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What justifies cloak not having a built in drawback?
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DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
I can't kill a target while I'm in shadowy disguise. A DK can kill me relentlessly with wings activated, which also throws fireballs at me if I'm trying to attack back on a ranged character. Not that it matters. They don't run them anymore because they don't need to, despite still being very useful.
There really is no skill like shadowy disguise. Every other defense skill allows you to attack while using it. With shadowy you're either preparing to attack, fleeing for life, or sneaking into a location like a keep. The moment I make contact with any target I'm revealed.
Not to mention half the time I'm revealed by a pot or skill I don't even know it because the eye bugs out.I drink and I stream things.2 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Remove all counters to cloak, then they can start putting in limitation like for example with streak.
PC EU
PvP only6 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.Edited by Amottica on 27 March 2022 03:303 -
Thecompton73✭✭✭✭✭Imagine if you could pop a potion that shut off Sorc shields anytime they got within 20M or a skill that would turn them off if you were within 10-12m. That's the real equivalent to what happens when people use the hard counters to cloak.8 -
GarfieId✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.0 -
GarfieId✭TheEndBringer wrote: »There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
I can't kill a target while I'm in shadowy disguise. A DK can kill me relentlessly with wings activated, which also throws fireballs at me if I'm trying to attack back on a ranged character. Not that it matters. They don't run them anymore because they don't need to, despite still being very useful.
There really is no skill like shadowy disguise. Every other defense skill allows you to attack while using it. With shadowy you're either preparing to attack, fleeing for life, or sneaking into a location like a keep. The moment I make contact with any target I'm revealed.
Not to mention half the time I'm revealed by a pot or skill I don't even know it because the eye bugs out.
I'm talking about old wings, by the time you cast it you would've absorb 2 of the 3 projectiles (LA + projectile). Wings in the countering ranged damage department while sounds good still seems pretty bad, a friend of mine put them on one day and just got blown up by 2 sorcs instantly, which is funny because no one wanted to run crushing and now everyone does.
Also the whole idea of it being defensive and similar to a DK is cloak will dodge all projectiles while wings would only reflect 3, so in, as I've said before, in countering ranged damage they are both very similar.
And once again just to say this, I don't think cloak needs a nerf by any means.1 -
Finedaible✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭My advice to anyone still calling for nerfs to NB cloak in 2022 is to try on Nightblades' shoes for once. I guarantee that if you at least try to play Nightblade in PvP right now, you will immediately know how weak cloak really is. There's abilities, cp perks, armor sets, poisons, and passives galore which all hinder or negate cloak and stealth; not to mention the stupid amounts of unjustified nerfs ZoS keeps dealing out to NBs each year... Heck, cloak doesn't even have a purge like back when the game was good.4 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
3 -
OWLTHEMAD✭✭✭✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
Im on the pro cloak team but there is technically an offensive aspect in that there is a guaranteed crit on next strike. Its not a straight up damage ability but it IS built for setting up damage.0 -
GarfieId✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
I don't know how many times I've said this, but they do in countering ranged attacks, if you don't know cloak will make all projectiles coming at the NB miss, wings will reflect projectiles, both can counter ranged attack.
What's hard to understand about this? I don't know why you think I'm talking about offensive power, I've said many times I'm talking about it's defensive power.
So they are similar in that they both offer defense to ranged attacks, maybe you're blinded by your bias to your class or whatever.0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
I don't know how many times I've said this, but they do in countering ranged attacks, if you don't know cloak will make all projectiles coming at the NB miss, wings will reflect projectiles, both can counter ranged attack.
What's hard to understand about this? I don't know why you think I'm talking about offensive power, I've said many times I'm talking about it's defensive power.
So they are similar in that they both offer defense to ranged attacks, maybe you're blinded by your bias to your class or whatever.
I'm surprised we're still going on about this comparison because it's a stretch. The only thing they have in common is how much people have complained about them. 🙃
Cloak does not reflect projectiles. It essentially acts like a 3 second dodge. DK Wings absorbs them, as does the warden shield.
Cloak does reflect back attacks. Wings do. It is an offensive and defensive skill at once. Cloak is a defensive and positioning skill.
You cannot attack while cloaked. Doing so pulls you out. With wings absorbing and reflecting back damage, they are also free to use their normal rotation.
Cloak's passive crit guarantee is not an active component of the skill and often fails due to server lag. On your screen you hit an attack within 3 seconds but the server reports otherwise.
Cloaks passive major resolve for a big whopping 6 seconds in medium or light. In that instance it's not even a very good defensive buff.
Cloak either let's you set up your attack, get passed omniscient guards or offers a last ditch chance to escape getting run down. All for a skill that lasts only 3 seconds.I drink and I stream things.1 -
GarfieId✭TheEndBringer wrote: »There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
I don't know how many times I've said this, but they do in countering ranged attacks, if you don't know cloak will make all projectiles coming at the NB miss, wings will reflect projectiles, both can counter ranged attack.
What's hard to understand about this? I don't know why you think I'm talking about offensive power, I've said many times I'm talking about it's defensive power.
So they are similar in that they both offer defense to ranged attacks, maybe you're blinded by your bias to your class or whatever.
I'm surprised we're still going on about this comparison because it's a stretch. The only thing they have in common is how much people have complained about them. 🙃
Cloak does not reflect projectiles. It essentially acts like a 3 second dodge. DK Wings absorbs them, as does the warden shield.
Cloak does reflect back attacks. Wings do. It is an offensive and defensive skill at once. Cloak is a defensive and positioning skill.
You cannot attack while cloaked. Doing so pulls you out. With wings absorbing and reflecting back damage, they are also free to use their normal rotation.
Cloak's passive crit guarantee is not an active component of the skill and often fails due to server lag. On your screen you hit an attack within 3 seconds but the server reports otherwise.
Cloaks passive major resolve for a big whopping 6 seconds in medium or light. In that instance it's not even a very good defensive buff.
Cloak either let's you set up your attack, get passed omniscient guards or offers a last ditch chance to escape getting run down. All for a skill that lasts only 3 seconds.
