I said it lots of the times. LoS is broken. LoS is the issue.
It shouldn't LoS break from standing behind some small pillar or decoration. LoS break should only occur when enemy is under big, undeniably thick wall.

Healing is alright, except cross-heals that stack to the player (instead of being on the ground).

Toughness is not an issue at all. None of those builds you describe is tough enough to survive strong burst of 2 players.

To OP: sniping from the base/walls is very newbish thing, completely telegraphed, all the incoming projectiles can be dodged/blocked and it is not an issue. Wall sniping is literally the lowest skill possible thing you can do in PvP. Learn to gank. Learn to combo. Learn to time your engage with ally burst.

Vevvev wrote: »

That's that thing.... they're not tanks! Yeah, tanks are not pulling off that 1vX stuff you just saw that are able to turn around and slap someone down. They're damage dealers speced to around 30k HP, high resistances, and a lot of burst healing on hand. Real tanks go to around 40-50k HP, but not these guys because to get more health to become more tanky they actually end up with worse healing that effects their survivability negatively.

To kill them you have to stun them right as your burst combo is coming down upon them. If you don't have the burst to kill them in the time frame from when they get stunned to when they break free you need to find ways to increase your damage and/or find friends able to time it all together. Wars of attrition don't work well on them either unless you zerg them down and keep them in the spotlight (I.E slow them down and don't give them many chances to line of sight) because they have the sustain whether it be through passives, CP, and/or potions to keep the fight up.

Best way to kill most of these players is just simply buff up your resistance and reduce their damage and find a way to heal through it. If they start to back off than go on the offensive because they are starting to run our of resources. I love going toe to toe with players who think they have the upper hand.

I've ran into a few who seem to do massive damage and take none. One player was able to stand there and block heal through two rotations than turn around and used 2-3 stamina abilities to kill me and hit like a mac truck. First off that is around 8 abilities and 8 light attacks that they were able to absorb and than wturn around and did over 35K damage when I'm fully buffed with 31K resistance, major and minor protection in thin less than 5 seconds. Even if I move out of sight they are still able to get abilities off.

I agree with some of the comments here.
#1 LOS is broken and hiding behind something other than a stone wall or wood door should not break LOS. This needs to be fixed.
#2 Dragon Knight and possibly Templar have way too much ability to heal (possibly another class or 2 also) If you can outheal the attacks of 3-5 competent players and stay alive for several minutes heals are too high in PVP, this needs to be fixed.
#3 There are some classes that simply can't compete no matter what given a player with the same amount of skill. For example mag sorc. You are disadvantaged by light armor you have to wear to get your offensive buffs. You'd have to use significant resources to boost speed to stay away from melee players who themselves are often pretty fast. If they catch you you're dead within a second or 2. So you have less max mag, sustain, and spell damage. So your burst isn't nearly as high as it could be. With everyone running around with a defensive set, Vamp level 3, and maybe a defensive monster set or mythic you really can't burst anyone decent down and kill them. Especially because heals are crazy high. So you're pretty easy to kill and you can't kill anyone but really bad players which there aren't that many of these days. There needs to be more class balance with everyone having an equal chance to survive. Players in light armor in PVP, even if they're using Pariah as a secondary set (like jewelry and weapon) have a distinct disadvantage. I know because I went from playing Mag Sorc for years to Stamblade. And even though Stamblade isn't nearly as good as DK and Templar in the current patch I can stay alive so much better than when I played mag sorc. Class balance is broken big time in PVP and part of it is heals and part is armor disparity.

HiImRex wrote: »

The problem with these kinds of threads is the blurry line between real issues and learn to play. Because there are real balance issues in the game but most of these threads are made and maintained by players who no longer want to learn or progress within the system that already exist.

As a result there’s so many wrong ideas here that it’s mind boggling.

RaT should have a cool down?? Ok that’s fine as long as you put diminishing returns on snares and roots. How is it some people don’t see the simple counter balance between roots/snares and snare removal and only ask for RaT to be nerfed?

Healing should be a separate stat? Ok then any time you don’t have a healer on your side you’re going to get rotted down. Really engaging bit of Rock Paper Scissors there. Not to mention this is going to push pure healers which are already insanely overtuned to a whole new level of boring.

Los should be removed? Great let’s remove a huge element of positioning and push the game toward a static rock paper scissor rotation between two groups trading numbers on their character sheets.

