you disagree with me. How immature are you? In what universe do you think that that's a reasonable response?

If you had any dignity you'd apologize for lashing out at me. You'd at least acknowledge the fact that you have no first-hand experience with Vampirism, and admit that said lack of experience limits--at least somewhat--your ability to discuss it.

Syndy · May 2014

If you have tried and cannot do it.

YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!

Still no proof on what I have said is incorrect.

I have yet to "Lash Out" at anyone bub...

The fact that I have leveled from VR1 to VR3 strictly from PvP and dealing with vampires more than merits my ability to discuss vampires.

Anyway, I'm out of this thread until you can give me some evidence that what I have said is indeed incorrect. Instead of saying, that "You have not tried it, so you don't know."

Don't have to try it to see gear and game, and then go to any of the numerous websites to create a build for it.

What you are saying is pretty much in essence is this... There is a pile of manure right there. You say it tastes good. I say no it doesn't. Your argument is based off me not knowing that manure tastes good because I have not tried it.

News flash, I don't have to try it to know that it tastes bad, I can make an educated guess, through research and common knowledge to KNOW it probably doesn't taste good.

Kilandros · May 2014

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

If you have tried and cannot do it.

YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!

Still no proof on what I have said is incorrect.

I have yet to "Lash Out" at anyone bub...

The fact that I have leveled from VR1 to VR3 strictly from PvP and dealing with vampires more than merits my ability to discuss vampires.

Anyway, I'm out of this thread until you can give me some evidence that what I have said is indeed incorrect. Instead of saying, that "You have not tried it, so you don't know."

Don't have to try it to see gear and game, and then go to any of the numerous websites to create a build for it.

What you are saying is pretty much in essence is this... There is a pile of manure right there. You say it tastes good. I say no it doesn't. Your argument is based off me not knowing that manure tastes good because I have not tried it.

News flash, I don't have to try it to know that it tastes bad, I can make an educated guess, through research and common knowledge to KNOW it probably doesn't taste good.

This truly is rich. You make a claim and then expect me to prove it for you? Unfortunately that isn't how it works. Your claim that it's as easy as reducing ones Ultimate costs is nothing but an unfounded guess made by a person who's never PvPed as a Vampire.

Let me repeat:

YOU HAVE NEVER PLAYED A VAMPIRE.

Yours is a guess but I disagree with you that it's an educated guess. I watch expert guilds run VR dungeons but I don't turn around and pretend that it's easy--that it's just a matter of putting 4 guys together. That's precisely what you're doing. You're conjecturing on some videos you've seen. You're conjecturing on the performance of players who are FAR SUPERIOR players than you.

But ok man, duck out. It's been a real eye opener. Btw I have some really insightful thoughts on how easy it is to play the piano I'd like to share with you. I've never played, but I've watched dozens of people play really well and it looks super easy so I just KNOW I'd be awesome at it.

Syndy · May 2014

WoW?

I made a claim, you said I was wrong...

And, yet another posts goes by, were you say I am wrong, but have no proof I am wrong....

My initial post is this:

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

You don't need to go very far for evidence of this. Take the Vampire situation, for example. According to people posting here, Vampirism is akin to Godliness. Yet if you gave most of these posters a VR10 Dragonknight with Stage 4 Rank 10 Vampirism, I suspect that very few if any of them could actually pull off what a few very, very skilled players are able to do with Vampirism. I know I can't. And I know others who can't, too.

Using Ult Reduction gear (BoE) easily obtainable with the help of just a few friends, and spamming Bat-Swarm and Mist Form is hard yo...

More breaking news at 10...

I say they only have to use 2 buttons, you go on to say I am wrong, but never say how or why I am wrong...

Keep on trying to bend this thread to your will, but you have to provide some kind of proof besides the "you haven't tried it"..... I have seen it with my own eyes the past 3 weeks everyday... I KNOW they only press 2 buttons... I KNOW because I have a RL friend that tried it...

I actually do play the piano, so I would be interested in any thoughts you have.

Edit:

You also post that I am assuming something by watching videos. Honestly I have yet to watch any vampire Ult video... I don't need to watch a video of it when i can just run to a keep under siege and see 5 people trying to do it.

mjmisita_ESO · May 2014

https://youtube.com/watch?v=jyZsIDSSGV4

This one is pretty good evidence. And he only uses 2 buttons. Most of the good ones will toss Immovable and DK Standard ult in there... You tell me how this is hard?

krees28b14_ESO · May 2014

Kilandros wrote: »

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm not going to post a video of me doing anything that cheesey... Everyone is my guild is not allowed to do it. Also I refuse to be a vampire.

I KNOW it is that easy.

Anyway

Keep Calm Troll On.

You in fact don't know because you've never done it. Call me a troll all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that when you were asked to put your money where your mouth is, you backed of saying you have nothing to prove and that you just KNOW.

Wow, truly persuasive!

So, you are attacking the player because he "knows" how easy it easy for vamps. Here is one, post of video of yourself and show us how hard, difficult and how much skill it takes to be a vampire and let the others be the judge of you. Go on, show us the skill you mention in a video. We are waiting.