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Does ZOS not play test mag builds in PvP?
Viewsfrom6ix
✭✭✭✭✭
Mag builds are seriously under performing compared to stam builds.
1. Light armor has the lowest armor rating
2. Light has penalties including one that takes extra martial damage.
3. Harder to hit 6.5k SD for procs.
4. Medium armor has ZERO penalties
EDIT: 5. Lack of weapon diversity. Mag only viable option is destro staff. Stam has 2h, dual wield and bow.
If you playing a mag build, you're basically handicapping yourself.
I'd say all stam class variants are better except maybe sorcerer.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, could something be done about this and not make this Elder Stamina Online?
Edited by Viewsfrom6ix on 12 June 2021 22:06 1. Light armor has the lowest armor rating
2. Light has penalties including one that takes extra martial damage.
3. Harder to hit 6.5k SD for procs.
4. Medium armor has ZERO penalties
EDIT: 5. Lack of weapon diversity. Mag only viable option is destro staff. Stam has 2h, dual wield and bow.
If you playing a mag build, you're basically handicapping yourself.
I'd say all stam class variants are better except maybe sorcerer.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, could something be done about this and not make this Elder Stamina Online?
15
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MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Melee mag can run DW or 2H with class skills.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”3 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭While I can agree with some of the mentioned points, the situation is not that bad.
Mag builds are all around doing just fine.0 -
milllaurie✭✭✭✭Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »Mag builds are seriously under performing compared to stam builds.
1. Light armor has the lowest armor rating
2. Light has penalties including one that takes extra martial damage.
3. Harder to hit 6.5k SD for procs.
4. Medium armor has ZERO penalties
EDIT: 5. Lack of weapon diversity. Mag only viable option is destro staff. Stam has 2h, dual wield and bow.
If you playing a mag build, you're basically handicapping yourself.
I'd say all stam class variants are better except maybe sorcerer.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, could something be done about this and not make this Elder Stamina Online?
Are we playing the same game? Because I surely see a lot of 2h/dw mag builds recently.
There is also heavy armor, have you ever tried it?1 -
Kaelthorn_Nightbloom✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Light armor is in a bad place. Sure you get the spell pen but good luck surviving 1vX long enough to use it. Even magsorc shield stacking suffers greatly due to the non-existent mitigation against martial attacks. In BGs, I recently switched to a 48k armor (58k w/ Pariah) + Temporal Guard and it's the only way I find it enjoyable currently.PC NA4 -
L_Nici✭✭✭✭✭
✭They obviously don't. If they would they would finally nerf them and finally end that broken Magicka groupplay where no Stamina can stand a chance ever.
Magicka is so broken, that it ruins the entire PvP since over a year, just because they group up like idiots, all run their stupid Rapid Regen and can never be killed. Unless you send in another Magicka Group doing the same thing.
Stamina might win a 1v1, but as soon as groups are involved, Stamina is screwed.Edited by L_Nici on 13 June 2021 11:49PC|EU1 -
Viewsfrom6ix✭✭✭✭✭milllaurie wrote: »Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »Mag builds are seriously under performing compared to stam builds.
1. Light armor has the lowest armor rating
2. Light has penalties including one that takes extra martial damage.
3. Harder to hit 6.5k SD for procs.
4. Medium armor has ZERO penalties
EDIT: 5. Lack of weapon diversity. Mag only viable option is destro staff. Stam has 2h, dual wield and bow.
If you playing a mag build, you're basically handicapping yourself.
I'd say all stam class variants are better except maybe sorcerer.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, could something be done about this and not make this Elder Stamina Online?
Are we playing the same game? Because I surely see a lot of 2h/dw mag builds recently.
There is also heavy armor, have you ever tried it?
My point isn't about heavy armor and you suggesting it just means light armor isn't as good. Heavy armor doesn't solve the problems that I mentioned about light vs medium.
I also haven't seen a single 2h/dw mag build in high MMR BGs.
Using melee weapons on mag builds takes away one major advantage that mag builds have which is their range. Then you're better off as stam...
I know the suggestions you guys make CAN work but given all things are equal the same suggestions will be better on stam.10 -
Kaelthorn_Nightbloom✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The problem is there's too many ways to increase your damage to ridiculous levels in this game. Light armor does nothing to mitigate martial attacks and very little against spell damage.PC NA1 -
Viewsfrom6ix✭✭✭✭✭They obviously don't. If they would they would finally nerf them and finally end that broken Magicka groupplay where no Stamina can stand a chance ever.