Once again, I'm taking about defense, and first of all I'm not complaining about it, I think cloak is balanced as is. I'm taking about how people are saying that people have to slot abilities to kill DKs with wings then say the same for cloak, and once again I'm talking about OLD wings (did you even read anything I posted?) back then cloak was a much better skill for dealing with ranged defense compared to old wings, a comparison someone made fairly saying there was skills you can slot to counter wings.
Then the NB main band wagon cannot comprehend their own abilities and how they function to say it's not a fair comparison to wings from a defensive stand point, just go off on a rant about how cloak is bad and wings is overpowered. The fact you didn't even read it to see I'm talking about old wings goes to show that you'll jump on anything to defend your mediocre ability.
And again, I never even said it needed a nerf, just something you are thinking up in your own head. I was merely pointing out a fact.
1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
I don't know how many times I've said this, but they do in countering ranged attacks, if you don't know cloak will make all projectiles coming at the NB miss, wings will reflect projectiles, both can counter ranged attack.
What's hard to understand about this? I don't know why you think I'm talking about offensive power, I've said many times I'm talking about it's defensive power.
So they are similar in that they both offer defense to ranged attacks, maybe you're blinded by your bias to your class or whatever.
Do not know where this is coming from as I already noted cloak has a defensive aspect and that DK wings has a defensive aspect but worked in an extremely different manner that makes the skills extremely different.
Beyond that minor similarity, we have noted the major differences which make it so the two skills are not very comparable. That one skill can be negated and rendered useless is the slam dunk solid fact that puts these two skills in very different camps. So I am clearly not blinded by anything.
You are entitled to your opinion and I think you for sharing it. Have a good day.0 -
Veinblood1965✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What skill is it that NB's use to actually cloak for extended periods of time?0 -
Thecompton73✭✭✭✭✭Veinblood1965 wrote: »What skill is it that NB's use to actually cloak for extended periods of time?
None, it's only 3 seconds per cast. To go longer you have to recast again and again. Mnb can spam it a ton but Snb gets about 3-4 before running out of magic. More often than not the first cast doesn't take so when trying to disengage you have to hit it twice back to back to actually disappear.
Invisibility potions last much longer but if you pop one and get pulled out of invisiblity right away it's wasted.0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Well, there are some pretty obvious hard counters, but I think the most obvious answer is Sorc Tears.
In my opinion, it is the strongest open world tool in Cyro, but I dont think its changing. It is certainly as deserving of a stack cost as streak, but dont think that is happening at this point.
its tough because technically mana cost is the downside to many mana abilities. If you need to use a stack cost mechanic to balance it out, then 9/10 times the mana cost for the spell is incorrectly designed.
Lot's of things in ESO have these sort of bandaids that don't necessary solve the main issue at hand.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheEndBringer wrote: »
If you add a ramping cost, then what are you giving back? Because doing so severely limits the class. Every character should be running a detect skill. Every character can slot detect pots which work even better.
Every character should should be running a detect skill? No. That is not well designed counter play. That is a band aid solution to crutched mechanic. Slotting a skill to counter another specific skill is something that is not done throughout the whole rest of the game.
And slotting a detect pot on a stam toon is ridiculous. They have to gimp their sustain for 45 seconds for 15 secs of being able to see a nb? At least make stam reco pots with reveal.
Use camo hunter then, you get some passive stats back by slotting it too. There's so many suggestions in this thread already for countering a skill that actually does have a major drawback: without it the class is currently gimped tremendously and lacking behind others.Edited by Jaimeh on 28 March 2022 07:230 -
GarfieId✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
I don't know how many times I've said this, but they do in countering ranged attacks, if you don't know cloak will make all projectiles coming at the NB miss, wings will reflect projectiles, both can counter ranged attack.
What's hard to understand about this? I don't know why you think I'm talking about offensive power, I've said many times I'm talking about it's defensive power.
So they are similar in that they both offer defense to ranged attacks, maybe you're blinded by your bias to your class or whatever.
Do not know where this is coming from as I already noted cloak has a defensive aspect and that DK wings has a defensive aspect but worked in an extremely different manner that makes the skills extremely different.
Beyond that minor similarity, we have noted the major differences which make it so the two skills are not very comparable. That one skill can be negated and rendered useless is the slam dunk solid fact that puts these two skills in very different camps. So I am clearly not blinded by anything.
You are entitled to your opinion and I think you for sharing it. Have a good day.
The only main difference is that cloak makes you invis, they work in very similar ways as previously stated with regards to ranged attacks. Once again I don't think you understand how cloak works with projectiles.
I mean at this stage it's hopeless trying to explain it to you, clearly blinded by your favorite class. I've laid everything out to you and given you examples but you still cannot understand, maybe I can try explain it in a different way;
3 sorc la weave frags, 6 projectiles, wings reflects 3, hit by other 3, nb dodge all 6.
I mean at this point I don't see how it can get much clearer, failing to accept this fact just goes to show a lack of any understanding of cloak and how to utilize it to it's fullest potential.
And once again the "slot one ability to counter" applies to DK as well, plenty of ways to kill them with wings up for ranged characters, all you've got to do is slot the ability. Even in melee matchups, wings is a dead skill, cloak will still dodge dswing.
Once again NBs failing to understand their kit, blinded by the "my class is bad!" response. This is fact not opinion, all you've got to do is go test it. I really can't make it any easier to explain.
1 -
wheresbes✭✭✭✭Oh no, this again. We have threads like this every week. NBs are meh both in PVP and PVE, leave them be, please.
I'd add that it's a pity that detect is attached to such useful skills, you want to slot one of them anyway, and there you also get your detect ability. I would make so that detect skills are separated from useful passives so, if someone chooses to slot one, they actually have to make a decision.
Besides, if you just swing your axe or whatever in front of you, there you go your free detection tool.1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
I don't know how many times I've said this, but they do in countering ranged attacks, if you don't know cloak will make all projectiles coming at the NB miss, wings will reflect projectiles, both can counter ranged attack.
What's hard to understand about this? I don't know why you think I'm talking about offensive power, I've said many times I'm talking about it's defensive power.
So they are similar in that they both offer defense to ranged attacks, maybe you're blinded by your bias to your class or whatever.
Do not know where this is coming from as I already noted cloak has a defensive aspect and that DK wings has a defensive aspect but worked in an extremely different manner that makes the skills extremely different.
