Before you get too upset, remember that it's "Our main adjustment in Update 31 will be to Battle Spirit and focusing on the damage taken portion, increasing it so the base character takes 60% less overall damage, rather than 50%."

So in comparison to now, it'll only be 10% less damage taken.

It's not exactly going to kill the organized raids who coordinate their gear, movements, and attacks in voice comms...but then I'm not exactly sure that was ZOS' intent with this change, so much as something you want to happen.

It was always a problem.

ZOS changes something and the ones who benefit the most (or lose the least) are groups. It is the basic problem that is "worst enemy of balance" - multiplicity. If you make a set that heals or deal dmg it is balanced, but if you multiply it by 12 people then it becomes too OP. It is not ESO specific. Many multiplayer games have this issue. But in ESO, this is just taken to another level.

Tbh. They handled Pale Order ring nicely by making it less effective the more people are in the group.
It is they key sentence. Many sets and abilties should have similar condition in PvP. To be less efective by certain % the more people are in the group.

ZOS tried many times to force people to "spread out" and not stack. As a result, always, always every counter to ball group was in fact a buff for a ball gorup.

It actually amps up the amount of damage dealers and will actually result in shorter ttk as tankier specs begin to fade out from existence

Stx wrote: »

Then again, could that be their goal? Keep people paying, err playing by changing the gear meta?

This is the ultimate goal for most of ZOS' balance changes, yes. It's their main method of keeping the game from stagnating and keeping players grinding on the hamster wheel as they chase the meta.

Abyssmol wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Before you get too upset, remember that it's "Our main adjustment in Update 31 will be to Battle Spirit and focusing on the damage taken portion, increasing it so the base character takes 60% less overall damage, rather than 50%."

So in comparison to now, it'll only be 10% less damage taken.

It's not exactly going to kill the organized raids who coordinate their gear, movements, and attacks in voice comms...but then I'm not exactly sure that was ZOS' intent with this change, so much as something you want to happen.

It's not 10% less damage. It's a reduction of 20% damage taken.

Change/base - 1
.6 / .5 - 1 = .2

Odd proof of a correct result.

I'd say the change is from .5* BaseDamage to .4*BaseDamage. That is indeed a 20% reduction in damage experienced.

Horrible change. Giving everybody 20% dmg mitigation for free is the worst possible thing to do.

Also Battlespirit isn't 50% right now, it's 44 I think...

IIRC the shift in Battle Spirit from 50% to 44% was in response to giving the players (in both PvE and PvP) a base mitigation factor of 10%. So they decreased the Battle Spirit mitigation in order to not make players inordinately tanky after receiving this base of underlying mitigation.

I can only surmise that changing Battle Spirit from 50% to 60% implies that they will be removing the original 10% base mitigation that came with the CP 2.0 patch.

If they keep the base 10% and still raise Battle Spirit from 44% to 60% then players will indeed be absurdly tanky.

All of which is unfortunate since this high-damage meta has been one of the most enjoyable in recent memory.

Fawn4287 wrote: »

ZOS needs to tackle how effective groups are and how there are literally 0 drawbacks or downsides (other than bombers who can’t kill players who stack 35k health anyway). Groups, especially larger ones should have huge ultimate regen reductions on top of reductions to all stat regen. healing to others should be severely reduced to other players for PvP as a whole and even more severe for larger groups. The reason group play builds are so OP is because how often are large groups CCd? How often do large group players have to sprint, roll dodge, apply their own buffs and heal themselves? This is why they can stack so much more damage and tankyness because they essentially don’t have to do anything other than keep up with the group and dump ultimates then spam AOEs as someone calls it out. They don’t need to run over 2k regen like everyone else, their jewellery are all damage based, their sets are all damage based and their skills are all AOEs.

Why are large groups bad? Cyrodiil is a zone designed around large scale siege battles..

It may be stupid question (I mainly pve), but why does everyone wanna fight these ball groups? Especially solo. Should you really be able to solo fight 12 and kill them all? What would you call someone IRL who tried to fight 12 people, high opinion about themselves, crazy?

If you like to roll solo then why not find someone who's also solo or duo and fight them? Or if you like fighting big groups, why not get your own group and attack then?

It's like if I got salty about not being able to solo pve trials. Or am I missing something?

Kusto wrote: »

It may be stupid question (I mainly pve), but why does everyone wanna fight these ball groups? Especially solo. Should you really be able to solo fight 12 and kill them all? What would you call someone IRL who tried to fight 12 people, high opinion about themselves, crazy?

If you like to roll solo then why not find someone who's also solo or duo and fight them? Or if you like fighting big groups, why not get your own group and attack then?

It's like if I got salty about not being able to solo pve trials. Or am I missing something?

You will see a lot of entitled "1vX" players who for some reason think forming raids in a large scale pvp zone is bad or makes those players eligible for instalts (see post above mine). Heaven forbid players want to play in an organized group with their guild in an MMO.. Heaven forbid a non-min/Maxed character step foot in cyrodiil and seek safety in groups because if you are new or don't have good gear.

