The True Issue with PVP

Thannazzar · September 2021

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

rbfrgsp · September 2021

Fast burst kills are often erroneously referred to as 'ganking'. Weaving a 4- or 5-hit single-target kill combo should be the hardest skill to master in the game. If it isn't, that's on the gameplay team.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · September 2021

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

Ganking at least requires the player to have good game sense and they got to push at least 1 button. TANKING on the other hand is the epitome of power>skill. Your raw defense is so high that you could literally stand still, push zero buttons, and survive longer. The average tank player wouldn't be able to gank at all they are too used to crutching on their armor and hp to win fights. Their procs do all their damage and their armor/hp does all their survival for them. Trash that belongs in pve.

Look at a genre like FPS's where skill is everything. TTK is always extremely low. Players in fps's need to react fast, have a good game sense, need to actually aim, need good positioning, and they need to use cover. Ganking also requires all of those things. Ganking is ironically the closest thing to skill in this entire game. People just hate it because its one of the few ways people who have been crutching on power can get out played and outsmarted. They put everything into passive defense, pure power, and then get smoked in 1 combo by a ganker, so they RAGE. All that effort they put in grinding cp or defensive sets gets slapped away in 1 second. They can't react fast, they are too lazy to keep their defenses up, they throw themselves into horrible positions, and don't pay any attention because they don't have to.

The ganker on the other hand has to react instantly, has to be in cover at all times, they need to stay in strong positions to not get spotted, and have to keep their head on a swivel to not get snuck up on. No matter how many times we get nerfed we still keep killing because stats and numbers ain't got anything to do with our playstyle. Its Sun Tzu in the form of an mmo playstyle.

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”- Sun Tzu
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”- Sun Tzu
“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”- Sun Tzu
“In the Midst of Chaos, There Is Also Opportunity”- Sun Tzu
He is literally describing ganking here, “If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.”-Sun Tzu

Tanklets are too dense to use strategy and tactics, only raw power. No skill, no tactics, no strategy, NO HOPE. No nerf will ever be enough as long as we continue playing this game. Keep that block up, keep panic rolling even inside an empty keep, but the second you stop I will be there waiting.

Thannazzar · September 2021

I take your point re Tanklets however...

The essence of Ganking is to appear from stealth, deliver 5-6 LA weave abilities faster than the enemy can react and kill them.

I can understand where that may be a test of a players math skills in building towards that outcome, and a test of their reflexes to deliver the right button presses in sequence (if they are not using macros).

But if they achieve their desired outcome they are not actually fighting another player, they may as well just be parsing against a dummy, that's not player vs player combat. Its not matching skill with another player its effectively just trying to overpower them with gear and optimization.

Its an affirmation that what the ganking player wants is not a test of skill, or competition, just a victory, that is particularly true when a player using that play style complains about those with sufficient resistance, armor and health to counter their tactic, they are actively avoiding combat or even the opportunity of combat with another player because all they are after is an easy victory, not a test of skill.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

Table-top wargames require the player to study their chosen army's rulebook and figure out a composition, and to collect and assemble the miniatures. Professional sports teams have to build a coaching staff, recruit players, etc. Both have to do these things before they can even begin developing and rehearsing dispositions and game-plans. As if there weren't "imbalances" in these games?

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Look at a genre like FPS's where skill is everything. TTK is always extremely low.

We all agree we're lucky to be graced with such fortune as to share our game experience with NBs, but what about Fighting Games? They have a long TTK. This combat system has elements of both FPS and Fighting Games.

Perhaps I've missed something. I'm not even sure how tanking vs ganking is relevant to the video. Some of both playstyles have used OP proc sets from time to time.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · September 2021

Thannazzar wrote: »

I take your point re Tanklets however...

The essence of Ganking is to appear from stealth, deliver 5-6 LA weave abilities faster than the enemy can react and kill them.

I can understand where that may be a test of a players math skills in building towards that outcome, and a test of their reflexes to deliver the right button presses in sequence (if they are not using macros).

But if they achieve their desired outcome they are not actually fighting another player, they may as well just be parsing against a dummy, that's not player vs player combat. Its not matching skill with another player its effectively just trying to overpower them with gear and optimization.