Beyond that minor similarity, we have noted the major differences which make it so the two skills are not very comparable. That one skill can be negated and rendered useless is the slam dunk solid fact that puts these two skills in very different camps. So I am clearly not blinded by anything.
You are entitled to your opinion and I think you for sharing it. Have a good day.
The only main difference is that cloak makes you invis, they work in very similar ways as previously stated with regards to ranged attacks. Once again I don't think you understand how cloak works with projectiles.
I mean at this stage it's hopeless trying to explain it to you, clearly blinded by your favorite class. I've laid everything out to you and given you examples but you still cannot understand, maybe I can try explain it in a different way;
3 sorc la weave frags, 6 projectiles, wings reflects 3, hit by other 3, nb dodge all 6.
I mean at this point I don't see how it can get much clearer, failing to accept this fact just goes to show a lack of any understanding of cloak and how to utilize it to it's fullest potential.
And once again the "slot one ability to counter" applies to DK as well, plenty of ways to kill them with wings up for ranged characters, all you've got to do is slot the ability. Even in melee matchups, wings is a dead skill, cloak will still dodge dswing.
Once again NBs failing to understand their kit, blinded by the "my class is bad!" response. This is fact not opinion, all you've got to do is go test it. I really can't make it any easier to explain.
Please show a video of a NB using cloak to reflect a damaging skill, including any stun, knockdown and DoT, back to the attacker and explain what skills prevented the DK from even activating wings. Then we can say the only major difference between the two skills is one makes the NB invisible.
I look forward to such proof which will demonstrate that invisibility is the main difference between the skills. Until then, have a good day.1 -
GarfieId✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
I don't know how many times I've said this, but they do in countering ranged attacks, if you don't know cloak will make all projectiles coming at the NB miss, wings will reflect projectiles, both can counter ranged attack.
What's hard to understand about this? I don't know why you think I'm talking about offensive power, I've said many times I'm talking about it's defensive power.
So they are similar in that they both offer defense to ranged attacks, maybe you're blinded by your bias to your class or whatever.
Do not know where this is coming from as I already noted cloak has a defensive aspect and that DK wings has a defensive aspect but worked in an extremely different manner that makes the skills extremely different.
Beyond that minor similarity, we have noted the major differences which make it so the two skills are not very comparable. That one skill can be negated and rendered useless is the slam dunk solid fact that puts these two skills in very different camps. So I am clearly not blinded by anything.
You are entitled to your opinion and I think you for sharing it. Have a good day.
The only main difference is that cloak makes you invis, they work in very similar ways as previously stated with regards to ranged attacks. Once again I don't think you understand how cloak works with projectiles.
I mean at this stage it's hopeless trying to explain it to you, clearly blinded by your favorite class. I've laid everything out to you and given you examples but you still cannot understand, maybe I can try explain it in a different way;
3 sorc la weave frags, 6 projectiles, wings reflects 3, hit by other 3, nb dodge all 6.
I mean at this point I don't see how it can get much clearer, failing to accept this fact just goes to show a lack of any understanding of cloak and how to utilize it to it's fullest potential.
And once again the "slot one ability to counter" applies to DK as well, plenty of ways to kill them with wings up for ranged characters, all you've got to do is slot the ability. Even in melee matchups, wings is a dead skill, cloak will still dodge dswing.
Once again NBs failing to understand their kit, blinded by the "my class is bad!" response. This is fact not opinion, all you've got to do is go test it. I really can't make it any easier to explain.
Please show a video of a NB using cloak to reflect a damaging skill, including any stun, knockdown and DoT, back to the attacker and explain what skills prevented the DK from even activating wings. Then we can say the only major difference between the two skills is one makes the NB invisible.
I look forward to such proof which will demonstrate that invisibility is the main difference between the skills. Until then, have a good day.
Completely missing the point, why are you talking about reflects? You're thinking is all wrong, total damage mitigated is the name of the game not reflect, you know it's defensive ability... as previously stated projectiles miss hence 100% damage mitigation from projectiles, nbs can dodge stuns too (stun projectiles are a thing!?) just like flame clench (and to my knowledge now toppling charge) so yes they can avoid stuns.
I've told you how to test (who knows I could edit the video!!) as for skills to stop DK from using wings, stuns like rune cage, turn evil, mass hysteria, toppling charge, leap etc.. and also negates.
You clearly do not know how to use cloak so maybe go test a bit and then make comments on it when you understand all of it's potential.
Either way as I've said many times there's no reason for it to be nerfed it's perfectly fine as is, (maybe minor expedition would be nice, rare buff few classes have access to but maybe too strong with RAT)1 -
PuddingZebra✭✭✭This age old argument..
people keep comparing cloak to streak.
Yet streak doesnt nullify DoTs, nor does it nullify mid-air projectiles or cause queued up attacks to miss. Streak doesnt break LoS (unless streaking around a tree. but at that point walking does the same. blame the tree.)
Cloak makes a nightblade's escape way too easy. Its easily counterable if you're willing to run OBJECTIVELY inferior skills or potions to hard-counter it. Because if you don't, it's just frustrating to deal with.
Not impossible, and often very easy. but like OP said, it forces the burden on the victim. nightblades are extremely slippery as-is. Shade being even stonger than cloak or streak combined. but it has a learning curve. it rewards map knowledge. it rewards awareness and uptime management.
Cloak is just a free "eh i messed up so lemme just vanish" button.
If you get caught by jabs as a medium armor cloak user... then YOU are doing something wrong. (and you're not running shade.)
Either make the magelight/hunter/flare skills free (or close to free) to cast, or make it so that nightblades need to THINK about using cloak rather than it being so free.
Magelight costs almost 50% more than that of cloak (5130 Magicka for magelight vs 3780 Magicka for cloak)
Magelight also has VERY limited range, low uptime and the reveal portion is easily counterable with 1-2 dodgerolls.
in my opinion, stealth should have 3 sources: sneak, vampire sprint stealth and invis potions.
Then its balanced. you use an inferior potion to engage or escape a situation, I use an inferior potion to counter that.You see, I am a Pink Flying Pudding Zebra.3 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
I don't know how many times I've said this, but they do in countering ranged attacks, if you don't know cloak will make all projectiles coming at the NB miss, wings will reflect projectiles, both can counter ranged attack.
