Wardens - something doesn't add up

Marcus_Aurelius · June 2021

Reading the forum it would seem that Wardens are so op that everyone plays them in Cyro.

Post after post callinf to nerf them cause
"Wardens are killing Cyro".
"90 of the players are wardens"
......

Then i see this:

Andre_Noir · June 2021

Then you see a part of a random screenshot without any proofs and comments or descriptions ? Glad for you

Lughlongarm · June 2021

Not sure where this screen shot is from but let me tell you this, this is good ZOS balance team is hardly paying any attention to this forum. All the commotion around Wardens is basically the same group of around 10 players spamm tons of reticules threads regarding Wardens and Wardens specific skills.

Truth is, I don't see that many Wardens on BG, as always the majority is NB and Sorcs. Regarding open world PvP, just browse youtube for builds or watch twtich ESO streamers and you will see that Wardens are not that popular.

I'm sure ZOS got better data to measure everything but from my own impression, wardens are definitely not the flavor of the month.

relentless_turnip · June 2021

Everybody's death statistics would be totally different. It's as biased as pigeon holing wardens, but with probably less merit.
My death statistics on my stamsorc would probably mainly consist of stamdks if memory serves as I can't reset low health as they leap. I rarely die to magsorc or NB's despite being equally as glassy. My build is better equipped to deal with particular classes coincidentally from the way I wish to play. On my other classes it may be different opponents.

It is my opinion that wardens are the most op this patch. Simply because they are better equipped to deal with high damage than any other class. Their tankiness probably does need looking at, but it doesn't particularly bother me either. I'd normally just ignore someone too tanky or constantly turtling.

Marcus_Aurelius · June 2021

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Then you see a part of a random screenshot without any proofs and comments or descriptions ? Glad for you

I always forget console have no addon, sorry.
Almost all people doing PvP on PC uses this addon called Kill Counter.

These are the recorded death of my PvP characther, a brawler magblade playing in EU/no CP - Rawenwatch.

Andre_Noir · June 2021

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Truth is, I don't see that many Wardens on BG, as always the majority is NB and Sorcs.

...Because they are FREE classes that many casuals choose. But when you look at "power" pvp-players that most of the time in Cyro/IC you will quickly realise that there MOSTLY necrowardencancer. And when I talk about that cancer I mean that it's almost exclusive stamina. I don't remember any Cyro nolifers on those classes with a mag spec.
Without jokes I met at some nights a group that after punish at keep gates flip to a group of wardens and necro only

Lughlongarm · June 2021

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Truth is, I don't see that many Wardens on BG, as always the majority is NB and Sorcs.

...Because they are FREE classes that many casuals choose. But when you look at "power" pvp-players that most of the time in Cyro/IC you will quickly realise that there MOSTLY necrowardencancer. And when I talk about that cancer I mean that it's almost exclusive stamina. I don't remember any Cyro nolifers on those classes with a mag spec.
Without jokes I met at some nights a group that after punish at keep gates flip to a group of wardens and necro only

Almost sure that Warden is a free class for a while now.
Also, my MMR is quite good so I see the sweaty builds as well. Most Wardens I see on BG are healing support builds.
Regarding CP Cyro, I try to avoid it due to performance so I will take your word for it. But the twichers I follow don't play a stamden. Only Nes eso, I think.

Reverb · June 2021

That screenshot just makes me think you get ganked a lot.

nukk3r · June 2021

Here's my sample. I play magden and this is ~1.5yrs worth of data.

Your sample is way too small to be indicative of anything. Are you sure you're not misunderstanding the statistics?
More kills from NBs mean they're more effective/successful in killing you. This doesn't mean that they prevail in cyro. Also many of those kills may be magblades in ballgroups or solo bombers.

Data from KC doesn't give you any breakdown of the class specs of the players you engaged, like were they mag or stam, solo or group. Someone may kill you with an oil and it'll still count towards that class. I don't think that we can draw any serious conclusions from KC statistics.

Marcus_Aurelius · June 2021

nukk3r wrote: »

Here's my sample. I play magden and this is ~1.5yrs worth of data.

Your data just corroborate my theory.
Reading the forum Wardens should be at least at 90%.
I'm only saying that people are over-exaggerating things to prove their theory but numbers tells a very different story.

nukk3r · June 2021

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Here's my sample. I play magden and this is ~1.5yrs worth of data.

Your data just corroborate my theory.
Reading the forum Wardens should be at least at 90%.
I'm only saying that people are over-exaggerating things to prove their theory but numbers tells a very different story.

I merely pointed out that your data is incomplete and clearly lacks a full picture. You're misinterpreting data and making invalid claims. No real science works this way.

My data doesn't prove your theory, it just means that I died to fewer wardens than NBs. In the same vein, if we invite a DK main to share their KC stats, I'm sure they'll look different. Historically they don't have any troubles with NBs.

Marcus_Aurelius · June 2021

nukk3r wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Here's my sample. I play magden and this is ~1.5yrs worth of data.

