HOW and WHEN are you going to "fix" the bombers?

NordSwordnBoard · July 2021

Zoal

YandereGirlfriend · July 2021

You can't pay me enough gold to repair a door or stand on a resource flag during Midyear Mayhem.

It's like that popular saying about the Dallas Cowboys - it's an accident waiting to happen!

Greasytengu · July 2021

instead of standing inside of groups, try standing 20 feet away and spamming heals and aoe damage on the group's feet to deter and defend against bombs.

Frozen gate is an excellent way to thwart a bomb, simply put it down in the area of a potential bomb, back away 20 feet, and hold block.

katorga · July 2021

Just curious, what exactly has improved bombers this patch compared to bombing before noproc?

Anything?

Or is it just that players got complacent during noproc making it easier to bomb?

jaws343 · July 2021

katorga wrote: »

Just curious, what exactly has improved bombers this patch compared to bombing before noproc?

Anything?

Or is it just that players got complacent during noproc making it easier to bomb?

I believe it is mostly the lowered amount of damage mitigation from the CP change. People are a bit squishier than they were the last time bombers were able to function in cyrodil.

gamma71 · July 2021

Alucardo wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

honestly, this sounds like a player issue and not a game issue. there's a solid way to counter bombers that doesn't take much effort at all. and that is not stacking.

That's awesome. Can you tell me how to react and not get one shot when walking through a door just as it goes off?

It doesn't matter. I personally try not to stack but guess what you can't control other players from getting close to you or is your whole effort in the game is to stay away from every person that may stray your way.
Ie I'm on siege or repairing a door and blocking doesn't guarantee you are not gonna die.

paulychan · July 2021

katorga wrote: »

Just curious, what exactly has improved bombers this patch compared to bombing before noproc?

Anything?

Or is it just that players got complacent during noproc making it easier to bomb?

pushing SD to hit the highest proc from VD. I think many hoped we couldn't hit a good SD stack number. They were wrong.
MYM, proc bombs having been gone a while and high SD/WD bomb builds = a lot of people having a "blast" bombing.

eidt for clarity.
with a higher sd, everything hits like a truck. its almost as if I was shorting myself before by not pushing SD and relying on crit.
also, the high crit damage possible this patch prolly added to it.
My tool tips are super juicy this patch. high damage from, in assuming, pushing sd

Melivar · July 2021

How are we supposed to laugh at the 4-6 people in our groups who have been told multiple times to block /keep buffs up so they don't get us all killed if they change anything about a bomb?

Some of the best laughs I have had in PVP have come from the end of a well timed well chosen bomb at a resource flag or going in to loot Molag Bal's corpse.

It is easily avoided in 95% of the situations where bombs happen and likely in the other 5% if you have recently been bombed.

Andre_Noir · July 2021

The thing is, well, there a lot of sets that made for siege, battles in keeps etc. But you just can't change them in a right moment thanks to forever "in battle".
But even without it, I do believe that crystal nerds and overall 2H overperformance is a much much more an issue

ixthUA · July 2021

I thought the whole purpose of MYM event was to lure people into a PVP zone to get them killed by PVPers. PVPers are customers too and need content aka player kills.

Amottica · July 2021

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I can help you fix them.

Step one: Don't stand directly on the flag you're flipping.

Step two: Identify and avoid friendly squishies! If they're under 25k hp, be far away.

Step three: If you must be on a flag, keep defensive buffs up and block. The entirety of a bomber's normal combo is blockable (proxy, sap, lotus fan, even the ult!), so block!

Let me know if these steps would help your situation.

Much of this makes sense I am new to the game. I saw someone blocking on the flag and realized it was a good idea even before I found out about bombers.

After finding out I saw the benefit of spreading out to minimize the damage. I think it is great that there is a skill useful against large groups and that large groups can work to minimize that skill's effectiveness. That combination seems to be a good design.