What's hard to understand about this? I don't know why you think I'm talking about offensive power, I've said many times I'm talking about it's defensive power.
So they are similar in that they both offer defense to ranged attacks, maybe you're blinded by your bias to your class or whatever.
Do not know where this is coming from as I already noted cloak has a defensive aspect and that DK wings has a defensive aspect but worked in an extremely different manner that makes the skills extremely different.
Beyond that minor similarity, we have noted the major differences which make it so the two skills are not very comparable. That one skill can be negated and rendered useless is the slam dunk solid fact that puts these two skills in very different camps. So I am clearly not blinded by anything.
You are entitled to your opinion and I think you for sharing it. Have a good day.
The only main difference is that cloak makes you invis, they work in very similar ways as previously stated with regards to ranged attacks. Once again I don't think you understand how cloak works with projectiles.
I mean at this stage it's hopeless trying to explain it to you, clearly blinded by your favorite class. I've laid everything out to you and given you examples but you still cannot understand, maybe I can try explain it in a different way;
3 sorc la weave frags, 6 projectiles, wings reflects 3, hit by other 3, nb dodge all 6.
I mean at this point I don't see how it can get much clearer, failing to accept this fact just goes to show a lack of any understanding of cloak and how to utilize it to it's fullest potential.
And once again the "slot one ability to counter" applies to DK as well, plenty of ways to kill them with wings up for ranged characters, all you've got to do is slot the ability. Even in melee matchups, wings is a dead skill, cloak will still dodge dswing.
Once again NBs failing to understand their kit, blinded by the "my class is bad!" response. This is fact not opinion, all you've got to do is go test it. I really can't make it any easier to explain.
Please show a video of a NB using cloak to reflect a damaging skill, including any stun, knockdown and DoT, back to the attacker and explain what skills prevented the DK from even activating wings. Then we can say the only major difference between the two skills is one makes the NB invisible.
I look forward to such proof which will demonstrate that invisibility is the main difference between the skills. Until then, have a good day.
Completely missing the point, why are you talking about reflects? You're thinking is all wrong, total damage mitigated is the name of the game not reflect, you know it's defensive ability... as previously stated projectiles miss hence 100% damage mitigation from projectiles, nbs can dodge stuns too (stun projectiles are a thing!?) just like flame clench (and to my knowledge now toppling charge) so yes they can avoid stuns.
I've told you how to test (who knows I could edit the video!!) as for skills to stop DK from using wings, stuns like rune cage, turn evil, mass hysteria, toppling charge, leap etc.. and also negates.
You clearly do not know how to use cloak so maybe go test a bit and then make comments on it when you understand all of it's potential.
Either way as I've said many times there's no reason for it to be nerfed it's perfectly fine as is, (maybe minor expedition would be nice, rare buff few classes have access to but maybe too strong with RAT)
I didn’t miss any point. Also, I mentioned reflect since that was a major aspect of the DK wings. A very major aspect and there were no counters to force the cessation of wings or the reflect or prevent the DK from using the skill.
This is part of the factual information I have provided that prove conclusively that the former design of the DK wings is more different than it is similar to NB cloak.
Please stop suggesting we don’t know what we are talking about to try to discredit us. I work to keep my replies to the facts instead of attacking the person.
Edited by Amottica on 28 March 2022 17:281 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »A couple of points on this topic:
1) I think the OP’s premise that strong defensive skills should have a drawback isn’t necessarily a fair one from the comparisons provided. Firstly, dodge and block are core skills rather than slottable skills and all players always have access to them. As such I don’t think they are something that should be used when benchmarking slottable skills as they don’t compete against them. Which then leaves us with the question of whether strong defensive skills should have always drawbacks. The OP highlights that streak and mist form do and as such so should cloak, but what about other skills? There are a whole lot of other defensive skills that given the right circumstances can be very strong. Should these all get drawbacks to just because a couple of skills do? Where do you draw the line? Rather I think we need to look at skills individually to determine if they need one rather than simply follow logic of “it’s a strong defensive skill so we must give it a drawback”
2) All that said, while cloak may not have a direct drawback, it does suffer from several indirect drawbacks. As already highlighted by others it has several hard counters, some of which outright disable the skill from being used. Which isn’t something other defensive skills suffer from (outside of the global unique case of getting negated). So you have a drawback of having potentially a dead skill slot, which is an opportunity cost. The other subtle drawback of cloak it has the potential have no defensive benefit at all, depending on the opponents actions, so you can spend magicka for nothing. And I’m not talking about the cases when the opponent uses a direct counter like magelight, because at least then you have also cost the opponent resources. Rather, if your opponent plays as in a way as described by @Oreyn_Bearclaw with good use of AoE. In these cases, if you use cloak and they predict it and do something like jabs or spin to win, cloak gives you no benefit at all. In basically all other defensive skill cases, even if the opponent uses the right counter for your skill you at least get something: ie you use streak and they follow with either speed or a gap closer, at least you still deal damage, potentially stun and get the movement. Sure you may not have escaped but you still got something.
3) Where I will agree with the OP is that cloak is somewhat unique in that unlike most skills it much puts the onus on the opposing player to counter it. It forces them to do something different. But I disagree that this is a bad thing, rather I think it makes the game more involved and interesting. I understand that some players may not like this as they want to play their build in the way they want and not have to adapt/react/change play style as much as cloak forces them to do, but I like that challenge.
So all that said, I guess no I don’t think cloak really needs a specific direct drawback above and beyond how it already integrates into the game.
If you are referring to magelight/cameo hunter, flare or detect pot; They are all horrible counters as I've experience multiple players going invisible right in front of me after I detected them and than they vanished right in front of me while the skill was still active and for the skills that stun it did nothing.
Here are two solutions I have to fix these issues.
1) All forms that detect automatically stun the invisible / stealth target for 5 seconds that the player cannot break free from regardless of CP or gear sets equipped.