Magicka is so broken, that it ruins the entire PvP since over a year, just because they group up like idiots, all run their stupid Rapid Regen and can never be killed. Unless you send in another Magicka Group doing the same thing.
Stamina might win a 1v1, but as soon as groups are involved, Stamina is screwed.
I don't disagree healing is stronger on mag but healing means opportunity loss on damage. But a stam group with mag healer is just as strong if not stronger given my points about light armor.4 -
Kaelthorn_Nightbloom✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Here's some numbers to put things into perspective.
7 light:
Robe 1396
Hat 1221
Breeches 1221
Epaulets 1221
Shoes 1221
Gloves 698
Sash 523
Total: 7501
-7% martial attacks = 4.36% damage reduction
5 light 1 heavy 1 medium:
Cuirass 2772
Helmet 1823
Breeches 1221
Epaulets 1221
Shoes 1221
Gloves 698
Sash 523
Total: 9479
-5% martial attacks = 9.36% damage reduction
5 heavy 1 medium 1 light:
Cuirass 2772
Visage 2425
Greaves 2425
Pauldrons 2425
Sabatons 2425
Bracers 1042
Sash 523
Total: 14037
-1% martial attacks = 20.26% damage reductionPC NA4 -
Kaelthorn_Nightbloom✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Also don't forget that 5x light is pretty much required or you must use The Atronach to offset the loss in magicka recovery.PC NA5 -
Sagetim✭✭✭They have killed the magic class. Magic NB especially. try to make a hard hitting mag NB and all someone has to do is breathe on you and you die. Hate the champ system. The old system was way more viableEdited by Sagetim on 13 June 2021 13:190
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Kaelthorn_Nightbloom✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SkaraMinoc wrote: »7 light:
Robe 1396
Hat 1221
Breeches 1221
Epaulets 1221
Shoes 1221
Gloves 698
Sash 523
Total: 7501
-7% martial attacks = 4.36% damage reduction
Never in any mmo have I ever seen cloth/light armor do so little mitigation.PC NA1 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I run dw on magplar and it's great, the extra pen from maces really make a difference.
Light armor defo could use some fine tuning, I'm usually running at least 3 or 4 heavy on most mag builds, otherwise martial dmg incoming gets too much.1 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭They have killed the magic class. Magic NB especially. try to make a hard hitting mag NB and all someone has to do is breathe on you and you die. Hate the champ system. The old system was way more viable
Dont forget magdk.
yeah sure there are some nutty builds out there but theres alls that there is. MagDK sustain was already trash as it is. No versatility left.Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.5 -
milllaurie✭✭✭✭Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »milllaurie wrote: »Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »Mag builds are seriously under performing compared to stam builds.
1. Light armor has the lowest armor rating
2. Light has penalties including one that takes extra martial damage.
3. Harder to hit 6.5k SD for procs.
4. Medium armor has ZERO penalties
EDIT: 5. Lack of weapon diversity. Mag only viable option is destro staff. Stam has 2h, dual wield and bow.
If you playing a mag build, you're basically handicapping yourself.
I'd say all stam class variants are better except maybe sorcerer.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, could something be done about this and not make this Elder Stamina Online?
Are we playing the same game? Because I surely see a lot of 2h/dw mag builds recently.
There is also heavy armor, have you ever tried it?
My point isn't about heavy armor and you suggesting it just means light armor isn't as good. Heavy armor doesn't solve the problems that I mentioned about light vs medium.
I also haven't seen a single 2h/dw mag build in high MMR BGs.
Using melee weapons on mag builds takes away one major advantage that mag builds have which is their range. Then you're better off as stam...
I know the suggestions you guys make CAN work but given all things are equal the same suggestions will be better on stam.
Okay so you want both: RANGE AND MARTIAL MITIGATION?
I mean I get your point, but heavy is clunky and slow while speed is by far the best damage mitigation in pvp.0 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »Mag builds are seriously under performing compared to stam builds.
1. Light armor has the lowest armor rating
2. Light has penalties including one that takes extra martial damage.
3. Harder to hit 6.5k SD for procs.
4. Medium armor has ZERO penalties
EDIT: 5. Lack of weapon diversity. Mag only viable option is destro staff. Stam has 2h, dual wield and bow.
If you playing a mag build, you're basically handicapping yourself.
