ESO PvP Update [Updated June 2022]

Elsonso · January 2022

malistorr wrote: »

I don't have time to read through 9-pages of posts. I just hope that in addition to recoding parts of the game, ZOS will be doing a complete hardware refresh too. As an IT person with a couple decades of experience and someone who just replaced every server in our company, I know the importance of keeping hardware up-to-date as well as making sure your code is optimized. It is just as important for improving the performance of the game, if not more so. I read a comment/post by someone at ZOS about how the pandemic impacted/prevented ZOS from rebuilding/replacing hardware over the past year or 2 but a hardware refresh is badly needed if it hasn't already been done in the past few years. Glad to see this post though. I wish I could fast forward a year to see if performance will really be better.

The hardware refresh is not part of the PVP performance improvements, and is left over from work that was not completed last year due to supply issues. This is mainly to address reliability issues, per their statement.

malistorr · January 2022

Yep it's just hard to believe. I replaced a whole company worth of servers during the pandemic. (Phone and internet company) No problems getting server RAM, SSD hard drives, and the whole servers themselves from Dell. There may have been an extra week or 2 for shipping but no problems at all otherwise. I'm sure they need a lot of hardware but a company like them would be moved to the front of the line.

LadyGrantham · January 2022

I am someone who actually enjoys the streams with Rich and his wife when she does her talk time (which is usually about the rescue organization she leads). Typically all streams are casual and enjoyable…..until there are such toxic people commenting in the streams and believing they are some how entitled to be heard, no matter what they say or how offensive they are. I have NOT heard ANYTHING that should be apologized for from either the dev or his wife. People actually go there for non-ESO conversations too. The level of insults (some way beyond personal) that have been hurled at them are awful and yes you hear the frustration in the responses at times…it’s been months of constant badgering in that stream channel. I think the people who clipped small out-of-context snippets from streams are nefarious in their intentions and should be the ones apologizing to the followers in the channel. Rich has been stating that he wants to fix things and he understands frustration, but no one is happy with the responses so insults and baiting follow every response.

I do not understand how anyone feels they have a right to know the inner workings of a business operation — yes we are consumers of a product — yes it is frustrating — but to feel we are entitled to answers to all of our questions, status updates, etc. as though we were part of the day-to-day operations or a member of the board of directors is unrealistic. We are not privy to that level nor to the frequency of communication of updates of which some demand. They have graciously given us some answers — I am thankful. We can choose to buy the product or not buy it. Does anyone actually think that say Apple would ever give us status updates on any product design or the strategies they have? I mean, I too spend thousands of dollars on products with them — but the answer is… No, they would not give regular updates on progress or operations — not to the level that some in the ESO community expect from ZoS.

People complain about toxic players because there are toxic players in this community who unfortunately speak so often and so loudly that they are thought to speak for everyone in a specific player base— which is also not the case. A few bad people taint the pool. And yes, there are players who strive to be the 1% and tell everyone who is not META or doesn’t have the perceived right build that they are terrible players or whatever else all the while, some of us just want to have fun. The beauty of this game is that some people will only do quest and story line their whole ESO experience…some play with the fun sets that people get mad about if they had the audacity to wear the gear into a daily dungeon…..or some who may only step into PvP or dungeons if a special event…some are serious performers who analyze every data point for their builds….it is ALL ok….we should all be able to play our style to have fun…if we were all the same builds, gears, etc where would the fun be in not having any choices. I play the game I love and have since launch…I play through some poor performance because this is the game I love — and I know that it is being addressed, albeit a long path had to be taken to get on the right path, but action plans have been taking place all along even if not the ones everyone wanted. I love this game. End story.

AJones43865 · January 2022

LadyGrantham wrote: »

I am someone who actually enjoys the streams with Rich and his wife when she does her talk time (which is usually about the rescue organization she leads). Typically all streams are casual and enjoyable…..until there are such toxic people commenting in the streams and believing they are some how entitled to be heard, no matter what they say or how offensive they are. I have NOT heard ANYTHING that should be apologized for from either the dev or his wife. People actually go there for non-ESO conversations too. The level of insults (some way beyond personal) that have been hurled at them are awful and yes you hear the frustration in the responses at times…it’s been months of constant badgering in that stream channel. I think the people who clipped small out-of-context snippets from streams are nefarious in their intentions and should be the ones apologizing to the followers in the channel. Rich has been stating that he wants to fix things and he understands frustration, but no one is happy with the responses so insults and baiting follow every response.

I do not understand how anyone feels they have a right to know the inner workings of a business operation — yes we are consumers of a product — yes it is frustrating — but to feel we are entitled to answers to all of our questions, status updates, etc. as though we were part of the day-to-day operations or a member of the board of directors is unrealistic. We are not privy to that level nor to the frequency of communication of updates of which some demand. They have graciously given us some answers — I am thankful. We can choose to buy the product or not buy it. Does anyone actually think that say Apple would ever give us status updates on any product design or the strategies they have? I mean, I too spend thousands of dollars on products with them — but the answer is… No, they would not give regular updates on progress or operations — not to the level that some in the ESO community expect from ZoS.