2) The NB cannot go back into stealth for 5 seconds after being detected (the NB ability is greyed out) and while the player is looking at the NB and has the skill still active or refreshes the skill the NB cannot go back to stealth until the other player loses site of them.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »A couple of points on this topic:
1) I think the OP’s premise that strong defensive skills should have a drawback isn’t necessarily a fair one from the comparisons provided. Firstly, dodge and block are core skills rather than slottable skills and all players always have access to them. As such I don’t think they are something that should be used when benchmarking slottable skills as they don’t compete against them. Which then leaves us with the question of whether strong defensive skills should have always drawbacks. The OP highlights that streak and mist form do and as such so should cloak, but what about other skills? There are a whole lot of other defensive skills that given the right circumstances can be very strong. Should these all get drawbacks to just because a couple of skills do? Where do you draw the line? Rather I think we need to look at skills individually to determine if they need one rather than simply follow logic of “it’s a strong defensive skill so we must give it a drawback”
2) All that said, while cloak may not have a direct drawback, it does suffer from several indirect drawbacks. As already highlighted by others it has several hard counters, some of which outright disable the skill from being used. Which isn’t something other defensive skills suffer from (outside of the global unique case of getting negated). So you have a drawback of having potentially a dead skill slot, which is an opportunity cost. The other subtle drawback of cloak it has the potential have no defensive benefit at all, depending on the opponents actions, so you can spend magicka for nothing. And I’m not talking about the cases when the opponent uses a direct counter like magelight, because at least then you have also cost the opponent resources. Rather, if your opponent plays as in a way as described by @Oreyn_Bearclaw with good use of AoE. In these cases, if you use cloak and they predict it and do something like jabs or spin to win, cloak gives you no benefit at all. In basically all other defensive skill cases, even if the opponent uses the right counter for your skill you at least get something: ie you use streak and they follow with either speed or a gap closer, at least you still deal damage, potentially stun and get the movement. Sure you may not have escaped but you still got something.
3) Where I will agree with the OP is that cloak is somewhat unique in that unlike most skills it much puts the onus on the opposing player to counter it. It forces them to do something different. But I disagree that this is a bad thing, rather I think it makes the game more involved and interesting. I understand that some players may not like this as they want to play their build in the way they want and not have to adapt/react/change play style as much as cloak forces them to do, but I like that challenge.
So all that said, I guess no I don’t think cloak really needs a specific direct drawback above and beyond how it already integrates into the game.
If you are referring to magelight/cameo hunter, flare or detect pot; They are all horrible counters as I've experience multiple players going invisible right in front of me after I detected them and than they vanished right in front of me while the skill was still active and for the skills that stun it did nothing.
Here are two solutions I have to fix these issues.
1) All forms that detect automatically stun the invisible / stealth target for 5 seconds that the player cannot break free from regardless of CP or gear sets equipped.
2) The NB cannot go back into stealth for 5 seconds after being detected (the NB ability is greyed out) and while the player is looking at the NB and has the skill still active or refreshes the skill the NB cannot go back to stealth until the other player loses site of them.
#1 would be an automatic death sentence. Are you even serious? a 5 second stun that cannot be broken free from for simply popping someone out of stealth? That is absurd. They would be dead every time to any player with a heartbeat.
These counters work just fine as is. Sure, lag and desyncs do happen, but we cant balance the game around them.2 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »A couple of points on this topic:
1) I think the OP’s premise that strong defensive skills should have a drawback isn’t necessarily a fair one from the comparisons provided. Firstly, dodge and block are core skills rather than slottable skills and all players always have access to them. As such I don’t think they are something that should be used when benchmarking slottable skills as they don’t compete against them. Which then leaves us with the question of whether strong defensive skills should have always drawbacks. The OP highlights that streak and mist form do and as such so should cloak, but what about other skills? There are a whole lot of other defensive skills that given the right circumstances can be very strong. Should these all get drawbacks to just because a couple of skills do? Where do you draw the line? Rather I think we need to look at skills individually to determine if they need one rather than simply follow logic of “it’s a strong defensive skill so we must give it a drawback”
2) All that said, while cloak may not have a direct drawback, it does suffer from several indirect drawbacks. As already highlighted by others it has several hard counters, some of which outright disable the skill from being used. Which isn’t something other defensive skills suffer from (outside of the global unique case of getting negated). So you have a drawback of having potentially a dead skill slot, which is an opportunity cost. The other subtle drawback of cloak it has the potential have no defensive benefit at all, depending on the opponents actions, so you can spend magicka for nothing. And I’m not talking about the cases when the opponent uses a direct counter like magelight, because at least then you have also cost the opponent resources. Rather, if your opponent plays as in a way as described by @Oreyn_Bearclaw with good use of AoE. In these cases, if you use cloak and they predict it and do something like jabs or spin to win, cloak gives you no benefit at all. In basically all other defensive skill cases, even if the opponent uses the right counter for your skill you at least get something: ie you use streak and they follow with either speed or a gap closer, at least you still deal damage, potentially stun and get the movement. Sure you may not have escaped but you still got something.
3) Where I will agree with the OP is that cloak is somewhat unique in that unlike most skills it much puts the onus on the opposing player to counter it. It forces them to do something different. But I disagree that this is a bad thing, rather I think it makes the game more involved and interesting. I understand that some players may not like this as they want to play their build in the way they want and not have to adapt/react/change play style as much as cloak forces them to do, but I like that challenge.
So all that said, I guess no I don’t think cloak really needs a specific direct drawback above and beyond how it already integrates into the game.
If you are referring to magelight/cameo hunter, flare or detect pot; They are all horrible counters as I've experience multiple players going invisible right in front of me after I detected them and than they vanished right in front of me while the skill was still active and for the skills that stun it did nothing.
Here are two solutions I have to fix these issues.
1) All forms that detect automatically stun the invisible / stealth target for 5 seconds that the player cannot break free from regardless of CP or gear sets equipped.
2) The NB cannot go back into stealth for 5 seconds after being detected (the NB ability is greyed out) and while the player is looking at the NB and has the skill still active or refreshes the skill the NB cannot go back to stealth until the other player loses site of them.
Wow. Okay, let's go through this.