The example OP gave in a follow-up post, about repairing the door. It would make sense to have some players looking out for attacks and I have seen players put down AoEs to prevent sneak attacks. Also, the door seems to quickly repair to the point no one can get in anymore. That and sweeping the keep for stray enemies to clear out possible bombers already in the gate seems like a great idea.

Just my thoughts. I realize I do not know as much of this game as most here do.

darvaria · July 2021

The_Lex wrote: »

OP, I can see from your comment history that you just hate ganking in general. Please don’t advocate for the removal of an entire play style that has existed in the fantasy genre for decades just because you hate it. In each thread where you’ve commented on the subject, people have given you great defensive advice.

I've been 5 star since 2017, emp several times. I don't really need defensive advise. I've never seen a time when a bomber could wipe people with 34K health, 3k impen. Something is wrong here. Only if I'm "doing something" have I been ganked, even in this expansion, with the exception of a few bombers right after the patch.

NEVER have I seen it like this. Of course, at resources I stand back holding block and don't get wiped. I'm talking about players that barely pvp and 8 of them wiped out. 2 or 3 times and they leave. This is killing PVP. I hate seeing weaklings destroyed instantly. They should at least have a chance. ZOS should not allow this. This is not consistent with PVP objectives.

The average player shouldn't have to use detect pots/magelight constantly. It's supposed to be PVP, not PVB. I'm not particularly worried about myself and have saved lots of random players. Gotten hate tells every time I play online (which I rarely do) telling me to "mind my own business".

Just saying, this is going to STOP. A matter of time and when. Should be sooner than later. If nothing else, the lack of participants after this event will take care of this.

Nerfs incoming!

jaws343 · July 2021

darvaria wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

OP, I can see from your comment history that you just hate ganking in general. Please don’t advocate for the removal of an entire play style that has existed in the fantasy genre for decades just because you hate it. In each thread where you’ve commented on the subject, people have given you great defensive advice.

I've never seen a time when a bomber could wipe people with 34K health, 3k impen. Something is wrong here. Only if I'm "doing something" have I been ganked, even in this expansion.

I think this is your mistake here. Bombers aren't wiping 34K health 3K impen players. Bombers are killing the 20-25K health light armor players who are stacking alongside the tankier players. And with too many people stacking too tightly on flags, that chain reaction is killing the tankier players. Don't stack on flags if you are weak, and the bombers will not wipe tankier players. And if you are a tankier player getting wiped from a bomb, that is the fault of the other players around you.

It's always been this way with bombing, nothing at all has changed about it. People just got complacent for 3 months and for some reason don't know how to readjust.

YandereGirlfriend · July 2021

katorga wrote: »

Just curious, what exactly has improved bombers this patch compared to bombing before noproc?

Anything?

Or is it just that players got complacent during noproc making it easier to bomb?

A lot of things:

A. Big free base stats for all players (e.g. 1000 Weapon/Spell Damage + Max Resources) - provides larger base of damage to multiply against Critical Damage modifiers.

B. Proc set scaling enabled - so that Vicious Death hits harder than it ever could before.

C. Vicious Death range buffed in the last patch - radius of the set is now increased by ~60%.

D. CP and other changes that weakened Critical Resistance enhanced sources of Critical Damage modifiers.

Amottica · July 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

OP, I can see from your comment history that you just hate ganking in general. Please don’t advocate for the removal of an entire play style that has existed in the fantasy genre for decades just because you hate it. In each thread where you’ve commented on the subject, people have given you great defensive advice.

I've never seen a time when a bomber could wipe people with 34K health, 3k impen. Something is wrong here. Only if I'm "doing something" have I been ganked, even in this expansion.

I think this is your mistake here. Bombers aren't wiping 34K health 3K impen players. Bombers are killing the 20-25K health light armor players who are stacking alongside the tankier players. And with too many people stacking too tightly on flags, that chain reaction is killing the tankier players. Don't stack on flags if you are weak, and the bombers will not wipe tankier players. And if you are a tankier player getting wiped from a bomb, that is the fault of the other players around you.