People complain about toxic players because there are toxic players in this community who unfortunately speak so often and so loudly that they are thought to speak for everyone in a specific player base— which is also not the case. A few bad people taint the pool. And yes, there are players who strive to be the 1% and tell everyone who is not META or doesn’t have the perceived right build that they are terrible players or whatever else all the while, some of us just want to have fun. The beauty of this game is that some people will only do quest and story line their whole ESO experience…some play with the fun sets that people get mad about if they had the audacity to wear the gear into a daily dungeon…..or some who may only step into PvP or dungeons if a special event…some are serious performers who analyze every data point for their builds….it is ALL ok….we should all be able to play our style to have fun…if we were all the same builds, gears, etc where would the fun be in not having any choices. I play the game I love and have since launch…I play through some poor performance because this is the game I love — and I know that it is being addressed, albeit a long path had to be taken to get on the right path, but action plans have been taking place all along even if not the ones everyone wanted. I love this game. End story.

Intriguing first post.

The problem is that we've been told "we're working on it" for far too long, almost five years, and performance and communication has gotten worse, not better. That makes ZOS the primary source of the toxicity, not the players or someone asking a question in a stream. If ZOS employees are going to start considering the paying customers as the problem, that is definitely going to be a problem. No communication and no performance improvements over years is the problem. Not the players who have the audacity to present legitimate complaints or ask legitimate questions.

BlossomDead · January 2022

LadyGrantham wrote: »

I am someone who actually enjoys the streams with Rich and his wife when she does her talk time (which is usually about the rescue organization she leads). Typically all streams are casual and enjoyable…..until there are such toxic people commenting in the streams and believing they are some how entitled to be heard, no matter what they say or how offensive they are. I have NOT heard ANYTHING that should be apologized for from either the dev or his wife. People actually go there for non-ESO conversations too. The level of insults (some way beyond personal) that have been hurled at them are awful and yes you hear the frustration in the responses at times…it’s been months of constant badgering in that stream channel. I think the people who clipped small out-of-context snippets from streams are nefarious in their intentions and should be the ones apologizing to the followers in the channel. Rich has been stating that he wants to fix things and he understands frustration, but no one is happy with the responses so insults and baiting follow every response.

I do not understand how anyone feels they have a right to know the inner workings of a business operation — yes we are consumers of a product — yes it is frustrating — but to feel we are entitled to answers to all of our questions, status updates, etc. as though we were part of the day-to-day operations or a member of the board of directors is unrealistic. We are not privy to that level nor to the frequency of communication of updates of which some demand. They have graciously given us some answers — I am thankful. We can choose to buy the product or not buy it. Does anyone actually think that say Apple would ever give us status updates on any product design or the strategies they have? I mean, I too spend thousands of dollars on products with them — but the answer is… No, they would not give regular updates on progress or operations — not to the level that some in the ESO community expect from ZoS.

People complain about toxic players because there are toxic players in this community who unfortunately speak so often and so loudly that they are thought to speak for everyone in a specific player base— which is also not the case. A few bad people taint the pool. And yes, there are players who strive to be the 1% and tell everyone who is not META or doesn’t have the perceived right build that they are terrible players or whatever else all the while, some of us just want to have fun. The beauty of this game is that some people will only do quest and story line their whole ESO experience…some play with the fun sets that people get mad about if they had the audacity to wear the gear into a daily dungeon…..or some who may only step into PvP or dungeons if a special event…some are serious performers who analyze every data point for their builds….it is ALL ok….we should all be able to play our style to have fun…if we were all the same builds, gears, etc where would the fun be in not having any choices. I play the game I love and have since launch…I play through some poor performance because this is the game I love — and I know that it is being addressed, albeit a long path had to be taken to get on the right path, but action plans have been taking place all along even if not the ones everyone wanted. I love this game. End story.

Is this either one of the individuals in the video? Or better yet... their parrot (the actual pet they own)?

Idinuse · January 2022

LadyGrantham wrote: »

I am someone who actually enjoys the streams with Rich and his wife when she does her talk time (which is usually about the rescue organization she leads). Typically all streams are casual and enjoyable…..until there are such toxic people commenting in the streams and believing they are some how entitled to be heard, no matter what they say or how offensive they are. I have NOT heard ANYTHING that should be apologized for from either the dev or his wife. People actually go there for non-ESO conversations too. The level of insults (some way beyond personal) that have been hurled at them are awful and yes you hear the frustration in the responses at times…it’s been months of constant badgering in that stream channel. I think the people who clipped small out-of-context snippets from streams are nefarious in their intentions and should be the ones apologizing to the followers in the channel. Rich has been stating that he wants to fix things and he understands frustration, but no one is happy with the responses so insults and baiting follow every response.

