Pay to Win?

Vizirith · September 2021

With every purchased content that brings with it the meta gear, where exactly is the line between simply making gear the best to force people to buy it to stay competitive vs pay to win?

We've had numerous dlc's where this is the case. Quite honestly I'm not actually sure how many dlc's ago this wasn't.

VaranisArano · September 2021

To some extent it comes down to whether you consider paying for new content to be Pay-to-Win or whether you consider paying for new content a normal part of Pay-To-Progress in a Buy-to-Play MMO.

If you think it's Pay-to-Win to get the gear from Rockgrove, then what's your solution? Tell ZOS to make all new content automatically part of the base game, no extra payment necessary?

Vizirith · September 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

To some extent it comes down to whether you consider paying for new content to be Pay-to-Win or whether you consider paying for new content a normal part of Pay-To-Progress in a Buy-to-Play MMO.

If you think it's Pay-to-Win to get the gear from Rockgrove, then what's your solution? Tell ZOS to make all new content automatically part of the base game, no extra payment necessary?

Well I was more commenting on the fact that pretty much every patch comes out with meta gear, until it is nerfed with the new patch that releases more meta gear and so on.

Eso gear level doesn't change like most other mmo's. So the incentive to buy the next dlc in WoW for example is to be able to access the next content along with the higher level gear. So in broad terms it's similar. However eso is a lot more artificial in terms of progression scaling.

As far as solutions, I don't really have any was just more for discussion purposes.

relentless_turnip · September 2021

Is this reference to the rewards of the worthy sets available with the base game?
Not being sarcastic, just enquiring what inspired this post?

Vizirith · September 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Is this reference to the rewards of the worthy sets available with the base game?
Not being sarcastic, just enquiring what inspired this post?

More commenting on the fact that every patch is now almost guaranteed to bring the meta sets. There used to be different options brought not just nearly the definitive meta that slowly became the norm.

Doesn't have anything to do with them being in base game, rather that it again emphasizes that we can all figure that whatever comes out next will have the meta gear.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

Last patch's meta was Balorgh, Pariah, and Clever, a few patches ago it was Hunding's and Spriggan's.

If I had to choose I would rather they release sets which might possibly be meta rather than being useless on arrival. Anybody wearing Bog Raider? Granted that one is a special case, it would've been good.

It's almost always optional in this game whether to farm new sets to remain competitive, or just cycle through various 2015 sets from patch to patch.

(PvP only comment)

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · September 2021

The best Mag Sorc I've seen, Haki, still uses the same Mighty Chudan - Crafty Alfiq / Necropotence.

If you're good then you don't need the new sets.

hands0medevil · September 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

To some extent it comes down to whether you consider paying for new content to be Pay-to-Win or whether you consider paying for new content a normal part of Pay-To-Progress in a Buy-to-Play MMO.

If you think it's Pay-to-Win to get the gear from Rockgrove, then what's your solution? Tell ZOS to make all new content automatically part of the base game, no extra payment necessary?

No, it's a matter of balancing new items... you know it's soft p2w when new items (malacath and crimson for example) are absurdly op and it takes exactly 1 year or next big update with new items, to balance them...

Kwoung · September 2021

hands0medevil wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

To some extent it comes down to whether you consider paying for new content to be Pay-to-Win or whether you consider paying for new content a normal part of Pay-To-Progress in a Buy-to-Play MMO.

If you think it's Pay-to-Win to get the gear from Rockgrove, then what's your solution? Tell ZOS to make all new content automatically part of the base game, no extra payment necessary?

No, it's a matter of balancing new items... you know it's soft p2w when new items (malacath and crimson for example) are absurdly op and it takes exactly 1 year or next big update with new items, to balance them...

It is pretty much a MMO standard for as long as I can remember. Even back in EQ each new release would bring gear that rendered the old stuff near worthless. I actually can't think of a MMO I played that didn't do that, so maybe the entire genre is PTW?

mikey_reach · September 2021

There is pay they just know how to market it

katorga · September 2021

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

The best Mag Sorc I've seen, Haki, still uses the same Mighty Chudan - Crafty Alfiq / Necropotence.

If you're good then you don't need the new sets.

Mag Sorc is the only class that be top tier using basic stat sets from the beginning of the game. That is a testament to how well rounded that class kit is.

But if expansions didn't offer progression, what is the point?

Playing my Sorc with Alfiq/Necropotence after 6+ years is wicked boring.