It's always been this way with bombing, nothing at all has changed about it. People just got complacent for 3 months and for some reason don't know how to readjust.

I have changed this post from asking OP for a SS as this person explains the situation well. I realize this can be frustrating but in a PvP where groups can be fairly large, it makes sense to give players skills to counter large organized groups making those large organized groups adjust their strategy.

NoSoup · July 2021

Bombing is a legitimate playstyle, thats why there is an entire set dedicated to it.

Gotta love the sense of entitlement, "me and my crew should be allowed to 6man a keep with a ram but bombers are bad"

Oakenaxe · July 2021

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I can help you fix them.

Step one: Don't stand directly on the flag you're flipping.

Step two: Identify and avoid friendly squishies! If they're under 25k hp, be far away.

Step three: If you must be on a flag, keep defensive buffs up and block. The entirety of a bomber's normal combo is blockable (proxy, sap, lotus fan, even the ult!), so block!

Let me know if these steps would help your situation.

Exactly this! These days when I die to a bomber I don't get pissed, I just think "nice!" or laugh, because I know they timed everything right. It's the only thing they can do anyway, the only way they work, you will see a lot of failed attempts after you get used to their mechanics, but also a lot of beautifully done ones, and I actually enjoy both of them! hehe

NoSoup · July 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Just curious, what exactly has improved bombers this patch compared to bombing before noproc?

Anything?

Or is it just that players got complacent during noproc making it easier to bomb?

A lot of things:

A. Big free base stats for all players (e.g. 1000 Weapon/Spell Damage + Max Resources) - provides larger base of damage to multiply against Critical Damage modifiers.

B. Proc set scaling enabled - so that Vicious Death hits harder than it ever could before.

C. Vicious Death range buffed in the last patch - radius of the set is now increased by ~60%.

D. CP and other changes that weakened Critical Resistance enhanced sources of Critical Damage modifiers.

This is a lie, the Proc set scaling has made it harder to achieve the same # in terms of damage than the previous patch due to how high the spell damage requirement was set. You need over 6k SD to get close to the numbers VD had previous patch.

More than anything its complacency. I don't know if its Midyear Mayhem causing it that has brought in a lot of inexperienced players or players in general just got use to no bombers but its been YEARS since I've seen the number of tight balls asking to be bombed that I've seen the last few nights on PC|NA AEST prime time.

Sephyr · July 2021

Oakenaxe wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I can help you fix them.

Step one: Don't stand directly on the flag you're flipping.

Step two: Identify and avoid friendly squishies! If they're under 25k hp, be far away.

Step three: If you must be on a flag, keep defensive buffs up and block. The entirety of a bomber's normal combo is blockable (proxy, sap, lotus fan, even the ult!), so block!

Let me know if these steps would help your situation.

Exactly this! These days when I die to a bomber I don't get pissed, I just think "nice!" or laugh, because I know they timed everything right. It's the only thing they can do anyway, the only way they work, you will see a lot of failed attempts after you get used to their mechanics, but also a lot of beautifully done ones, and I actually enjoy both of them! hehe

I also love some people who actually engage in bombing tactics while in Cyrodiil. I learned a lot this MYM.

Abyssmol · July 2021

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Bombing has existed in the game since very early on. It’s a play style that has high risk and high reward and shouldn’t be “fixed”. There are things you can do to limit a bombers effectiveness already like not stacking, clearing keeps fully after flipping etc. If a bomber still gets you so what that’s their play style and objective.

Play style you say - Two or three bombers bombing one player. That's what I see now in Cyrodiil, and if you survive that, they don't even have the courage to stay out of cloak. Cloak back again and start the process. Cyrodiil is overran by NB bombers. And no it's not fun when you are fighting someone and three cowards bomb you. The game is becoming hide and seek online.

NoSoup · July 2021

Abyssmol wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Bombing has existed in the game since very early on. It’s a play style that has high risk and high reward and shouldn’t be “fixed”. There are things you can do to limit a bombers effectiveness already like not stacking, clearing keeps fully after flipping etc. If a bomber still gets you so what that’s their play style and objective.