Like, anybody who has a decent understanding of game mechanics can imagine a game where the demands of this thread and threads like these are realized and see that it’ll be a horrible change to the game.

I almost hope you all get what you’re asking for, maybe only then you will see the foolishness of the changes you are championing.

lol why can't you just accept that sometimes you're going to be rooted or snared and you just have to stand and fight, your answer always seem to be that whatever I can do by clicking my one button can always 100% override whatever my opponent has done and there is NOTHING they can do to counter it.

They damage you -> my self healing should be stronger

They root you -> my purges are cheaper

And the only counter play is, well just get good and hit me harder, except you can't because I can just roll roll roll, dance dance dance. Really meaningful mechanics there. Not sure that we can classify running circles around a small crate over and over "positioning" but we'll leave that alone for now.

If you think that this does not already make it mostly a stats game then you are kidding yourself. Go roll out in a bunch of gear that's considered trash without Undeath etc and go see how well you do. What is a burst combo to you? It's your damage stats vs their resists/mitigation, the stronger of the 2 wins, it is 100% based on your stat sheet. A system where you can actually break down your opponent over time where your loss is cumulative of your many mistakes vs your opponents is more skillful than just having to one shot pop them in 1 second or else they just heal spam back to full health. Do you know how many mistakes I can currently make? A hell of a lot.

All I see is people crying that it would threaten their solo way of life in a team oriented game. I see a bunch of people only viewing how these changes would affect themselves and taking no consideration into how it would affect their opponents.

If you are kiting people around in a tower and a dps runs out of LoS from his healer it will be even easier for you to kill him since his self healing will be weaker than it is now. So what is the problem? I don't get what people are so afraid of. If you are so skilled and they are so bad this should be a frequent occurence.

Instead your suggestion is "Nerf that guys ability to receive healing from his team mate so that it's easier for me as a solo player to kill him".

Players who are truly skilled should not have any difficulty thriving in a modified environment, maybe they just need to get gud.

ehh whatever don't see any changes in the near future everyone want's to run 1vx builds probably just end up a bunch of 1vX's 1v1'n eachother until the game is dead. I'm not surprised the PvP is dying with meta's like this. Me and my friends who tried to come help populate PvP will just go playing something else. C'yall.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

[*] Sweats don't fight other sweats, there are so few people left in the game that another guy on your alliance (probably the only guy there that could have a real impact on taking this guy down) would just be standing back watching the noob army chase this one guy around in a tower, they are probably in Discord laughing about it together. Having one giant server where you have all 3 alliances that you can just swap between leaves you with zero sense of allegiance and pride for the side you're fighting for.
[/list]

^ THIS lolol. Let's not pretend that elitism doesn't exist as some claim. I've seen this behavior on streams, where creators and their friends cry "don't hit him, he's friendly!" And then completely ignore eachother and said friendly watches members of his alliance die without helping. In BGs I've played against players who, despite being on separate teams, don't attack eachother and pair up and target weaker players instead. Or teammates straight up refuse to play against their friends and guildies and whine about being on a "noob" team.

It's not always a matter of elitism. It's a matter of preference of play. Are there elitists? Sure. But not everyone is that way.

Have you considered maybe they ignore other people or the reason they don't join in alliance fights is, maybe they don't enjoy zerg gameplay? I've had fights where I'll sit out or not join in a zerg fight for my faction, because frankly 12v2ing people is not fun to me. I like challenging gameplay, which is why I'll pursue 1vx situations, not for elitism but because I enjoy challenging gameplay and nothing's more challenging in PVP than fighting tooth and nail on your own against 5-10+ people at once.
This game is advertised as a game that you "play how you want", it even says it on the ESO official beginner guide, so you shouldn't expect everyone to play only one particular way in the game.

We have been over this "play how you want" issue over many threads. You can play how you want as long as you play hybrid burst dps, everyone knows this is true. I guess it is fun for you to run over a bunch of trashcan day one players, you would rather do that than gang up against some "super elite" 2vX players. Is it because it's challenging? or is it because you can get more kills against the trashcans and the group of 2 might actually catch you in a burst combo and kill you?

@schmistertyler Hit me up when you find something worth playing

Iron_Warrior wrote: »

The answer is simple: lack of counters. Over the years ZOS destroyed the counters to these kind of playstyles.

