Warning for Orgnum spammers

AnduinTryggva · July 2022

No bad intention but I have very little spare time and I have to really take care of how I spend it. I really want to emphasize that it is not meant as offence but due to the reason I've just mentioned:

I will put people who spam Orgnum on my ignore list so as not to get a match against them again.

This is not your fault as you just use what is given to you by the devs but again: I have so little time that I really do not want to waste my precious time with playing against a strategy that is almost impossible to defeat due to its design.

I take note of the players that I've put on my ignore list due to Orgnum spam. If the devs manage to tweak Orgnum such that spamming is not an infallible option any more I will unignore you.

Again this is not directed against you lot. Just a way to save me precious time.

redspecter23 · July 2022

I'm not sure that ignoring the player will stop them from coming up as an opponent if you queue. That would be interesting if it works that way though.

AnduinTryggva · July 2022

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'm not sure that ignoring the player will stop them from coming up as an opponent if you queue. That would be interesting if it works that way though.

It should work. I hope. Not because I don't want to play against them but because I hate that the chances to beat it are so slim that my trade-off "chances to win vs time investment in trying" is too bad with this kind of approach.

I can't imagine that ZOS pitches ppl against each other when putting ppl on ignore.

Oddemus · July 2022

I have no shame in admitting that I have conceded games where people were spamming Orgnum and I knew I was at a point where I would lose anyway.

Qrähe · July 2022

How to beat orgnum, grab the first power card or orgnum card. If you have the equivilant of 3 power, start spamming it first.

kevkj · July 2022

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'm not sure that ignoring the player will stop them from coming up as an opponent if you queue. That would be interesting if it works that way though.

It should work. I hope. Not because I don't want to play against them but because I hate that the chances to beat it are so slim that my trade-off "chances to win vs time investment in trying" is too bad with this kind of approach.

I can't imagine that ZOS pitches ppl against each other when putting ppl on ignore.

Just ignore all the good players and get rank 1

It doesn't work that way. Players you ignore can still be matched with you in any content (Dungeons, BGs and ToT). You just cannot communicate with each other in-game.

DinoZavr · July 2022

@AnduinTryggva, sorry to say this, but ignore list does not work the way you are thinking.
It simply prevents messages from blocked persons (direct via whispers, or indirect via group/zone chat).
it does not prevent matches (duels, BGs and card games).
Oh, sorry, @kevkj has already answered.

The_one_i_seek · July 2022

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

No bad intention but I have very little spare time and I have to really take care of how I spend it. I really want to emphasize that it is not meant as offence but due to the reason I've just mentioned:

I will put people who spam Orgnum on my ignore list so as not to get a match against them again.

This is not your fault as you just use what is given to you by the devs but again: I have so little time that I really do not want to waste my precious time with playing against a strategy that is almost impossible to defeat due to its design.

I take note of the players that I've put on my ignore list due to Orgnum spam. If the devs manage to tweak Orgnum such that spamming is not an infallible option any more I will unignore you.

Again this is not directed against you lot. Just a way to save me precious time.

it will not work i tested
if you ignore player you still can match with them

Heartrage · July 2022

The_one_i_seek wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

No bad intention but I have very little spare time and I have to really take care of how I spend it. I really want to emphasize that it is not meant as offence but due to the reason I've just mentioned:

I will put people who spam Orgnum on my ignore list so as not to get a match against them again.

This is not your fault as you just use what is given to you by the devs but again: I have so little time that I really do not want to waste my precious time with playing against a strategy that is almost impossible to defeat due to its design.

I take note of the players that I've put on my ignore list due to Orgnum spam. If the devs manage to tweak Orgnum such that spamming is not an infallible option any more I will unignore you.

Again this is not directed against you lot. Just a way to save me precious time.

it will not work i tested
if you ignore player you still can match with them

Makes sense, it would be too easy to ignore good players to get matches with players that make sub optimal choices and get easy rank points.

