The state of the meta

$spacefracking$ · October 2021

I am utterly bewildered at the choice to center the entire meta on a single set. Every battle, whether bg's or cyrodiil, zerg v zerg, or small group v any. It's just dark convergence with aoes on top.

Even before the launch of that which will not be named, long time solo players, and those who liked having fun in pugs have left. It is a sad state.

The only thing this seems to cater to is people organizing on discord, or pew-pew-ing from the walls against pugs. (or helping pugs, by pew-pew-ing walls). Most siege is irrelevant now. On CC cooldown, its DC.

Absolutely mind blowing. I've had to go back to PVE after a long time. I would be fascinated to learn how this was playtested.

ResidentContrarian · October 2021

Well therein lies the problem, it wasn't really tested.

Well it was, but all the complaints were ignored.

I honestly don't understand the logic behind the sets. In the previous patch before dark convergence, players were complaining about player bombing by NBs and how it was "out of control."

So the next patch ZOS nerfs NB bombing, then in the same patch introduces sets that makes everyone a bomber.

NB bombing was at least limited by having to build up ult, where dark convergence has a CD that is irrelevant.

NB bombing also didn't have a pull mechanic and you could still counter the NBs doing it.

Dark Convergence doesn't have any real counter and it desyncs all the time, going through block, exploding more than once for over 20k damage on even a single target, pulls more than once, pulls with an infinite range (not patched on live at the time of writing), an unlimited amount of players can stack it, and unlimited amount of times it can be applied with no penalty, and tank builds can also effectively use the set.

Can anyone help me understand how that is logically sound? NB bombing was broken and needed a nerf, but the set is not ? I cannot find the logic...

Larcomar · October 2021

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Can anyone help me understand how that is logically sound? NB bombing was broken and needed a nerf, but the set is not ? I cannot find the logic...

OK. I'll take that challenge. I think it's actually pretty simple. Zos are not - pace most people on this forum - idiots. They know exactly what they're doing. They're a multi billion dollar company for x sake.

Trying to balance pvp alongside pve with like 400 different sets is, at best, a ton of work, at worst, virtually impossible. And you know pvp'rs are going to complain. About *everything*.

So what you do is simplify things by taking 95% of the sets out of the equation. Then all you have to do is balance 6 or so classes - making sure of course that the new ones people have to buy are, shall we say, more balanced than other classes.

Ofc, people aren't going to be happy if you just take their sets away. They ground out long hours for them, invested a lot of mats and well, they're pvp'rs. They like to get vocal.

So you introduce a "test" so everyone can get used to the idea. Then you announce that, because like 10 guys on the forums liked it, and held a fake polll where they all agreed with each other, you're going to make it permanent.

Then... Oh ok, the plan went a bit wrong there. Because it turned out the rest of the playerbase didn't like it, and actually managed to finally find the forum and went ape ***.

But hey. You just go to plan B. You don't force players to give up their sets. You give players the choice - you can play proc or no proc. But given how the last plan went though, you want a little bit of insurance. So what you do is introduce the most egregious proc set in the history of egregiousness to just, you know, give everyone a little nudge. To make the right decision. Which will, of course, masivvely reduce the amount of resources they have to invest in balancing pvp in the future.....

Simples....

DrSlaughtr · October 2021

Most people are not running DC. It just seems that way because it can proc so often and there's usually at least one in every organized group. Don't get me wrong. It's a garbage set and it's actually being used to great effect by the very groups it was meant to combat. But I wouldn't call it meta.

PVP meta is a lot more varied than PvE. When I'm running in my NB group, most of us are running competely different setups.

xylena_lazarow · October 2021

Heal stacking groups are no less immortal, and faction stacks are no less unstoppable. The only thing this set has really added to Cyrodiil is random pulls and damage spikes. Meanwhile, Hrothgar died for DCon's sins.

jerj6925 · October 2021

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Heal stacking groups are no less immortal, and faction stacks are no less unstoppable. The only thing this set has really added to Cyrodiil is random pulls and damage spikes. Meanwhile, Hrothgar died for DCon's sins.

Hrothgar was such an easy set to counter or avoid that proc... I would have rather seen this set remain untouched and DC nerfed. the longer Hrothgar was in use the more people were getting better at avoiding the proc.

MEBengalsFan2001 · October 2021

spacefracking wrote: »

I am utterly bewildered at the choice to center the entire meta on a single set. Every battle, whether bg's or cyrodiil, zerg v zerg, or small group v any. It's just dark convergence with aoes on top.

Even before the launch of that which will not be named, long time solo players, and those who liked having fun in pugs have left. It is a sad state.

The only thing this seems to cater to is people organizing on discord, or pew-pew-ing from the walls against pugs. (or helping pugs, by pew-pew-ing walls). Most siege is irrelevant now. On CC cooldown, its DC.