Play style you say - Two or three bombers bombing one player. That's what I see now in Cyrodiil, and if you survive that, they don't even have the courage to stay out of cloak. Cloak back again and start the process. Cyrodiil is overran by NB bombers. And no it's not fun when you are fighting someone and three cowards bomb you. The game is becoming hide and seek online.

Ahhhhhhh that's not being bomb'd.....that's a couple of people trying to gank you....

Sephyr · July 2021

NoSoup wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Bombing has existed in the game since very early on. It’s a play style that has high risk and high reward and shouldn’t be “fixed”. There are things you can do to limit a bombers effectiveness already like not stacking, clearing keeps fully after flipping etc. If a bomber still gets you so what that’s their play style and objective.

Play style you say - Two or three bombers bombing one player. That's what I see now in Cyrodiil, and if you survive that, they don't even have the courage to stay out of cloak. Cloak back again and start the process. Cyrodiil is overran by NB bombers. And no it's not fun when you are fighting someone and three cowards bomb you. The game is becoming hide and seek online.

Ahhhhhhh that's not being bomb'd.....that's a couple of people trying to gank you....

Yeah, that definitely sounds like ganking.

When 6-12 people just flatline and fall to the ground beside you? That's a good bomb right there.

sharquez · July 2021

First observe how it happens from the outside.

https://youtu.be/Q8HLKMgV_jk

Then take appropriate counter measures within your group.

Sephyr · July 2021

sharquez wrote: »

First observe how it happens from the outside.

https://youtu.be/Q8HLKMgV_jk

Then take appropriate counter measures within your group.

The sound effects are just... BEAUTIFUL.

darvaria · July 2021

[/quote]

I think this is your mistake here. Bombers aren't wiping 34K health 3K impen players. Bombers are killing the 20-25K health light armor players who are stacking alongside the tankier players. And with too many people stacking too tightly on flags, that chain reaction is killing the tankier players. Don't stack on flags if you are weak, and the bombers will not wipe tankier players. And if you are a tankier player getting wiped from a bomb, that is the fault of the other players around you.

It's always been this way with bombing, nothing at all has changed about it. People just got complacent for 3 months and for some reason don't know how to readjust.[/quote]

Last night I was rezzing someone. I have 34K health, 2864 impen, Pariah, Medusa, Earthgore. No enemy players in sight. Probably didn't have my shield up. Bomber comes in that we never see. Before or after. Not sure but think he got 3 or 4 ppl.

Of course with rejev, Pariah, Earth Gore, Shield, you don't die. But I shouldn't have to keep this up all the time. I did see 30 plus bombing attempts fail, as if you have rejuv on, it procs earthgore. Have to say I see more failing now than getting bombs off.

Make it where they can't stealth after loading up Proxy Det. Put some delay in this. Limit it to ONE proc.

I KNOW this is going to be fixed. These gankers and bombers are going around mostly looking for players with low hp. I'm probably getting targeted more because my alliance rank on my necro is low. No solo gankers got me last night and 100% of them died in their attempts.

But I look at this as online bullying. Targeting weaker players. Just the pitiful comments of players of like "why do I suck? why do I get one shot?" This is bullying. And we KNOW that bullying is not accepted in 2021. You are letting these few players absolutely ruin this for less experienced players.

ZOS needs to fix this now. At least make it to where your defensive procs go off before getting 1 shot.

oXI_Viper_IXo · July 2021

darvaria wrote: »

But I look at this as online bullying. Targeting weaker players. Just the pitiful comments of players of like "why do I suck? why do I get one shot?" This is bullying. And we KNOW that bullying is not accepted in 2021. You are letting these few players absolutely ruin this for less experienced players.

ZOS needs to fix this now. At least make it to where your defensive procs go off before getting 1 shot.

Bullying? Give me a break...

There are many counters to bombers, most people would rather complain on the forums though than actively do anything about it.