Its an affirmation that what the ganking player wants is not a test of skill, or competition, just a victory, that is particularly true when a player using that play style complains about those with sufficient resistance, armor and health to counter their tactic, they are actively avoiding combat or even the opportunity of combat with another player because all they are after is an easy victory, not a test of skill.

Yeah it isn't really about traditional mmo skills, I will give you that. There is however many different types of skills and gankers excel at fast paced low ttk stealth combat. Combat where traditional mmo mastery of rotations, cooldowns, and builds are less important. That Sun Tzu style of reading your opponent and beating them before they even have a chance to put up a proper fight. Its very low honor, but highly effective. Its more mind games , patience, and looking for opportunities to exploit. I don't want a "test of skill" when I attack someone. If I am forced into an actual fight, even if I win, I feel like I played badly. I am far more satisfied with my performance when I take someone down without resistance. That means I am doing a good job with the skill set I have acquired. Take someone down without a fight and without anyone noticing and you can dismantle an entire siege. Its like attacking a dummy because, well the players we are attacking are actually pretty dumb and sloppy.

Its skill, but maybe not the kind most mmo players have respect for. Oh I killed you while you were afk or texting? You were toying with a zergling and let your shields down? You were trying to 1vX and my burst 1 shotted you while you were under pressure? You challenged me(a ganker) to a 1v1 and I called a buddy in to duo you in that moment of isolation? Good, stop playing sloppy and that won't happen again. Can't assume that everyone will play to your strengths or let your bad positioning/awareness slide. In an mmo like eso almost everyone forgets that walking alone into enemy territory or idling in a field is extremely dangerous and we are there to remind them. They get away with it most of the time because they have so much passive defense(or power as the video talks about) that the average player can't kill them even in those situations, but not with us. Positioning and awareness are skills that they need to learn the hard way I guess. Next time you tanklets are trying to 1vX, be aware that your position is very weak and exploitable. Its not our fault that you gave us the perfect opportunity to humble you.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Look at a genre like FPS's where skill is everything. TTK is always extremely low.

We all agree we're lucky to be graced with such fortune as to share our game experience with NBs, but what about Fighting Games? They have a long TTK. This combat system has elements of both FPS and Fighting Games.

Perhaps I've missed something. I'm not even sure how tanking vs ganking is relevant to the video. Some of both playstyles have used OP proc sets from time to time.

Well I don't play fighting games, so I cant exactly use them as an example. I think the standard dps vs dps fight goes a bit like how a fighting game would go. Tanking vs ganking is relevant because I wanted to show that what Op perceived as unskilled gameplay actually has a lot of depth. Tanking being a much better example of what raw "power" looks like in eso. Yeah we all use proc sets, its the unfortunate direction that this game has gone in. Since this game has a high amount of "power" you need to use those sets in order to put yourself in the best possible position to confront it.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Well I don't play fighting games, so I cant exactly use them as an example. I think the standard dps vs dps fight goes a bit like how a fighting game would go. Tanking vs ganking is relevant because I wanted to show that what Op perceived as unskilled gameplay actually has a lot of depth. Tanking being a much better example of what raw "power" looks like in eso. Yeah we all use proc sets, its the unfortunate direction that this game has gone in. Since this game has a high amount of "power" you need to use those sets in order to put yourself in the best possible position to confront it.

Well have you ever "tanked" in Cyrodiil? There's maybe 1 or 2 per Alliance at any given time on my server. Sounds like the OP is interpreting big NB combos as the result of only Power, and not Skill, perhaps you are doing the same for "tanking"?

Not everybody who blocks your combo is a tank, maybe that's just how they survive against you. If NBs aren't the superlative 1v1 class, capable of the best ganking - balance is off. If a tanky player can't block and shutdown an NB's offense - balance is off. Often a perfectly equal fight will come down to something other than just Power or Skill - like in a pro sport, gravity, or the refs, in a tabletop war game, dice rolls, or which of the bickering parties persuades the uninvolved third parties that their interpretation of the rulebook is correct. In this game there's a number of things mediating Power and Skill, but there's plenty of RNG, like passive dodge, crit chance, etc - things an NB depends on quite a bit more than the predictable, and thus "discernable", and thus, "skillful", blocking. That last statement there is hyperbolic but you get my point.