#1. if you used a light or hunter on a NB, you have 4 seconds to kill. There is no "magically disappeared." Either you underestimated how quickly 4 seconds can pass or you didn't actually land the detect on them. There are plenty times where I skirted a flare but a guard off to the side pulled me out. What you see isn't the full story. Also consider the way lag affects the server reporting player positioning to you.
#2. if you want to stun, use flare. It works rather well.
#3. A 5 second hard CC to a detected nightblade is bonkers. You do that to any build in this game and they're dead. In 5 seconds. If it do it to a totally defenseless NB they're dead in 1.
#4. You already get 4 seconds of the NB not being able to stealth. What's one more second going to do? If you refresh the skill it will continue to keep the NB revealed so long as you're in range. If you can't keep up, that's a build issue on your part.
I enjoy having these conservations because 80% of the time when someone complains about shadowy disguise they don't really understand how the skill works or how easy it is to negate.
Every class has their thing that people complain about. Templars? Sweeps/Jabs. Sorcs? Streak and Curse. Wardens? Subassault and netch. Necro? Self synergy and mitigation. DKs? That's a laundry list right now.
For NBs it's shadowy disguise. It's the only thing we got and people want to take it away because they struggle to adapt.
NBs are the U Boats of ESO pvp. We surface to attack vulnerable targets then sink back below before the heavy guns can target us. It's an essential part of combat in this game. Truly I think some players just want to go keep to keep with as little combat as possible for easy AP. And if there's going to be a fight, everyone line up like it's the revolutionary war where we just exchange attacks.
I drink and I stream things.1 -
GarfieId✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
I don't know how many times I've said this, but they do in countering ranged attacks, if you don't know cloak will make all projectiles coming at the NB miss, wings will reflect projectiles, both can counter ranged attack.
What's hard to understand about this? I don't know why you think I'm talking about offensive power, I've said many times I'm talking about it's defensive power.
So they are similar in that they both offer defense to ranged attacks, maybe you're blinded by your bias to your class or whatever.
Do not know where this is coming from as I already noted cloak has a defensive aspect and that DK wings has a defensive aspect but worked in an extremely different manner that makes the skills extremely different.
Beyond that minor similarity, we have noted the major differences which make it so the two skills are not very comparable. That one skill can be negated and rendered useless is the slam dunk solid fact that puts these two skills in very different camps. So I am clearly not blinded by anything.
You are entitled to your opinion and I think you for sharing it. Have a good day.
The only main difference is that cloak makes you invis, they work in very similar ways as previously stated with regards to ranged attacks. Once again I don't think you understand how cloak works with projectiles.
I mean at this stage it's hopeless trying to explain it to you, clearly blinded by your favorite class. I've laid everything out to you and given you examples but you still cannot understand, maybe I can try explain it in a different way;
3 sorc la weave frags, 6 projectiles, wings reflects 3, hit by other 3, nb dodge all 6.
I mean at this point I don't see how it can get much clearer, failing to accept this fact just goes to show a lack of any understanding of cloak and how to utilize it to it's fullest potential.
And once again the "slot one ability to counter" applies to DK as well, plenty of ways to kill them with wings up for ranged characters, all you've got to do is slot the ability. Even in melee matchups, wings is a dead skill, cloak will still dodge dswing.
Once again NBs failing to understand their kit, blinded by the "my class is bad!" response. This is fact not opinion, all you've got to do is go test it. I really can't make it any easier to explain.
Please show a video of a NB using cloak to reflect a damaging skill, including any stun, knockdown and DoT, back to the attacker and explain what skills prevented the DK from even activating wings. Then we can say the only major difference between the two skills is one makes the NB invisible.
I look forward to such proof which will demonstrate that invisibility is the main difference between the skills. Until then, have a good day.
Completely missing the point, why are you talking about reflects? You're thinking is all wrong, total damage mitigated is the name of the game not reflect, you know it's defensive ability... as previously stated projectiles miss hence 100% damage mitigation from projectiles, nbs can dodge stuns too (stun projectiles are a thing!?) just like flame clench (and to my knowledge now toppling charge) so yes they can avoid stuns.
I've told you how to test (who knows I could edit the video!!) as for skills to stop DK from using wings, stuns like rune cage, turn evil, mass hysteria, toppling charge, leap etc.. and also negates.
You clearly do not know how to use cloak so maybe go test a bit and then make comments on it when you understand all of it's potential.
Either way as I've said many times there's no reason for it to be nerfed it's perfectly fine as is, (maybe minor expedition would be nice, rare buff few classes have access to but maybe too strong with RAT)
I didn’t miss any point. Also, I mentioned reflect since that was a major aspect of the DK wings. A very major aspect and there were no counters to force the cessation of wings or the reflect or prevent the DK from using the skill.
This is part of the factual information I have provided that prove conclusively that the former design of the DK wings is more different than it is similar to NB cloak.
Please stop suggesting we don’t know what we are talking about to try to discredit us. I work to keep my replies to the facts instead of attacking the person.
Your replies are not fact, I've laid everything you for you and you still cannot understand the whole point, by what your saying it clearly shows you don't know all the mechanics from cloak, that's not an attack that's what I'm saying because you do not understand how similar it is in a defensive situation, all you do is keeping brining up reflect for some reason (idk why) and fail to see what I've been saying for I don't know how long.
The only difference is one makes you invis one reflects 3 projectiles, if anything cloak was a better version of wings due to the uncapped amount, allowing for a higher total damage mitigated, but you can't seem to see this. (I've laid it out pretty well and clearly but you seem to just not want to believe it for some reason)
Also saying the reflect was the main factor of old wings is complete false, you run it for the defense, why would anyone run an ability with offensive intention that only works again half (even less) the players you fight? At least come up with something else.
As seen in my last post I replied to everything you said with what happens with cloak in comparing the 2 abilities from a ranged perspective, and even gave you plenty of examples to understand and to try yourself if you didn't believe them, but still you cannot see? Maybe blinded by your class bias. I've also listed a fair few abilities you could've used to counter DK but you seemed to not care for them.
Once again you've missed the whole point I've said everything in the previous posts, if you have to go and read them again go for it but you're not looking at what I'm saying you're just avoiding it.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
I don't know how many times I've said this, but they do in countering ranged attacks, if you don't know cloak will make all projectiles coming at the NB miss, wings will reflect projectiles, both can counter ranged attack.