What's ironic is this game has by far the best tools for fighting groups of players out of any MMO that I can remember, but the whiners always want more because they think it is their right to take on a group of 30 so long as they are more 'skilled'.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

IIRC the shift in Battle Spirit from 50% to 44% was in response to giving the players (in both PvE and PvP) a base mitigation factor of 10%. So they decreased the Battle Spirit mitigation in order to not make players inordinately tanky after receiving this base of underlying mitigation.

I can only surmise that changing Battle Spirit from 50% to 60% implies that they will be removing the original 10% base mitigation that came with the CP 2.0 patch.

If they keep the base 10% and still raise Battle Spirit from 44% to 60% then players will indeed be absurdly tanky.

All of which is unfortunate since this high-damage meta has been one of the most enjoyable in recent memory.

Wah wah what?

I'm confused. There are extensive threads about people being too tanky AND about damage being too high (and bombers, and so on).

I find it very problematic that ZOS picks one thing, and dives in with blanket changes to battle spirit to resolve issues created by the changes they implemented last patch. Why not revisit the changes instead of Battle Spirit?

Equally problematic is that next patch, I will have around 68% damage mitigation base BS + CP. I can drop my defensive set, and go full offense with no loss of mitigation and a corresponding increase in healing power.

Stx wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

ZOS needs to tackle how effective groups are and how there are literally 0 drawbacks or downsides (other than bombers who can’t kill players who stack 35k health anyway). Groups, especially larger ones should have huge ultimate regen reductions on top of reductions to all stat regen. healing to others should be severely reduced to other players for PvP as a whole and even more severe for larger groups. The reason group play builds are so OP is because how often are large groups CCd? How often do large group players have to sprint, roll dodge, apply their own buffs and heal themselves? This is why they can stack so much more damage and tankyness because they essentially don’t have to do anything other than keep up with the group and dump ultimates then spam AOEs as someone calls it out. They don’t need to run over 2k regen like everyone else, their jewellery are all damage based, their sets are all damage based and their skills are all AOEs.

Why are large groups bad? Cyrodiil is a zone designed around large scale siege battles..

So, caveat here, I love playing healer in large raids with my PVP guild. It's great fun!

Yes, Cyrodiil is designed for large scale siege battles. However, there's a couple reasons why people gripe about large groups, and specifically ball groups, that are mostly legitimate.

1. Even ZOS acknowledges that they are really powerful. Rich Lambert described them as "Over the years, player power has grown considerably. With the addition of the Champion System, various armor/weapons sets, and changes to abilities, we have reached the stage where players - with the right build - can cast near-infinite numbers of abilities. If you add in a properly managed group, with some focused on damage and some focused on healing and regen boosts, you have a perpetually running never-ending stream of abilities."

Groups that are smaller or less coordinated simply cannot achieve the same effect, which means they need a big numbers advantage to fight a properly built ball group. Players who are skilled individually or in small scale struggle to crack a ball group, even though they might be able to defeat 12 or more less coordinated players.


2. It's hard to overstate the advantage that a PVP guild who coordinates their gear, roles, movement, attacks, and sticks together while communicating in voice comms has, even with the above description. Like, think of it as the equivalent of having a minor league basketball team drop in on your pickup league. It'd be a slaughter. Good ball groups absolutely slaughter PUGs unless the PUGs bring a faction stack to fight them. For a lot of players, this sort of gameplay doesn't feel good. People like to feel like they have a chance to win, and a properly built ball group is very hard to crack. Similarly, you can be a great individual player, but the teamwork of the ball group is such that it's hard to

3. Large fights cause Cyrodiil's performance to tank. Now, ZOS has never been able to confirm that ball groups are the cause of Cyrodiil's performance woes. They tried testing changes designed to target ball groups and didn't find anything. Nonetheless, the is a strong correlation between ball groups causing large fights causing performance to tank. Ball groups aren't the sole cause of large fights, but if a ball group holes up in a keep, you can bet it'll take a substantial number of PUGs to pry them out.

4. Much like top trial groups, ball groups seem immune to ZOS' attempts to nerf them. Solo or small scale players simply can't adapt the way a group of 12 can change roles and gear to cover their new weaknesses, nor to take advantage of new buffs to the same extent. The result is that ball groups are effected less by nerfs and wring the most benefit from most buffs than everyone else.


5. Ball group play is all about group cohesion and working together as a group. For players who value showing their individual skill as Fighters, ball groups are the anti-thesis of individual skill. I've heard stuff like this a fair bit "You pull a ball group member out and they lose in an individual duel or try to run back to their group. These people suck as players."

From my perspective as a ball group healer, my individual skill really does take second place to the good of the group. If I get pulled out, of course I'm not going to try to duel someone in my healer build! That'd be silly, when I need to be running away to get back to my group!

Again, players don't like to lose. Now, imagine being a skilled solo or small scale player who is continually losing, update after update, to players who are godlike in their group and easy prey once you separate them. I can see where that gets frustrating.