I do not understand how anyone feels they have a right to know the inner workings of a business operation — yes we are consumers of a product — yes it is frustrating — but to feel we are entitled to answers to all of our questions, status updates, etc. as though we were part of the day-to-day operations or a member of the board of directors is unrealistic. We are not privy to that level nor to the frequency of communication of updates of which some demand. They have graciously given us some answers — I am thankful. We can choose to buy the product or not buy it.
Does anyone actually think that say Apple would ever give us status updates on any product design or the strategies they have? I mean, I too spend thousands of dollars on products with them — but the answer is… No, they would not give regular updates on progress or operations — not to the level that some in the ESO community expect from ZoS.

People complain about toxic players because there are toxic players in this community who unfortunately speak so often and so loudly that they are thought to speak for everyone in a specific player base— which is also not the case. A few bad people taint the pool. And yes, there are players who strive to be the 1% and tell everyone who is not META or doesn’t have the perceived right build that they are terrible players or whatever else all the while, some of us just want to have fun. The beauty of this game is that some people will only do quest and story line their whole ESO experience…some play with the fun sets that people get mad about if they had the audacity to wear the gear into a daily dungeon…..or some who may only step into PvP or dungeons if a special event…some are serious performers who analyze every data point for their builds….it is ALL ok….we should all be able to play our style to have fun…if we were all the same builds, gears, etc where would the fun be in not having any choices. I play the game I love and have since launch…I play through some poor performance because this is the game I love — and I know that it is being addressed, albeit a long path had to be taken to get on the right path, but action plans have been taking place all along even if not the ones everyone wanted. I love this game. End story.

I'm sorry but ESO is not only a product (core game + ~$40 DLCs) but also a service. A service many are paying a monthly or yearly fee for, albeit voluntary . Would you be fine if a service you are currently (voluntarily) paying for, i.e. Netflix, couldn't deliver anything other than a 480p picture and mono sound if at all to you and for the 3rd (or 5th) year they tell you they're looking into it.

In fact, I have an example myself. The HBO client is a mess, they've stopped supporting the clients on older hardware with the argument that they "want to make sure they deliver the best picture and sound quality" to me. I used to have 1080P and Dolby Digital sound on all my client hardware. Now my Apple TV, which delivered Dolby Digital has no working HBO client. The only two devices that can download the new HBO client are my iPhone and a bad on new levels Android media streamer box. None of these devices can output Dolby Digital to my system. Furthermore, the clients on both these devices stop working after watching i.e. an episode. I have to exit the app, restart it and then maybe it works for another episode again. I'm expected to buy new hardware for ~$120 for a new model box to enjoy their $8/month streaming service, which worked perfectly well on my current HW before.

So much for giving me the "best experience". So naturally I took my money elsewhere. A tear in the ocean, I know, but I do believe it all adds up in the end. If nothing else, I don't have to expose myself to trouble and pain and instead relax and enjoy working services, as it's meant to be. Entertainment. Not something that makes you feel bad every time you use it.

One reason many people are engaged in criticism of ESO and pointing out what is not working is a fear that people will take their money elsewhere due to the, in many cases, poor performance of ESO which in the long run could be bad for the game they love. It comes from a love for the game, not hate.

VaranisArano · January 2022

LadyGrantham wrote: »

I am someone who actually enjoys the streams with Rich and his wife when she does her talk time (which is usually about the rescue organization she leads). Typically all streams are casual and enjoyable…..until there are such toxic people commenting in the streams and believing they are some how entitled to be heard, no matter what they say or how offensive they are. I have NOT heard ANYTHING that should be apologized for from either the dev or his wife. People actually go there for non-ESO conversations too. The level of insults (some way beyond personal) that have been hurled at them are awful and yes you hear the frustration in the responses at times…it’s been months of constant badgering in that stream channel. I think the people who clipped small out-of-context snippets from streams are nefarious in their intentions and should be the ones apologizing to the followers in the channel. Rich has been stating that he wants to fix things and he understands frustration, but no one is happy with the responses so insults and baiting follow every response.

I do not understand how anyone feels they have a right to know the inner workings of a business operation — yes we are consumers of a product — yes it is frustrating — but to feel we are entitled to answers to all of our questions, status updates, etc. as though we were part of the day-to-day operations or a member of the board of directors is unrealistic. We are not privy to that level nor to the frequency of communication of updates of which some demand. They have graciously given us some answers — I am thankful. We can choose to buy the product or not buy it. Does anyone actually think that say Apple would ever give us status updates on any product design or the strategies they have? I mean, I too spend thousands of dollars on products with them — but the answer is… No, they would not give regular updates on progress or operations — not to the level that some in the ESO community expect from ZoS.

People complain about toxic players because there are toxic players in this community who unfortunately speak so often and so loudly that they are thought to speak for everyone in a specific player base— which is also not the case. A few bad people taint the pool. And yes, there are players who strive to be the 1% and tell everyone who is not META or doesn’t have the perceived right build that they are terrible players or whatever else all the while, some of us just want to have fun. The beauty of this game is that some people will only do quest and story line their whole ESO experience…some play with the fun sets that people get mad about if they had the audacity to wear the gear into a daily dungeon…..or some who may only step into PvP or dungeons if a special event…some are serious performers who analyze every data point for their builds….it is ALL ok….we should all be able to play our style to have fun…if we were all the same builds, gears, etc where would the fun be in not having any choices. I play the game I love and have since launch…I play through some poor performance because this is the game I love — and I know that it is being addressed, albeit a long path had to be taken to get on the right path, but action plans have been taking place all along even if not the ones everyone wanted. I love this game. End story.