The biggest reason for the survivability of these tanks are their healing. You could counter that before when major and minor defile provided 30% and 15% anti heal and there was a cp to boost defile. Now major and minor defile provide 16% and 8% anti heal and the defile boost cp has been removed but there are still healing boost cps in the game

Other counter was bleeds. They used to bypass armor. They were also destroyed

Another one was oblivion damage. It was not as effective as the other two but still effective cause they also could bypass armor and battlespirit did't affect them. They nerfed oblivion damage to the ground.

When you nerf the counters of a certain playstyle over and over again in any game, that playstyle will become strong.

Agreed 100%. I have been saying for a while now that oblivion damage needs to make a comeback.

Oblivion damage/enchants should be top tier against people with high hp and armor.

Defile should make healing on a DEDICATED healer, heal for less then a spammable.

Dots should hit hard enough to punish people sitting behind M2.

Most importantly of all you SHOULD NOT EVER be able to heal , tank, and burst at meta levels all on one build. Only a dedicated healer should be able to out heal damage from a dps, tanks should tickle, and dps should melt under pressure. Trying to be all three at once should make you weak in all three, not top tier.

HiImRex wrote: »

The problem with these kinds of threads is the blurry line between real issues and learn to play. Because there are real balance issues in the game but most of these threads are made and maintained by players who no longer want to learn or progress within the system that already exist.

As a result there’s so many wrong ideas here that it’s mind boggling.

RaT should have a cool down?? Ok that’s fine as long as you put diminishing returns on snares and roots. How is it some people don’t see the simple counter balance between roots/snares and snare removal and only ask for RaT to be nerfed?

Healing should be a separate stat? Ok then any time you don’t have a healer on your side you’re going to get rotted down. Really engaging bit of Rock Paper Scissors there. Not to mention this is going to push pure healers which are already insanely overtuned to a whole new level of boring.

Los should be removed? Great let’s remove a huge element of positioning and push the game toward a static rock paper scissor rotation between two groups trading numbers on their character sheets.

Like, anybody who has a decent understanding of game mechanics can imagine a game where the demands of this thread and threads like these are realized and see that it’ll be a horrible change to the game.

I almost hope you all get what you’re asking for, maybe only then you will see the foolishness of the changes you are championing.

I completely agree with this. But it seems there are a lot of new players in this thread. There was a time in the game where snares were so prevalent in every skill. When root spam had no cooldown. And the overall consensus of the pvp crowd was everyone hated it because it wasn't fun pvp. People can go back and look at the top streamers including Feng rush address this

You ask what the heck happened. Well, it was ignored and forgotten for years, pvp players were pushed out of the game by some toxic members of the community. And it saddens me that we need PR fail to receive some dev letter about pvp...

OP is not wrong at all this patch is in stark contrast to the previous high dmg, high burst patch.
People complained a lot and ZOS made adjustments to classes, items, CPs and mechanics.

Last patch using Mechanical Acuity no tank build were safe from a true "all in glass cannon build" with a decent enough player behind it.

This patch litterally ANYONE can effortlessly on a templar, dk, warden, magNB simply HOLD block and with 2 big heals go from 1% hp to 100% hp.

This combined with either too low costs on the big heals and/or too much easily obtained sustain together with changed block cost mechanics makes it quite low brow game play. [snip]

[snip] This patch they completely removed any issue of sustain from MagDKs (they dont have to worry ONE iota about their sustain its given free and with no cost or sacrifice) together with raised DPS from burning that now ticks every 500 ms instead of every 1000 ms.

Leap as a skill has been changed from a skill that you had to hide/use cleverly to not get blocked (same as Meteor), into a skill that nobody can ever block since it has too quick animation timer (when you factor in server latency). When you see the leap go off on your screen it has already hit you on the enemies screen and server. Add to that the age old knockback animation lagg that leaps provide that glitches your whole character and locks you into an animation that is lagged when the server lags. Burning talons buff. Can go on forever on MagDK but I won't. It is just the lowest of the low degenerate class of all time in any game ever. Hands down. But always hate the game not the player, if devs allow people to play with it then they will.

It is safe to say MagDK really is this patch in a nutshell [snip].

However they are tightly followed by Magtemplar (stamina templar can't heal and sustain healing in the same way since they rely on HoTs and heals from stamina jabs).

Then you have the wardens, not as effective as MagDK and Templar in 'the HOLD block and spam big heals until people stop hitting you' department. Would almost say wardens actually have to sacrifice offence when they build for similar defensive capabilities as MagDK and MagTemp get for free, almost balanced in a strange way???