Absolutely mind blowing. I've had to go back to PVE after a long time. I would be fascinated to learn how this was playtested.

Lately I've seen less DC kill me and more Plaguebreak because I'm standing near a Templar, Necro or Warden using a cleansing ability.

neferpitou73 · October 2021

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

I am utterly bewildered at the choice to center the entire meta on a single set. Every battle, whether bg's or cyrodiil, zerg v zerg, or small group v any. It's just dark convergence with aoes on top.

Even before the launch of that which will not be named, long time solo players, and those who liked having fun in pugs have left. It is a sad state.

The only thing this seems to cater to is people organizing on discord, or pew-pew-ing from the walls against pugs. (or helping pugs, by pew-pew-ing walls). Most siege is irrelevant now. On CC cooldown, its DC.

Absolutely mind blowing. I've had to go back to PVE after a long time. I would be fascinated to learn how this was playtested.

Lately I've seen less DC kill me and more Plaguebreak because I'm standing near a Templar, Necro or Warden using a cleansing ability.

I can tell you that the people organizing on discord hate it as well, but just use it because it's ridiculously OP. I'm not sure who even likes this set as a gameplay mechanic to be honest.

ResidentContrarian · October 2021

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

I am utterly bewildered at the choice to center the entire meta on a single set. Every battle, whether bg's or cyrodiil, zerg v zerg, or small group v any. It's just dark convergence with aoes on top.

Even before the launch of that which will not be named, long time solo players, and those who liked having fun in pugs have left. It is a sad state.

The only thing this seems to cater to is people organizing on discord, or pew-pew-ing from the walls against pugs. (or helping pugs, by pew-pew-ing walls). Most siege is irrelevant now. On CC cooldown, its DC.

Absolutely mind blowing. I've had to go back to PVE after a long time. I would be fascinated to learn how this was playtested.

Lately I've seen less DC kill me and more Plaguebreak because I'm standing near a Templar, Necro or Warden using a cleansing ability.

Proof purge was thoughtless before. Why purge when there is no DoT you can't outheal in the game anyway on those classes?

doesurmindglow · October 2021

I mean, you applauded this choice specifically, lest we forget:

Screen_Shot_2021-10-08_at_2.54.18_AM.png

Others among us (myself included) were far more cautious, and accurately predicted that these sets being introduced would buff, rather than nerf, groups coordinating on Discord:

I'm not trying to be petty but I do think ZOS needs to stop giving so much weight to players on the forums when so many people here clearly do not understand how big changes are going to play out when they ask for them. They need to do a better job of identifying the difference between player feedback that is more thoughtful or at least based on years of experience from feedback that is more surface-level and reactionary.

What's clearly happened in this meta is that they've come up with simplistic balancing response to a complex issue: that is, an overpowered set bonus that is allegedly intended to close the skill gap between casual, disorganized players and sweatier, more coordinated groups. Set bonuses alone cannot realistically do that. What they should be looking at is tools to make it easier for players who want to organize into groups to do so and be competitive in open world against other groups, or admitting instead they prefer to develop opportunities for smaller scale group play by creating game modes that intentionally facilitate it, like larger battlegrounds or something.

Trying to come up with a series of set bonuses that would reliably allow a casual player running solo to take down an experienced group coordinating its tactics in Discord was always a mistake. It just does not work that way, and it introduces myriad new problems when you try to make it work like that.

$spacefracking$ · October 2021

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I mean, you applauded this choice specifically, lest we forget:

Hmmmm. Had to really look back in time for this one. This was my original reaction, the day after the first iteration of patch notes were dropped.

It appears my take was wrong, and I, and everyone else, are experiencing it now that we've played this meta. Between the bugs in Hrothgar, the powerful siege capabilities of dark convergence, the spammable nature and power of dark convergence, I think it is clear that these attempts at solving real problems experienced in the game had profound, and unexpected, problems in pvp.

I'm not going to go into my takes after playing this meta, as I've discussed it I'm game, and on this forum, but I think my take since release has been quite clear.

At first reading, the day after initial patch notes were dropped, my initial reading lead me to the conclusion that these sets were targeted at real problems in the balance of, at least, cyrodiil balance. I'm practice, this particular implementation of a solution did not produce the desired results.

Anyway, we've all played this patch now, and I don't think whatever this quoting was meant to suggest is true in my reaction since the release. I thought the patch notes looked cool. Anyway, chill, I don't understand this attempt at what appears to be, like, recrimination or something. I had some optimism when they dropped, which is a good thing in the sea of pessimism, griping, and fatalism that pervades far too many.

I doubt the people, who created these sets, were madly cackling knowing the meta we now experience. And I wasn't cackling either.

Cheers.