Just another point of view, yours were great posts about the NB perspective.

I agree tanking is easy, ganking is hard, but I'm a DK.

divnyi · September 2021

Thannazzar wrote: »

But if they achieve their desired outcome they are not actually fighting another player, they may as well just be parsing against a dummy, that's not player vs player combat. Its not matching skill with another player its effectively just trying to overpower them with gear and optimization.

Ganking is a test for the enemy to be ready for being ganked. ESO have bunch of acvite defense options, if you are getting ganked, it's either you are too slow, or your build doesn't pack enough toughness.

That being said, in perfect balance unavoidable gank damage shouldn't exceed like 22k-24k.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

I agree passive defense has been more powerful than active offense, over the history of most of this game, to clarify, so I think I do agree when you say tanking is typically a clearer representation of sheer Power than ganking. There are some notable outliers on the offensive side though, here and there.

Amottica · September 2021

Thannazzar wrote: »

I take your point re Tanklets however...

The essence of Ganking is to appear from stealth, deliver 5-6 LA weave abilities faster than the enemy can react and kill them.

I can understand where that may be a test of a players math skills in building towards that outcome, and a test of their reflexes to deliver the right button presses in sequence (if they are not using macros).

But if they achieve their desired outcome they are not actually fighting another player, they may as well just be parsing against a dummy, that's not player vs player combat. Its not matching skill with another player its effectively just trying to overpower them with gear and optimization.

Its an affirmation that what the ganking player wants is not a test of skill, or competition, just a victory, that is particularly true when a player using that play style complains about those with sufficient resistance, armor and health to counter their tactic, they are actively avoiding combat or even the opportunity of combat with another player because all they are after is an easy victory, not a test of skill.

If the player is not reacting in less than three seconds (5-6 weave/abilities) then that is on them. If they are built like a glass cannon so they go down fast then that is on them. If they are just plain poorly geared or using a PvE build in PvP then that is on them.

Granted, when there is the lag that makes it appear that those 5-6 weaves/abilities all came at once then that is on the server but that is not always the case.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · September 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Well I don't play fighting games, so I cant exactly use them as an example. I think the standard dps vs dps fight goes a bit like how a fighting game would go. Tanking vs ganking is relevant because I wanted to show that what Op perceived as unskilled gameplay actually has a lot of depth. Tanking being a much better example of what raw "power" looks like in eso. Yeah we all use proc sets, its the unfortunate direction that this game has gone in. Since this game has a high amount of "power" you need to use those sets in order to put yourself in the best possible position to confront it.

Well have you ever "tanked" in Cyrodiil? There's maybe 1 or 2 per Alliance at any given time on my server. Sounds like the OP is interpreting big NB combos as the result of only Power, and not Skill, perhaps you are doing the same for "tanking"?

Not everybody who blocks your combo is a tank, maybe that's just how they survive against you. If NBs aren't the superlative 1v1 class, capable of the best ganking - balance is off. If a tanky player can't block and shutdown an NB's offense - balance is off. Often a perfectly equal fight will come down to something other than just Power or Skill - like in a pro sport, gravity, or the refs, in a tabletop war game, dice rolls, or which of the bickering parties persuades the uninvolved third parties that their interpretation of the rulebook is correct. In this game there's a number of things mediating Power and Skill, but there's plenty of RNG, like passive dodge, crit chance, etc - things an NB depends on quite a bit more than the predictable, and thus "discernable", and thus, "skillful", blocking. That last statement there is hyperbolic but you get my point.

Just another point of view, yours were great posts about the NB perspective.

I agree tanking is easy, ganking is hard, but I'm a DK.

I have tanked in pve situations, but that just isn't fun for me in pvp. Brought my necro pve tank into pvp and didn't find it hard to play, just takes forever to kill anyone. Very forgiving. You can pretty much just hold block and heal for an entire bg.