I partly agree.

I dislike the bad behavior on the part of people seeking answers from Rich Lambert on his stream, yet its a simple fact that his stream IS a place that players can seek answers. He made it that way. And where else can they go for those answers?

From who else can visually disabled players get a conversation about how the Devs think about their concerns and requests like for a night/day cycle control? (This was the conversation that got interrupted by the provoking PVP question that got clipped.) The forums? Well, maybe. They might get a note from the Community Team that it's being looked into. Maybe not. I've seen both results on accessibility threads.

Where else can they go to ask why Clothing items have never been added as styles? Well, I've seen them ask on the forums, but never get an answer. Rich answered on his stream (the Devs didn't think the clothes looked good).

Where else can they go to ask about PVP performance? The forums? Well, they did. No answer. ESO Live? No answer. Rich's stream? Well...turns out he's been discussing that they found the root of the issue and right have to do some serious recoding since December. No one else at ZOS has said a peep about that until after this kerfuffle happened. No one in the PVP community knew that "we're working on it" meant a possible rearchitecture...unless they watched Rich's stream or heard secondhand from people who did.

When players who want answers, there's one place that's giving answers that can't be gotten elsewhere: Rich's stream.

And this is clearly not just a problem of entitled players seeking privileged developmental information from Rich. I mean, he's okay discussing this stuff on a personal stream, so there's really no reason I see that it can't be shared on the forums first-hand as opposed to second-hand from people watching the streams. At least, I assume that Rich knows to keep the stuff that actually IS privileged under wraps. It may not be easy to draw the line between "I can/can't discuss this", but that's what has to be done when he's set himself up as willing to answer questions that aren't getting answered anywhere else.

That's not to say he brought the bad behavior of certain provoking players down on himself by streaming. No, their bad behavior is their own responsibility and likely to be a case study in "this is why we can't have nice things." I think it's a shame and I wish they'd be polite about it. If they can't see that kindness is its own reward, perhaps they'd do well to reflect on the story of "the Goose that Laid Golden Eggs."

What it is to say is that if Rich doesn't want his stream to be a place where players go to ask questions, he can stop anytime. Or, he could ask the Communications Team to start providing those answers more officially. If he can answer these questions on Stream, then there's no reason for these questions to go unanswered in the forums, right?

Right now, there's a fair bit of heat on Rich's stream because it is the only place where the players can get that level of information. If Rich wants to take the heat off but also keep answering questions, then I think making himself not the only source of this information would be a good idea. Let the Communications Team start answering some of these questions as they pop up on the forums. Don't delay on keeping players informed on hot button issues like PVP performance. If it's okay for Rich to talk about on his personal stream, then why the official silence?

I too love ESO. One thing I never expected to love about ESO was its PVP. Never. I was a PVE-only player from Skyrim who hated the idea of Cyrodiil until I went there for achievements and gradually learned to love it as I played with my new PVP guild.

I've "played through bad performance" for the sake of Cyrodill's huge army v army gameplay and the friendships I formed with my guild. For years. Even when performance degraded to the point that I was repeatedly crashing at large keep battles (not a great thing when I'm a healer), or we were running across half the map on foot because we were stuck in combat, or when the lag turned a tough fight into a slidehow.

Until we got this Update, what I know from ZOS' official communication is that everything ZOS has tried to fix Cyrodiil has failed. Miserably. And there was no official word on a plan. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Just hints on Rich's stream, heard secondhand.

When you say "we can choose to buy the product or not buy it"...well, my PVP guild left for New World when it launched. My friends moved on. After silence from ZOS following the no-proc tests, they decided they didn't trust ZOS to be able to fix Cyrodiil. For myself, its pretty hard to muster up the energy to walk back into laggy, crashing Cyrodiil by myself, even though I still love it to pieces when it works right. I'm from Missouri, so in the words of my state motto, ZOS is going to have to "Show me" they can fix it before I believe the hype of these action plans. I'm still happy to know there is an action plan at all.

I'm still playing ESO. I'm still paying for ESO. I still love it. But it's on the Devs to ensure that their product is in an appropriate working state. When it's not, as Cyrodiil has not been for years and the Devs know it, then it is their responsibility to communicate their plans to fix it in a timely fashion.

This Update, while welcome, was, in the words of Matt Firor, "long past time to give everyone an update on where we are with PvP improvements."

Elsonso · January 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well...turns out he's been discussing that they found the root of the issue and right have to do some serious recoding since December.

I want to say October, not December, that he first announced that they thought they found the problem and a team was working on it. It has been months, not weeks. It was long enough that it was suggested in the stream chat, on more than one occasion, that they needed to make an announcement.

At that time, the reason for the delay in announcing it, at least as I interpreted the situation, was that they were not certain that this was the solution and that they would be going forward with it. At first mention, Rich said the team had been working on it for a while. That would indicate to me that they have actually been working on this, in some form, since at least Summer 2021. Looking at what Firor said, it seems clear that Rich started talking about it when they started laying down the plans for 2022.