What's hard to understand about this? I don't know why you think I'm talking about offensive power, I've said many times I'm talking about it's defensive power.
So they are similar in that they both offer defense to ranged attacks, maybe you're blinded by your bias to your class or whatever.
Do not know where this is coming from as I already noted cloak has a defensive aspect and that DK wings has a defensive aspect but worked in an extremely different manner that makes the skills extremely different.
Beyond that minor similarity, we have noted the major differences which make it so the two skills are not very comparable. That one skill can be negated and rendered useless is the slam dunk solid fact that puts these two skills in very different camps. So I am clearly not blinded by anything.
You are entitled to your opinion and I think you for sharing it. Have a good day.
The only main difference is that cloak makes you invis, they work in very similar ways as previously stated with regards to ranged attacks. Once again I don't think you understand how cloak works with projectiles.
I mean at this stage it's hopeless trying to explain it to you, clearly blinded by your favorite class. I've laid everything out to you and given you examples but you still cannot understand, maybe I can try explain it in a different way;
3 sorc la weave frags, 6 projectiles, wings reflects 3, hit by other 3, nb dodge all 6.
I mean at this point I don't see how it can get much clearer, failing to accept this fact just goes to show a lack of any understanding of cloak and how to utilize it to it's fullest potential.
And once again the "slot one ability to counter" applies to DK as well, plenty of ways to kill them with wings up for ranged characters, all you've got to do is slot the ability. Even in melee matchups, wings is a dead skill, cloak will still dodge dswing.
Once again NBs failing to understand their kit, blinded by the "my class is bad!" response. This is fact not opinion, all you've got to do is go test it. I really can't make it any easier to explain.
Please show a video of a NB using cloak to reflect a damaging skill, including any stun, knockdown and DoT, back to the attacker and explain what skills prevented the DK from even activating wings. Then we can say the only major difference between the two skills is one makes the NB invisible.
I look forward to such proof which will demonstrate that invisibility is the main difference between the skills. Until then, have a good day.
Completely missing the point, why are you talking about reflects? You're thinking is all wrong, total damage mitigated is the name of the game not reflect, you know it's defensive ability... as previously stated projectiles miss hence 100% damage mitigation from projectiles, nbs can dodge stuns too (stun projectiles are a thing!?) just like flame clench (and to my knowledge now toppling charge) so yes they can avoid stuns.
I've told you how to test (who knows I could edit the video!!) as for skills to stop DK from using wings, stuns like rune cage, turn evil, mass hysteria, toppling charge, leap etc.. and also negates.
You clearly do not know how to use cloak so maybe go test a bit and then make comments on it when you understand all of it's potential.
Either way as I've said many times there's no reason for it to be nerfed it's perfectly fine as is, (maybe minor expedition would be nice, rare buff few classes have access to but maybe too strong with RAT)
I didn’t miss any point. Also, I mentioned reflect since that was a major aspect of the DK wings. A very major aspect and there were no counters to force the cessation of wings or the reflect or prevent the DK from using the skill.
This is part of the factual information I have provided that prove conclusively that the former design of the DK wings is more different than it is similar to NB cloak.
Please stop suggesting we don’t know what we are talking about to try to discredit us. I work to keep my replies to the facts instead of attacking the person.Your replies are not fact, I've laid everything you for you and you still cannot understand the whole point, by what your saying it clearly shows you don't know all the mechanics from cloak, that's not an attack that's what I'm saying because you do not understand how similar it is in a defensive situation, all you do is keeping brining up reflect for some reason (idk why) and fail to see what I've been saying for I don't know how long.
The only difference is one makes you invis one reflects 3 projectiles, if anything cloak was a better version of wings due to the uncapped amount, allowing for a higher total damage mitigated, but you can't seem to see this. (I've laid it out pretty well and clearly but you seem to just not want to believe it for some reason)
Also saying the reflect was the main factor of old wings is complete false, you run it for the defense, why would anyone run an ability with offensive intention that only works again half (even less) the players you fight? At least come up with something else.
As seen in my last post I replied to everything you said with what happens with cloak in comparing the 2 abilities from a ranged perspective, and even gave you plenty of examples to understand and to try yourself if you didn't believe them, but still you cannot see? Maybe blinded by your class bias. I've also listed a fair few abilities you could've used to counter DK but you seemed to not care for them.
Once again you've missed the whole point I've said everything in the previous posts, if you have to go and read them again go for it but you're not looking at what I'm saying you're just avoiding it.
Nope. I have not missed any point and see the issue clearly and have stated things accurately.
I respect your opportunity to express your opinion and thank you for sharing it. Have a good day.1 -
GarfieId✭There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.
1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.
Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.
Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.
1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.
That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.
Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime
...
Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.
Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)
Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.
Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.
So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.
That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.
I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.
If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.
Those are not counters to a skill but merely some skill that could still be used. None of them rendered wings useless which is something the cloak counters do. All counters to cloak end the use of the skill completely and the hard counters prevent the use of the skill for a determined amount of time. That is a stark difference from what you have explained about wings
And as I previously stated, the counters to cloak are specifically what the skill balanced and the devs have stated as much. It is a choice to use the counter or not. If you want to negate the use of cloak I suggest start using counters. Every day players prove these counters work very well.
Adding here. @TheEndBringer brings up another good point that separates DK wings from cloak even farther making the comparison even less relevant.
Again, I respect your opinion. However, I stand with the clear majority in this thread that the counter to cloak are more than sufficient to balance the skill in the game.
Just to let you know I'm not saying nerf cloak, I merely saying that both in a defensive situation perform near identical, just one was nerfed and the other was not. As I've said before I've no problem with cloak, if anything it's pretty weak and just causes new players to panic spam it burning away resources, any nb I fight running cloak normally folds, (albeit I'm on a templar so I just jab them out of it) or just runs away. In saying that a lot of players don't really know how to use it effectively.
Just still a little salty that such a unique cool ability was removed from the game and in which synergized with the classes kit and role at the time.
The two skills have never performed nearly identical in any aspect.
