End Game ...

Brimsurfer · April 2014

Before I even begin, I just have to say that Mannimarco is probably the most poorly designed game character I have ever seen in any game.

Now, lets talk about other stuff.

Ok so I hit level 45 and entered Cold Harbor but everything here seems disconnected from what's going on. This is meant to be the high and most intense point of our struggle against Molag Bal who is planning to invade and enslave the whole of Tamriel and yet I don't see any alliance armies being marshaled or pushing against Molag Bal's forces anywhere, instead the whole zone seems empty. Where are Alliance Armies?

Also, its business as usual in Hollow City, no one seems even remotely concerned about Molag Bal's invasion or being trapped in Cold Harbor. I actually came across several NPCs in Hollow City who are talking about grabbing drinks after the work........wow seriously?

Except of Council of War no one even talks about war. Also the members of Council of War are so poorly designed, not one member is memorable. I can't even remember their names. I don't even know who are these people, they just appeared in couple of quests and then became members of Council of War, seriously?

Now, Molag Bal knows that we are in Cold Harbor trying to destroy Planemeld or whatever its called (everything is just so forgettable), where are his reinforcements?

I just destroyed couple of portals as part of a quest to control Chasm, each of which was guarded by JUST TWO ENEMIES and then killed Molag Grunda (she didn't have any support either and she was his daughter, I am guessing she was someone important? Or am I wrong?) and now we i.e. Alliance controls most of the Chasm....... wow seriously? Is that how it works? Its a wonder that beggars from the alleys of Windhelm haven't kicked Molag Bal out of the Cold Harbor ....lol.

It seems like Molag Bal doesn't even care if he lives or die.......

Are you guys actually going to work on this and improve it or just gonna leave it like this? If not then I can just stop playing now, because if you are satisfied with current state of end game quests and areas then I can only imagine how poorly trials and other veteran content will be designed.

Also people are running out of quests at around level 48,

Did you even play this game after you finished making it?

[Moderator edit]

profanity removed

Rayadrel · April 2014

Clearly you have never encountered WoW's Varian or Jaina, Guild Wars 2's Scarlet or indeed Mannimarco from Oblivion if you think Mannimarco here is the worst.

Still, the whole Coldharbour plot does seem lazy and unepic, yes.
From the introduction of the "Last Ayleid King" who gives no explanation as to why he was ever friendly with an Imperial city until the very end (and that explanation was rubbish anyway) to how the hell an Imperial city would ever get away with openly worshipping a Daedra (even a "good" one) to running around working with people who act like you're familiar with them but aren't because they're characters from a different faction (and vice versa, I was Dominion and Telenger acted like we hadn't met multiple times).
The only interesting character at all for me was Lady Estre and even then she mysteriously has nothing new to say after Molag Bal is defeated.

It seems to me that the Coldharbour quests desperately want to be the finale of Dragon Age: Origins as I've noticed a lot of RPGs and MMOs want. The final battle with all the people united.
Except you never participate in or even see any epic battles. You are merely told that there totally are epic battles going on off screen and that important characters really are dying for sure! Which only gives the impression that they are either talking about some other battle somewhere, or characters are committing suicide for no reason.

I get the feeling more was intended for this finale, much more. But they either lost interest or were pressed for time, or thought their precious raid content more important than this.

Xaei · April 2014

MMOs always seem to screw up on the finale. Remember GW2's final 'epic' encounter with the dreaded elder dragon Zhaitan? No? You know, Zhaitan, destroyer of cities, devour of gods, great elder dragon of death? Still doesn't ring a bell?

What about standing around with useless NPCs spamming the 2-button on a cannon on an elder dragon who has precisely one, completely harmless attack, after being forced to group with 4 other players who have no story-relevance to your story other than intruding it in the most boring dungeon of the game? Yep, that's it! You remember!

It must be a trend.....

Eris · April 2014

End game exists only when the game is shutting down. A more correct term would be Current Max Level Content (CMLC). Please make a note of it.

An end game is not a good definition for the act of repeatedly performing the same act over and over again in hopes of getting the most uber radical awesome gear only to find it out of date when the next expansion comes.

Rayadrel · April 2014

The cynic in me says it's because they pull off more people to focus on group content towards the end of development cycles, and all the developer's plans for an epic player focused story get shredded.
Because those in change of MMOs think groups must be forced instead of allowing them to happen naturally by choice.

Though honestly the whole idea of Coldharbour was rather meh to begin with.
I would've rather preferred a siege on the Imperial City (like the trailers implied), maybe one where all 3 leaders of the factions get eliminated, thus explaining why every player and their mother can become Emperor for a week instead of the faction leaders (seriously is there an explanation for that at all?).

Xaei · April 2014

Just to be devil's advocate here, often it might actually need to be forced. Look at GW1 for example. In the end, there was heroes and henchmen, you basically got a choice between them or players. It was commonly known that if any grouped content can be done relatively efficiently with heroes and henchmen, most people will just do it with heroes and henchmen.

On topic though, I often think the reason why MMOs are often so meh on the story is partly because few people play MMOs for the story, partly because timetable stretching towards the end of development, and mostly because it doesn't 'need' a good story.