I'd say all stam class variants are better except maybe sorcerer.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, could something be done about this and not make this Elder Stamina Online?
So cute - you think ZOS actually plays PvP how adorable ! 😂6 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »milllaurie wrote: »Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »Mag builds are seriously under performing compared to stam builds.
1. Light armor has the lowest armor rating
2. Light has penalties including one that takes extra martial damage.
3. Harder to hit 6.5k SD for procs.
4. Medium armor has ZERO penalties
EDIT: 5. Lack of weapon diversity. Mag only viable option is destro staff. Stam has 2h, dual wield and bow.
If you playing a mag build, you're basically handicapping yourself.
I'd say all stam class variants are better except maybe sorcerer.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, could something be done about this and not make this Elder Stamina Online?
Are we playing the same game? Because I surely see a lot of 2h/dw mag builds recently.
There is also heavy armor, have you ever tried it?
Using melee weapons on mag builds takes away one major advantage that mag builds have which is their range. Then you're better off as stam...
What about mag dks?1 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »They obviously don't. If they would they would finally nerf them and finally end that broken Magicka groupplay where no Stamina can stand a chance ever.
Magicka is so broken, that it ruins the entire PvP since over a year, just because they group up like idiots, all run their stupid Rapid Regen and can never be killed. Unless you send in another Magicka Group doing the same thing.
Stamina might win a 1v1, but as soon as groups are involved, Stamina is screwed.
I don't disagree healing is stronger on mag but healing means opportunity loss on damage. But a stam group with mag healer is just as strong if not stronger given my points about light armor.
There is no opportunity loss when you are grouped up correctly.
Individually stam classes are better than mag, but mag classes are more flexible and have more options when grouping. Apple and oranges, mag or stam doesn't really matter that much in a good pvp group. And it is a group pvp game after all.
0 -
Viewsfrom6ix✭✭✭✭✭Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »They obviously don't. If they would they would finally nerf them and finally end that broken Magicka groupplay where no Stamina can stand a chance ever.
Magicka is so broken, that it ruins the entire PvP since over a year, just because they group up like idiots, all run their stupid Rapid Regen and can never be killed. Unless you send in another Magicka Group doing the same thing.
Stamina might win a 1v1, but as soon as groups are involved, Stamina is screwed.
I don't disagree healing is stronger on mag but healing means opportunity loss on damage. But a stam group with mag healer is just as strong if not stronger given my points about light armor.
There is no opportunity loss when you are grouped up correctly.
Individually stam classes are better than mag, but mag classes are more flexible and have more options when grouping. Apple and oranges, mag or stam doesn't really matter that much in a good pvp group. And it is a group pvp game after all.
It can be a group pvp game but there a lot of opportunities it isn't. You're saying stam and mag does not matter in group but small scale and 1v1 exist and light armor users are at a disadvantage like you admitted.
So why does light armor users have to be a healer or in a cooperative group to be competitive with medium armor users?4 -
Viewsfrom6ix✭✭✭✭✭Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »milllaurie wrote: »Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »Mag builds are seriously under performing compared to stam builds.
1. Light armor has the lowest armor rating
2. Light has penalties including one that takes extra martial damage.
3. Harder to hit 6.5k SD for procs.
4. Medium armor has ZERO penalties
EDIT: 5. Lack of weapon diversity. Mag only viable option is destro staff. Stam has 2h, dual wield and bow.
If you playing a mag build, you're basically handicapping yourself.
I'd say all stam class variants are better except maybe sorcerer.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, could something be done about this and not make this Elder Stamina Online?
Are we playing the same game? Because I surely see a lot of 2h/dw mag builds recently.
There is also heavy armor, have you ever tried it?
Using melee weapons on mag builds takes away one major advantage that mag builds have which is their range. Then you're better off as stam...
What about mag dks?
Yeah, magdks are playing PvP in nightmare mode and probably masochists.
Edited by Viewsfrom6ix on 14 June 2021 03:226 -
Viewsfrom6ix✭✭✭✭✭Shokasegambit1 wrote: »Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »Mag builds are seriously under performing compared to stam builds.
1. Light armor has the lowest armor rating
2. Light has penalties including one that takes extra martial damage.
3. Harder to hit 6.5k SD for procs.
4. Medium armor has ZERO penalties
EDIT: 5. Lack of weapon diversity. Mag only viable option is destro staff. Stam has 2h, dual wield and bow.
If you playing a mag build, you're basically handicapping yourself.