Sephyr · July 2021

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

But I look at this as online bullying. Targeting weaker players. Just the pitiful comments of players of like "why do I suck? why do I get one shot?" This is bullying. And we KNOW that bullying is not accepted in 2021. You are letting these few players absolutely ruin this for less experienced players.

ZOS needs to fix this now. At least make it to where your defensive procs go off before getting 1 shot.

Bullying? Give me a break...

There are many counters to bombers, most people would rather complain on the forums though than actively do anything about it.

I too find their statement strange.

The thing about bombers is that they target the weakest to take down the strongest in the group if they're stacked together. Most bombers can't take down someone with a ton of health, so of course they're going to go for the weakest. That's not bullying, that's strategy. In the real world, armies use that tactic all the time. Cyrodiil is a warzone. That's something that overlapped pretty well. The same also applies with gankers. If someone is slow or not paying attention, they're going to get ganked.

But bullying? That's... A heckin' stretch of the truth.

As for actively doing anything about it, I think it's because they don't understand how the counters work. Especially when they don't sweep keeps and outposts properly. Last night I slipped into an enemy keep when the outer front door was open. My side lost, the door was repaired, but I was ganking people in that keep for almost 20 minutes. Not once did someone even think to throw flares, pop a detect potion, throw caltrops, or even bust out a magelight, AoE, SOMETHING. The NPC guards did more to counter me than people in the keep did.

The_Lex · July 2021

Sephyr wrote: »

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

But I look at this as online bullying. Targeting weaker players. Just the pitiful comments of players of like "why do I suck? why do I get one shot?" This is bullying. And we KNOW that bullying is not accepted in 2021. You are letting these few players absolutely ruin this for less experienced players.

ZOS needs to fix this now. At least make it to where your defensive procs go off before getting 1 shot.

Bullying? Give me a break...

There are many counters to bombers, most people would rather complain on the forums though than actively do anything about it.

I too find their statement strange.

The thing about bombers is that they target the weakest to take down the strongest in the group if they're stacked together. Most bombers can't take down someone with a ton of health, so of course they're going to go for the weakest. That's not bullying, that's strategy. In the real world, armies use that tactic all the time. Cyrodiil is a warzone. That's something that overlapped pretty well. The same also applies with gankers. If someone is slow or not paying attention, they're going to get ganked.

But bullying? That's... A heckin' stretch of the truth.

As for actively doing anything about it, I think it's because they don't understand how the counters work. Especially when they don't sweep keeps and outposts properly. Last night I slipped into an enemy keep when the outer front door was open. My side lost, the door was repaired, but I was ganking people in that keep for almost 20 minutes. Not once did someone even think to throw flares, pop a detect potion, throw caltrops, or even bust out a magelight, AoE, SOMETHING. The NPC guards did more to counter me than people in the keep did.

Well said. PvP is about being vigilant and aware of your circumstances. I’m not a bomber, but I have done some ganking. I can’t even begin to tell you how often I see people looking in their bags or staring at a map while not in stealth. Sometimes they’re afk on a horse. I’ve also seen quite a few players with less than 30k health. These are legitimate targets. Anything less than 30k health is a one-shot. Is it toxic for me to capitalize on the opportunity? I don’t think so.

Another issue is that throwing around the “online bullying” term so loosely minimizes the real victims of online bullying.

relentless_turnip · July 2021

Bombers are annoying, but also totally a legit playstyle. If it disrupts you completing your objective they are playing the objective.
I don't have a bomber nor have I ever played one. Nothing to fix IMO. They are totally counter able, stay frosty out there!

NordSwordnBoard · July 2021

Lmao. Ever see 5 players flush out a night blade? That looks like bullying. It is not though, and neither is one nb attacking a larger group. I love how the weakest player responsible for starting the chain reaction is a victim of bullying, not unprepared and a liability to their team's success.

I think we need a dungeon boss who uses VD to teach pvers how it works. Maybe uncle Sheo can add a tutorial using pungent cheeses with low health to show the VD radius.