DK wings reflected projectiles making it both a skill that was simultaneously actively defensive and offensive. It originally reflected all projectiles leaving heavy attacks of channeled states as pretty much the only range attacks that were not reflected and then it was changed so some ranged attacks were not reflected. The DK has full use of all skills while wings were active and none of those skills would end the effect of wings nor could another player end the effect of wings on an enemy DK outside of using negate on the DK. Even then the DK could immediately refresh wings making the use of a sorcs negate for this purpose pretty much pointless.
The NB cloak only does one thing and temporarily hides the player. It has numerous counters that any player can utilize to pull a NB out of the cloak with many of them placing a debuff on the NB preventing them from using cloak again for several seconds. The NB cannot use any skills other than cloak while cloak is active or the cloak will immediately end. There is no offensive aspect to the use of the skill.
Those details of the two skills clearly demonstrate the fact the two skill have nothing in common other than both cost magicka. Not even nearly identical using the broadest measure.
I don't know how many times I've said this, but they do in countering ranged attacks, if you don't know cloak will make all projectiles coming at the NB miss, wings will reflect projectiles, both can counter ranged attack.
What's hard to understand about this? I don't know why you think I'm talking about offensive power, I've said many times I'm talking about it's defensive power.
So they are similar in that they both offer defense to ranged attacks, maybe you're blinded by your bias to your class or whatever.
Do not know where this is coming from as I already noted cloak has a defensive aspect and that DK wings has a defensive aspect but worked in an extremely different manner that makes the skills extremely different.
Beyond that minor similarity, we have noted the major differences which make it so the two skills are not very comparable. That one skill can be negated and rendered useless is the slam dunk solid fact that puts these two skills in very different camps. So I am clearly not blinded by anything.
You are entitled to your opinion and I think you for sharing it. Have a good day.
The only main difference is that cloak makes you invis, they work in very similar ways as previously stated with regards to ranged attacks. Once again I don't think you understand how cloak works with projectiles.
I mean at this stage it's hopeless trying to explain it to you, clearly blinded by your favorite class. I've laid everything out to you and given you examples but you still cannot understand, maybe I can try explain it in a different way;
3 sorc la weave frags, 6 projectiles, wings reflects 3, hit by other 3, nb dodge all 6.
I mean at this point I don't see how it can get much clearer, failing to accept this fact just goes to show a lack of any understanding of cloak and how to utilize it to it's fullest potential.
And once again the "slot one ability to counter" applies to DK as well, plenty of ways to kill them with wings up for ranged characters, all you've got to do is slot the ability. Even in melee matchups, wings is a dead skill, cloak will still dodge dswing.
Once again NBs failing to understand their kit, blinded by the "my class is bad!" response. This is fact not opinion, all you've got to do is go test it. I really can't make it any easier to explain.
Please show a video of a NB using cloak to reflect a damaging skill, including any stun, knockdown and DoT, back to the attacker and explain what skills prevented the DK from even activating wings. Then we can say the only major difference between the two skills is one makes the NB invisible.
I look forward to such proof which will demonstrate that invisibility is the main difference between the skills. Until then, have a good day.
Completely missing the point, why are you talking about reflects? You're thinking is all wrong, total damage mitigated is the name of the game not reflect, you know it's defensive ability... as previously stated projectiles miss hence 100% damage mitigation from projectiles, nbs can dodge stuns too (stun projectiles are a thing!?) just like flame clench (and to my knowledge now toppling charge) so yes they can avoid stuns.
I've told you how to test (who knows I could edit the video!!) as for skills to stop DK from using wings, stuns like rune cage, turn evil, mass hysteria, toppling charge, leap etc.. and also negates.
You clearly do not know how to use cloak so maybe go test a bit and then make comments on it when you understand all of it's potential.
Either way as I've said many times there's no reason for it to be nerfed it's perfectly fine as is, (maybe minor expedition would be nice, rare buff few classes have access to but maybe too strong with RAT)
I didn’t miss any point. Also, I mentioned reflect since that was a major aspect of the DK wings. A very major aspect and there were no counters to force the cessation of wings or the reflect or prevent the DK from using the skill.
This is part of the factual information I have provided that prove conclusively that the former design of the DK wings is more different than it is similar to NB cloak.
Please stop suggesting we don’t know what we are talking about to try to discredit us. I work to keep my replies to the facts instead of attacking the person.Your replies are not fact, I've laid everything you for you and you still cannot understand the whole point, by what your saying it clearly shows you don't know all the mechanics from cloak, that's not an attack that's what I'm saying because you do not understand how similar it is in a defensive situation, all you do is keeping brining up reflect for some reason (idk why) and fail to see what I've been saying for I don't know how long.
The only difference is one makes you invis one reflects 3 projectiles, if anything cloak was a better version of wings due to the uncapped amount, allowing for a higher total damage mitigated, but you can't seem to see this. (I've laid it out pretty well and clearly but you seem to just not want to believe it for some reason)
Also saying the reflect was the main factor of old wings is complete false, you run it for the defense, why would anyone run an ability with offensive intention that only works again half (even less) the players you fight? At least come up with something else.
As seen in my last post I replied to everything you said with what happens with cloak in comparing the 2 abilities from a ranged perspective, and even gave you plenty of examples to understand and to try yourself if you didn't believe them, but still you cannot see? Maybe blinded by your class bias. I've also listed a fair few abilities you could've used to counter DK but you seemed to not care for them.
Once again you've missed the whole point I've said everything in the previous posts, if you have to go and read them again go for it but you're not looking at what I'm saying you're just avoiding it.
Nope. I have not missed any point and see the issue clearly and have stated things accurately.
I respect your opportunity to express your opinion and thank you for sharing it. Have a good day.
[snip]
Giving you literal facts, but you seem to think it's an opinion due to your ignorance of cloak, once again biased beyond belief of your class.
So once again I'll respectively say, you've missed the point with your extreme tunnel vision on the reflect. You're doing what I believe they call "spread sheet balancing", you're looking at text not performance.
Eso mechanics cannot be stated through text but through experience. Needless to say you apparently have little of it with regards to cloaks mechanics, because if you did you'd understand the point I make very clearly. Even if you went and tested them you'd see, but you didn't, you just brushed if off and went back to the automated response when you've been proven wrong.
So yeah take care and have a good one [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Exile on 29 March 2022 14:300