I think there is two different kinds of tanks right now. You got the guys who are set up like they are about to go into a trial and you got the guys who are putting as much as they can into defense with proc sets. The trial tanks are actually extremely rare and don't do much. Its the proc tanks that are very common and dangerous. The trademark sign is a lone wolf running circles around a tower and baiting zerglings into a Dark Convergence combo. Tanky enough to withstand a zerg and the proc sets allow them to kill them. Usually front barring sword n board and very rarely pulling out a 2 hander. Not talking about heavy armor brawlers, those guys have to take more active measures to stay alive.

I think you should be able to survive a nb's offense, but it should come from active defenses such as blocking, rolling, healing, using shields.... If you get caught sleeping or playing badly its fair to get deleted. That is how the game is for the most part right now. Only the trial tanks can survive a sneak attack while idling and that is fair since they can't do anything else. The proc tanks you may have to get a bit creative with or at least use an ult while they are unprepared, but they still die. Proc tank is probably the most "power" centric build in the game right now and also the current meta. Its not totally skill less, but I have never seen one perform badly. That may be because its mostly high tier players using that build or because its very forgiving due to high passive defense. Reminds me of the ancient shield bash meta.

Artim_X · September 2021

IMO as long as players enter a PvP zone without putting anything into survivability or just being overly relaxed in a pvp space, ganking will always be an acceptable playstyle.

Andre_Noir · September 2021

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

00:33 he said that he is an PVE-crab. And then start to judge how a PVP has to work lol
Also there no "ganking" in PVP zones if they are separated form open world - ESO's case

Thannazzar · September 2021

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

00:33 he said that he is an PVE-crab. And then start to judge how a PVP has to work lol
Also there no "ganking" in PVP zones if they are separated form open world - ESO's case

Noted, the salient point (if you watched the entire vid) was around the competition vs bullying dynamic, IE do you want to test your skill fighting an opponent or just score a victory by using power of a build to kill them before they can react.

If a ganker achieves their desired outcome they are not actually fighting another player, they may as well just be parsing against a dummy, that's not player vs player combat. Its not matching skill with another player its effectively just trying to overpower them with gear and optimization.

If that's the playstyle you enjoy, all power too you, but when that playstyle leads to:

- new players or PVE'rs not want to participate in PVP and dwindling PVP populations and increased BG queue times or
- Players equiping ultra tanky builds to completely mitigate your playstyle

well

"Im sorry you dont like the monster you have created Dr Frankenstein".

MEBengalsFan2001 · September 2021

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

ESO has multiple issues that has impacted the game.

wazzz56 · September 2021

yet they are on a consistent path of lessening the skill gap in ESO....the game has evolved to where sets and group size matter way more than skill.....people complained about people being skilled at ani cancel because it wasn't fair ( yet anyone could practice and learn it)...as much as I wish eso was about skill still, it is not..and is just falling further into the opposite direction...they were headed in the right direction with the proc removal, group size reduction and no cross healing...but that is all out the window now....

Roylund · September 2021

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

Ganking at least requires the player to have good game sense and they got to push at least 1 button. TANKING on the other hand is the epitome of power>skill. Your raw defense is so high that you could literally stand still, push zero buttons, and survive longer. The average tank player wouldn't be able to gank at all they are too used to crutching on their armor and hp to win fights. Their procs do all their damage and their armor/hp does all their survival for them. Trash that belongs in pve.

Look at a genre like FPS's where skill is everything. TTK is always extremely low. Players in fps's need to react fast, have a good game sense, need to actually aim, need good positioning, and they need to use cover. Ganking also requires all of those things. Ganking is ironically the closest thing to skill in this entire game. People just hate it because its one of the few ways people who have been crutching on power can get out played and outsmarted. They put everything into passive defense, pure power, and then get smoked in 1 combo by a ganker, so they RAGE. All that effort they put in grinding cp or defensive sets gets slapped away in 1 second. They can't react fast, they are too lazy to keep their defenses up, they throw themselves into horrible positions, and don't pay any attention because they don't have to.

The ganker on the other hand has to react instantly, has to be in cover at all times, they need to stay in strong positions to not get spotted, and have to keep their head on a swivel to not get snuck up on. No matter how many times we get nerfed we still keep killing because stats and numbers ain't got anything to do with our playstyle. Its Sun Tzu in the form of an mmo playstyle.

