The Heals Are Too Damn Strong

Amottica · January 2022

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I disagree about heals being strong. Focused DPS will always overpower heals but yes, I would expect teams to focus enemy healers first! If healers didn’t have the potential to make a difference in a match, then I don’t know why anyone would wish to play one in PVP and that would be a shame.

I agree. I’d also add that time and time again across many MMORPGs I’ve seen players try to focus down a healer (me) and fail. Either they don’t have the group focus the healer or they don’t interupt big heals (in other games) or debuff healing in the case of ESO.

Dem_kitkats1 · January 2022

HiImRex wrote: »

Part of the beauty of eso combat is the high skill ceiling and self sufficiency you can bring to the table. Play the game with nerfed self heals I.e. lowbie BGs and you’ll see how uninteresting the combat becomes.

It’s absolutely not a problem that you can 1v3 IF you play much better than the 3. That’s part of the allure of ESO pvp, having a high skill cap that allows you to pull off victories against the odds. YOU can be the guy doing the 1v3 instead of asking for that to become fundamentally impossible by matter of design.

Imagine in WoW 3v3 arenas when one of your teammates died you instantly lost the match because “2v3 should not be allowed to win fights as a matter of game design so we’re going to make it impossible”. Imagine in League of Legends when one guy starts carrying his team the game removes one of his abilities at random because “1v5 should not be allowed as a matter of game design”. How about literally any other pvp game out there? The best moments in any of those games is pulling out a win from behind by superior play. How is this a problem in eso pvp specifically? Explain this to me.

Cross healing is an issue when too much of it is stacked together in BGs. Again, much simpler to fix by nerfing heals received from others via battle spirit.

Honestly I am someone who actually had a lot of fun in lowbies, and I know there are others who feel the same way. This is because the healing was so much lower, you had to be more mindful about sustain, and players had to use different skills and sets because not all were available to them yet. And because of these factors fights were more diverse and dynamic. In max BGs or in PvP in general the ability to diversify is completely gone. People are pigeon holed in to only choosing hybrid dps toons that can do massive damage and outheal everyone else solo because that's the only way to be effective. So then you get these metas every patch where people are running the same 2 classes with the same combo of sets and skills and the cycle continues over and over again. This is why players lose the incentive to play and jump ship when new PvP content comes out.

Cross healing wouldn't be such a problem if all classes didn't have access to so much self healing on top of that. By nerfing cross healing in general you punish support healing roles which diminishes variety in PvP forcing people to strictly play damage dealers, which becomes just a mash of people trying to brawl it out in tickle fights consisting of players abusing LoS until someone's combo crits or their opponent runs out of sustain or just gets annoyed and walks away from being unable to get through the spamming of self heals and shields. I also don't think team play should be penalized in a game that was designed for team play. So, yes, I don't believe 1 player should be able to take on 3 others easily. One player built for damage shouldn't so easily be able to outheal the damage of 2 or 3 well built players. 1vX shouldn't be impossible by any means, but it should be an uphill battle.

Amottica wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I disagree about heals being strong. Focused DPS will always overpower heals but yes, I would expect teams to focus enemy healers first! If healers didn’t have the potential to make a difference in a match, then I don’t know why anyone would wish to play one in PVP and that would be a shame.

I agree. I’d also add that time and time again across many MMORPGs I’ve seen players try to focus down a healer (me) and fail. Either they don’t have the group focus the healer or they don’t interupt big heals (in other games) or debuff healing in the case of ESO.

The problem in ESO is that debuffs are not strong enough for the amount of healing and purges that classes have at the moment.

YoureWrongImRight · January 2022

HiImRex wrote: »

Part of the beauty of eso combat is the high skill ceiling and self sufficiency you can bring to the table. Play the game with nerfed self heals I.e. lowbie BGs and you’ll see how uninteresting the combat becomes.

It’s absolutely not a problem that you can 1v3 IF you play much better than the 3. That’s part of the allure of ESO pvp, having a high skill cap that allows you to pull off victories against the odds. YOU can be the guy doing the 1v3 instead of asking for that to become fundamentally impossible by matter of design.

Imagine in WoW 3v3 arenas when one of your teammates died you instantly lost the match because “2v3 should not be allowed to win fights as a matter of game design so we’re going to make it impossible”. Imagine in League of Legends when one guy starts carrying his team the game removes one of his abilities at random because “1v5 should not be allowed as a matter of game design”. How about literally any other pvp game out there? The best moments in any of those games is pulling out a win from behind by superior play. How is this a problem in eso pvp specifically? Explain this to me.

Cross healing is an issue when too much of it is stacked together in BGs. Again, much simpler to fix by nerfing heals received from others via battle spirit.