All in all, big mistake tilting the game further into the tank meta, funneling everyone into the same type of builds.

New players will as OP says struggle to understand how to min-max and properly weight their new characters without the knowledge of all the previous patches and builds from the past.

One hilerious fact is that speccing defensively in the CP tree has no penalties similar to what you get from speccing offensively (battle spirit). Just a gross oversight from the devs in charge of balancing. Really makes you wounder.

TSTU: You get more bang for your CP buck if you invest them defensively. Offence don't matter much if you still can't kill another average player, so instead it all revolves around "trapping" eachother in 5:1 situations and or spamming RAT endlessely together with HOLD block and spam big heal until people give up trying to zerg you.

We have soon reached the point in this patch cycle were the "average player" can no longer kill another "average" player unless bringing 4-5-6 vs 1 numbers making it 1 vs 6 (because people are so tanky and there is no other alternative then to also build tanky in response).

TLDR:

Looking forward to the next patch classic ZOS "knee jerk reaction" into a burst META.

[edited for baiting]

/edit
It is one thing to remove what you deem as offensive words, but removing whole segments of text to change the whole outcome and point when it hits a nerve, is not moderating its censorship.
Might as well post threads on this forum with a link to reddit to have our discussions there, free of heavy handed censorship.

Sneakers wrote: »

OP is not wrong at all this patch is in stark contrast to the previous high dmg, high burst patch.
People complained a lot and ZOS made adjustments to classes, items, CPs and mechanics.

Last patch using Mechanical Acuity no tank build were safe from a true "all in glass cannon build" with a decent enough player behind it.

This patch litterally ANYONE can effortlessly on a templar, dk, warden, magNB simply HOLD block and with 2 big heals go from 1% hp to 100% hp.

This combined with either too low costs on the big heals and/or too much easily obtained sustain together with changed block cost mechanics makes it quite low brow game play. [snip]

[snip] This patch they completely removed any issue of sustain from MagDKs (they dont have to worry ONE iota about their sustain its given free and with no cost or sacrifice) together with raised DPS from burning that now ticks every 500 ms instead of every 1000 ms.

Leap as a skill has been changed from a skill that you had to hide/use cleverly to not get blocked (same as Meteor), into a skill that nobody can ever block since it has too quick animation timer (when you factor in server latency). When you see the leap go off on your screen it has already hit you on the enemies screen and server. Add to that the age old knockback animation lagg that leaps provide that glitches your whole character and locks you into an animation that is lagged when the server lags. Burning talons buff. Can go on forever on MagDK but I won't. It is just the lowest of the low degenerate class of all time in any game ever. Hands down. But always hate the game not the player, if devs allow people to play with it then they will.

It is safe to say MagDK really is this patch in a nutshell [snip].

However they are tightly followed by Magtemplar (stamina templar can't heal and sustain healing in the same way since they rely on HoTs and heals from stamina jabs).

Then you have the wardens, not as effective as MagDK and Templar in 'the HOLD block and spam big heals until people stop hitting you' department. Would almost say wardens actually have to sacrifice offence when they build for similar defensive capabilities as MagDK and MagTemp get for free, almost balanced in a strange way???

All in all, big mistake tilting the game further into the tank meta, funneling everyone into the same type of builds.

New players will as OP says struggle to understand how to min-max and properly weight their new characters without the knowledge of all the previous patches and builds from the past.

One hilerious fact is that speccing defensively in the CP tree has no penalties similar to what you get from speccing offensively (battle spirit). Just a gross oversight from the devs in charge of balancing. Really makes you wounder.

TSTU: You get more bang for your CP buck if you invest them defensively. Offence don't matter much if you still can't kill another average player, so instead it all revolves around "trapping" eachother in 5:1 situations and or spamming RAT endlessely together with HOLD block and spam big heal until people give up trying to zerg you.

We have soon reached the point in this patch cycle were the "average player" can no longer kill another "average" player unless bringing 4-5-6 vs 1 numbers making it 1 vs 6 (because people are so tanky and there is no other alternative then to also build tanky in response).

TLDR:

Looking forward to the next patch classic ZOS "knee jerk reaction" into a burst META.

The previous patch was one of the worst patches of the game for pvp. Mechanical acuity was broken and everyone knew it, that's why it got nerfed. Magdk and magplar are indeed a bit overtuned and people recognize that but the whole game shouldn't be reworked because of that.