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”- Sun Tzu
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”- Sun Tzu
“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”- Sun Tzu
“In the Midst of Chaos, There Is Also Opportunity”- Sun Tzu
He is literally describing ganking here, “If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.”-Sun Tzu

Tanklets are too dense to use strategy and tactics, only raw power. No skill, no tactics, no strategy, NO HOPE. No nerf will ever be enough as long as we continue playing this game. Keep that block up, keep panic rolling even inside an empty keep, but the second you stop I will be there waiting.

I think you're exaggerating the difficulty of ganking. It's harder than just permablocking with a tank for sure IF you're ganking someone with allies around as you still have to get away but the actual gank execution is not difficult. Like you said, you're trying to kill someone before they react, that's not skillful, you're basically parsing on a dummy the same way you would in PvE. If you want to say there's skill in that fine by me but don't pretend that passes as actual PvP skill since it doesn't depend on the execution of the enemy player (you're disregarding half of the PvP equation). Let me put it this way, if there's no difference between you ganking a dummy or an unaware PvPer then your skill remains in the PvE department. The hard part of ganking is getting out and that's why I agree with you that ganking is more difficult than tanking, since you have to think more about your active defense and plan your escape route. To say that's the most skillful thing in the game though is ridiculous. Actually having to manage resources, buffs, and positioning with a mixture of defense and offense in a more balanced build is much more difficult than one shotting someone from stealth, dodge rolling, and then stealthing again (or working towards stealthing again).

When you say "The ganker on the other hand has to react instantly, has to be in cover at all times, they need to stay in strong positions to not get spotted, and have to keep their head on a swivel to not get snuck up on" you're making huge exaggerations about how difficult it is to reach the proper gank position. Nightblades can stealth, stealth potions are a thing, you can ignore sneak penalties with multiple passives. If literal stealth wasn't a thing in this game this statement would be accurate since you'd have to manage your positioning to avoid your opponents line of sight, but since you get to just click a button and disappear from their screen it's pretty ridiculous to play it up to more than what it is.

Also, Sun Tzu is talking about the most efficient way to fight, not the most difficult or skillful. If he had a button that just let him one shot anyone on any battlefield of course that would be a way to "fall like a thunderbolt" and he would press it as that would be the most optimal way of battling. That doesn't mean it's the most skillful which is what you are implying.

TL;DR: Balance > Ganking > Tanks

MEBengalsFan2001 · September 2021

wazzz56 wrote: »

yet they are on a consistent path of lessening the skill gap in ESO....the game has evolved to where sets and group size matter way more than skill.....people complained about people being skilled at ani cancel because it wasn't fair ( yet anyone could practice and learn it)...as much as I wish eso was about skill still, it is not..and is just falling further into the opposite direction...they were headed in the right direction with the proc removal, group size reduction and no cross healing...but that is all out the window now....

There is no skill in animation cancelling. That is more muscle memory than anything else and that isn't being skilled. Also with players using modded controller that memorize button sequence for consoles and on the PC side you have apps/add on that isn't being skilled, that are crutches that enable people to think that they are skilled. 😁

Merforum · September 2021

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

yet they are on a consistent path of lessening the skill gap in ESO....the game has evolved to where sets and group size matter way more than skill.....people complained about people being skilled at ani cancel because it wasn't fair ( yet anyone could practice and learn it)...as much as I wish eso was about skill still, it is not..and is just falling further into the opposite direction...they were headed in the right direction with the proc removal, group size reduction and no cross healing...but that is all out the window now....

There is no skill in animation cancelling. That is more muscle memory than anything else and that isn't being skilled. Also with players using modded controller that memorize button sequence for consoles and on the PC side you have apps/add on that isn't being skilled, that are crutches that enable people to think that they are skilled. 😁

Exactly I love how some people try to flip the intent of the OP/vid, aniCancel would be an example of NOT skill but using exploit to get unfair advantage. And a NB trying to say ganking is SKILL when it is the worse cheese in game and should have never existed. It is exactly what the VID says, some games allow a bunch of exploitable and overpowered things to exist and PVPer who have access to and practice said exploits are not at all interested in balance or competition or fun even, only killing and bullying others.

fred4 · September 2021

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

Have you played nightblades? Game balance is ever shifting, but dealing with gankers is mostly a matter of experience. It doesn't matter if you miss passive resistances. Nightblade burst is some of the most avoidable damage there is, e.g. you break free and dodge roll before the nightblade can kill you in most cases. Then you calmly buff, heal and LoS, as needed, before you counterattack. Only last patch IMO took ganking too far, because overall damage was so high. This favored gankers.