I fail to see how you think ESO has a high skill ceiling, if anything the skill ceiling is lower than almost any other game I have played in the last 20 years and that is the main part of its allure. It's extremely easy to jump in and make good progress with minimal time investment as the mechanics are simple to learn and the content is generally fairly easy.

The most effective way to play is a simple Timmy Two Thumbs way of playing where you can just spam dodge roll and overwhelming self healing abities to mitigate basically all damage to get yourself out of bad situations that should by rights be unsurvivable. Once you learn the basics of surviving in ESO PvP which become obvious in your first day you can survive overwhelming amounts of pressure that are just ridiculous. Okay I will just dance around this post, spam the same heal button over and over, toss a couple dodge rolls in there, okay I'm reset back to full.

My honest opinion of the self healing in this game is that it is a crutch to make up for bad play, yes I will say it, bad play. It allows you to engage in bad situations without discretion and have a nice crutch to fall back on to get yourself out of it. It's okay, if this starts to go bad I can just spam these 2 buttons and probably escape.

Just because I think these are bad crutch mechanics does not mean I am not having success with them. I don't think there's really anybody left in PvP who is not having success with them as everyone else has quit for the most part due to frustration. I use the same LoS heal spam techniques that everyone else is using, that doesn't mean they aren't ridiculous. The game encourages this through its poorly thought out mechanics.

Basically what you're suggesting is that teams should be penalized for working together. We need to reduce their ability to assist one another so that it is even easier for a single person to take down multiple targets.

Why have you lost one of your team mates in your 3v3 battle? You started off on equal footing and obviously made a mistake, that's why you lost someone, you got out played, and you are now at a disadvantage. Why are we trying to compensate for poor team work by buffing the individual and reducing the effectiveness of actual team work. Team work should be rewarded and not penalized.

How does a carry get to the strength to be able to 5v1? It is based on other team members sacrifices for the entire match leading up to that. It is based on team work. The guy doesn't just walk out in the first minute at lvl 1 and 1v5 everyone. The team makes that happen through working towards a common goal and all members performing their role well.

Iriidius · January 2022

A duell lasting 10 minutes can be boring but why should one of the duellants die if he doesnt make a mistake like getting hit by a burst combo or too many other attacks?
I rately die to burst but really often get killed by pressure.
Making healing scale with a seperate stat and not with wpn dmg and stamina will make (groups with) healers stronger and solo players/groups without healer weaker. As a solo player you have not enaugh healing anyway. If a solo player can outheal damage by 10 players then he has to be much stronger than the 10 players. Probably non of the 10 players can outheal 10 players, probably they cant even outheal the player that outhealed them.

YoureWrongImRight · January 2022

Iriidius wrote: »

A duell lasting 10 minutes can be boring but why should one of the duellants die if he doesnt make a mistake like getting hit by a burst combo or too many other attacks?
I rately die to burst but really often get killed by pressure.
Making healing scale with a seperate stat and not with wpn dmg and stamina will make (groups with) healers stronger and solo players/groups without healer weaker. As a solo player you have not enaugh healing anyway. If a solo player can outheal damage by 10 players then he has to be much stronger than the 10 players. Probably non of the 10 players can outheal 10 players, probably they cant even outheal the player that outhealed them.

You should die because that is meaningful design, the choices you have made have impact. If you go for high burst then you are relying on that to take down your target quickly, and to gain that damage you had to sacrafice defenses and or sustain so you cannot last in a drawn out fight. Right now nobody has any decision to make. Everyone runs the same gear, has 30k+ health, 7k+ weapon damage, amazing self healing and sustain. Zero concessions have been made.

1v10 is possible because of multiple factors that include self healing. Coupled with LoS abuse these are extremely powerful tools that make for long boring and frustrating engagements. They are not actually being hit by 10 people simultaneously. Most of the time only 3 or 4 of the targets can actually hit the person while the others are chasing them around unable to have any attacks actually land because of LoS breaking. Meanwhile the 1 guy is just running back and forth in a tight area spamming healing abilities that can easily brush off the damage of only a few attackers landing at any given time. He is basically getting no kills but they cannot kill him either. Eventually he might notice that one is weaker than the others, gets a burst combo off and gets one kill, and so the boring dance continues.

Groups with healers would absolutely have an advantage in what they are skilled at... healing. This makes perfect sense as they have made sacrifices in terms of their damage output to achieve that healing. Can they play well enough to outdo the extra damage you are gaining by choosing to slot a DPS instead, that is the question.

You have made a concession to achieve more damage, they have made one to achieve more healing. How you perform in a confrontation now depends on how well you play to those strengths. They have lower dps output, but should be able to take you down over time in a sustained engagement. You are taking the opposite approach. It doesn't need to be better or worse, it is different. Maybe your burst is high enough with your extra dps that you can get him down very quickly. How you play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses is what separates skilled players from unskilled.