Vaoh · July 2022

I will say Orgnum’s is really frustrating.

I’ve been rank 1 and fluctuate between the ranks in the Top 10. What I’ve found is that for the most part, things are balanced even though very rarely you will have those games with incredibly bad luck.

However, two decks are what I refer to as “RNG decks”....
• Saint Pelin - If right off the bat someone gets the Armory, or Siege Weapon Volley, it immediately steers the game in their favor and can be almost impossible to recover from against a good player. Usually the best chance is buy pushing for Ansei, or a huge gold conversion to power through Duke of Crows+Hlaalu mid/late game, or using lots of Agents (if there’s no Psijic patron), and if none of those are an option then filling their deck with Rajhin curse cards. I have never lost a game where I got any of those cards in the first turn.
• Sorcerer-King Orgnum - The only deck I don’t like. This thing adds a significant amount of RNG to the match and oftentimes becomes a game of turning the patron or else you’ll lose for sure. And if Saint Pelins is there too, whoever gets a good power card first (like The Armory) at the start has an actual guaranteed win on their hands.

These things, especially Orgnum’s make ranked play unfun.

Best solution, allow each player to BAN one patron, before starting the process of selecting Patrons. I’d imagine Orgnum’s will be banned every single time.

AnduinTryggva · July 2022

Vaoh wrote: »

I will say Orgnum’s is really frustrating.

I’ve been rank 1 and fluctuate between the ranks in the Top 10. What I’ve found is that for the most part, things are balanced even though very rarely you will have those games with incredibly bad luck.

However, two decks are what I refer to as “RNG decks”....
• Saint Pelin - If right off the bat someone gets the Armory, or Siege Weapon Volley, it immediately steers the game in their favor and can be almost impossible to recover from against a good player. Usually the best chance is buy pushing for Ansei, or a huge gold conversion to power through Duke of Crows+Hlaalu mid/late game, or using lots of Agents (if there’s no Psijic patron), and if none of those are an option then filling their deck with Rajhin curse cards. I have never lost a game where I got any of those cards in the first turn.
• Sorcerer-King Orgnum - The only deck I don’t like. This thing adds a significant amount of RNG to the match and oftentimes becomes a game of turning the patron or else you’ll lose for sure. And if Saint Pelins is there too, whoever gets a good power card first (like The Armory) at the start has an actual guaranteed win on their hands.

These things, especially Orgnum’s make ranked play unfun.

Best solution, allow each player to BAN one patron, before starting the process of selecting Patrons. I’d imagine Orgnum’s will be banned every single time.

Actually I exactly proposed this a couple of days ago:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611047/add-patron-deselection-possibity#latest

Alongside also some modifications to Orgnum patron:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7648321#Comment_7648321

Hawkeye · July 2022

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

No bad intention but I have very little spare time and I have to really take care of how I spend it. I really want to emphasize that it is not meant as offence but due to the reason I've just mentioned:

I will put people who spam Orgnum on my ignore list so as not to get a match against them again.

This is not your fault as you just use what is given to you by the devs but again: I have so little time that I really do not want to waste my precious time with playing against a strategy that is almost impossible to defeat due to its design.

I take note of the players that I've put on my ignore list due to Orgnum spam. If the devs manage to tweak Orgnum such that spamming is not an infallible option any more I will unignore you.

Again this is not directed against you lot. Just a way to save me precious time.

First, I would say don't play if you can't play against someone using that deck. Second the deck is awesome if not spammed. But even if it is who cares? You win or you lose. People just need to get past this deck and just play the game for crying out loud.

Jofish · July 2022

Hawkeye wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

No bad intention but I have very little spare time and I have to really take care of how I spend it. I really want to emphasize that it is not meant as offence but due to the reason I've just mentioned:

I will put people who spam Orgnum on my ignore list so as not to get a match against them again.