I agree with the video, except for two major points:

He forgot to mention zerging. Inexperienced players band together to kill more experienced ones. This is the single most important way that open world PvP fights are balanced. All that really needs to happen is that the 1vXers stop whining when they are being zerged down. While 1v1 balance is desirable the game works despite it's shortcomings, because zerging is actually OK. Don't let anyone make you feel bad about that unless your own conscience kicks in that you are being the bully.
ESO's combat progression is pretty lateral. Yes, there are many things you may want to be competitive in PvP. CP160. Mythics. Undaunted passives. Jewelry transmutation. A monster set. However that still only requires you to play a fraction of the game. I meet new players from time to time who are trying to put together the perfect build, before entering PvP or even duelling. Sometimes I want to shout at them: Just use something decent and get some experience playing in no CP under your belt. Experience and skill counts for quite a lot in ESO.

Joy_Division · September 2021

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

Merforum · September 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I think you might be falling into the false argument that 'since there are totally toxic people in high end trial that won't let just anyone play, it is a OK to have totally toxic people in PVP with broken build and huge power/skill gap, so everything is a wash'. NO the vast majority of players and seemingly the dude in the video, is pointing to ALL the bullying as NOT being good for any game.

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

fred4 · September 2021

Merforum wrote: »

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

This absolutely cuts both ways. I became a nightblade main, because I frequently play alone and being a nightblade allowed me to avoid fights and bring my Tel Var home. Whenever someone asks what to do as a new player, one of the options I give them is being a sniper. Not that that works especially well these days, but it has been an option for inexperienced players to get some early kills.

Merforum · September 2021

fred4 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

This absolutely cuts both ways. I became a nightblade main, because I frequently play alone and being a nightblade allowed me to avoid fights and bring my Tel Var home. Whenever someone asks what to do as a new player, one of the options I give them is being a sniper. Not that that works especially well these days, but it has been an option for inexperienced players to get some early kills.

Exactly what I mean. Everyone has an initial shock by getting ganked and either hate it and just leave or they decide to do it themselves which continues the vicious cycle. But ZOS NEVER should have let this become so popular, they should have only let it be super niche or not have it. Personally everyone I introduced to the game has quit and never come back mainly because they say the PVP is so bad for allowing this (and other things) and even though I stayed mostly for PVE, I hate this too.

I think people can make an excuse like you that 'if you can't beat em join em', but I don't think anyone can justify this playstyle as being good for any game, especially in the high percentage that has been allowed.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I think you might be falling into the false argument that 'since there are totally toxic people in high end trial that won't let just anyone play, it is a OK to have totally toxic people in PVP with broken build and huge power/skill gap, so everything is a wash'. NO the vast majority of players and seemingly the dude in the video, is pointing to ALL the bullying as NOT being good for any game.

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

Being ganked isn't going to universally turn off newcomers, some will be fascinated by this and want to learn how to progress to gain that Power. Everybody on Xbox in 2015 who wasn't a PC Transfer can probably remember that feeling.

Edit: I see your last comment there, not everybody will decide they specifically want to replicate the gank they experienced, but something of a comparable level of Power. This is a similar idea to not allowing the low level to get their gear from Vlastarus. They can't be permitted to think that Cyrodiil is a forgiving place, this would make PvP altogether less interesting for the newcomer.

Merforum · September 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I think you might be falling into the false argument that 'since there are totally toxic people in high end trial that won't let just anyone play, it is a OK to have totally toxic people in PVP with broken build and huge power/skill gap, so everything is a wash'. NO the vast majority of players and seemingly the dude in the video, is pointing to ALL the bullying as NOT being good for any game.

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

Being ganked isn't going to universally turn off newcomers, some will be fascinated by this and want to learn how to progress to gain that Power. Everybody on Xbox in 2015 who wasn't a PC Transfer can probably remember that feeling.