I do not know what Firor was referring to when he talked about "starting". It was already known that people were working on it before the time that Firor indicated.

VaranisArano wrote: »

And this is clearly not just a problem of entitled players seeking privileged developmental information from Rich. I mean, he's okay discussing this stuff on a personal stream, so there's really no reason I see that it can't be shared on the forums first-hand as opposed to second-hand from people watching the streams. At least, I assume that Rich knows to keep the stuff that actually IS privileged under wraps. It may not be easy to draw the line between "I can/can't discuss this", but that's what has to be done when he's set himself up as willing to answer questions that aren't getting answered anywhere else.

The discussions on stream are clearly a matter of opportunity. Rich is there, playing the game. The people with the questions are there, asking them. Rich answers because he can answer, and because he is right there to do it.

The first blocker that I see to just posting it on the forum is that the opportunity isn't there. Rich is not on his steam to answer questions, he is there to play the game, which he likes doing. The answers are a byproduct of that.

The second blocker is that he can say things, but can others?. Rich's position allows him to decide, and know, whether something can be said on his stream and he does not need to go get approval. Others probably do.

This probably should be in the "A response to communications" thread, but what really needs to happen for Rich's stream is that there needs to be a reliable way to get information distributed better. It is not a problem that he answers the questions, but that the answers are not easily consumable.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Until we got this Update, what I know from ZOS' official communication is that everything ZOS has tried to fix Cyrodiil has failed. Miserably. And there was no official word on a plan. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Just hints on Rich's stream, heard secondhand.

When asked about why they were not talking about performance, the reason Rich gave was (and I paraphrase) that they had talked about things, and that not everything worked as they hoped, so it did not mean anything to the community. In my words, ZOS was seen as misleading and deceptive. A sentiment echoed in here, by some people in the community.

I understand the reluctance. Sadly, this is one of those times where ZOS should not have listened to them and just said their thing. Performance is the #1 issue for the game. If it happens to turn out as they say, great. If it does not pan out, tell what is next. Ignore the detractors, as listening to them ended up hurting more than it helped, and they are not forgiving, anyway.

It was the wrong decision to remain silent on performance.

Flangdoodle · January 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

I partly agree.

I dislike the bad behavior on the part of people seeking answers from Rich Lambert on his stream, yet its a simple fact that his stream IS a place that players can seek answers. He made it that way.

And it wasn't always that way. When Rich first started streaming on Twitch, he was just streaming his gameplay. He'd answer questions about his build, his favorite class, or whatever - but there was a hard rule that there was no "shop talk". His mods would cut those questions off and say something like "hes just doing this for fun, save it for the forums."

He paused streaming for a while, and TBH I was surprised to see him entertaining those kinds of questions when he came back. Big mistake IMO, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Elsonso · January 2022

Flangdoodle wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I partly agree.

I dislike the bad behavior on the part of people seeking answers from Rich Lambert on his stream, yet its a simple fact that his stream IS a place that players can seek answers. He made it that way.

And it wasn't always that way. When Rich first started streaming on Twitch, he was just streaming his gameplay. He'd answer questions about his build, his favorite class, or whatever - but there was a hard rule that there was no "shop talk". His mods would cut those questions off and say something like "hes just doing this for fun, save it for the forums."

He paused streaming for a while, and TBH I was surprised to see him entertaining those kinds of questions when he came back. Big mistake IMO, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Nah, it was not a mistake. If he did not do this, he would simply lok like a dev that was out of touch, living in his world.

sarahthes · January 2022

I suspect it will be a very long time before Rich streams again. So we are back to not very much information. It's a shame, I enjoyed watching him try to stay patient when he rolled a tough random vet with pugs who didn't know the content.

Elsonso · January 2022

sarahthes wrote: »

I suspect it will be a very long time before Rich streams again. So we are back to not very much information. It's a shame, I enjoyed watching him try to stay patient when he rolled a tough random vet with pugs who didn't know the content.

I have heard he is not going to stream until after the announcement, then he will resume streaming.

Icy_Waffles · January 2022

I hope this goes through and is implemented well! It would be a great step and choice!

smallhammer · January 2022

Good to hear that PVP will be improved.

While you are at it; please do something about the "combat bug" in Cyro. It's super annoying. And it's been there for years.

On that subject; why have a combat-mode at all. It's nonsense that you can't mount, while being attacked. Either the attack itself will prevent you from mounting, or not. Easy.

Combat-mode is just annoying, and most of all, the combat bug in Cyro. Can't mount, can't switch weapons and abilities/skills... sigh. Long after the combat is over.
Even at base you can't get rid. Have to go to Cheesemonger's and back, or go out of Cyro, or die.

malistorr · January 2022

I sometimes can't fire just about any skill when attacking resources. I'll run into the tower and a couple enemies will chase me and maybe 10% of the time I can't fire any skills at all for at least 10-seconds or more.