I'd say all stam class variants are better except maybe sorcerer.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, could something be done about this and not make this Elder Stamina Online?
So cute - you think ZOS actually plays PvP how adorable ! 😂
Cute and adorable
Not even my wife calls me those. 0 -
JayKwellen✭✭✭✭✭Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »They obviously don't. If they would they would finally nerf them and finally end that broken Magicka groupplay where no Stamina can stand a chance ever.
Magicka is so broken, that it ruins the entire PvP since over a year, just because they group up like idiots, all run their stupid Rapid Regen and can never be killed. Unless you send in another Magicka Group doing the same thing.
Stamina might win a 1v1, but as soon as groups are involved, Stamina is screwed.
I don't disagree healing is stronger on mag but healing means opportunity loss on damage. But a stam group with mag healer is just as strong if not stronger given my points about light armor.
There is no opportunity loss when you are grouped up correctly.
Individually stam classes are better than mag, but mag classes are more flexible and have more options when grouping. Apple and oranges, mag or stam doesn't really matter that much in a good pvp group. And it is a group pvp game after all.
It can be a group pvp game but there a lot of opportunities it isn't. You're saying stam and mag does not matter in group but small scale and 1v1 exist and light armor users are at a disadvantage like you admitted.
So why does light armor users have to be a healer or in a cooperative group to be competitive with medium armor users?
Unfortunately that's just the way it is. Stam will always have the advantage in 1v1, and in some cases small scale too, because in most cases they intrinsically have much better survivability thanks to higher mitigation (from both armor and dodge rolling), better single target damage, guaranteed self-healing. They can also stack higher damage and float lower stam pools because they have a much easier time with recovery.
On the other hand there's a reason mag will always dominate in comp, and that's because they offer tremendously more utility, healing, and AOE than stam ever could. Only stamden, and in some select cases stamsorc, and possibly a specific stamcro build if you wanna get fancy, serve much purpose in a group.
If you ask why magicka only comes out on top in cooperative play, you have to also ask why stamina only comes out on top in solo play. If you want to buff magicka so that's its better for solo/small scale, then you'll have to also buff stamina so it's better for groups, otherwise you're only gonna be making magicka the undisputed king.0 -
Andre_Noir✭✭✭✭JayKwellen wrote: »Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »They obviously don't. If they would they would finally nerf them and finally end that broken Magicka groupplay where no Stamina can stand a chance ever.
Magicka is so broken, that it ruins the entire PvP since over a year, just because they group up like idiots, all run their stupid Rapid Regen and can never be killed. Unless you send in another Magicka Group doing the same thing.
Stamina might win a 1v1, but as soon as groups are involved, Stamina is screwed.
I don't disagree healing is stronger on mag but healing means opportunity loss on damage. But a stam group with mag healer is just as strong if not stronger given my points about light armor.
There is no opportunity loss when you are grouped up correctly.
Individually stam classes are better than mag, but mag classes are more flexible and have more options when grouping. Apple and oranges, mag or stam doesn't really matter that much in a good pvp group. And it is a group pvp game after all.
It can be a group pvp game but there a lot of opportunities it isn't. You're saying stam and mag does not matter in group but small scale and 1v1 exist and light armor users are at a disadvantage like you admitted.
So why does light armor users have to be a healer or in a cooperative group to be competitive with medium armor users?
Unfortunately that's just the way it is. Stam will always have the advantage in 1v1, and in some cases small scale too, because in most cases they intrinsically have much better survivability thanks to higher mitigation (from both armor and dodge rolling), better single target damage, guaranteed self-healing. They can also stack higher damage and float lower stam pools because they have a much easier time with recovery.
On the other hand there's a reason mag will always dominate in comp, and that's because they offer tremendously more utility, healing, and AOE than stam ever could. Only stamden, and in some select cases stamsorc, and possibly a specific stamcro build if you wanna get fancy, serve much purpose in a group.
If you ask why magicka only comes out on top in cooperative play, you have to also ask why stamina only comes out on top in solo play. If you want to buff magicka so that's its better for solo/small scale, then you'll have to also buff stamina so it's better for groups, otherwise you're only gonna be making magicka the undisputed king.
It's a demagogy. Support it's entire different role and has nothing with mDD and there enough supportive sets and skills for stamina. But why bother if you can just stack WD and yolo ?0 -
JayKwellen✭✭✭✭✭Andre_Noir wrote: »It's a demagogy. Support it's entire different role and has nothing with mDD and there enough supportive sets and skills for stamina. But why bother if you can just stack WD and yolo ?