And so there's a bit of a perception that ball group play is for unskilled players. Personally, it varies. I'm okay in small scale when I build for it, but nothing amazing. Some of my guildmates were really good at solo and small scale, but when it was time for raid, they could flip a switch and suddenly it was all about the group play. A good ball group really needs players who are willing to put aside their individual playstyles to focus solely on playing and moving as a cohesive whole while following the Crown's commands, and that's the opposite of how good small-scalers who just do small scale or solo like to play.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

ZOS needs to tackle how effective groups are and how there are literally 0 drawbacks or downsides (other than bombers who can’t kill players who stack 35k health anyway). Groups, especially larger ones should have huge ultimate regen reductions on top of reductions to all stat regen. healing to others should be severely reduced to other players for PvP as a whole and even more severe for larger groups. The reason group play builds are so OP is because how often are large groups CCd? How often do large group players have to sprint, roll dodge, apply their own buffs and heal themselves? This is why they can stack so much more damage and tankyness because they essentially don’t have to do anything other than keep up with the group and dump ultimates then spam AOEs as someone calls it out. They don’t need to run over 2k regen like everyone else, their jewellery are all damage based, their sets are all damage based and their skills are all AOEs.

Why are large groups bad? Cyrodiil is a zone designed around large scale siege battles..

So, caveat here, I love playing healer in large raids with my PVP guild. It's great fun!

Yes, Cyrodiil is designed for large scale siege battles. However, there's a couple reasons why people gripe about large groups, and specifically ball groups, that are mostly legitimate.

1. Even ZOS acknowledges that they are really powerful. Rich Lambert described them as "Over the years, player power has grown considerably. With the addition of the Champion System, various armor/weapons sets, and changes to abilities, we have reached the stage where players - with the right build - can cast near-infinite numbers of abilities. If you add in a properly managed group, with some focused on damage and some focused on healing and regen boosts, you have a perpetually running never-ending stream of abilities."

Groups that are smaller or less coordinated simply cannot achieve the same effect, which means they need a big numbers advantage to fight a properly built ball group. Players who are skilled individually or in small scale struggle to crack a ball group, even though they might be able to defeat 12 or more less coordinated players.


2. It's hard to overstate the advantage that a PVP guild who coordinates their gear, roles, movement, attacks, and sticks together while communicating in voice comms has, even with the above description. Like, think of it as the equivalent of having a minor league basketball team drop in on your pickup league. It'd be a slaughter. Good ball groups absolutely slaughter PUGs unless the PUGs bring a faction stack to fight them. For a lot of players, this sort of gameplay doesn't feel good. People like to feel like they have a chance to win, and a properly built ball group is very hard to crack. Similarly, you can be a great individual player, but the teamwork of the ball group is such that it's hard to

3. Large fights cause Cyrodiil's performance to tank. Now, ZOS has never been able to confirm that ball groups are the cause of Cyrodiil's performance woes. They tried testing changes designed to target ball groups and didn't find anything. Nonetheless, the is a strong correlation between ball groups causing large fights causing performance to tank. Ball groups aren't the sole cause of large fights, but if a ball group holes up in a keep, you can bet it'll take a substantial number of PUGs to pry them out.

4. Much like top trial groups, ball groups seem immune to ZOS' attempts to nerf them. Solo or small scale players simply can't adapt the way a group of 12 can change roles and gear to cover their new weaknesses, nor to take advantage of new buffs to the same extent. The result is that ball groups are effected less by nerfs and wring the most benefit from most buffs than everyone else.


5. Ball group play is all about group cohesion and working together as a group. For players who value showing their individual skill as Fighters, ball groups are the anti-thesis of individual skill. I've heard stuff like this a fair bit "You pull a ball group member out and they lose in an individual duel or try to run back to their group. These people suck as players."

From my perspective as a ball group healer, my individual skill really does take second place to the good of the group. If I get pulled out, of course I'm not going to try to duel someone in my healer build! That'd be silly, when I need to be running away to get back to my group!

Again, players don't like to lose. Now, imagine being a skilled solo or small scale player who is continually losing, update after update, to players who are godlike in their group and easy prey once you separate them. I can see where that gets frustrating.

And so there's a bit of a perception that ball group play is for unskilled players. Personally, it varies. I'm okay in small scale when I build for it, but nothing amazing. Some of my guildmates were really good at solo and small scale, but when it was time for raid, they could flip a switch and suddenly it was all about the group play. A good ball group really needs players who are willing to put aside their individual playstyles to focus solely on playing and moving as a cohesive whole while following the Crown's commands, and that's the opposite of how good small-scalers who just do small scale or solo like to play.

Cyrodiil will lag when there is ANY large concentration of players in a single area - be that ball groups or a faction-stack of random zone players. And it will lag not only in the area where the fight is occurring but anywhere on the map.

That said, it has been observed that when certain ball groups are on the map that performance actually does tank. That is less a function of their being a ball group and more a function of the suspected use of macros and AoE CC spam that is intended to induce lag. You can pick up lots of interesting information about this behavior by careful scrutiny of logs where those particular groups are present.

TLDR; Ball groups writ large aren't inducing lag but certain groups using certain ability patterns highly likely are. Of course, the game will also lag whenever there is a large keep fight with dozens of zone players as well. Better servers would assist in all of these scenarios.