VaranisArano · January 2022

Elsonso wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well...turns out he's been discussing that they found the root of the issue and right have to do some serious recoding since December.

I want to say October, not December, that he first announced that they thought they found the problem and a team was working on it. It has been months, not weeks. It was long enough that it was suggested in the stream chat, on more than one occasion, that they needed to make an announcement.

At that time, the reason for the delay in announcing it, at least as I interpreted the situation, was that they were not certain that this was the solution and that they would be going forward with it. At first mention, Rich said the team had been working on it for a while. That would indicate to me that they have actually been working on this, in some form, since at least Summer 2021. Looking at what Firor said, it seems clear that Rich started talking about it when they started laying down the plans for 2022.

I do not know what Firor was referring to when he talked about "starting". It was already known that people were working on it before the time that Firor indicated.

VaranisArano wrote: »

And this is clearly not just a problem of entitled players seeking privileged developmental information from Rich. I mean, he's okay discussing this stuff on a personal stream, so there's really no reason I see that it can't be shared on the forums first-hand as opposed to second-hand from people watching the streams. At least, I assume that Rich knows to keep the stuff that actually IS privileged under wraps. It may not be easy to draw the line between "I can/can't discuss this", but that's what has to be done when he's set himself up as willing to answer questions that aren't getting answered anywhere else.

The discussions on stream are clearly a matter of opportunity. Rich is there, playing the game. The people with the questions are there, asking them. Rich answers because he can answer, and because he is right there to do it.

The first blocker that I see to just posting it on the forum is that the opportunity isn't there. Rich is not on his steam to answer questions, he is there to play the game, which he likes doing. The answers are a byproduct of that.

The second blocker is that he can say things, but can others?. Rich's position allows him to decide, and know, whether something can be said on his stream and he does not need to go get approval. Others probably do.

This probably should be in the "A response to communications" thread, but what really needs to happen for Rich's stream is that there needs to be a reliable way to get information distributed better. It is not a problem that he answers the questions, but that the answers are not easily consumable.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Until we got this Update, what I know from ZOS' official communication is that everything ZOS has tried to fix Cyrodiil has failed. Miserably. And there was no official word on a plan. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Just hints on Rich's stream, heard secondhand.

When asked about why they were not talking about performance, the reason Rich gave was (and I paraphrase) that they had talked about things, and that not everything worked as they hoped, so it did not mean anything to the community. In my words, ZOS was seen as misleading and deceptive. A sentiment echoed in here, by some people in the community.

I understand the reluctance. Sadly, this is one of those times where ZOS should not have listened to them and just said their thing. Performance is the #1 issue for the game. If it happens to turn out as they say, great. If it does not pan out, tell what is next. Ignore the detractors, as listening to them ended up hurting more than it helped, and they are not forgiving, anyway.

It was the wrong decision to remain silent on performance.

Thanks for your observations! Those seem like reasonable blockers to action and I like your suggestion that there be a reliable way to get that info distributed. That seems like the best of both worlds - Rich gets to decide what's acceptable to talk about on his personal stream, and the answers are made available through an official outlet in ways that don't require players to relay secondhand info or make themselves the messenger bearing bad news.

Elsonso · January 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

Thanks for your observations! Those seem like reasonable blockers to action and I like your suggestion that there be a reliable way to get that info distributed. That seems like the best of both worlds - Rich gets to decide what's acceptable to talk about on his personal stream, and the answers are made available through an official outlet in ways that don't require players to relay secondhand info or make themselves the messenger bearing bad news.

This is why they invented the concept of "interns".

newnamtab · January 2022

Thanks for the update..
Good luck with that work.. I do that for a living.. I know what struggles you're in for.

I you by any chance, need some extra hands, let med know.. Maybe I can acutally be of help.
It would be a dream come true, to help rework ESO ;-)

Maybe see some of you at SQLBits in a few months.

OtarTheMad · January 2022

Elsonso wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

I suspect it will be a very long time before Rich streams again. So we are back to not very much information. It's a shame, I enjoyed watching him try to stay patient when he rolled a tough random vet with pugs who didn't know the content.

I have heard he is not going to stream until after the announcement, then he will resume streaming.

Makes sense. ZOS just went back to work this month after holidays so it must be nuts in the office right now.

I also concur, Rich has been mentioning that they found the issue and it would take time to fix since October.

I am someone who actually enjoys the streams with Rich and his wife when she does her talk time (which is usually about the rescue organization she leads). Typically all streams are casual and enjoyable…..until there are such toxic people commenting in the streams and believing they are some how entitled to be heard, no matter what they say or how offensive they are. I have NOT heard ANYTHING that should be apologized for from either the dev or his wife. People actually go there for non-ESO conversations too. The level of insults (some way beyond personal) that have been hurled at them are awful and yes you hear the frustration in the responses at times…it’s been months of constant badgering in that stream channel. I think the people who clipped small out-of-context snippets from streams are nefarious in their intentions and should be the ones apologizing to the followers in the channel. Rich has been stating that he wants to fix things and he understands frustration, but no one is happy with the responses so insults and baiting follow every response.