ResidentContrarian · September 2021

I don't use any new sets usually, and I won't slot mythics - not now, not ever.

alberichtano · September 2021

Kwoung wrote: »

hands0medevil wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

To some extent it comes down to whether you consider paying for new content to be Pay-to-Win or whether you consider paying for new content a normal part of Pay-To-Progress in a Buy-to-Play MMO.

If you think it's Pay-to-Win to get the gear from Rockgrove, then what's your solution? Tell ZOS to make all new content automatically part of the base game, no extra payment necessary?

No, it's a matter of balancing new items... you know it's soft p2w when new items (malacath and crimson for example) are absurdly op and it takes exactly 1 year or next big update with new items, to balance them...

It is pretty much a MMO standard for as long as I can remember. Even back in EQ each new release would bring gear that rendered the old stuff near worthless. I actually can't think of a MMO I played that didn't do that, so maybe the entire genre is PTW?

Aren't all MMOs inherantly PtP - Pay to pay? ;-)

Valabrog · September 2021

Vizirith wrote: »

With every purchased content that brings with it the meta gear, where exactly is the line between simply making gear the best to force people to buy it to stay competitive vs pay to win?

We've had numerous dlc's where this is the case. Quite honestly I'm not actually sure how many dlc's ago this wasn't.

Crimsom was locked behind DLC - current meta sets come from PVP reward chests, you can easily buy them with gold from guild traders. How is that pay to win? Pay to win means you buy items for real life money, not in-game currency.

fred4 · September 2021

Just because something is in the news doesn't mean it's good. I think Hrothgar is bugged and will hopefully be fixed, whereas Dark Convergence is IMO overrated. Were those the sets you were thinking of? There are plenty of other "broken" things in the game. There's a lightning heavy attack DK running around on PC EU critting me for up to 8K each tick on a squishy build and 5K on a tanky one. There was a bunch of one shot stamsorcs last patch over which I myself complained bitterly, but that trend seemed to abate even before the current patch came out. When it comes to PvP, the so-called meta is as much determined by player's fickleness as it is by actual merit. It's frequently about short term fun with the new toy. You can be competitive without it. I was wearing Deadly and Pariah on my stamplar today and it felt good. Old sets. For every marginally good or even outright good set ZOS have released in a typical patch, there have been many "meh" or downright bad sets. I actually think they frequently don't know themselves how good a set will be, but they are genuinely trying to get it right. There has to be some incentive to get the new sets. I know some people have strict interpretations of p2w. IMO those people should play a game that is truly fair, such as chess. A game where both parties operate with the same tools. My own idea of p2w is a bit more lenient. The intention behind these new sets is clearly to provide counterplay against people getting too comfortable in zergs and ball groups. That should be a good thing. It's a little bit too specific to be considered p2w, don't you think?

fred4 · September 2021

Valabrog wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

With every purchased content that brings with it the meta gear, where exactly is the line between simply making gear the best to force people to buy it to stay competitive vs pay to win?

We've had numerous dlc's where this is the case. Quite honestly I'm not actually sure how many dlc's ago this wasn't.

Crimsom was locked behind DLC - current meta sets come from PVP reward chests, you can easily buy them with gold from guild traders. How is that pay to win? Pay to win means you buy items for real life money, not in-game currency.

Actually just this. I agree.

Kaysha · September 2021

fred4 wrote: »

Just because something is in the news doesn't mean it's good. I think Hrothgar is bugged and will hopefully be fixed, whereas Dark Convergence is IMO overrated. Were those the sets you were thinking of? There are plenty of other "broken" things in the game. There's a lightning heavy attack DK running around on PC EU critting me for up to 8K each tick on a squishy build and 5K on a tanky one. There was a bunch of one shot stamsorcs last patch over which I myself complained bitterly, but that trend seemed to abate even before the current patch came out. When it comes to PvP, the so-called meta is as much determined by player's fickleness as it is by actual merit. It's frequently about short term fun with the new toy. You can be competitive without it. I was wearing Deadly and Pariah on my stamplar today and it felt good. Old sets. For every marginally good or even outright good set ZOS have released in a typical patch, there have been many "meh" or downright bad sets. I actually think they frequently don't know themselves how good a set will be, but they are genuinely trying to get it right. There has to be some incentive to get the new sets. I know some people have strict interpretations of p2w. IMO those people should play a game that is truly fair, such as chess. A game where both parties operate with the same tools. My own idea of p2w is a bit more lenient. The intention behind these new sets is clearly to provide counterplay against people getting too comfortable in zergs and ball groups. That should be a good thing. It's a little bit too specific to be considered p2w, don't you think?