By need I mean if you look at consoles games, story is a huge thing. Games live and die by their storytelling and gamers put a huge amount of weight on it, and there's competition between games on who has a better story. If you look at MMOs, none of them has a good story so there's not much competition here, and what do MMO gamers look for in a MMO: what are the raids like? Is the gear cool-looking? How's the build-crafting? How's the graphics?

No one asks 'how's the game's plot?' when it comes to MMOs. Wildstar is a perfect example of that. Anyone who played the beta can tell you that storytelling and just a plot in general is non-existent there, and yet look, its probably the hottest MMO in 2014.

Rayadrel · April 2014

To be perfectly honest I don't see a problem with that kind of choice.
I've always been of the mindset that you should group if you want to. Sure make some content exclusively for groups but make sure there is an equivalent for solo players. It was kind of extreme in GW1 because GW1 was more of a lobby based dungeon crawler than an actual MMO.

Xaei · April 2014

I can guarantee you that in any MMO, if you give people the option to play any content just as efficiently solo as with other players, they will choose to play solo.

Brimsurfer · April 2014

Yes Zhaitan was one of the worst villains ever, but Mannimarco was the same and Molag Bal wasn't different either. Yes that's right Molag Bal!!

Molag Bal may be an iconic figure in ES lore and we may be hearing his mention since we were kids in ES games. But the way ESO portrayed the lord of schemes was pitiful and that last fight with Molag Bal was a joke.

The only MMO which got its characters right is WoW. Please don't slam me for mentioning WoW but this is true. This is where WoW excels at creating iconic characters and memorable experiences.

Anyone who ever played WoW, can never forget Thrall, Illidan, Arthas, Jayna, Grom Hellscream, Archemonde, Kil'Jaedin, Magtheridon, Gruul, Kelthuzad, Lich King, Harrison Jones, Bran Bronson, Hemit Nessingwary and the list goes on. When it comes to dungeons no one can forget Dead Mines, Razorfen, Dire Maul, Stockades, Black Rock, Hell Fire Dungeons etc.

I would think that these MMO developers would have learned their lesson by now but seriously after playing current day MMOs it feels like these developers haven't really played any decent MMOs before themselves. Its like a Tailor trying to create Pharmaceuticals, something he doesn't know anything about.

They spent so much money on voice acting and yet character design was just pitiful. I have already forgotten who formed the Council of War and I just did that quest chain yesterday, can't even recall one name. Oh yea! I remember King Daryn (or whatever he is called) but only because how terrible his character was.

If you bring out a product in the market without paying attention to the strengths of your competitors you will always fail. Zeni and Beth just did that, they failed where their biggest competitor excels.

Xaei · April 2014

Don't remind me about Illidan from WoW. Illidan was my favorite character in Warcraft lore, and they just butchered him in WoW. His characteristic icon was that he's a hero who believed what he was doing was right but went horribly astray. That was not even one bit portrayed in WoW, in there he was just another villain you have to dispose of.

Kil'Jaedin, the same thing. The one thing you learnt about Kil'Jaedin from warcraft lore is that he does not do his bidding himself, he uses other people. Now look what happens in WoW.

Brimsurfer · April 2014

Well actions of Illidan made sense to me given the background of what happened and same with Kil'Jaedin but lets not go there (that's a different topic), the fact that you were able to recall these characters even after over half a decade and yet you still remember much about them, just goes to show what I am saying..... that these characters are unforgettable.

Do you see any characters in ESO that you might recall after half a decade as you can recall Illidan or any of the characters that I listed above? Yes Molag Bal is the one you may remember, but that would be mostly because of ES games and not ESO.

Xaei · April 2014

In all honesty, I'd probably remember Razum-dar.

And its not really the same. I don't remember those characters from WoW, I remember them from Warcraft lore.

Jonnymorrow · April 2014

There's an endgame????? You sure, I sure as hell can't find or see one.

Shotz · April 2014

Brimsurfer wrote: »

Do you see any characters in ESO that you might recall after half a decade as you can recall Illidan or any of the characters that I listed above?

Cadwell
and, uh...

Brimsurfer · April 2014

Jonnymorrow wrote: »

There's an endgame????? You sure, I sure as hell can't find or see one.

I meant the final part of main quest line, that basically begins in Cold Harbor region.

Spontaneous_Noms · April 2014

Shotz wrote: »

Brimsurfer wrote: »

Do you see any characters in ESO that you might recall after half a decade as you can recall Illidan or any of the characters that I listed above?

Cadwell
and, uh...

I'll actually remember most of the prominent characters. Cadwell because he's voiced by John Cleese, who uses the same tone and cadence he used for Jasper in Fable 3. Lyris because she's voiced by Jennifer Hale, who seems to be in everything. The Skald-King, because he's voiced by Peter Stormare, who typically plays really good villains. King Emeric, because I love me some Bill Nighy. Queen Ayrenn, because of Kate Beckinsale. Abnur Tharn, who seemed to express my exasperation with the plot. I'll also remember Mannimarco and the various other characters/deities that have appeared in previous games.

So Abnur Tharn is the only character that sticks in my memory for reasons other than "previous games and/or established character."

Xaei · April 2014

In all honesty, having had a look back upon the TES series, I don't think I can actually personally pick out many characters which are memorable. The series as a whole seems to have characters that are just rather bland and isolated from you.

... compared to stuff like Final Fantasy anyways.