Your data just corroborate my theory.
Reading the forum Wardens should be at least at 90%.
I'm only saying that people are over-exaggerating things to prove their theory but numbers tells a very different story.

I merely pointed out that your data is incomplete and clearly lacks a full picture. You're misinterpreting data and making invalid claims. No real science works this way.

I don't agree.
Statiscally speaking if 90% of players are Warden as stated in this forum this number should be reflected in the above numbers.
I'm not saying the number should be 90%, it could be 80/70 or even 50% but your number is at 20%.
I agree that the statistic sample is little but still with more then 1500 samples such a big difference in results means somenthig.
I think that this alone is a clear indication that what is told in the forum about the numeric class composition in PvP is just wrong and full of prejudice.

nukk3r · June 2021

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Here's my sample. I play magden and this is ~1.5yrs worth of data.

Your data just corroborate my theory.
Reading the forum Wardens should be at least at 90%.
I'm only saying that people are over-exaggerating things to prove their theory but numbers tells a very different story.

I merely pointed out that your data is incomplete and clearly lacks a full picture. You're misinterpreting data and making invalid claims. No real science works this way.

I don't agree.
Statiscally speaking if 90% of players are Warden as stated in this forum this number should be reflected in the above numbers.
I'm not saying the number should be 90%, it could be 80/70 or even 50% but your number is at 20%.
I agree that the statistic sample is little but still with more then 1500 samples such a big difference in results means somenthig.
I think that this alone is a clear indication that what is told in the forum about the numeric class composition in PvP is just wrong and full of prejudice.

You're using statistical data to prove your own biases. And if we're going into "someone said on forums that 90% of players are wardens" territory, i'll quote yourself back to you. This screenshot contradicts this post's premise because sorcs are responsible for 20% of your death recaps.

I pointed out inconsistencies in your argumentation. If you're trying to use scientific methods to support your hypothesis, at least do it right.

Kaysha · June 2021

come over to Grey Host and marvel the full glory of all warden/necro smallgroups or even 12mans.

Anyron · June 2021

Oh hello marcus_aurelius

Another post about how wardens are not op?

Look, you may not like it but it is how it is. Its not coincidense most of forums think wardens are op. Its not conspiracy theory. There is reason for it.

I know it may not seem to you that way because you play one. It often seems like class you play with is weak, its same with every player. But when numerous people repeatedly decides warden is op, it probably is.

Sorry

Kaysha · June 2021

3wardens+1templar comes to my mind. you might even be able to get some vids on the first page of pvp combat and skills

Waffennacht · June 2021

Wardens are strong, they just arent as common.

Same with necro.

While I know warden and necro are stronger than most classes; players still use them less.

Probably a few reasons;
Base game classes probably means more mains
People usually stay away from fotm
People dont have one leveled

divnyi · June 2021

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Then i see this:

What can we learn from this picture?

Statistics with total sample size <100 is inaccurate

OP character has toughness issues

Vizirith · June 2021

This literally proves nothing at all...

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Everybody's death statistics would be totally different. It's as biased as pigeon holing wardens, but with probably less merit.
My death statistics on my stamsorc would probably mainly consist of stamdks if memory serves as I can't reset low health as they leap. I rarely die to magsorc or NB's despite being equally as glassy. My build is better equipped to deal with particular classes coincidentally from the way I wish to play. .

Take this example, on my stamsorc my most common killer is magsorcs and 2nd nbs but they are also the most common classes I kill (sample size around 200). Because either relentless is better at combating those classes than me or there's a build difference. He says he dies to stamdk's while they are one of the lowest classes I die to. So what exactly does that prove? All my other characters have different killers vs killed classes. My magdk is good against sorcs but weaker against templars. My stamdk is decent against sorcs but not great against necros. My magplar is good against nbs but weaker against sorcs.

monkiie · June 2021

stam sorc and stam nightblade strongest specs in pvp and people still crying about wardens go figure.

ResidentContrarian · June 2021

There is a reason why no one takes what a person "sees" as evidence without also seeing it for themselves.

Also, if anyone is not using a Gaze of Sithis Warden they are really just sleep. Still at the top, but with the various "gaze" builds, probably higher than any other class in the game no matter what screenshot you post.

Good thing no one has used such builds as an emperor yet...

Extinct_Solo_Player · June 2021

Warden is in the top 3 best classes currently. Posting some crappy screenshot without enough data doesn't change the fact it's a Very strong class.

Mayrael · June 2021

nukk3r wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Here's my sample. I play magden and this is ~1.5yrs worth of data.

Your data just corroborate my theory.
Reading the forum Wardens should be at least at 90%.
I'm only saying that people are over-exaggerating things to prove their theory but numbers tells a very different story.

I merely pointed out that your data is incomplete and clearly lacks a full picture. You're misinterpreting data and making invalid claims. No real science works this way.