The issue is that with the current meta you don't need to have any weaknesses.

The 10 players do not have the tools available to them to actually take the guy down. When he can just span channeled excel and vigor essentially indefinitely. You cannot slow him down he is running at max speed through tight spaces. Defile buffs are not effective enough to reduce his healing output in any meaningful way. The only tool they have is stun which is just immediately broken free from.

Amottica · January 2022

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I disagree about heals being strong. Focused DPS will always overpower heals but yes, I would expect teams to focus enemy healers first! If healers didn’t have the potential to make a difference in a match, then I don’t know why anyone would wish to play one in PVP and that would be a shame.

I agree. I’d also add that time and time again across many MMORPGs I’ve seen players try to focus down a healer (me) and fail. Either they don’t have the group focus the healer or they don’t interupt big heals (in other games) or debuff healing in the case of ESO.

The problem in ESO is that debuffs are not strong enough for the amount of healing and purges that classes have at the moment.

Since people do die, including healers, then there does not seem to be a major issue with the design of heals.

YoureWrongImRight · January 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I disagree about heals being strong. Focused DPS will always overpower heals but yes, I would expect teams to focus enemy healers first! If healers didn’t have the potential to make a difference in a match, then I don’t know why anyone would wish to play one in PVP and that would be a shame.

I agree. I’d also add that time and time again across many MMORPGs I’ve seen players try to focus down a healer (me) and fail. Either they don’t have the group focus the healer or they don’t interupt big heals (in other games) or debuff healing in the case of ESO.

The problem in ESO is that debuffs are not strong enough for the amount of healing and purges that classes have at the moment.

Since people do die, including healers, then there does not seem to be a major issue with the design of heals.

Do you take any consideration into why and how they die?

Just saying that people die so it must be fine is weak. They die to what? getting one shotted where nothing could have saved them anyway? That doesn't mean it's fine how it is.

Some people die, and some people don't die, therefore all mechanics are fine as is?

Amottica · January 2022

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I disagree about heals being strong. Focused DPS will always overpower heals but yes, I would expect teams to focus enemy healers first! If healers didn’t have the potential to make a difference in a match, then I don’t know why anyone would wish to play one in PVP and that would be a shame.

I agree. I’d also add that time and time again across many MMORPGs I’ve seen players try to focus down a healer (me) and fail. Either they don’t have the group focus the healer or they don’t interupt big heals (in other games) or debuff healing in the case of ESO.

The problem in ESO is that debuffs are not strong enough for the amount of healing and purges that classes have at the moment.

Since people do die, including healers, then there does not seem to be a major issue with the design of heals.

Do you take any consideration into why and how they die?

Just saying that people die so it must be fine is weak. They die to what? getting one shotted where nothing could have saved them anyway? That doesn't mean it's fine how it is.

Some people die, and some people don't die, therefore all mechanics are fine as is?

No. I am not talking about players dying to ganking. I don’t gank. That’s indicative of nothing which it seems we both agree.

I’ve seen two organized groups of similar size ans both has healers. The fight took minutes, not seconds, but players died. In the end, only one group was left standing.

Does having a healer in your group, Cyrodiil and BGs, give you and advantage, certainly. But it doesn’t any guarantees and a players skill is still most important.

YoureWrongImRight · January 2022

All of us have had matches that go the full 15 minutes without either side even scoring the 500 points to win. That actually seems like more the norm lately and not the exception. This is without even having a dedicated healer on any side.

So what is the issue here? Everyone just sucks and can't get any kills? or is it that the healing and damage mitigation is just way too high and easy to achieve.

Any time you are about to kill someone it's just, break roll heal roll roll heal roll roll heal LoS heal LoS heal roll

IncultaWolf · January 2022

Instead of nerfing healing, we should be asking zos to buff defile

olsborg · January 2022

Id prefer if they toned down healing somewhat. But at the same time keep in mind the classes that dont have good class heals/purges, sorc and nb.

YoureWrongImRight · January 2022

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Instead of nerfing healing, we should be asking zos to buff defile

I believe this was suggested higher up and should be the first step for sure, double the effects of major/minor defile, nobody goes out of there way to get these because they're not worth it.

Increase class ability to access purge. Such as get rid of siphon from the resto staff line and put purge there, nobody even uses siphon as it's regarded as a trash skill, change to cost less than 8k magicka like it currently is in the support line. Templars have too much of a leg up on everyone else in this regard.

Personally I would also like to see buff sheering potentially in the support line in place of purge, the ability to strip buffs from an opponent. Some buffs would obviously be immune e.g goliath form, magma armor etc. Things that are reasonable like HoT's, Major sorcery, armor buffs on timers should be able to be stripped causing you to have to reapply them. This would give healers a way more important role as they would be performing this function in PvP.