Oh really, I have never seen/heard anyone say they loved being ganked so much that is why the decided to play a game so they can gank others, however I have heard/seen the exact opposite innumerable times.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

Merforum wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I think you might be falling into the false argument that 'since there are totally toxic people in high end trial that won't let just anyone play, it is a OK to have totally toxic people in PVP with broken build and huge power/skill gap, so everything is a wash'. NO the vast majority of players and seemingly the dude in the video, is pointing to ALL the bullying as NOT being good for any game.

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

Being ganked isn't going to universally turn off newcomers, some will be fascinated by this and want to learn how to progress to gain that Power. Everybody on Xbox in 2015 who wasn't a PC Transfer can probably remember that feeling.

Oh really, I have never seen/heard anyone say they loved being ganked so much that is why the decided to play a game so they can gank others, however I have heard/seen the exact opposite innumerable times.

Have you ever asked a vet why they stuck around in the early days of their ESO PvP despite getting undoubtedly trounced? There's nothing "toxic" about doing what you're supposed to in PvP, fighting the enemies. That this can be accomplished through a variety of means is part of the charm. It is good to display to newcomers the competitive nature of the format.

Merforum · September 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I think you might be falling into the false argument that 'since there are totally toxic people in high end trial that won't let just anyone play, it is a OK to have totally toxic people in PVP with broken build and huge power/skill gap, so everything is a wash'. NO the vast majority of players and seemingly the dude in the video, is pointing to ALL the bullying as NOT being good for any game.

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

Being ganked isn't going to universally turn off newcomers, some will be fascinated by this and want to learn how to progress to gain that Power. Everybody on Xbox in 2015 who wasn't a PC Transfer can probably remember that feeling.

Oh really, I have never seen/heard anyone say they loved being ganked so much that is why the decided to play a game so they can gank others, however I have heard/seen the exact opposite innumerable times.

Have you ever asked a vet why they stuck around in the early days of their ESO PvP despite getting undoubtedly trounced? There's nothing "toxic" about doing what you're supposed to in PvP, fighting the enemies. That this can be accomplished through a variety of means is part of the charm. It is good to display to newcomers the competitive nature of the format.

Ganking is the opposite of being competitive. I didn't say toxic but yeah it is being a bully. Trying to kill people over and over before they have a chance to do anything. BTW every mode of PVP has many objectives not all about fighting and ganking isn't necessary in any situation, it is a choice. ZOS shouldn't have never let it be so pervasive.

If you are trying to convince people that ganking is valid, competitive or healthy for any game, please stop. No one believes that.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

Merforum wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I think you might be falling into the false argument that 'since there are totally toxic people in high end trial that won't let just anyone play, it is a OK to have totally toxic people in PVP with broken build and huge power/skill gap, so everything is a wash'. NO the vast majority of players and seemingly the dude in the video, is pointing to ALL the bullying as NOT being good for any game.

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

Being ganked isn't going to universally turn off newcomers, some will be fascinated by this and want to learn how to progress to gain that Power. Everybody on Xbox in 2015 who wasn't a PC Transfer can probably remember that feeling.

Oh really, I have never seen/heard anyone say they loved being ganked so much that is why the decided to play a game so they can gank others, however I have heard/seen the exact opposite innumerable times.

Have you ever asked a vet why they stuck around in the early days of their ESO PvP despite getting undoubtedly trounced? There's nothing "toxic" about doing what you're supposed to in PvP, fighting the enemies. That this can be accomplished through a variety of means is part of the charm. It is good to display to newcomers the competitive nature of the format.

Ganking is the opposite of being competitive. I didn't say toxic but yeah it is being a bully. Trying to kill people over and over before they have a chance to do anything. BTW every mode of PVP has many objectives not all about fighting and ganking isn't necessary in any situation, it is a choice. ZOS shouldn't have never let it be so pervasive.

If you are trying to convince people that ganking is valid, competitive or healthy for any game, please stop. No one believes that.

How is it different from sniping in FPS? More abstractly what if a football team decided it would just try to throw a Hail Mary every play, and completely bypass the secondary defense of their opponent? Or if a basketball team decided it would try to do nothing but shoot full court shots immediately after inbounding? Non-competitive? To me that's not the right word. Purposefully trying to take the rules of gameplay to their limit to more easily guarantee success, yes, but I don't see how that's non-competitive, personally. Many of us similarly try to push some other limits with our builds.