on spot, as ever

Vizirith · September 2021

fred4 wrote: »

Just because something is in the news doesn't mean it's good. I think Hrothgar is bugged and will hopefully be fixed, whereas Dark Convergence is IMO overrated. Were those the sets you were thinking of? There are plenty of other "broken" things in the game. There's a lightning heavy attack DK running around on PC EU critting me for up to 8K each tick on a squishy build and 5K on a tanky one. There was a bunch of one shot stamsorcs last patch over which I myself complained bitterly, but that trend seemed to abate even before the current patch came out. When it comes to PvP, the so-called meta is as much determined by player's fickleness as it is by actual merit. It's frequently about short term fun with the new toy. You can be competitive without it. I was wearing Deadly and Pariah on my stamplar today and it felt good. Old sets. For every marginally good or even outright good set ZOS have released in a typical patch, there have been many "meh" or downright bad sets. I actually think they frequently don't know themselves how good a set will be, but they are genuinely trying to get it right. There has to be some incentive to get the new sets. I know some people have strict interpretations of p2w. IMO those people should play a game that is truly fair, such as chess. A game where both parties operate with the same tools. My own idea of p2w is a bit more lenient. The intention behind these new sets is clearly to provide counterplay against people getting too comfortable in zergs and ball groups. That should be a good thing. It's a little bit too specific to be considered p2w, don't you think?

I agree with most of this but then it really comes down to just how lenient your definition of pay to win is. As I said earlier it was a broad observation made based on the overall trend with gear released by dlc's. Meant more for provoking discussion.

For simplification's sake, take just purchasing with irl money access to a dungeon. Fundamentally getting better gear with X times RNG loot chances that needed a "process" (actually doing the dungeon) to get. Now what if you could instead pay more irl money to get X "bags" of loot that have the same RNG chance. The only difference is that you don't have the process, would that be pay to win? What if the bags were locked instead, requiring only the "process" of lockpicking, is it no longer pay to win? What if you could pay even more irl money to remove the RNG chance, say X selectable loot bags. Is the removal of the RNG chance now pay to win?

And then how much does the gear have to better to be pay to win. For example if they brought back something like pre-nerf NMA behind a pay wall, would that not be pay to win because it isn't incredibly OP? Does the purchased set have to necessarily guarantee a win? A bad player with great purchased gear will lose to a significantly better player with worse gear. Is it only pay to win if the bad player wins every time purely because of gear? How much of an advantage does it have to be before it becomes pay to win? If pre-nerfed NMA isn't pay to win, would a set that gives like 2k weapon and spell damage all the time only purchased with irl money pay to win?

WeylandLabs · September 2021

Vizirith wrote: »

With every purchased content that brings with it the meta gear, where exactly is the line between simply making gear the best to force people to buy it to stay competitive vs pay to win?

We've had numerous dlc's where this is the case. Quite honestly I'm not actually sure how many dlc's ago this wasn't.

This is all games in gaming now... why do you think everyone is looking forward to the new battlefield. There's no Meta your tactics are the game.

Radiance · September 2021

Without the Craft Bag the game is damn near impossible to play so if you're not already paying, you're not really playing bc you spend so much time fiddling with the ridiculous multitude of materials and limited inventory and bank space.

GoodFella146 · September 2021

You can earn gold in-game to pay for your Warden class. They introduced crown gifting a long time ago which is really nice.

Amottica · September 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

To some extent it comes down to whether you consider paying for new content to be Pay-to-Win or whether you consider paying for new content a normal part of Pay-To-Progress in a Buy-to-Play MMO.

If you think it's Pay-to-Win to get the gear from Rockgrove, then what's your solution? Tell ZOS to make all new content automatically part of the base game, no extra payment necessary?

Valid thinking.

Since we no longer have to P2P with a sub the current model offers great opportunities and choices for each of us.
Considering we can now purchase DLCs for gold via trading with other players even the suggestion that we need to pay real money to gain access to these sets does fall short.

Since set bonus gear is a common reward for clearing content in ESO the design of placing sets in DLCs is very much expected and in-game. Since it is still obtained in-game is another reason why this is not P2W. Regardless, there is a sharp difference between what is considered P2W vs what we have in ESO.

Sheuib · September 2021

The current meta are part of the base game, rewards of the worthy, not DLC.

ESO_Nightingale · September 2021

GoodFella146 wrote: »

You can earn gold in-game to pay for your Warden class. They introduced crown gifting a long time ago which is really nice.

it's also given to people who buy a new account. but not sure when it started though.