I do not understand how anyone feels they have a right to know the inner workings of a business operation — yes we are consumers of a product — yes it is frustrating — but to feel we are entitled to answers to all of our questions, status updates, etc. as though we were part of the day-to-day operations or a member of the board of directors is unrealistic. We are not privy to that level nor to the frequency of communication of updates of which some demand. They have graciously given us some answers — I am thankful. We can choose to buy the product or not buy it. Does anyone actually think that say Apple would ever give us status updates on any product design or the strategies they have? I mean, I too spend thousands of dollars on products with them — but the answer is… No, they would not give regular updates on progress or operations — not to the level that some in the ESO community expect from ZoS.

People complain about toxic players because there are toxic players in this community who unfortunately speak so often and so loudly that they are thought to speak for everyone in a specific player base— which is also not the case. A few bad people taint the pool. And yes, there are players who strive to be the 1% and tell everyone who is not META or doesn’t have the perceived right build that they are terrible players or whatever else all the while, some of us just want to have fun. The beauty of this game is that some people will only do quest and story line their whole ESO experience…some play with the fun sets that people get mad about if they had the audacity to wear the gear into a daily dungeon…..or some who may only step into PvP or dungeons if a special event…some are serious performers who analyze every data point for their builds….it is ALL ok….we should all be able to play our style to have fun…if we were all the same builds, gears, etc where would the fun be in not having any choices. I play the game I love and have since launch…I play through some poor performance because this is the game I love — and I know that it is being addressed, albeit a long path had to be taken to get on the right path, but action plans have been taking place all along even if not the ones everyone wanted. I love this game. End story.

I agree and can say that some of the things I have read by players or heard players say about devs just floors me and these same players talk about professionalism by ZOS on a RARE occasion they say something "out of line"... it's like ahhh... dude what you said couldn't air on cable TV... what ZOS said would be fine on Disney. I've watched Rich's stream a lot and can say he is pretty much always nice to people.

Also, for what it's worth I've worked for companies where it was against the rules to say too much about the inner workings. Not saying that's how ZOS works but it just wouldn't shock me.

Sagetim · January 2022

I see we are back to the 1 year and we will fix it again. How about remove all proc sets till it is fixed. that will improve things... the last set that have come out for PVP have broken the game more.

Jaraal · January 2022

Sagetim wrote: »

I see we are back to the 1 year and we will fix it again. How about remove all proc sets till it is fixed. that will improve things... the last set that have come out for PVP have broken the game more.

There was no performance improvement from removing proc sets. I have no idea why this fallacy keeps being perpetuated.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7149943/#Comment_7149943

Sagetim · January 2022

Jaraal wrote: »

Sagetim wrote: »

I see we are back to the 1 year and we will fix it again. How about remove all proc sets till it is fixed. that will improve things... the last set that have come out for PVP have broken the game more.

There was no performance improvement from removing proc sets. I have no idea why this fallacy keeps being perpetuated.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7149943/#Comment_7149943

Really, it's amazing "YOU" are saying that when "OTHERS" have said different. SO with that side, others see if different and so did I

blktauna · January 2022

Gina said "We’ve heard from a lot of you that despite performance largely being the same, disabling proc sets has breathed new life into PvP gameplay and has made fights more enjoyable and fun."

So yeah, proc and no proc made basically no difference. I am also not one of the people who enjoys no-proc. I would like PCNA Ravenwatch back to its original no-cp self so we can return to it and enjoy fun times. I see its pretty dead now just as predicted.

Jaraal · January 2022

Sagetim wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Sagetim wrote: »

I see we are back to the 1 year and we will fix it again. How about remove all proc sets till it is fixed. that will improve things... the last set that have come out for PVP have broken the game more.

There was no performance improvement from removing proc sets. I have no idea why this fallacy keeps being perpetuated.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7149943/#Comment_7149943

Really, it's amazing "YOU" are saying that when "OTHERS" have said different. SO with that side, others see if different and so did I

Lol, "I" didn't say it. The people who wrote the game code and monitored the data from the no-proc tests said it. If you'd prefer to believe opinions versus facts, that's your prerogative.

Kwoung · January 2022

malistorr wrote: »

Yep it's just hard to believe. I replaced a whole company worth of servers during the pandemic. (Phone and internet company) No problems getting server RAM, SSD hard drives, and the whole servers themselves from Dell. There may have been an extra week or 2 for shipping but no problems at all otherwise. I'm sure they need a lot of hardware but a company like them would be moved to the front of the line.

I will disagree that stuff is showing up like it used to, but as someone who also builds/replaces TONS of server infrastructure, the worst case I have seen is 8 months. Had they actually ordered the hardware when they announced they were, it would have arrived and been able to install many months ago. I am of the opinion they never ordered it, and probably still haven't.

Elsonso · January 2022

Kwoung wrote: »

malistorr wrote: »

Yep it's just hard to believe. I replaced a whole company worth of servers during the pandemic. (Phone and internet company) No problems getting server RAM, SSD hard drives, and the whole servers themselves from Dell. There may have been an extra week or 2 for shipping but no problems at all otherwise. I'm sure they need a lot of hardware but a company like them would be moved to the front of the line.