Of course if it were impossible to react or counter the gank it wouldn't be healthy, but outside of outliers which tend to get toned down it's generally been possible to counter - once you're sufficiently powered / skilled. I believe counterable ganking is healthy for the game, yes.

I don't gank in this game, never have, but I've used similar "bypass defense" tactics in tabletop wargames.

Merforum · September 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I think you might be falling into the false argument that 'since there are totally toxic people in high end trial that won't let just anyone play, it is a OK to have totally toxic people in PVP with broken build and huge power/skill gap, so everything is a wash'. NO the vast majority of players and seemingly the dude in the video, is pointing to ALL the bullying as NOT being good for any game.

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

Being ganked isn't going to universally turn off newcomers, some will be fascinated by this and want to learn how to progress to gain that Power. Everybody on Xbox in 2015 who wasn't a PC Transfer can probably remember that feeling.

Oh really, I have never seen/heard anyone say they loved being ganked so much that is why the decided to play a game so they can gank others, however I have heard/seen the exact opposite innumerable times.

Have you ever asked a vet why they stuck around in the early days of their ESO PvP despite getting undoubtedly trounced? There's nothing "toxic" about doing what you're supposed to in PvP, fighting the enemies. That this can be accomplished through a variety of means is part of the charm. It is good to display to newcomers the competitive nature of the format.

Ganking is the opposite of being competitive. I didn't say toxic but yeah it is being a bully. Trying to kill people over and over before they have a chance to do anything. BTW every mode of PVP has many objectives not all about fighting and ganking isn't necessary in any situation, it is a choice. ZOS shouldn't have never let it be so pervasive.

If you are trying to convince people that ganking is valid, competitive or healthy for any game, please stop. No one believes that.

How is it different from sniping in FPS? More abstractly what if a football team decided it would just try to throw a Hail Mary every play, and completely bypass the secondary defense of their opponent? Or if a basketball team decided it would try to do nothing but shoot full court shots immediately after inbounding? Non-competitive? To me that's not the right word. Purposefully trying to take the rules of gameplay to their limit to more easily guarantee success, yes, but I don't see how that's non-competitive, personally. Many of us similarly try to push some other limits with our builds.

Of course if it were impossible to react or counter the gank it wouldn't be healthy, but outside of outliers which tend to get toned down it's generally been possible to counter - once you're sufficiently powered / skilled. I believe counterable ganking is healthy for the game, yes.

I don't gank in this game, never have, but I've used similar "bypass defense" tactics in tabletop wargames.

So now we are just playing the whoever talks last is the winner. We are going to have to agree to disagree. Ganking is completely terrible for any game and attracts the worst kind of people, who then spread toxicity through the whole environment. There is no defense for it, even you say you never do it, but you're willing to defend it for some unknown reason which I'm starting to think is just trolling at this point.

BTW your examples are ridiculous because they are in no way practical. A better example would be if people where fouling and tackling people who didn't have the ball (even football had a problem like roughing up the QB and spearing), BUT GUESS WHAT HAPPENED, they implement RULES TO STOP THAT. Which is what ZOS should do, STOP GANKING. FPS is a good example of what ESO should NOT BECOME MORE LIKE.

rbfrgsp · September 2021

People now use the word "gank" to mean "killed me fast". Stop doing that please.

Even if you build into pure damage, single-target max burst, the majority of players in cyrodiil remain off limits for any burst kill attempt. Their resists are too high, they have 30k+ health, they run shields or AoE CCs that prevent a true surprise attack kill combo.

If you're wiping to burst damage with no chance to retaliate, it's because you have chosen to make yourself a target. You've run low HP or neglected defensive sets or skills and your opponent knows that.

If you have chosen to make yourself a target for burst damage, you sure as hell had better prepare a working defense (manual evades by dodge roll, block) or prepare to Respawn.

It's an asymmetrical, real-time PvP environment. Which means it's not turn-based; you don't need to stand toe-to-toe and slap each other in the face with wet fish until one of you falls over if you don't want to.