Leap has too quick an animation? since when. Every ult ability in that game now has a cast time. Before when animation canceling was more prevalent, you'd be able to hit them instantly. Back then if you made a mistake, you died and that was it.

[edited to remove quote]

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

The previous patch was one of the worst patches of the game for pvp. Mechanical acuity was broken and everyone knew it, that's why it got nerfed. Magdk and magplar are indeed a bit overtuned and people recognize that but the whole game shouldn't be reworked because of that.

Leap has too quick an animation? since when. Every ult ability in that game now has a cast time. Before when animation canceling was more prevalent, you'd be able to hit them instantly. Back then if you made a mistake, you died and that was it.

Well I dissagree with your statement that last patch was the worst. It was the best if you disregard the Hrothgar + DC debacle. Mechanics and balance wise it was the best that we had in 2 years time considering balance between tank and glass cannon and healing.

Tanks got rekt big time by well built glass cannons using MA which was very good balance. Hybrid brawlers that could avoid MA window rekt the glass cannons and healers could heal vs MA but couldnt do it forever, if they got caught under 100% in a MA window they died, good balance.

Now is a joke compared to that. If your not a MagDK tank your playing to loose (might still have fun but if you play to win you play Magdk this patch).

Regarding leap, anyone who played for a while KNOW for a fact leap operates outside of any of the standardized timers that for example dawnbreaker, incap, soul tether, ballista, other bow spam ability, necro colossus and so on have.

Leap triggers so much faster now then pre they started tinkering with it. Leap invokes a hidden snare (similar to the BUGGED blast bones snare they fixed) that creates desynch lag for you.
Whole DK community was crying endlessly about "boho our leap gets blocked all the time" so ZOS secretly (never mentioned in patch notes) fixed that and speeded up the animation to the point were you might reactionally block 0 leaps in 5 hours and the ones you do are pure luck because you are blocking something else.

The server lag currently do not allow for a reactionary block, it is impossible. On a daily basis I start blocking a leap as soon as I see the wings. When the leap hits me I have been blocking the entire animation and still I take full damage and get knock back. I would say 99% of the leaps are this way when reactionally blocking it.

Meteor a similar ability to leap in terms of its effect (damage and knockback) is blocked a lot and have counter play. Leap on the other hand lol, un-avoidable and it has also more damage then meteor gives limitesless sustain for DKs and so on.
Average meteor TT on damage sorc/other class is around 19-21k TT. Leap is around 28-35k TT dmg and has 0 counter play.

I am not gonna argue this any further, either you see it my way and agree or you don't.

The knee jerk reaction is comming, the tank meta atm is higher then it has ever been. Waiting for a tank killer set next patch or revert of MA nerf. Either way burst is comming back.

While agree with message in general, would argue on two points.

Larcomar wrote: »

I'm not sure I'm seeing huge changes in sustain across the board. It's magdks that got a buff here. The rest of my toons feel about where they were. But even if there was easily obtained sustain, do we all really want to be constantly running out of resources? That doesn't sound like much fun to me.

Aside from double charged DK (which is pretty insane sustain boost btw, hitting 3 enemies with AoE is like ~66% to proc), there is Wretched Vitality. Which is fine I guess, it's only in combat and only if you cast something, but it's also backbar set.

And yes, I want to be able to outsustain enemies. That means getting on the levels of sustain where you can spam each second nonstop shouldn't be easy.

Larcomar wrote: »

Right now, combat is fun and tactical. Sure it's got it's problems, but fights actually feel like fights rather than one player just popping a pot and nuking another player down in two seconds.

While I do enjoy PvP now, it's far from tactical.
I mean lol, I took my DK to IC a day ago.
I haven't died once.
I had plenty of 1vs1's on the boss. We stood there, fighting each other for 5 minutes, until the boss dies, and then just moving in different directions silently.

IDK, I like when players die. That doesn't have to be burst.
But look, DPS is LoS'able, and DPS chars are less tough and can often be bursted even by bruisers.

Healthy meta would mean that abstract *fighter* archetype (min-max everything for ideal 1vs1) is about 27k with about 25k armors and some mitigations. We are currently tougher than that. Min-max ends up in 35k without any substantial damage or healing loss. This isn't right.

I am not gonna get into never ending discussions on when Leap was changed (I would guess around U26-27 the tinkering started). If you have been active in pvp for the last two years you know I am right.