I don't agree.
Statiscally speaking if 90% of players are Warden as stated in this forum this number should be reflected in the above numbers.
I'm not saying the number should be 90%, it could be 80/70 or even 50% but your number is at 20%.
I agree that the statistic sample is little but still with more then 1500 samples such a big difference in results means somenthig.
I think that this alone is a clear indication that what is told in the forum about the numeric class composition in PvP is just wrong and full of prejudice.

You're using statistical data to prove your own biases. And if we're going into "someone said on forums that 90% of players are wardens" territory, i'll quote yourself back to you. This screenshot contradicts this post's premise because sorcs are responsible for 20% of your death recaps.

I pointed out inconsistencies in your argumentation. If you're trying to use scientific methods to support your hypothesis, at least do it right.

I think this post KO'ed OP

Rhaegar75 · June 2021

oh my gosh are we still debating how strong Wardens are?!?!?!? Stamden especially are grossly OP...call the class OP...call it P2W...that is the concept. They can do too many things too well:

easy access to damage? yes
tanky by design: yes
cheap access to buffs: yes
cheap skills: yes
Good healing: yes

Essentially a class that by design will be significantly easier to play...let's be frank:~you can teach a gerbil to excel in PvP with a warden

DrSlaughtr · June 2021

Things changed with blackwood. Wardens are still meta for brawler types but a huge amount of players are bombing right now. It's absurd

nukk3r · June 2021

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

oh my gosh are we still debating how strong Wardens are?!?!?!? Stamden especially are grossly OP...call the class OP...call it P2W...that is the concept. They can do too many things too well:

easy access to damage? yes
tanky by design: yes
cheap access to buffs: yes
cheap skills: yes
Good healing: yes

Essentially a class that by design will be significantly easier to play...let's be frank:~you can teach a gerbil to excel in PvP with a warden

OP plays a stamden.

Jameson18 · June 2021

Go to Kristofereso's youtube channel and see how many stam wardens are in the "top 5" battle compilation videos. There's what? 95 videos?

Its all nightblades, stam sorcs, mag sorcs, stam and mag dk, and as of FoA, there was a lot of mag necro. There was a warden or two recently, but they're few and far between and mostly shown in a duo of some sort.

I'm not advocating one way or the other. I play/have every class stam and mag. Just calling a spade, a spade.

Greasytengu · June 2021

Jameson18 wrote: »

Go to Kristofereso's youtube channel and see how many stam wardens are in the "top 5" battle compilation videos. There's what? 95 videos?

Its all nightblades, stam sorcs, mag sorcs, stam and mag dk, and as of FoA, there was a lot of mag necro. There was a warden or two recently, but they're few and far between and mostly shown in a duo of some sort.

I'm not advocating one way or the other. I play/have every class stam and mag. Just calling a spade, a spade.

Warden has always been a 'jack of all trades but master of none' class. Its good at everything, but great at almost nothing.

Personally I think the warden toolkit is better with group play than it is with solo play, and people mistake its success in groups with it being overpowered.

nukk3r · June 2021

Jameson18 wrote: »

Go to Kristofereso's youtube channel and see how many stam wardens are in the "top 5" battle compilation videos. There's what? 95 videos?

Its all nightblades, stam sorcs, mag sorcs, stam and mag dk, and as of FoA, there was a lot of mag necro. There was a warden or two recently, but they're few and far between and mostly shown in a duo of some sort.

I'm not advocating one way or the other. I play/have every class stam and mag. Just calling a spade, a spade.

Kristofer doesn't tell us which criteria he uses for these Top 5 videos. Maybe he prefers gameplay videos of old classes.
IMO it's more entertaining to watch a nightblade killing 10 ppl, rather than a stamden kiting and healing for 5 minutes while running around a tree.

Casul · June 2021

nukk3r wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

Go to Kristofereso's youtube channel and see how many stam wardens are in the "top 5" battle compilation videos. There's what? 95 videos?

Its all nightblades, stam sorcs, mag sorcs, stam and mag dk, and as of FoA, there was a lot of mag necro. There was a warden or two recently, but they're few and far between and mostly shown in a duo of some sort.

I'm not advocating one way or the other. I play/have every class stam and mag. Just calling a spade, a spade.

Kristofer doesn't tell us which criteria he uses for these Top 5 videos. Maybe he prefers gameplay videos of old classes.
IMO it's more entertaining to watch a nightblade killing 10 ppl, rather than a stamden kiting and healing for 5 minutes while running around a tree.

I always figured his videos were based in entertainment value and strategy/skill of the clip.

Like the most recent had a guy magnum arrowing people off a cliff. That's not very skillful. But very strong strategy and entertaining.

ThePianist · June 2021

If you get killed by a Stamden in an open field, with no trees or rocks, you’re mediocre lol. Go around them, avoid them, don’t fight them, ect...pick your battles. Stamden is the king of tight corners and spaces. Just like how magsorc is the the king of wide open spaces.