I'd say mag easily wins out on overall damage too when the number of enemies increases. With one smash + graverobber and some impulse spam I can do more damage in a GCD to an entire group of enemies than most stamina characters could ever dream of. Throw in a couple synergies (all the best ones being magic damage, of course) and the gap only widens. I can do that while throwing down respectable amounts of healing for my whole group, while also being able to provide further support too if necessary. All at the same time. The support sets and skills available to stamina pale in comparison to what any mag character can easily bring to a group with only minimal effort.0 -
Baphomet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Numbers or not, I just know that arrow spray hits harder than crystal frags this patch.
- The Psijic Order
- TKO
- Dominant Dominion
- The Noore1 -
irstarkey57✭✭✭✭Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »milllaurie wrote: »Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »Mag builds are seriously under performing compared to stam builds.
1. Light armor has the lowest armor rating
2. Light has penalties including one that takes extra martial damage.
3. Harder to hit 6.5k SD for procs.
4. Medium armor has ZERO penalties
EDIT: 5. Lack of weapon diversity. Mag only viable option is destro staff. Stam has 2h, dual wield and bow.
If you playing a mag build, you're basically handicapping yourself.
I'd say all stam class variants are better except maybe sorcerer.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, could something be done about this and not make this Elder Stamina Online?
Are we playing the same game? Because I surely see a lot of 2h/dw mag builds recently.
There is also heavy armor, have you ever tried it?
Using melee weapons on mag builds takes away one major advantage that mag builds have which is their range. Then you're better off as stam...
What about mag dks?
Pretty much have to have ele drain imo. And either resto or what I use, snb. I’ve seen people run a maul. It just feels like ***. LA from it is a joke. The only range we have is basically and inferno light or hvy. Maybe if there was a magicka morph of rally...then we’d be talkin.1 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭The issue is that medium synergizes well all around. More mitigation than light, more speed than light, more healing than light (weapon dmg affects stam heals unlike spell pen), lower cost dodgerolls (4% per medium piece vs 3% per light piece) that also give 2% reduced aoe dmg per medium piece than light, medium bonuses are more useful (4/5- reduce sneak cost is not particularly useful) than light (3/5- reduced bash cost and reduced sneak speed penalty) but also don't come with the penalties for some reason.
In 7 light with the armor cp and major resolve up you sit at 15180 phys resist or 23% dmg reduction. With the pen cp, 2H sharpened maul with pierce armor you get 16198 phys pen. That's easy enough to get, now that you penned completely you do an extra 7% more phys dmg because why not.
But at least light armor has alot of spell resist to make it much better against magicka builds right? Not really, in 7 medium with the armor cp and major resolve you get 18878 (28%) sp resist, only 1384(2%) less than 7 light. But 7 med does get you 3698 (5%) more phys resist, and of course without the extra 7% more phys dmg taken.
But even the pen is partially offset by stamina's easy access to minor fracture (3kpen or the equivalent of wearing 3 light armor pieces) by it being attached to both pierce armor and the sundered status effect, meanwhile mag gets magickasteal of its procced status effect which is basically redundant because most run elemental drain due to the fact that only magblades (mark) and magdens (deep fissure) have any other way of getting major fracture and nobody besides magplars running PotL (stam morph) have access to minor fracture. I left magcro's unnerving boneyard morph (maj fracture instead of self synergy) out because nobody besides ball groups run with it.
Major Evasion is amazing now that there is no generic cp for dmg reduction, and is worth double the dmg reduction of that cp. Coupled with the 10% aoe dmg reduction if wearing 5 medium after dodgeroll and you are set. It is very effective against both stam and magdens reducing dawnbreaker and sub assult/deep fissure. Even more effective against both stam and magplars reducing their spammable, ults, and pretty much every other mag used offensive ability. Effective against both stam and magcros reducing dawnbreaker/colossus, magcro bombing, and blastbones. Not very effective against stam and magdk's reducing noxious breath/engulfing flames and leap. Pretty much useless against nbs and sorcs except for magblade bombers.6 -
neferpitou73✭✭✭✭✭
✭The title has 5 extra words in it. Given all the crazy stuff they've done the last few patches, I'm pretty sure the answer to both phrasings is "Yes"Edited by neferpitou73 on 14 June 2021 16:040