This is not your fault as you just use what is given to you by the devs but again: I have so little time that I really do not want to waste my precious time with playing against a strategy that is almost impossible to defeat due to its design.

I take note of the players that I've put on my ignore list due to Orgnum spam. If the devs manage to tweak Orgnum such that spamming is not an infallible option any more I will unignore you.

Again this is not directed against you lot. Just a way to save me precious time.

First, I would say don't play if you can't play against someone using that deck. Second the deck is awesome if not spammed. But even if it is who cares? You win or you lose. People just need to get past this deck and just play the game for crying out loud.

Learn how to play the deck.

Hawkeye · July 2022

w

Jofish wrote: »

Hawkeye wrote: »

First, I would say don't play if you can't play against someone using that deck. Second the deck is awesome if not spammed. But even if it is who cares? You win or you lose. People just need to get past this deck and just play the game for crying out loud.

Learn how to play the deck.

You must have mixed up with someone else. I love the deck, I use it all the time. /shrug

Ardan147 · July 2022

Spamming Orgnum is basically telling your opponent "I know I'm an awful player who would have no chance of winning if skill was actually involved so I'm reducing this to a coin flip and hoping I get lucky."

kmfdm · July 2022

Particularly weird sort of players are those who start spamming patron before they reach 12 cards in their decks and believe that 1 power per turn is more than 2. Anyway, it isn't that hard to beat Orgnum, it's not overpowered, it just speeds up the game massively and you have to adopt to it. Eagle with deck thinning is an especially powerful counter strategy.

Shanee · July 2022

Uhm, I'm a bit confused with this topic...

So you're telling me that I can put the other 99 top 100 ToT players on ignore and go against players who haven't reached top 100 yet, basically making me a war machine always stomping on the lower ranks. I'm not sure how this idea ever came about

Interesting - I think I will personally continue spamming this patron if I can get a really good early game hand, why would I want to force a match to last 10-30 minutes when I could win/lose it in 3-5 minutes off patron spamming? Shorter games are better for saving time, if I only had an hour I'd prefer to play more than 2 or 3 games of ToT.

Some luck with combo's and a large card collection should be able to beat the patron spamming anyway. Crow cards can counter the patron spam if you're able to build up a good enough combo to turn coins->power

---

Edit: Just played Orgnum and the opponent used it for spamming, countered it pretty well with a crow build, with a bit of luck it's easily doable, the spammer is usually left with a lot of coins in their deck causing them to have terrible draws and only able to spam the patron, where as your combos will out perform the patron spamming.

Destroyed the majority of my cards leaving me with 1 writ and a couple starting cards, leaving me with only cards which combo giving me high coins, high power & a couple combos to take away their prestige & cause them to waste power on taking out my tank cards.

Tuonra2 · July 2022

Orgnum is indeed taking away the "balance" of the game in the sense that good luck and bad luck cancel out over long games w/ many choices. W/ Orgnum if you need to make choice after turn 3 you are losing

redspecter23 · July 2022

Tuonra2 wrote: »

Orgnum is indeed taking away the "balance" of the game in the sense that good luck and bad luck cancel out over long games w/ many choices. W/ Orgnum if you need to make choice after turn 3 you are losing

I would agree that's the exact problem with Orgnum and why many consider it a "coin flip" patron. Your rng is whether or not you go first or second and if there is a power generating card in the tavern you can buy. If you win those two "coin flips" you can remove a lot of the remaining RNG of the game by just flipping the patron every turn. That's the real overpowered aspect. You only have to play that RNG lottery twice in the first couple turns of the game and then you either go off and win a high percentage of the time or maybe your opponent does if they won those "coin flips". Either way, it tends to be fast at least.

AnduinTryggva · July 2022

Shanee wrote: »

Uhm, I'm a bit confused with this topic...