People who have stuck with their DKs also for SURE have noticed that now all of a sudden 90% of the leaps hit people and they can even hit people 2-3 times after a leap lands - compared to one year ago when 50% of leaps were blocked that they popped off in "obvious situations".
This is just there for everyone who actually pvps to see. Some patches ago ZOS also changed the way the game flows, animations and so on, this was around the time of the Cyro testing. Now we are used to this but the game flow was way different before that change. I bet 90% don't even know what I am talking about because you don't notice details in the game and or have gotten so used to it that you don't even remember that change anymore.

Leap is completly out of control at the moment that its not even funny. It probably have been allowed to stay like that because DKs have been quite limited in the past due to their problems with sustain, now when that is gone (completely gone, I don't think a DK can run out of resources as it currently is) it isn't justified to let it circumvent the timers that apply for dawnbreaker and other abils.

You don't even have to believe one word I say, just wait a cople of weeks when the broad mass has completed their MagDKs too and the whole game is only Magdks and Magtemplars, the occasional Magnecro will be around as well.

When it comes to META, and what ZOS should use as a META for PvP. I am a firm believer that many differnt play styles should be viable, but the burst meta has to be the premier one for one simple reason:

Burst is a meta that has the most "skill". Well not skill, but revolves around catching other people sleeping. Long stale fights can end quick because one party gets physically and mentally fatigued, or the other party goes outside of their rotation and traps the other into reacting in a way that basically kills themsevles.

In a DPS or dot meta the classes with the most dots can load up on their enemy together with the highest burst healing capability will always win. It becomes a game revolving around dotting people up and then they either can outheal it indefinitely or they can't. This means Tanky AF players who will use dots and aoe dots and "the most cancerous forms of CC" to create desynchs and then ball zerg people with it since they also don't have enough BURST to kill anyone 1v1.

I mean why have we not seen a real back blow of a tsunami of stamina necros using their "free purge" to bonk the "balanced Tank MagDKs"?

I will say it, it is neanderthal gaming (mod you can change this: to bad game design). It is a mistake to tilt the game towards such a meta. All aspects should exist and be viable but dps dot meta cannot be premier, sorry it is a dead end even if its funny to run around on ur MagDK and spam:

Engulfing flames, burning embers, eruption, volatile armor, Burning talons, burning talons synergry, burning effect, degenerate like a degenerate with a 6-7k combined dps and then lag leap people and spam molten whip

Regarding big heals, it is small potatoes for DKs to critical heal with coag for 15k in Cyro near a keep with heal % CP blue tree, powered on backbar and their self major healing buff.

Mag necros can in Cyro heal for like 20k with a critical on their big heal, this is not even a controversial statement.

See you in the burst meta, it is inevitable with a huge knee jerk swing at this point.

schmistertyler wrote: »

I'm just curious... When new players come to the game with squads of friends to bring more population to PvP and they proceed to get 1v7'd by a DK that seems to take no damage. Do you think they will be inclined to continue playing this game? Nope. I wonder why everyone says PvP is dying... wait a minute...

Yeah, you are wrong here. When I was a new player, exactly this happend, several times. But we knew that we were new and that we didnt have proper equipment nor were totally leveled up or even understood the game totally.

It is much worse in most other games than it was ever in ESO for us, because even we died, we could stand the enemy at least for a while and we knew that it is because of a lack of a proper build, experience, proper gear and so on. Also we knew that we could improve. Some of us have seen that even as challenge.

But on the other hand what is really broken in PVP is ganking and cloak of nightblades. This truely drives away many new players. Just ask PVE players who ever set foot into PVP (for example during PVP events), especially Imperial City. One of the first things you will hear are nightblades and their invisibility and ganking bs.

This drives new players away, because without knowing beforehand that you might be ganked and exactly knowing the counters there is no counterplay for new players than being tanky (what might be one of the root causes for tanky builds to get back to the topic).Even knowing the counters, you have to build specifically against nightblades - the only class that really makes something like this necessary and even then its not always reliable.

Just look at low MMR (or even < CP) Battlegrounds where truely new players play or even try out PVP for the first time, what havok nightblades do there and no new player (maybe except of templars and rare stamsorcs) will even be able to deal with it or counter it. While they also have no chance against experienced players of others classes, they at least can fight them, improve, see whats happening and just dont die out of nowhere (one of the most discouraging thing that can happen for new players).

If anyone is really serious about the experience of new players this is one of the things that needs to be fixed before anything else.