I will disagree that stuff is showing up like it used to, but as someone who also builds/replaces TONS of server infrastructure, the worst case I have seen is 8 months. Had they actually ordered the hardware when they announced they were, it would have arrived and been able to install many months ago. I am of the opinion they never ordered it, and probably still haven't.

I am actually wondering if we will know. I mean, they can be installing hardware and getting it ready at any time. I would imagine that the upgrades are replacements. They can install and test it without taking down the servers. During some maintenance, they switch over to the new hardware and turn off the old. They don't have to do it all at once, either. They can do it in batches. The bottom line is that if they don't tell us, we won't know.

Kaysha · January 2022

Kwoung wrote: »

I will disagree that stuff is showing up like it used to, but as someone who also builds/replaces TONS of server infrastructure, the worst case I have seen is 8 months. Had they actually ordered the hardware when they announced they were, it would have arrived and been able to install many months ago. I am of the opinion they never ordered it, and probably still haven't.

And probably never will. They optimize the code to make the game run on the old server.

AJones43865 · January 2022

Kwoung wrote: »

malistorr wrote: »

Yep it's just hard to believe. I replaced a whole company worth of servers during the pandemic. (Phone and internet company) No problems getting server RAM, SSD hard drives, and the whole servers themselves from Dell. There may have been an extra week or 2 for shipping but no problems at all otherwise. I'm sure they need a lot of hardware but a company like them would be moved to the front of the line.

I will disagree that stuff is showing up like it used to, but as someone who also builds/replaces TONS of server infrastructure, the worst case I have seen is 8 months. Had they actually ordered the hardware when they announced they were, it would have arrived and been able to install many months ago. I am of the opinion they never ordered it, and probably still haven't.

The problem is they've been telling us they are working on it for over 4 years now, and performance has gotten discernibly worse even though population caps have been slashed to roughly 75/players/faction.

Now they are telling us "they're working on it, and we have to wait at least another year before we see any results."

There is this story about a boy who cried wolf too many times. Eventually people stopped believing the boy.

At this point, and for at least the next year it sounds, the results will speak for themselves apparently.

AJones43865 · January 2022

Elsonso wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

malistorr wrote: »

Yep it's just hard to believe. I replaced a whole company worth of servers during the pandemic. (Phone and internet company) No problems getting server RAM, SSD hard drives, and the whole servers themselves from Dell. There may have been an extra week or 2 for shipping but no problems at all otherwise. I'm sure they need a lot of hardware but a company like them would be moved to the front of the line.

I will disagree that stuff is showing up like it used to, but as someone who also builds/replaces TONS of server infrastructure, the worst case I have seen is 8 months. Had they actually ordered the hardware when they announced they were, it would have arrived and been able to install many months ago. I am of the opinion they never ordered it, and probably still haven't.

I am actually wondering if we will know. I mean, they can be installing hardware and getting it ready at any time. I would imagine that the upgrades are replacements. They can install and test it without taking down the servers. During some maintenance, they switch over to the new hardware and turn off the old. They don't have to do it all at once, either. They can do it in batches. The bottom line is that if they don't tell us, we won't know.

We will know if performance improves or not. We will know. As customers we absolutely can determine what is going on based upon the results. If nothing gets better, as it hasn't consistently for years, then we will know whether or not we are still being strung along. Frankly, and I'm not just speaking for myself here, I feel like ZOS is dragging the customers behind their metaphorical truck on some dusty back road somewhere and laughing at us.

sarahthes · January 2022

AJones43865 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

malistorr wrote: »

Yep it's just hard to believe. I replaced a whole company worth of servers during the pandemic. (Phone and internet company) No problems getting server RAM, SSD hard drives, and the whole servers themselves from Dell. There may have been an extra week or 2 for shipping but no problems at all otherwise. I'm sure they need a lot of hardware but a company like them would be moved to the front of the line.

I will disagree that stuff is showing up like it used to, but as someone who also builds/replaces TONS of server infrastructure, the worst case I have seen is 8 months. Had they actually ordered the hardware when they announced they were, it would have arrived and been able to install many months ago. I am of the opinion they never ordered it, and probably still haven't.

I am actually wondering if we will know. I mean, they can be installing hardware and getting it ready at any time. I would imagine that the upgrades are replacements. They can install and test it without taking down the servers. During some maintenance, they switch over to the new hardware and turn off the old. They don't have to do it all at once, either. They can do it in batches. The bottom line is that if they don't tell us, we won't know.

We will know if performance improves or not. We will know. As customers we absolutely can determine what is going on based upon the results. If nothing gets better, as it hasn't consistently for years, then we will know whether or not we are still being strung along. Frankly, and I'm not just speaking for myself here, I feel like ZOS is dragging the customers behind their metaphorical truck on some dusty back road somewhere and laughing at us for thanking them for it.

I don't think we will be able to tell when they upgrade the hardware. Given they say the issues with performance are based on bad code, upgrading hardware isn't likely to fix anything with performance.