So you're telling me that I can put the other 99 top 100 ToT players on ignore and go against players who haven't reached top 100 yet, basically making me a war machine always stomping on the lower ranks. I'm not sure how this idea ever came about

Interesting - I think I will personally continue spamming this patron if I can get a really good early game hand, why would I want to force a match to last 10-30 minutes when I could win/lose it in 3-5 minutes off patron spamming? Shorter games are better for saving time, if I only had an hour I'd prefer to play more than 2 or 3 games of ToT.

Some luck with combo's and a large card collection should be able to beat the patron spamming anyway. Crow cards can counter the patron spam if you're able to build up a good enough combo to turn coins->power

---

Edit: Just played Orgnum and the opponent used it for spamming, countered it pretty well with a crow build, with a bit of luck it's easily doable, the spammer is usually left with a lot of coins in their deck causing them to have terrible draws and only able to spam the patron, where as your combos will out perform the patron spamming.

Destroyed the majority of my cards leaving me with 1 writ and a couple starting cards, leaving me with only cards which combo giving me high coins, high power & a couple combos to take away their prestige & cause them to waste power on taking out my tank cards.

Well, I just realisized that anyway it is not possible to avoid pitches against players on my ignore list so this is not working anyway. My intention was not to find a way of exploiting a game feature for increasing my rank and it is good that you folks pointed out to this (if it actually would work). It never occured to me to use that to this end - I am probably just too naive to imagine using such mechanics for tweaking game mechanics to my favor. Anyhow I never would use it anyway as I like winning the real way and not by cheating. Cheating so little fun. Also I don't need the transmutation gems I am always hovering around 900 and can't use them quick enough (I don't use it often).

Anyway now as I know how this could be used for cheating I am glad that it does not work.

I also have won against Orgnum spammers but I still think it needs to be tweaked. I've suggested to modify the costs of using the patron depending on the status of the patron (favored players should pay at least one gold more than unfavored players). This would still allow spamming but would force the spammer more to make a decision whether to spam or buy cards while this decision is less strong for players who have to fight spam.

Sly80 · July 2022

If my opponent selects Orgnum, and I get the chance, I pick Rajhin: Chaos ensues...

Shanee · July 2022

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I also have won against Orgnum spammers but I still think it needs to be tweaked. I've suggested to modify the costs of using the patron depending on the status of the patron (favored players should pay at least one gold more than unfavored players). This would still allow spamming but would force the spammer more to make a decision whether to spam or buy cards while this decision is less strong for players who have to fight spam.

I think a nerf on it could work quite well, I wouldn't be too opposed too that.

Perhaps raising the number of cards it is based on - I believe if neutral you get 1 power for every 6 and 1 power for every 4 when it is favoring you - So to get the power from it you'd need to at least get into mid-game and have a decent deck built up... That way if you only buy 2 or 3 cards and start spamming it, you'd only be feeding the other person power and getting none yourself.

Not too sure if making it cost an extra gold would all be worth it - I always usually have spare gold after using the patron, so that +1 gold cost would still allow me to spam with the same effect.

Perhaps we'll see some new decks to collect which hard counter Orgnum - A deck which has a card with the ability to destroy an opponents card could be quite interesting against Orgnum

RealLoveBVB · July 2022

kmfdm wrote: »

Anyway, it isn't that hard to beat Orgnum, it's not overpowered[...]

When I play against a npc and he is using orgnum, then I try to not use the patron myself and find strategies to counter play him. No matter what I do, as soon as he spams orgnum (sometimes even on his 2nd turn already) I lose 9/10 matches against him.

So players want to tell me, that when I lose against a npc that often, that orgnum is easy to counter and is NOT overpowered?!

A single patron shouldn't dominate the whole match.

Besides that, it always needs luck on tavern cards to build a counter deck.

Vaoh · July 2022

Yeah this has gotten really frustrating. I’ve gone from rank 4 to rank 26, because I’ve faced three different players in a row picking Orgnum’s + Saint Pelin, which is an extremely rng dependent match up.

Once I get in the Top 2% reward I’m never pushing the leaderboard again